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Should US start waves of EMP attacks on Russia and China until they cease misinformation campaign?
in Politics

By piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
Should the US initiate a defensive maneuver to stop the disinformation campaigns that China and Russia have launched on the US? Perhaps increase the severity of these attacks the longer the disinformation attacks are waged on the US. EMP stands for "electromagnetic pusle". And EMP attack is a purposely sent surge of energy that an energy grid cannot handle and is fried. These surges can take out massive generators that serve entire cities. These generators can take years to be built. 
Josh_Drake
  1. Live Poll

    Attack China and Russia with EMP attacks?

    6 votes
    1. Yes. They initiated attacks on the US first.
      16.67%
    2. No. It would only exacerbate ana already bad situation.
      83.33%



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Arguments

  • Absolutely not. Doing so would only work to justify the attacks or worse, escalate them.

    Here is the thing, I can't say I have seen these disinformation campaigns, and I question the effectiveness of these actions anyways.

    The rules of warfare make it clear, we can not fight this with anything else except minimum force. In practice, this means doing it back.
    piloteer
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    edited April 23
    @Happy_Killbot

    We could potentially target the sites where the disinformation campaigns are being carried out. I can't deny that most cyber security specialists also question the effectiveness of the disinformation campaigns, but the plain and simple fact that they are being done with malicious intentions with the hope of influencing global diplomacy, it can be considered an act of war. Retaliatory actions in war is not unethical, especially since China and Russia have fired the first shot in a cyber war. They are using a high tech form of psychological warfare. There is evidence their tactic is to try and sow disunity among various social groups, and they propagate conspiracy theories to make groups feel targeted by other groups.   

     There is plenty of evidence of these disinformation campaigns. You have seen them, you probably just haven't realized it. They are purposely made to look like genuine US citizens who are just sharing their ideas across social media platforms. But the truth is, they are fake social media identities that are made in Russian and Chinese cyber facilities. There was a robot on DI about a year ago. I think it made one post, but the site spotted it and warned that it was a troll bot. Then the bot tried to refute the claim that it was a bot, and then it said goodbye and closed its account. The NSA has a lot of literature on the existence of Russian, Chinese, and even Iranian disinformation campaigns that have circumvented western media outlets.          
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    Who would think lobbing nukes at other countries over disinformation would be a good idea?
    DavidKashlinskyJosh_Drake
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    CYDdharta said:
    Who would think lobbing nukes at other countries over disinformation would be a good idea?
    I'm game!!! There's no rules in war. 
    Josh_Drake
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    piloteer said:

    I'm game!!! There's no rules in war. 

    True, but is spreading disinformation an act of war?
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @CYDdharta

    Yes it is. Psycological warfare is still warfare. The purpose of the disinformation campaigns is not to play a nice natured joke on America, but to spread fear and disunity among the population and to make people lose confidence in our sources of information and maybe even our governmental system altogether. Whether it actually works or not is of no value so long as the intent is present, and it is. It is an act of war and all options should be kept on the table and ready to use if need be.   
    Josh_Drake
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    piloteer said:
    @CYDdharta

    Yes it is. Psycological warfare is still warfare. The purpose of the disinformation campaigns is not to play a nice natured joke on America, but to spread fear and disunity among the population and to make people lose confidence in our sources of information and maybe even our governmental system altogether. Whether it actually works or not is of no value so long as the intent is present, and it is. It is an act of war and all options should be kept on the table and ready to use if need be.   

    That's bad news for political candidates ... and most journalists.
    Josh_Drake
  • No America should for once mind it’s own business. EMP attacks on other nations would only make the world a more dangerous place. It’s important that tensions do not rise between America and Russia or China. You could also say that America has done the same thing. America has contributed heavily to theory’s about China creating the corona virus without any proof. America needs to put its ego aside and promote world piece and not war.



    Josh_Drake
  • TKDBTKDB 599 Pts
    edited April 23
    NO.

    "Should US start waves of EMP attacks on Russia and China until they cease misinformation campaign?"


    But it is amazing how some countries, like to play games with the United States?

    From Yahoo News:

    "Iran, North Korea, Russia: America's adversaries emboldened to flex their muscles amid coronavirus"

    Kim Hjelmgaard and Tom Vanden Brook, USA TODAY
    USA TODAYApril 23, 2020, 5:46 AM EDT

    "A dozen Iranian speed boats brazenly swarm U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf. A Russian fighter jet buzzes a U.S. Navy surveillance plane flying over the Mediterranean Sea. North Korea fires a barrage of missiles launched from the air and ground. 

    All the incidents took place in mid-April. All were mounted by some of America's top adversaries. As coronavirus stalks the globe, sapping attention, budgets and government personnel at home and abroad, U.S. adversaries from Moscow to Pyongyang are flexing their muscles and testing U.S. resolve.

    U.S. defense and national security officials said that although America remains on guard for potential threats as it works to overcome the coronavirus in a world of unpredictability, they have not detected extraordinary reasons to sound the alarm. "

    "President Donald Trump sent out a warning Wednesday on Twitter: "I have instructed the United States Navy to shoot down and destroy any and all Iranian gunboats if they harass our ships at sea." He offered no additional context. 

    Defense Secretary Mark Esper told NBC's "Today" last week that "it's hard to say" whether the Iranian and Russian episodes reflected efforts to probe for U.S. vulnerability amid the COVID-19 pandemic that has sickened more than 826,000 Americans.

    The Defense Department, he said, considered "this a normal week."

    No Americans were killed or injured as a result of the Iranian, Russian and North Korean actions. National security analysts said that the timing of these incidents may not be coincidental but that there is little evidence that America's global opponents are capitalizing on conditions created by the pandemic. 

    America's enemies "aren't necessarily doing anything different or unusual because of coronavirus," said Joseph Cirincione, president of Ploughshares Fund, a Washington-based global security foundation. "And this thing cuts both ways: All militaries are concerned about others' perception of them during a time of crisis. 

    "Is the timing suspicious? Maybe. Internal dynamics can also explain these incidents."

    To be sure, provocations from U.S. foes and rivals are not new. 

    On April 15, when Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy boats darted past U.S. warships conducting exercises in international waters in the northern Persian Gulf it was the latest example of routine Iranian harassment toward U.S. vessels that has intensified since the Trump administration exited a nuclear deal with Tehran. "


    The below is from the Commentary section of the same article:

    "Distraction is the time our adversaries will exploit. Read the Art of Warfare by Sun Tzu. "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." THE ART OF WAR is an ancient Chinese military treatise attributed to Sun Tzu, a high-ranking military general, strategist and tactician."

    "The text is composed of 13 chapters, each of which is devoted to one aspect of warfare. It is commonly known to be the definitive work on military strategy and tactics of its time. It has been the most famous and influential of China's Seven Military Classics, and "for the last two thousand years it remained the most important military treatise in Asia, where even the common people knew it by name." 

    "It has had an influence on Eastern and Western military thinking, business tactics, legal strategy and beyond."

    Josh_Drake
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @CYDdharta

    It is bad news for everybody who lives in the US, so this threat must be confronted head on with a mentality of letting our adversaries know that we are willing to use far more destructive tactics, and even absurdly over the top methods to react to this threat.  
    Josh_Drake
  • @piloteer ;

    Can you show me some examples?

    I can find plenty of sources saying this is happening, but no specifics. I don't use social media so I actually don't think I have seen any of these.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/486072-report-finds-that-russian-disinformation-efforts-targeting-2020

    Specific examples may be very difficult to show you because the fake identities are very convincing, and it would be difficult to differentiate a real one from a fake one. It's worth noting that you just claimed that you don't use social media on a social media site. DI is a social media site. We can just hide our true identities because we probably don't want our friends and family to know what we say here, or we think revealing our identity gives potential opponents an advantage. But DI is a social media site.    
  • @piloteer ;
    If we can't identify a single specific example then how are we supposed to make this claim? If they are not actively exposing profiles, then there is still the possibility that all of this misinformation and political BS is being done by US citizens. What is the metric then for determining who is and isn't a Russian influencer?

    I think it is a stretch to call DI social media, at least it definitely isn't in the same category as actual social networking sites like Facebook of LinkedIn. Personally, I would just call it an internet forum.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Are you claiming that if we can't see it, then how can we prove it exists? How can you prove oxygen is real? The NSA has many different examples of Russian and Chinese cyber facilities that are using a high tech expertise to circumvent several different social media forums including the ones you have mentioned, and those forums themselves have acknowledged that.  

    https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-deletes-dozens-of-fake-acc

    https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-pulls-down-more-fake-accounts-tied-to-russia/


    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/21/tech/russia-instagram-accounts-2020-election/index.html

    It would seem to me that if Facebook itself admits and tries to find and delete these "unconfirmed" Russian accounts, that should suffice as valid evidence for most.  


  • @piloteer ;
    What I'm arguing here is that if there is no way to test if any given account is fake or not then we can not say automatically that these are Russian fakes. For example, we can test for the presence of oxygen by lighting a match. What I'm saying is how do you test for the presence of Russians?

    first link is 404

    CNN says: "Facebook said Monday those behind the operation had taken steps to conceal their identities and locations. The company did not publicly say how it had determined the accounts were linked to the Internet Research Agency but said it had shared details with law enforcement."

    This is what I am asking. What is in that black box?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    If we can confirm that those fake identities are fake in the first place, it wouldn't be a very effective disinformation campaign. There's no way WE, the normal everyday user can confirm fake social media accounts. But there are ways the sites themselves can find out, and cyber security specialists in the NSA can find out. I have no access to how that is done, but that in and of itself does not serve as evidence of the non-existence of Russian and Chinese cyber facilities that make the fake accounts, and the non-existence of the fake accounts. 

      https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/12/12/facebook-disinformation-spread-2020-election-how-stop/4400150002/
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    edited April 24
    @piloteer ;

    It is bad news for everybody who lives in the US, so this threat must be confronted head on with a mentality of letting our adversaries know that we are willing to use far more destructive tactics, and even absurdly over the top methods to react to this threat.  

    So you're saying it's open season on politicians and journalists?

  • @piloteer ;

    I am not making an argument that such agencies don't  exist, that is self evident. What I am making a case against is the how do we know who is who?

    For example, suppose a real person creates a Facebook account and immediately gets political and just happens to support all the things that the Russians want. How do you know he is or is not real?

    From another perspective, suppose there is a certain narrative that these agencies want to fight against. Would they not then be able to label real people as fake? The lack of accountability here is what I find concerning. How can the public verify the integrity of such institutions?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    CYDdharta said:
    @piloteer ;

    It is bad news for everybody who lives in the US, so this threat must be confronted head on with a mentality of letting our adversaries know that we are willing to use far more destructive tactics, and even absurdly over the top methods to react to this threat.  

    So you're saying it's open season on politicians and journalists?

    Uuuummm, no. I don't know where or how you got that assessment of that from my arguments. We can deal with them later. I'm saying that Russia and China have engaged in acts of war and we must respond in kind.   
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    It matters not to know who is who, what matters is shutting down the facilities that construct the threats. As far as how social media sites and government security specialists know who is who is not something I'm aware of and it may possibly be something they do not want to be very forthcoming about because it may compromise their ability to find out. As far as the common social media user goes, we have no way of knowing who is who. That is why this threat may be so dangerous to our democracy.

     If and when the facilities are shut down and the troll bots and fake social media accounts go away, then we as the public will know who was fake. I can't think of any instances of people being labeled as fake by agencies with political agendas, but if we do not take out the buildings that facilitates the disinformation campaigns. If they remain, then anybody could potentially be labeled as fake. If they are taken out, then they wouldn't have the ability to create the fake accounts and identities, then these agencies couldn't go around accusing people of being fake (That kinda sounds like a fringe conspiracy paranoia to me though) .    
  • @piloteer ;
    The "Facilities" could be independent people working in many locations operating under many different profiles. They could be anywhere in the world because what they are doing requires only a computer and an internet connection. If you are thinking this is all being accomplished from some building somewhere in Russia, you are almost certainly wrong.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    edited April 25
    @Happy_Killbot

    Actually, I wouldn't be wrong in claiming that these disinformation campaigns are being run out of facilities funded by the Russian and Chinese governments. Not to say there aren't lone wolf cyber attacks mounted against the US, but there is certainly a concerted effort from Russia and China, and they  are conceived by, funded by, and carried out by the government's of Russia and China. The IRA(internet research center)  in Moscow is one of the facilities where these acts of war are carried out. It is a troll farm, and if the troll that was on DI was from Russia, there's a good chance it was programmed at this facility. If you are trying to make it seem like these attacks are just a bunch of savvy computer geeks who hate America, you're wrong. They are a product of the Russian and Chinese governments. These attacks are a concerted effort on the part of the governments of those countries. They are acts of war.    

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency


  • @piloteer ;

    The page says that Many of them work remotely:

    "More than 1,000 paid bloggers and commenters reportedly worked only in a single building at Savushkina Street in 2015.[32] Many other employees work remotely. According to BuzzFeed News, more than 600 people were generally employed in the trolls' office earlier, in June 2014.[3] Each commentator has a daily quota of 100 comments"

    Of course, much of their work is internal to Russia and Russian politics.

    When Russia interfered in the 2016 election, they formed campaigns and rallies in the US and met with people running the Trump campaign.

    I'm not talking about "lone wolf cyber attacks" Think more like Russian spies, that is people deliberately put here in the US to be people.

    The point is, the profiles could be real people who are also spies. How do you know who is who?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Whether they work in a stationary facility, or work remotely, they answer to the same people who could be "incentivized" to shut down production. When production is put to rest, then we can make an objective assessment of "who is who". If there are spies, they should be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. There have been Russian spies who have been apprehended who are known Russian nationals, and who have ties to American political groups. They have the right to express their feelings to whoever they want, but if they are found to be committing espionage, they should be prosecuted.

    The fact still remains that if the disinformation campaign is allowed to continue, the risk of disunity and paranoia is very high, and that needs to be addressed in a swift and objective manner. If we are afraid of knowing "who is who", just sitting back and watching it happen isn't going to give to of any value to anybody. Are we really just going to sit back and be victims to an international crime, or will we address this threat to our democracy with resilience?   

    They want us to hate and fear each other, but I just don't have the time to have to deal with this right now, so lets get this neutralized now.              
    Josh_Drake
  • piloteer said:
    @Happy_Killbot

    Whether they work in a stationary facility, or work remotely, they answer to the same people who could be "incentivized" to shut down production. When production is put to rest, then we can make an objective assessment of "who is who". If there are spies, they should be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. There have been Russian spies who have been apprehended who are known Russian nationals, and who have ties to American political groups. They have the right to express their feelings to whoever they want, but if they are found to be committing espionage, they should be prosecuted.

    The fact still remains that if the disinformation campaign is allowed to continue, the risk of disunity and paranoia is very high, and that needs to be addressed in a swift and objective manner. If we are afraid of knowing "who is who", just sitting back and watching it happen isn't going to give to of any value to anybody. Are we really just going to sit back and be victims to an international crime, or will we address this threat to our democracy with resilience?   

    They want us to hate and fear each other, but I just don't have the time to have to deal with this right now, so lets get this neutralized now.              
    Why would I die for a government that wants me to die for the line?
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    piloteer said:
    CYDdharta said:
    @piloteer ;

    It is bad news for everybody who lives in the US, so this threat must be confronted head on with a mentality of letting our adversaries know that we are willing to use far more destructive tactics, and even absurdly over the top methods to react to this threat.  

    So you're saying it's open season on politicians and journalists?

    Uuuummm, no. I don't know where or how you got that assessment of that from my arguments. We can deal with them later. I'm saying that Russia and China have engaged in acts of war and we must respond in kind.   

    Uuummmmm, it was from your first reply in this thread;
    We could potentially target the sites where the disinformation campaigns are being carried out.
    There are no greater disinformation campaigns being carried out in this country than those conducted by political campaigns and the media that parrots their lies.  Russia and China have NOTHING on them. 
    piloteer
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @CYDdharta

    It should have been obvious that I was referring to the disinformation campaigns being conducted by Russia and China on the US. At no point did mention targeting journalists or politicians because that would be highly unethical. If you can find a post before this one where I even remotely mentioned targeting journalists, you are welcome to try and find my post that says that.. Other than that, this discussion has nothing to do with shutting down journalism, or targeting American politicians. Your idea of what constitutes an act of war is obviously very different than mine, and it seems it would better suit you to start your own discussion regarding your seething hatred for journalism and politicians. This is not a discussion about journalism or politicians, this is a call to arms to combat a clear and present threat to our democracy.       
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    piloteer said:
    @Happy_Killbot

    Whether they work in a stationary facility, or work remotely, they answer to the same people who could be "incentivized" to shut down production. When production is put to rest, then we can make an objective assessment of "who is who". If there are spies, they should be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. There have been Russian spies who have been apprehended who are known Russian nationals, and who have ties to American political groups. They have the right to express their feelings to whoever they want, but if they are found to be committing espionage, they should be prosecuted.

    The fact still remains that if the disinformation campaign is allowed to continue, the risk of disunity and paranoia is very high, and that needs to be addressed in a swift and objective manner. If we are afraid of knowing "who is who", just sitting back and watching it happen isn't going to give to of any value to anybody. Are we really just going to sit back and be victims to an international crime, or will we address this threat to our democracy with resilience?   

    They want us to hate and fear each other, but I just don't have the time to have to deal with this right now, so lets get this neutralized now.              
    Why would I die for a government that wants me to die for the line?
    At no point was I asking anybody to lay their life on the line for this cause. An EMP attack can be done remotely and has no need for any personal to be on the front lines. We can all just stay at home and watch our cat videos on YouTube while this is going on. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    piloteer said:
    @CYDdharta

    It should have been obvious that I was referring to the disinformation campaigns being conducted by Russia and China on the US. At no point did mention targeting journalists or politicians because that would be highly unethical. If you can find a post before this one where I even remotely mentioned targeting journalists, you are welcome to try and find my post that says that.. Other than that, this discussion has nothing to do with shutting down journalism, or targeting American politicians. Your idea of what constitutes an act of war is obviously very different than mine, and it seems it would better suit you to start your own discussion regarding your seething hatred for journalism and politicians. This is not a discussion about journalism or politicians, this is a call to arms to combat a clear and present threat to our democracy.       

    You said you considered disinformation campaigns to be acts of war.  Aside from the Trump-Russian collusion hoax, there are no greater disinformation campaigns than political campaigns; ergo, by your reasoning, it's open season on political candidates and the journalists who spread their disinformation.  There is nothing clear nor present about foreign interference in our election, but it is undeniable that politicians engage in disinformation campaigns.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1270 Pts
    piloteer said:

    At no point was I asking anybody to lay their life on the line for this cause. An EMP attack can be done remotely and has no need for any personal to be on the front lines. We can all just stay at home and watch our cat videos on YouTube while this is going on. 

    ...until Russia and China decide to respond to our nuclear first strike with a retaliatory nuclear strike of their own.
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    CYDdharta said:
    piloteer said:

    At no point was I asking anybody to lay their life on the line for this cause. An EMP attack can be done remotely and has no need for any personal to be on the front lines. We can all just stay at home and watch our cat videos on YouTube while this is going on. 

    ...until Russia and China decide to respond to our nuclear first strike with a retaliatory nuclear strike of their own.
    That does not seem to be a valid argument. What if Russia marches into Alaska and reclaims it as their own, should we let them because they might launch a retaliatory nuclear strike? When we are in a state of war, we may sometimes have to do things that are warlike. Remember, they attacked us first.  
    Josh_Drake
  • Josh_DrakeJosh_Drake 79 Pts
    edited May 5
    @piloteer The hypothetical 'Russian ground invasion' won't happen, and the fearmongering over Russians in general is counterproductive. Russians are not the epitome of evil, and attempting to portray Russians as evil to get us involved in another war to distract from the more tangible issues at hand is not a sacrifice that should be forced on others.
    piloteer
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Josh_Drake

    The vast majority of Russians are good people I'm sure, just as the vast majority of most countries are. Their governments are doing malicious and evil things that adds up to nothing less than acts of war. However good the people of Russia may be, it was them who allowed an evil tyrannical government come into power in their country. It would be evil of us to let us be swayed by tyrannical foreign agents.  
    Josh_Drake
  • Josh_DrakeJosh_Drake 79 Pts
    edited May 6
    Blaming Russians on their form of government while pretending to 'sympathize' with them is 'argumentative performatism', known as the act of pretending to make concessions to the third parties (the Russians in this case) involved in an argument, when in fact you are attempting an argument to moderation. This is also a form of doublespeak. If you actually sympathized with them, you would be against EMP attacks against the Russian government.

    Here is an article regarding argument to moderation:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation
  • piloteerpiloteer 738 Pts
    @Josh_Drake

    Thanks for the article. Now back to the topic at hand. The Russian people are the ones who allowed their government to take control of that country. Sothe Russian people are jist as guilty as the Russian government. They are ALL our enemies.  
  • @Happy_Killbot
    Though I cannot provide any links, I have indeed seen it happen on sites such as Twitter and Instagram. At this point, it’s usually pretty easy to find a bot or fake account that is being used to push a narrative. 
    The accounts tend to either have a really strange name, or a name that is just an almost random seeming combination of words, letters, or numbers. They also don’t tend to have a profile pic, any useful personal information or other Social Media account attached, and all of their posts, comments, tweets, and replies tend to be about one specific topic or similar topics.
    piloteer
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
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