Did you know that God will (eventually) save every being? (2)

Jern

@Dee. 

***No , it’s not it’s two totally different things 

they both have a form of believe in it without seeing

***I do, going on the fact I’m healthy and fit I have a reasonable expectation of going to  

yes you expect and also believe it's going to happen

***You have taken the religious definition of faith and misapplied to one having a confidence or trust in something being possible 

Not the full definition just a part of it. Some parts of the bible we can't prove we have to believe that it's so. Like that God always existed. 

*** I understand they’re consistent, can you give me one rock solid scientifically proven example of a supernatural event that has taken place, I bet you can’t?

I can't, but i'm also not in to science so maybe there is but I don't know of any. Although I do find it facinating how the world is so well balanced that it keeps everything in it alive. So i guess that's supernatural for me.

*** Here are 3 from the many hundreds :

The Sabbath Day

***“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8

first of all this was for the Jews not Gentiles

***“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5

Here Paul speaks that it's okay if you would want to keep the sabbath and if you don't that's fine as well. Also do you know that in Christ there is no jew or gentile, no black or white etc.. all these things of the old testament, you don't have to do them physically anymore. Jesus did all of it for us. 

The Permanence of Earth

***“… the earth abideth for ever.” — Ecclesiastes 1:4

first, you are taking it out of context again. This verse was placed in comparence of mankind. We die long before the earth "dies" so in comparence the earth is everlasting .Second the word that was used means eon which is a large era of time with a beginning and end for the earth as we know it now.

***“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” — 2Peter 3:10 

and if you read 3 verses later you see Peter talking about a new heaven and earth so technically it's still everlasting

Seeing God

***“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

I understand how this one could throw you off. but it's still true that no one has ever seen God. So the next question would be, what is going on? If you read Genesis 31:11-13 you see that God apparently has a angel who's called the angel of God. That angel speaks on behalf of God as if he himself is God. So with that in mind you read gen 32:30 Jacob saw God (yes in a sense, but not litterely) and was wrestling with God('s angel)

***“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

This is still true

*** They would totally disagree with you on this so who’s version is right?

The bible is right, always go back to the bible and see what it says about all of those things you mentioned.

*** To claim a a fallacy is fallacy is illogical . Of course you can a member of a bird watchers club is a bird watcher unless for some bizzare reason he/ she is faking it 

But even if he or she fakes it (s)he still says: I'm a bird watcher. My question to you, is (s)he a bird watcher still? even if (s)he is faking it?

***If you play for the team you’re part of it if you don’t others will tell you “mo you’re not part of our team” 

But am I a part of it or not? Is my question to you.

*** How can you know if you didn’t read the Quran? 

I read some of it

*** What did you read and why did you believe it?

It's not a matter of believe it, I saw it was written. I can't remember the verse exactly, but I'll come back to it

***

That's where you're wrong and also taking things out of context

The context is that God is so pure that everything that's even a little bit impure would instantly not be able to come near God or would perish. Since the Jews wanted to come close to God on their own account they had to destroy everything that was impure to reach God (not just homosexual acts). Now since they couldnt do that. God had to reach out to them (through Jesus). Now everyone who has Jesus in them are pure and also Jesus took away the physical killing of things. Now only mentally some of our acts have to be "killed" off. 

*** It’s you that’s totally wrong your passage makes no sense at all , read this verse again and explain how it relates in any way to what you just said ...

It relates in the sense that God is pure and everything that is impure cant live next to God, Therefore dead. 

“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

*** This is a very clear instruction on the fate of homosexuals from your god 

The acts of homosexuals. Yes this verse specifically poinst out homosexuals, But there is another verse that points out all of the bad deeds of men cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 

*** You’re not in a position then to give an opinion on it right?

That must mean you know much of the Quran then? Since you also have a opinion on it. 

*** Well other Christians disagree with you so who’s right? How do you decide?

I hope you're not offended by this but do you really not understand when I say that the Bible says this? It's not my word against another person. It's the bible that says that you have to believe in Christ in order to have substance in your faith. So again it really doesnt matter at all what other people say or that they disagree with me. It's the bible, the bible says this. 

It's as if I'm saying that I'm playing for a team when they clearly say "in order to be in this team you have to be contracted". No matter how much I say I'm in the team, I'm not in it, since I don't have that contract. Please do understand this otherwise it really has no use for me to keep saying this, it would just be a waste of both of our times.

***What ever someone does besides or after that is up to God to judge. But I know that Jesus said love your enemy and I don't think that Hate speeches are love. 

Well then your own god is guilty of hate speeches right?

“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

Again out of context and I've explained it. Everything that's impure can't be close to God, or it will perish under the purity of God.

*** It’s not ..... A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.

I think I've adressed this above

We are talking on two different levels here. Yes parables are used to understand a story or a meaning easier. Not necessarly easy altogether. You can test this yourself, do you think you understand every parable that has ever been made everywhere? 

*** No I didn’t claim that and if they’re incomprehensible they’re useless 

Didnt say you claimed it, I asked you. To you it might seem useless I can understand that. But you could also try to understand what it means.

*** The “context” right .....I can give you examples of Christians who totally disagree on context so who’s right?

Again, the bible is the one who's right 

*** That’s elitist , you have made a choice that one nation is superior to others 

nowhere is said superior, They were set apart, chosen ones. . 

*** Well it actually is there are 30,000 denominations of Christianity and not one agrees with the other on which version is correct all because of a poorly written book 

First of all I still don't see how that's the problem of the bible. It's still the problem of men. Second there are several Christians that believe the same thing. Most of the Christians believe in God and Jesus. 

*** You mean you will have a different version of what it means yes I know and each one of you’s say you’re right and the others are wrong 

Let me ask you something. Does every evolutionist believe every aspect of evolution the same way? If not, how can you know if it's real what you believe. Before you say evidence, note that they also think they have evidence. I also know the bible has evidence for it to be real.

***You say god gives preferential treatment Peter says he doesn’t is Peter lying ?

Acts 10:34

So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality

Do you really don't understand what is going on here? Yes as a human being we are all equal and God loves and cares for every human being. But people or nations could have different roles. As I said before, you are not lesser of a person if you have a different role

***People have different roles 24/7 in life are you against that as well? 

*** As well as what exactly?

It seem to me that you are against the role of Israel among other nations. So I'm asking are you against different roles of people in life as we know it now? 

*** Where did I say I was against different roles?

Israel 

*** Of course it does a slave has been branded a lesser man do you deny this ?

In the bible? Yes I deny this.

 In the world, no I do not deny this

*I think we're gonna keep going back in circles with this one. Yes all the bad things in the world is a dreadful way to treat another human being. But God allowed it (at that time) for some reasons I don't know. Maybe , again, in order for us to know and see what is right and wrong. Still I can't judge because I can't see the full picture. 

***Yes , it makes no sense at all 

please explain to me how it doesnt

*** What do you mean “if it’s up to him “?

As in, If satan had any say in who stays dead who comes back to life.

***  So if in a rage god kills someone it’s cool as he can bring them back to life ....oh dear 

God doesn't rage the same way we people rage, God could be angry yes. 

Let me paint a picture here. There are atleast 3 ways a god could be. 1. He could be a angry god that only wants to keep destroying his creation and torture them forever, I mean who could stop him really? 2. He could be a loving God that allows you to try things of your own, but also corrects you for spinning off in to some direction that wouldnt make you happy eventually. 3. a pushover god that lets his creation run wild and doesnt do anything about it. 

In all 3 of these cases which god would you prefer? remember you have no influence on these gods, they can choose to run their creation as they see fit.

So to come back to your question if he wanted to rage and kill and bring back to life you can think whatever you want about it, but in reality what does that matter? 

*** 

Just to be clear it wasnt necessarly a king just someone with (more) money. Well first of all we don't live in those days so things would go differently today. 

*** Slaves were mostly sold at slave markets to anyone and everyone do you disagree?

No offense but sometimes I don't think you really read what I'm saying or maybe it's me being unclear. But I was actually agreeing with you. that it's not always a king it could be someone with money

*** Wow! So if you had no money you would sell a child?

Jumping to conclusions. I meant I'm not even in that position (no money position) for it to be concidered. You do know that in the present day people sell their children right? 

*** Right so your contention is that the selling of a child in biblical times is like modern day adoption? Really?

I'm talking about selling a kid, both biblical and modern day does this. Whatever happens after the selling is irrelevant for my statement. It's about selling your child. That happened then that still happens now. that's my contention.

*** Where does it say lords? Why would selling to lords make toyed slavery better ?

Not in this verse, but masters could be translated as lords. I wasnt making a claim that it was better.

***This is not a personal attack on you, but this is exactly what's wrong with us when we  don't watch out when we read the bible,. Where did it say SEX slaves? We imply the things on how we visualize on how it must've been. But you didnt read that it said sex slaves. I've read the bible many times and again I could be wrong. But I never saw a verse that said it's okay to have Sex slaves explicit, not implied. If you did, can you show that to me? 

*** Really ? So the verse about selling your daughter to whoever wants her is not about sex slavery really?

It's more probably about marriage as the verses after that speak about marriage. So no that particular verse was most likely not about sex slavery.

Moses  one thousand males from each of the twelve tribes of Israel to destroy the cities and the warriors of Midian. The "false prophet" Balaam was killed, along with the five Midianite kings.

Moses decreed that every male child and non-virginal woman be killed, while the Midianite virgins were taken by the Israelites as part of the spoils of war.

*** What do you think female spoils of war are?

It's not about what I think, It's about what has been written and there is nowhere in that verse written that they would be sex slaves.

*** A child is never “property” where do you get this stuff from?

Not in the litteral sense, but what does it mean when someone says 'he is my son'? isnt that some sort of a claim that someone belongs to someone else? 

*** Adoption is when the subsequent relationship with the child is essentially non-exploitative, the usual purpose of child-selling is to permit adoption.

I rest my case on the 'child-selling'. I wasnt making a point in the difference of both situations (slavery or adoption). I was making a point that they are the same in selling a child.

. ***Did you know that Paul called himself a slave for Christ and if remember correctly he even called us bought and property of Christ, so also slaves.

*** Do you know what metaphorically speaking means? 

Even though it was a metaphor, some aspects of the slavery (servant) were good. Otherwise he wouldnt use that metaphor. Besides I don't think he meant it as a metaphor, he really sees himself as a servant of Christ.

***Well I don't fully understand it myself but i've heard it from someone else who explained it. I believe it was something like this. There is a probabilty that daughters would get sold because of marriage and that the father could not pay the bride money. The reason for this thought is because the next verses are about marriage. If the lords she was bethroted/sold to were displeased with her she needed to be let go and sold to someone else, because a divorced woman had no chance in society. Now if the lord bought her for his son to marry, he needed to treat her as if she was his own daughter. 

This is the Hebrew translation:

If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her

You don't have to agree with this, but I hope I atleast clarified it a bit for you https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo21

*** I don’t agree at all I’ve given you more than enough to show you how brutal slavery was 

As I said, you don't have to agree I was just trying to clarify it for you. What that verse was about

 

*** Allow means to consent 

and consent means permission OR agreement. It could mean agree, it could mean permitting something to happen.

* From being eternaly seperated from God.

*** That makes no sense to me 

either way that's what it is.

****This is not a correct stance to take i believe, because if all of my friends or everyone i know said it's okay to rape it doesnt matter if they find it okay it's still not correct or it's still a big deal.

*** Right so my wife works for a finance firm has a company car , paid holidays and brilliant work conditions and she is no better off than a biblical slave .....really?

I think you should try to grasp what I'm saying. It's not about the extra's behind the work, sure your wife has it better then a slave. But in both cases, a slave or a employee is working for someone else. 

*** God made laws for the buying and selling of slaves is that what you mean by “the best of that situation at that time” ?

Yes

*** Why is it necessary?

unfortunate I dont have the answer to that question.

***I haven't found it in the Hebrew manuscript the word bond slaves. Just servants

BONDSERVANT

bond'-sur-vant: Appears only once in the King James Version (Leviticus 25:39) where it translates `ebhedh, "a slave": "Thou shalt not cause him to render the service of a bondservant" or slave. the Revised Version (British and American) frequently uses bondservant (doulos) instead of the word "servant" of the King James Version (John 8:34, 35 1 Corinthians 7:21 Galatians 4:7).

Strong's Hebrew

5656. abodah -- labor, service

... 1), work (18), workers (1). act, bondage, bondservant, effect, labor,

ministering, office, service, tillage,. Or mabowdah {ab-o-daw ... 

/hebrew/5656.htm - 6k

5650. ebed -- slave, servant

... bondage, bondman, bondservant, manservant. From abad; a servant -- X bondage, bondman,

(bond-)servant, (man-)servant. see HEBREW abad. 5649, 5650. ebed. 5651 ... 

/hebrew/5650.htm - 6k Strong's Hebrew

5656. abodah -- labor, service

... 1), work (18), workers (1). act, bondage, bondservant, effect, labor,

ministering, office, service, tillage,. Or mabowdah {ab-o-daw ... 

/hebrew/5656.htm - 6k

5650. ebed -- slave, servant

... bondage, bondman, bondservant, manservant. From abad; a servant -- X bondage, bondman,

(bond-)servant, (man-)servant. see HEBREW abad. 5649, 5650. ebed. 5651 ... 

/hebrew/5650.htm - 6k

As I said, the hebrew manuscript does not speak of this. Just servants

*** How do you reach that conclusion ?

Because it is my understanding of the scripture

*** What part of owning people as property is moral ?

again it's not about what you or I think is moral. In those days slavery was allowed and God dealt with it in the way He thinks what's best.

*** did He preach for it? 

*** Ephesians 6:5-9 New International Version (NIV)

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free

I could reply on the verse on what it means but for now I'm just going to say that I asked for Jesus His preaching. This is Paul 

*** I don’t know what country you live in but do Christians in your country refer to their children as “property” ? When your child turns to adulthood is he/she still your “ property “?

I think I've adressed the "property" situation above. 

Have a nice day 

Dee

@Jern

Ok will leave it at that as we are going round in circles at this stage , been good talking