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Abortion is not always the woman's choice?
in General

By ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1348 Pts
I have come to the conclusion that the abortion debate is something I am not very sure of. I do have a position on this but I am unsure of that position and so at present decided to reserve judgment. So, this is something I am very open to being persuaded by if someone can provide me a strong argument that refutes my current stance.

My current position is as follows:

Now, while some may argue there is no specific point of viability there is a general point which usually is deemed after 24 weeks of gestation. Please note here that I am not talking about life when I mention viability. I am referring to the period at which the baby is now developed enough and capable of living outside the womb. Therefore, it is at this stage they can be deemed capable of personhood. It's at this point and beyond where I think abortion needs a very good reason to happen. And I don't see how just saying it's you're body and you should do what you like with it is sufficient enough reason to warrant an abortion at this stage. I do see medical reasons being good enough though.

I'm not of the position that it is never the woman's position; in most cases, I am pro-choice,  but rather that in certain circumstances the choice of action would be better decided by another party.









About Persuade Me

Persuaded Argument

  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    Winning Argument ✓
    I'm not comfortable with the idea of late abortions unless for a very good reason 

    I don't know of any woman who makes the decision to abort without very good reason, people  against abortion mostly seem to infer it's a very causal decision and abortion is done without care or thought 



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Arguments

  • Honestly I think that if you decide you want an abortion that late in the pregnancy, there's probably a good chance you aren't going to be a very good parent, besides the simple likelihood that someone who wants an abortion almost definitely doesn't want a child at that time.

    Other than that, which lets be honest isn't a very good argument the only thing I can think of is to compare it to the draft. If you support the draft but oppose abortion I think that there is some inconsistency in your moral values, however if you are willing to accept that maybe sometimes it shouldn't be the woman's choice, then would you also accept that the draft is sometimes okay?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1348 Pts

    Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by draft?









  • At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1348 Pts

    @Happy_Killbot That's not really something I can relate to due to both not knowing much about it as well as not being a US Citizen.









  • @ZeusAres42 ;

    Basically it is a lottery system to determine who will have to join the military when it is active. Every man has to register for the draft but unless there was some major open conflict no one gets picked up.

    The point that I am making is that if you can accept that in certain situations that it is okay to say that a woman doesn't own her body in the case of child birth, then the same can apply to young men who have their lives randomly ruined by forcing them into armed conflict.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Dee. Wouldnt the argument that abortion is not a casual decision provide credence to a fetus is not just a clump of cells.

    Otherwise i see no reason why it would not be a casual decision.
  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    @MichaelElpers

    Wouldn't the argument that abortion is not a casual decision provide credence to a fetus is not just a clump of cells.

    Who is making that argument?  


    Otherwise i see no reason why it would not be a casual decision.

    If you are casual, you are, or you pretend to be, relaxed and not very concerned about what is happening or what you are doing, is this your perception of women who make that choice? 

  • @Dee. Most prochoice proponents.  The argument most of the time is that the fetus, has no conciousness, and therefore is no more than a bundle of cells.  In this instance it should be no different than going to the doctor to get an infected toe nail removed, which is very casual decision.

    The fact that you think it is not a casual decision for women, would point to the argument that the fetus is much more than that.


  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    @MichaelElpers

    Most prochoice proponents.  

    Really? Ok 

    The argument most of the time is that the fetus, has no conciousness, and therefore is no more than a bundle of cells.  

    What does it mean to be conscious? Even a new born lacks self awareness. Anyway I’m not making that argument 


    In this instance it should be no different than going to the doctor to get an infected toe nail removed, which is very casual decision.

    Even at that how do you actually know emotionally what individual women go through regarding such decisions?

    The  fact that you think it is not a casual decision for women, would point to the argument that the fetus is much more than that.

    So what if a fetus is much more  than that? 
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1348 Pts
    @Dee


    Well, this has almost persuaded me. I think It is in relation to an objection I was trying to come up with to my own stance lol. One of the arguments that I have made in the past (and this might either an appeal to extremes/slippery slope) is that if it's only about a week before the birth and a woman decides to have an abortion for no other reason than that she decided to change her mind and she argues it's her body and she should have the right to do whatever she wants with it. And prior to this stage both the mother and father were in full agreement that they wanted the baby and were looking forward to having the baby.

    Now, an objection to this might be that this particular scenario is extremely unlikely to occur in reality. And as also pointed out on another thread very few women actually abort unless it's a very good reason. Furthermore, I doubt many people have in mind these unlikely scenarios when arguing the abortion debate.









  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1348 Pts
    @ZeusAres42 ;

    Basically it is a lottery system to determine who will have to join the military when it is active. Every man has to register for the draft but unless there was some major open conflict no one gets picked up.

    The point that I am making is that if you can accept that in certain situations that it is okay to say that a woman doesn't own her body in the case of child birth, then the same can apply to young men who have their lives randomly ruined by forcing them into armed conflict.


    I am sorry but I fail to see the similarities between the two here. For one thing, I find determining when it is and when it is not acceptable to abort far more complex than deciding whether or not we agree with young men being coerced into armed conflict.









  • @ZeusAres42 ;
    The primary argument for abortion is that a woman owns her body, therefor she gets to decide what happens to it. This happens to be the same main argument against the draft. While you might make provisions for determining when an abortion is acceptable, I.e. the mothers health, the same provisions almost always apply to the draft (or at the very least a direct analogue) They don't conscript people with major medical disability. You might make provisions for abortion in the case of rape because the mother didn't take action to get pregnant, but in the case of conscription that is everyone who didn't join freely. Thus there are many parallels here.

    The argument then follows, that if you legislate that abortion is acceptable in some cases you are implying that in some situations a woman doesn't own her body and shouldn't always get to decide what happens to it. Since this is a state mandated affair, this means that the autonomy lost belongs to the state in such circumstances. If it is acceptable for the state to have some control over the bodily resource of it's citizens then it follows that in some situations such as times of war, it is permissible to use the bodies of it's citizens as soldiers hence the draft.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    edited May 17
    @ZeusAres42

    Furthermore, I doubt many people have in mind these unlikely scenarios when arguing the abortion debate. 

    Yes , that’s the problem with a lot of these debates people think up the most extreme examples in an attempt to force the issue , I’m not comfortable with late term abortions as I think there was enough time to make the decision without the wait

    What always gets me is the attitude that women take this decision and have an abortion like getting a hairstyle how can anyone know except the woman doing it as to what brought her to this decision?
    ZeusAres42
  • @Dee. If you have emotional problems over getting a toe nail removed you need mental help.

    If a fetus is much more than that, it is wrong to kill it.
  • John_C_87John_C_87 301 Pts
    @ZeusAres42 ;
    I have come to the conclusion that the abortion debate is something I am not very sure of. I do have a position on this but I am unsure of that position and so at present decided to reserve judgment. So, this is something I am very open to being persuaded by if someone can provide me a strong argument that refutes my current stance.


     Okay so why are you not sure women?

     Women want the authority to give all women a military order to apply lethal force as a united state and have taken actions to accomplish that goal. Allowing yourself and others to be placed in a legally compromising position of authority when taking part in a publicly describe murder without regulation to create all-woman equal. The key component needed to be proven to legal authority is that malpractice is taking place using abortion and the united state of the woman. It is the only goal and nothing more, as we are to dissolve only the constraints which have been created publicly that are interrupting the equality between all woman.

    A female United State Constitutional right is for a woman to address female-specific amputation, not abortion at all.
  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    @John_C_87

    Thanks for clearing that up 
  • DeeDee 1903 Pts
    @MichaelElpers

    If you have emotional problems over getting a toe nail removed you need mental help.

    I agree , I should have stated regarding abortion in my “such decisions “ as that’s what I meant 

    Even at that how do you actually know emotionally what individual women go through regarding such decisions?


  • John_C_87John_C_87 301 Pts
    Dee said:
    @John_C_87

    Thanks for clearing that up 
    It's not my mess to clear up and I have made only one thing clear the invasion of privacy imposed by the woman against the woman was uncalled for internationally.
    The question I ask was clear why is ZuesAres42 not sure of a crime?
  • John_C_87John_C_87 301 Pts

    What always gets me is the attitude that women take this decision and have an abortion like getting a hairstyle how can anyone know except the woman doing it as to what brought her to this decision?

    Malpractice, the reason is not a secrete and has been made clear by women so it should be no surprise. Even when the opportunity to correct the situation on a basic principle arises in which self-incrimination plays a major roll in the first impression given to the public the basic idea is self-incrimination as necessary.

     Even at that how do you actually know emotionally what individual women go through regarding such decisions?

    Invasion of privacy, again no secret there it has been the principle of basic concern for well over 50 years. Even if you do not like the example of self-restraint created by female-specific amputation the idea of creating all-woman equal would be the legal obligation to justice for all.

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