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No one has explained why Asian people are not having the poverty and crime issues of other groups.
in Politics

If racism is the sole reason for the chronic poverty and crime problems in the African American inner cities, why do Asians do so well in Big cities? There are many people who are racist towards Asians. How have their families stayed intact and managed to create businesses to support themselves?

No one ever explains how other hated groups such as Jews, Asians, etc. manage to break free from poverty. I already understand the reasons why, but the Left refuses to address the break down in families within African American families. Until the core problems of any issue is addressed, there can be no hope for better results.

Race bating is what garners the Democrat Party over 90% of the Black vote each election. It's a winning strategy by the Left to keep Black people on Government dependence in inner cities. Nothing will ever change until you force Democrats to stop the race bating. Stop electing them and tell them why!

Trump's economy was creating record numbers of jobs for Black people until this Covid disease shut down our economy. If you elect Biden, it will once again be back to non stop race bating with record numbers on food stamps and record poverty in the Black communities.
PlaffelvohfenDeeJustAnAllMightFan



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  • Asians were never imported as slaves and didn't have generations of race-based superiority ideas associated with them.

    Remember, the Europeans were trying to trade with Asia when America was colonized. For the most part they saw Asians as being equals, and this carried all the way up until recent times.

    Also, the bible justifies mistreatment of Africans because the after Noah's ark lands he is rapped by his son Ham, who would become father of the Canaanites. Thus they are evil and deserving of mistreatment.

     Problem solved.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeWe_are_accountablepiloteerliberalwithmoralsJustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    No one ever explains how other hated groups such as Jews, Asians, etc. manage to break free from poverty.

    Right so you admit as an American Christian you hate , Jews , Asians etc , etc as well as blacks? Your words not mine 


    You’ve made your detestation of blacks known in your previous posts where you claimed “they have no moral values” and now you need others to explain why some races prospered over others in the US?

    You and your fellow American Christians deemed it moral and just to segregate and treat blacks as mere beasts right up to the 1960’s , this didn’t just dissapear when people like Martin Luther King and others demanded rights for blacks , you claim you’re from a Christian nation which under Christian leaders and mainly Christian  population have an appalling history of racism which racists like you blame everyone but yourself 

    Decent Americans were the ones who recognized how unjust the whole system was in its treatment of others , people like you are throwbacks to the 1800’s and typify how religion US style  poisons everything 
    PlaffelvohfenScienceRules
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    after Noah's ark lands he is rapped by his son Ham

    That made me laugh as I was thinking of Ham rapping away and never getting credit as the father of rap 
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
  • @Happy_Killbot

    Ignore the anti Christian Bigot!
    liberalwithmorals
  • @Dee

    LOL, the insulting anti Christian bigot once again wstes my time. IGNORE
  • @We_are_accountable ;
    @Happy_Killbot

    Ignore the anti Christian Bigot!

    Cowardice... Typical.

    Why do you bother wasting your time making these posts if you know they are just going to be shot down immediately?

    I mean, by now you must know that you are wrong and we can collectively prove it to you. Why do you bother clinging to your objectively false beliefs?
    PlaffelvohfenDeepiloteerWe_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @We_are_accountable

    LOL, the insulting anti Christian bigot once again wstes my time. IGNORE

    Translation from we are accountable  to English ......” I have no defence” ....as usual 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Have you ever heard of the yellow peril?
  • @Happy_Killbot. Asians were however put in camps and had their property stolen from them during WW2.  Treated as the enemy/second class.

    Also wouldnt white supremacy mean that you believe white are superior to all races, including Asians.  Im not sure i fully agree that they were treated as equals, just not as harshly as African Americans.

    Yet in reality, we still discriminate against Asian americans by lowering test scores and attempting to lower the amount in ivy league colleges and certain career fields, in the name of "diversity". 
    We_are_accountable
  • @MichaelElpers ;
    The internment of Japanese (not all Asians) during WWII was just a few years long and was based on political differences rather than specifically because of race, vs decades of systemic mistreatment stretching back before the US was founded, which was based specifically on the concept of race. At the end of the war, they were allowed to leave, this wasn't given enough time for people to develop the same biases towards them as towards other groups.

    The difference between these things is several orders of magnitude, and thus is insufficient to account for differences in development of minority groups.

    White supremacy is just the tip of the iceberg in the wider identitarian ideology. It has less to do with superiority and more to do with people of similar culture and complexion being around people like them. Most would argue that any benefits that come from diversity should best be attained through segregation and isolation rather than through intermixing, both to preserve their own unique cultures and to foster specific advantages within that group.

    I assume you are talking about affirmative action, which is an entirely different debate but I will summarize what that's all about here. There are some individuals who through no fault of their own are economically disadvantaged due to histories of inequality. The idea is that by relocating admission we can work to balance out these opportunities across the board. In this way, just because you were born in a wealthy family doesn't guarantee that you will get better opportunities than someone who comes from a poor family, and everyone's success in life is a result of their work and effort rather than random based on what family you were born into. Affirmative actions works to achieve equity through equality of opportunity.
    piloteerWe_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot. I think you are down playing the way Japanese americans were treated.  They may have been allowed to leave, but they were not given back most of their property or possessions.  Also its not like mindset of people just flipped a switch in two years, it takes more than that for people to stop discrimination.

    Regarding affirmative action, you didnt dispel the argument they are discriminating Asian Americans.  Also you talk about wealthy families and poor families, but that is not what affirmative action...it is raced based.  As a white poor person you will not see any affirmativr action.

    We_are_accountable
  • JernJern 44 Pts
    Gen 9
    25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan ; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren

    Gen 10
    6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan

    It is said that black people came from cush and that Canaan is the place where Israël is now.  So any, back in the days, christians who said that black people should be slaves wasnt quoting the bible and everyone else who thinks the bible said this about black people is also wrong. 

    Nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to point that out.
    We_are_accountable
  • JernJern 44 Pts
    edited June 3
    .
  • @MichaelElpers ;
    The point I am making here is that the two are not in the same league in any way. Persons of color weren't even allowed to own property for the longest time, and systemic racism is practically undeniable.

    Affirmative action is it's own debate. I'm not arguing that it's perfect here, I'm just pointing out that it is designed to combat inequity.
    We_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JernJern 44 Pts
    Gen 9
    25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan ; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren

    Gen 10
    6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan

    It is said that black people came from cush and that Canaan is the place where Israël is now.  So any, back in the days, christians who said that black people should be slaves wasnt quoting the bible and everyone else who thinks the bible said this about black people is also wrong. 

    Nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to point that out.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 346 Pts
    edited June 3
    @Happy_Killbot. I believe they were allowed to own property in the 1940s however, where as japanese americans would have had to start from square one.

    It matters at what time period the discrimination occured.

    How long does it take for discrimination to no longer play a role?  50, 100, 200 years?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3295 Pts
    Nowadays absolutely anyone can be successful in a First World country. There are countless opportunities, and while the number of market barriers erected by governments keeps growing as well, the gain in the number of opportunities created by technology and steadily rising living standards far outpaces it.

    The question of why members of some social groups are more likely to be successful than members of some other social groups cannot be answered in simple terms: too many factors are involved. Ultimately, I do not even think it a reasonable question to consider: humans are individuals, and all these groupings by race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. are fairly arbitrary and irrelevant. Yes, it is true that an Asian person is more likely to make it than a Hispanic person statistically, but it has zero impact on the ability of the individual to achieve success. Last American president was Black, so the claim that Blacks can't make it in the US is obviously false. I am also not aware of any laws that make it harder for Blacks than anyone else to achieve success. It may be true that there is some widespread discrimination against them (I have not witnessed its instances personally, and I am not aware of any statistics that indicate that it exists, but the possibility should not be ruled out), but it obviously is not big enough to, in itself, keep them in crime and poverty. The individual choices ultimately determine it, and the obvious hypothesis to make is that, for a variety of reasons, Blacks are more likely to make poor life choices than Asians.

    Finally, government cannot "create jobs"; this phrase makes no sense. Government can "create paid positions", but those positions are not jobs, as they do not produce anything of value. Is it really a job if you knock on wood for 8 hours a day and I pay you for it? No, you are not producing anything.
    Number of jobs is defined by the market supply/demand balance. The government can add some paid positions, but it cannot inflate the demand and create extra production, since it, ultimately, operates on the taxpayers' money, which is taken from people who are already producing something. Now, the government can suppress demand and supply through various regulations, and, conversely, it can release them by removing those regulations - but the government cannot "create jobs" that were not already present on the market. Perhaps the government can replace some jobs with other jobs, but create jobs from scratch - it is not possible logically.

    Trump is a usual interventionist that throws executive orders and subsidies around in order to "stimulate" the economy - another pseudo-economical term. Economy cannot be stimulated with money dumps and regulations; it is akin to trying to pull yourself out of quicksand by pulling on your hair with your hands.
    He is no better than a couple of his predecessors, and that so many people worship him just shows that people do not understand economics and believe in shamanism and prayer in place of proper science and logic.
  • @MayCaesar. I do disagree with you slightly on the last part.  You say government van not create jobs, and i agree with that, and in general you believe that government gets in the way of jobs.  Wouldnt Trump's massive deregulation and tax cuts in essence make more job creation because the government is getting out of the way?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3295 Pts
    @MichaelElpers

    But that would be like saying that me robbing someone and taking their wallet, and then returning it next day, created wealth for them. This is a very strange interpretation.

    It also takes away the credit from the involved individuals unfairly. When 10,000 more people become employed than before, it is not that 10,000 jobs were created; it is that 10,000 job contracts were arranged between people. No act of creation occurred. There is no body that somehow makes jobs appear; they appear spontaneously as a reaction to market forces.

    If politicians talked not about "job creation", but about freeing the market so people can have more opportunities in life, then I would have no objection to it. But few politicians will, because it sounds fairly chaotic, and people prefer to have a clearer idea of what exactly their actions accomplish. Hayek wrote about this in his "Road to Serfdom": that giving people opportunities is hard to justify before the voters, as it is not clear what they will do with those opportunities - instead, achieving concrete results, even if they were achieved in ways that involve serious long-term damage to the society, makes for a significantly higher approval of the governmental action.
    Imagine if Trump just said, "Our people now have more opportunities than before". That sounds scary and uncertain: what if people misuse those opportunities? This is a major problem in politics the solution to which I do not know.
  • @MayCaesar Slightly different because Trump isnt the one that did the initial stealing.
    I think it is proper to give credit if Trumps policy gave people the opportunity to contract 10000 jobs than the alternative.  Your right that the individuals deserve credit, but the person who gave them the ability to do so derserves some as well.
    If one person was a socialist dictator and the next established free market principles would you give no credit to the predecessor for the improvement.  Or would you just say thats the way it should have been.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3295 Pts
    edited June 5
    @MichaelElpers

    But Trump represents the government, the same government that did the stealing in the first place. Sure, he may act differently from his predecessors in some regards - but the actual institution is the same.

    Imagine if Amazon today sent a squad of troops to loot your house. And 10 years later it would get a new CEO who would decide to give you the looted stuff back. Would it be correct to say that the new CEO "created wealth" for you? No, he/she just gave you back your wealth. Nothing was created. Something was returned, but that is about it.

    If a socialist dictator demolished the market, and his/her successor restored it, then I would say that the successor, indeed, rebuilt the system that should have been there in the first place. I would not say that he/she created a free market system. I would give him/her a credit for restoring what should have been there all along, but the word "creation" implies something more than that.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 346 Pts
    edited June 5
    @MayCaesar But trump did not represent the institution until he became president.  Yes i would say thr new CEO did the right thing and give him credit.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3295 Pts
    edited June 5
    @MichaelElpers

    Nonetheless, he represents the institution now, and his actions are executed through the institution. Saying "Trump created 10,000 jobs", in this sense, is equivalent to saying "the government created 10,000 jobs", which is a false statement.

    And, in any case, nothing that was stolen and then regained can be claimed to be "created", regardless of who did the act of returning it to the original owner. You could, maybe, say that "Trump released 10,000 jobs", but the word "created" here is seriously out of place.

    And, for that matter, how can these things even be reasonably calculated? Suppose there is a vacancy at a local McDonalds that remains unfilled for 2 years. Then the government looses regulations and lowers taxes, and that causes someone to take that job. Does it mean that a job was created? Of course not: the job was there to begin with, the governmental action just reduced the costs of taking that job for the people, which triggered someone to take it on.
    "Job creation" is a fallacious concept all around. You cannot create jobs; you can only loosen regulations, so people are more eager to take the existing jobs.
  • edited June 28
    @We_are_accountable
    Asians weren't large in number in the US until the 60s when the government began lifting immigrant limitations that previously favored Europeans to Asians. However, in order to qualify for the immigration to the US you had to be wealthy and/highly educated. Meaning these Asian nations couldn't send their peasant farmers or low skill service industry, but only their "best" meaning their doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. As a result these people were able to land better careers and have more generational wealth for their children to use to invest in higher education and they use that to land good careers as soon on. The very small number of asians who were here before the 60s intermarried with the ones brought here post 60s or emigrated back to their home nations. As you stated, poverty is the main reason for crime. However due to Asians being economically secure because of selective immigration policies, they already had money and did not need to turn to crime. Let's compare that to Afro Americans who did not have the luxory of their first gen immigrant ancestors being university educated and wealthy. They were descended from slaves who had no access to high education, were illiterate and consequentially low skilled workers who had children that would suffer the same circumstances as they could not afford college. During the great migration, it wasn't black business owners or doctors who left the south but rather black sharecropers who were low skilled workers. These people moved to inner cities to accommodate the growing need of low skilled workers for manufacturing. Where despite jim crow, they made a decent living. However when all of these jobs were outsourced, the black economy trembled because its based relied on these factory jobs. So now you have a bunch of low skilled uneducated unemployed workers in a condense area in a failing economy. As a result they turned to crime in the form of the drug trade to make a living. Asians did not have to do this because they never worked in factories in the first place, they had the education to take on higher jobs such as doctors lawyers and professors so their communities were stable. Que in the war on drugs which was a program intentionally created to feed into the private prison industry by sending it non violent drug offenders and radicalising them so that when they came out they were more likely to be reincarcinated. There is actually leaked audio of president Reagan's team detailing how the drug war was created to intentionally appeal to former dixecrat voters and disenfranchise poor black people. When these black offenders were released from prison they couldn't land a job due to their prison record and were already conditioned by the prison system to be better criminals that they turned to crime as a way to stay economically afloat. There is a reason why black gangs such as the bloods and crips, did not exist until after American manufacturing was outsourced and when the drug war was at it's height in the 80s. In fact during the 80s when drug policies were made even harsher under Reagan, black on black homicide doubled. Again Asians suffered little from this since they came here highly educated so that they were able to maintain well paying careers. Despite politicians such as Bill Clinton saying that the Drug war was an obvious ploy to attack black americans, we still see nonviolent offenders get outrageously long sentences. These offenders end up joining gangs in prison for protection and money and soon become so conditioned to crime that they can't rehabilitate. Portugal faced the same drug issue as the US but while we focused on harsher sentencing, Portugal focused on legalization and rehabilitation and as a result their homicide and reincarcination rates fell while ours have been increasing. Prior to the drug war black single parenthood, black on black crime was low. The core issues aren't "leftist policies" as we have no actual left party in the US, but rather it has been  right wing policies such as outsourcing and the drug war which have hurt working class americans. Also the destruction of culture has a lot to do with it. Asians came here mostly in a post jim crow and slavery america, as a result they were able to maintain their culture and their customs and build a commmunity off of that. A black person on the other hand, doesn't know if they are bantu or togo or congo or ghanian, all they know about themselves are the records their descendants left, which due to slavery deliberately destroying any remnant of black pride or black culture is very little. Instead afro americans have been indoctrinated to hate anything that represents Africa, such as natural hair, dark skin, language etc. They were thought to drop their original values and assimilate into european culture which has had a massive effect on their self esteem more so than any other minority group. Theres a reason why groups such as the natural hair movement exist. You bring up the Japanese camps but in reality those people were very small compared to the asians who came under the immigrant program allowing only educated. If asia were instead sent only or mostly low skilled uneducated people instead of college graudautes then they would be doing equally as badly as black and Latino peoples are. So all in all why do asians do better? Biased immigration policies and not suffering the effects of slavery,  outsourcing, and drug war.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/immigration/us-immigration-since-1965
    https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/

    We_are_accountable
  • Racism and poverty are very much there in Asia. Europeans did a great deal in making us poor. But Asians, or maybe more correctly south asians were literally digging their own graves. 
    @Happy_Killbot
    Also I am sorry but i didn't get the part about slavery. 
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan

    After saying all that, you ignore the one true fact. Approximately 70% of Black children have no father at home! THAT'S IT!

    Spew all your cherry picked excuses to the day you die. I will live by the obvious facts. I see Asian families intact, and having no problem supporting themselves. I see them staying in schools, not falling into crime and drugs. THAT'S IT! IT'S NOT ROCKET SCINCE!

    Balck people have not chosen to drop out of school, joined gangs, committed crimes, etc. because of racism. They have done so due to broken homes. The statistics are clear when it comes to fatherless children and the percentage of those children choosing crime. 

    I see Black families in a state of collapse, and mired in gang violence, crime, etc. etc.

    Your fake news excuses have no bearing in reality. It's all politics and votes to Democrats.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • edited June 30
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    After saying all that, you ignore the one true fact. Approximately 70% of Black children have no father at home! THAT'S IT!

    Spew all your cherry picked excuses to the day you die. I will live by the obvious facts. I see Asian families intact, and having no problem supporting themselves. I see them staying in schools, not falling into crime and drugs. THAT'S IT! IT'S NOT ROCKET SCINCE!

    Balck people have not chosen to drop out of school, joined gangs, committed crimes, etc. because of racism. They have done so due to broken homes. The statistics are clear when it comes to fatherless children and the percentage of those children choosing crime. 

    I see Black families in a state of collapse, and mired in gang violence, crime, etc. etc.

    Your fake news excuses have no bearing in reality. It's all politics and votes to Democrats.
    Ok, I am convinced that you don't thoroughly analyze my comments. I never said that black families statistically don't have fathers, in fact I said the opposite. I said single motherhood has been a major cause of the downfall of this community. Don't strawman my arguments. However, I said that this is due to the war on drugs which, even being stated by Reagan and Nixon's advisors were created to intentionally harm the black community. Like I mentioned before, manufacturing was the base of the black economy. Black people who worked in the factories brought from black owned businesses, paid taxes that would go into their neighborhoods, where that money would circulate back into these communities. Because of this, black people did not have to commit crimes because they were economically secure. However, as I have said MULTIPLE times, at this point, when these jobs were outsourced then the black economy was destroyed. Asians did not have to go through this because of the immigration act of 65, allowing only skilled workers, Asians worked middled class jobs and not the lowly factory jobs that due to jim crow not allowing equal education to black families, black people had to. Ill say it again, the reason why asain people don't have to resort to the drug trade and crime is because due to immigration act of 65, they have the resources and wealth to focus on education. Black people on the other hand, were victims of the drug war which removed black fathers from the home and turned them into harden criminals to feed into private prison industry. Asian people did not have to go through the drug war since they were already economically secure due to, and I will keep saying this until you acknowledge it, the immigration act of 65 which only allowed skilled workers. My news is not fake. Everyone, Can i ask you all a question? Have I cherry picked OP's arguments? Haven't I used valid and factual data being my reasoning? People if you are reading this please answer? All of the problems in the black community can be traced back to outsourcing and heavy drug criminalization to happens to this day. All of the success to the asian community can be attributed to the immigration act of 65. Again, if Asian did not send it's skilled workers and rather its uneducated and unskilled workers, they would preform the same as black people do in the us. Keep in mind that black gang violence and single motherhood was at common until AFTER the drug laws and job outsourcing. It has been right wing policies that have destroyed the black families. Democrats are right wing so are republicans. Until the Overton window moves to the left, we will continue to see these outrageous policies and any basic social democratic reform that has been proven to work in so many nations not happen here, we will continue to see these problems. There is a reason why you can search Ben shapiro clips and find "DESTROYS BLM" or "DESTROYS SOCIALISM" but you never find a video with millions of views on his full take on the drug war. Why? Because it exposes the reality of that right wing policies have been the downfall of african americans in the us.
    Also stop calling me a democrat, as I told you before I heavily dislike the party.
    You cannot just strawman me and shout "fake news!" And expect anyone to side with your pov
    We_are_accountable
  • @JustAnAllMightFan Im not saying your wrong, but there were also plenty of Asian Americand already here before 1965 and in the 1940s many of those asian Americans were put in internment camps and had all of their property stolen.  They had to start back from square one. I dont think just immigrants from 1965 onward can explain all the success Asian Americans have had, I think it has a lot to do with their culture.

    I would also disagree that right wing policies have been the downfall of the black community as they majorly live in large cities and states under democratic rule. The fatherless issue is mainly a problem caused by leftist idealogy and making it financially better for couples to be separated rather than together. Also when you look at the war on drugs, many leaders in the black community agreed with it, as drugs were destroying their communities.
  • edited June 30
    @MichaelElpers
    @MichaelElpers I agree with you partially. However when you look at immigration rates, the Truth is, a vast, vast majority of asians came here because of the act. I am not downplaying what the Japanese went through in the camps but they did not suffer the same economic and cultural destruction that 400 years of slavery had. An asian immigrant from those times still knew if he was Japanese or Cambodian, however black people today don't know their ancestory. They don't know if they are togo or ashanti. They have been the only people to have their original ancestral records destroyed or tampered with on a large scale. The minority of asians that were here before the act intermarried with the asians after the act. Immigration prior to 65 only allowed Europeans, if you look at graphs you'll see an explosion in asians starting in the 70s to today. Asians descended directly from people here prior to 65, barely make up a noticeable percentage of todays asian pop. As a result, asian people have been able to create a culture focused on education because they can actually afford it. Black people have created cultures focused on sports such as basketball and football because they are cheap and lead to educational opportunities that their communities can't provide.Here's a graph detailing asian immigration and population history from the turn of century till now.https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/08/key-facts-about-asian-americans/Also I agree with you, democrats did ruin the black community. However the democrats aren't left wing. The war on drugs was started under nixon and pushed even harder by democrats. The fact that democrats fight for private insurance, drug war, and prison privatization means that they are right wing. In reality there is little difference between the party. Also yeah, there is A LOT of corruption in these communities. These Black leaders are often in the pocket of corporations and larger politicians to push their policies to black people. This does not negate the fact, that systematically black people are in a system where it is harder for them to succeed. There has been many times when black people have tried to fight their leaders for change. Such as in DC with the schooling act, investing in govt. funded private university prep schools. These schools force public schools to step their game up and give black parents a choice between schools. These have been a success. Even then most black leaders, for certain most black leaders today have been trying to fight these policies and instead aim for rehab. Even then it still doesn't explain why we don't treat opioid addicts in the same light as crack addicts. Also statistically both races use it at the same rate yet black people are more likely to be sentenced and sentenced longer. Also keep in mind that there were fear mongering campaigns against drugs and how they should be criminalized, its understandable to see how voters can be influenced by this. To call the democrats left wing when they have avoided most basic social democratic policy is wrong. The truth is, we haven't had an actual leftist in office since maybe Truman. Also what made black people dependent on the welfare state in the first place was the job outsourcing and private prison industry, along with denied equal opportunity due to Jim Crow. Objectively these policies have made it harder for blacks to succeed.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan. Your link did not work for me so i could not analyze the data.

    However, your stance on giving families grants to choose the school that they want, i agree with, but that is largely an idea supported by republicans and libertarians.

    I have also seen the stat of blacks getting sentenced more often and with higher sentences disputed.  Looking at the Nation as a whole that may seem correct, but different states have different laws and certain areas have different levels of policing. Looking at whites and blacks from the same location the numbers generally are level, blacks just happen to makeup areas with more strict laws and higher policing due to the amount of crime in the area.

    Who are you blaiming job outsourcing on, i would think that leftist policy would increase that as businesses would move to kore business friendly environments?
  • @JustAnAllMightFan. Your link did not work for me so i could not analyze the data.

    However, your stance on giving families grants to choose the school that they want, i agree with, but that is largely an idea supported by republicans and libertarians.

    I have also seen the stat of blacks getting sentenced more often and with higher sentences disputed.  Looking at the Nation as a whole that may seem correct, but different states have different laws and certain areas have different levels of policing. Looking at whites and blacks from the same location the numbers generally are level, blacks just happen to makeup areas with more strict laws and higher policing due to the amount of crime in the area.

    Who are you blaiming job outsourcing on, i would think that leftist policy would increase that as businesses would move to kore business friendly environments?
    Libertarians are a party built off of the philosophy of extremely limited government intervention. How is the government directly getting involved and issuing private schools in neighborhoods? By that logic they should also agree with taking methods to lower the student debt. Also, it does not make sense for republicans to be pushing that policy as they are the ones that started the drug war in the first place. Detriot, a place where that policy was implemented, happened under governor Jesse Ventura, who is an independent.
    Also, we have not had actual leftist policy in generations. That would mean basic social democratic polices such drug reform, universal healthcare, and most important workers unions, something that directly contradicts job outsourcing. Again the truth is both of our parties are right wing who agree on a majority of issues so either way our outsourcing is an effect of right wing policy. Even then more specifically, most jobs were outsourced in the 80s under Reagan, who also started the tradition of increasing the deficient 
    As for your middle point the reason why there is higher crime in that area is because of gang violence, which as I mentioned did not exist prior to outsourcing and the drug war. Police are more likely to protrol these areas because crack was intentionally introduced to these areas by the FBI.
    Here is Nixon's advisor, John Ehrlichman, explaining how the drug war was made to purposely appeal to the dixiecrats and harm the black community
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7?amp
    This only happened in the 70s, so these communities are still going to feel these effects today. 
    Also it still doesn't explain why we don't treat the opioid/heroin epidemic in white communities today in the same light we treated and still treat the crack epidemic in black neighborhoods.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.eveningsun.com/amp/4332451002
    Source above expands on that double standard. Why is that black people get higher sentences for crimes similar to whites? Why is that the government has push more of a focus on rehabilitation on the opioid and heron epidemic, yet the crack epidemic is still being meet with criminalization and sentencing that has been proven to be ineffective with prevent future crime? 
    https://www.google.com/search?q=prison+profits+usa&safe=strict&client=ms-android-att-aio-us&tbm=isch&prmd=nmiv&sxsrf=ALeKk01N4yYT3uP5afPKGKkwR3lGU5woJA:1593560846550&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcs77h3KrqAhXmguAKHVTzA0IQ_AUIFCgD&biw=360&bih=560&dpr=2#imgrc=RJI_f8ctg5g-WM
    The prison population exploded under reagan, bush, cliton and bush jr when the war was at it's height and has just started to decrease, extremely slowly in 2012 under Obama.
    I am all for black people taking personal responsibility but I will also acknowledge the system that they have been under has actively been trying to indoctrinate and dehumanize them to become prisoners for profit.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan. Republicans/liberaterians generally support those type of school policies because generally we agree with more social programs when people are minors because their position in life is not caused by them.  I have seen over and over again republican politicians supporting this regarding schooling ted cruz, rand paul ect. We believe in capatilism and competition which is why wed give families the choice of where to go. Leftism generally focuses on just throwing more money at potential issues.  Regarding student debt, no one is forced to go to college.  My recommendation is choose a college you can afford, get a scholarship, or make sure that the average career earnings of your degree make what you paid worth it.  Id also suggest that we get rid of core curriculum in college but liberals dont like that either.  In college, my professor actually as a ligitimate argumate said it helps early students decide what they want to do...that is not someone elses problem.  College should be for specialties period, that would significantly lower the cost.

    On the war on drugs im generally have liberaterian views.  If it only effects you thats fine, itlf it affects others thats a problem.

    Im not sure how universal healthcare prevents and workers unions prevent outsourcing.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan. Republicans/liberaterians generally support those type of school policies because generally we agree with more social programs when people are minors because their position in life is not caused by them.  I have seen over and over again republican politicians supporting this regarding schooling ted cruz, rand paul ect. We believe in capatilism and competition which is why wed give families the choice of where to go. Leftism generally focuses on just throwing more money at potential issues.  Regarding student debt, no one is forced to go to college.  My recommendation is choose a college you can afford, get a scholarship, or make sure that the average career earnings of your degree make what you paid worth it.  Id also suggest that we get rid of core curriculum in college but liberals dont like that either.  In college, my professor actually as a ligitimate argumate said it helps early students decide what they want to do...that is not someone elses problem.  College should be for specialties period, that would significantly lower the cost.

    On the war on drugs im generally have liberaterian views.  If it only effects you thats fine, itlf it affects others thats a problem.

    Im not sure how universal healthcare prevents and workers unions prevent outsourcing.
    With all due respect, you did not understand the context of my argument. I never said that universal healthcare would prevent outsourcing. If it seemed like I suggested it then I do apologise for me not being clear. I was making the point that, you cannot say that democrats are leftist when they don't support a basic leftist policy like universal healthcare. Therefore you cannot make the argument that cities like detriot are leftist failures, because although they are ran by democrats, they aren't ran by leftist as democrats aren't leftist. Worker unions would help give american workers the right to protest against outsourcing, as workers unions give employees more of a voice. You keep using the argument that leftist policies are to blame, and but the thing is leftist policies haven't been used on a major scale in America, as we have no viable left party. For leftist policy to have taken place we would need to enact the social reforms that nations like Denmark,germany, and Sweden have but we don't. This is because the Overton window is too far right, in an ideal world it would be center so each side can get equal policy media coverage. You can't blame something that has not even taken effect. Also your argument of "go to college and get a job" is admittedly mildly annoying to me personally because if it were that simple, black people would do it. People don't want to be in gangs, people don't want to get shot, they want better alternatives. The problem is, there isn't any. Black people (on average) just can't go to college, because due to the systematic oppression in their communities, the education they get does not properly prepare them for college. Economically wise, scholarships don't cover everything and also we've let the universities control the prices so much to the point that the student debt here is over a trillion. 2 generations ago you could work a part time job and be able to afford college, now it's not the case. For a regular public university the student debt is anywhere on average 20 to 40 grand with medical and law students having debt over 100 grand. Students in europe and asia get essentially the same education we get but at a lower price and it doesn't take as long to complete and yet 16 other countries still manage to produce more scientist than us, so it isn't like their system is inefficient. Also I will be the first to say that I don't think we should make college free, I just want it to be affordable. When you have a whole generation of people entering the workforce with massive amounts of debt not only does that inhibit their ability to care for the previous generation but also puts the upcoming one in jeopardy. That's why on average, black and Latino kids drop out of stem programs twice as much as white kids. Due to their economic inequality and inequality in public education they don't have the resources to complete these programs so they have to get art degrees which are easier and less expensive but pay less. Those kids with the art degrees then go on to have children who are at an inherent disadvantage to children of white and asian students who had the resources to get stem and law degrees. I think you genuinely want to do right by the black community but the argument of "just go to college" isn't enough. In addition to throw that out there, Im going to go on a personal whim and say that most people regardless of ideology like prerequisites. We all think it's dumb and a waste of money, those should be in the hands of high schools. Colleges make these things "mandatory" to suck more money out of students. I know in my home state of georgia we have already shrunken hope and basically killed the Duel enrollment program so, your solution of scholarships isn't going to be enough. Like I said before if college was as affordable as it used to be here and as it is in another nations, we wouldn't have to pump as money in scholarship programs.
    Also for your stance on the drug war, if you are for decriminalization and rehab like I am, then we are cool. And if politicians like red cruz are on broad with these programs and are fighting to carry it out, then I am cool with them on that particular issue as well. I'll go across my party lines as long as I think the solution will work.
    Also I agree with you on the fact that colleges should reserved for specialities. Things like computer science should be focused through apprenticeships.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 346 Pts
    edited July 1
    @JustAnAllMightFan It seems you think something is not left unless it is straight socialist.  For example i could say healthcare right now is not a right wing policy as it that would allow competition across state lines and would be almost completely privatized.

    But i would also like to make clear that i never said go to college and get a job.  What i said was if you go to college make sure you get a degree that will pay for itself.  Im actually of the opinion that way to many people think a college degree is needed for success when it is not.

    I didnt understand your argument to why black and latinos drop out of stem programs at higher rates. Im not sure why economic inequality would force someone into an art degree.  A 4 year engineering degree did not cost much more than any other 4 year degree other than lab fees.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan It seems you think something is not left unless it is straight socialist.

    But i would also like to make clear that i never said go to college and get a job.  What i said was if you go to college make sure you get a degree that will pay for itself.  Im actually of the opinion that way to many people think a college degree is needed for success when it is not.

    I didnt understand your argument to why black and latinos drop out of stem programs at higher rates. Im not sure why economic inequality would force someone into an art degree.  A 4 year engineering degree did not cost much more than any other 4 year degree other than lab fees.
    The policies that european countries and canada have, are democratic-socialism, not socialist. There is a difference. Also, I promise I am being objective when I say that democrats aren't leftist. If you were to take our democratic party and place them in european, most asian nations, and Australia, they wouldn't be considered leftist. On a global scale democrats aren't on the left. Also to call something socialist, due to the way that the term is used,  basically means to lable something as extreme. In my opinion universal healthcare, organized worker unions, and affordable university aren't extreme nor socialist. In fact, they have been proven to work and are working in other nations. 
    Also the reason why black and latino kids drop out of stem programs at a higher rate is because statistically due to systematic racism they are more likely to live in poverty which means the local schools don't give the same quality of education as schools in middle class and upper class neighborhoods, which are on average, consist mainly of white and asian residents. As a result these kids aren't prepared to go into the programs they were accepted in and drop out. Also since brown people are on average have a lower median house income, they are less likely able to afford these programs. Your parents' success is statistically the largest indicator of yours. Meaning if you parents held bachelors degrees, chances are you will too, or at least have the resources to do so. On the other hand, if your parents only had a high school diploma, it is less feasible that you will do much better, as you do not have the resources to. Black kids who are adopted, are more likely to attain 4 year degrees because, the adoption process favors 2 parent households with steady income. As a result, adopted black children have more resources compared to black kids in poverty. This isn't an excuse to be lazy, these are just statistics speaking. As a result to their economic upbringing, black students are more likely to get 2 year degrees as they are more economically feasible. Most engineering degrees are 4 year which means they are more expensive and consequently, kids from households where the income is noticeably smaller than the average of that area, likely won't go after these degrees. To add onto what I said before about, schools in low income areas giving less quality of an education as those in higher one's, kid who graduated from these low income public schools did not receive as well as an education as their wealthier peers, so they are more likely to struggle in these programs and eventually drop out. That is brief overview of why black/Latino kids are statistically more likely to drop out of stem programs and also why they are more likely to enroll in 2 year programs vs 4 year. All in all, this explains why the average income for black college graduates is lower than that of whites and why children of these graduates are still placed at a disadvantage, abet not as large as black children in poverty. Often times due to society putting too much of an emphasis on college, we don't go to college for what we want, we go for what we can get, and this is especially true for low income students. I agree with you that this view on college as an end-all and be all should be overhauled. I also think you can agree on my view that affirmative action does more harm than good because it sends kids to programs that they are not prepared for, instead of fixing the problem within the communities which I feel we will both see as an overall, more effective solution. From what I've seen, instead of making it easier for black children to go to majority white and private universities through AA, we should instead focus on ensuring that black public schools and black universities are able to offer the same majors at the same quality. By doing this we can reinvigorate the foundation of the black economy that was lost when manufacturing was outsourced.
    I wasn't the most clear on why black/Latino students drop out of these programs and pursue more feasible majors, so I apologize.
    Ultimately, I think that making university more affordable is another step we should take. As it will benefit all students regardless of race or class.
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