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There's really isn't any or that much police racism against blacks...

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  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 804 Pts   -  
    PlaffelvohfenDeeHappy_KillbotJaguarpiloteerJeffreyBlankenshipCYDdharta
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  

    There's really isn't any or that much police racism against blacks...


    You’re from a country that is steeped in racism, remember blacks were still segregated in the US right up to the 1960’s ......

    Wiki.....

    In the view of the United Nations and the U.S. Human Rights Network, "discrimination in the United States permeates all aspects of life and extends to all communities of color."
    PlaffelvohfenJaguarOakTownACYDdhartaGeorge_HorseZeusAres42
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne


    ok

    so


    From your little chart there, we see that in 2018, 7 unarmed blacks were killed. 

    If so many cops were racist, why is it that only 7 blacks out of the 42 million of them in the US were killed unjustifiably? That doesn't sound like cops going out with racist intentions to kill black people.
    Furthermore, this can just be police brutality. I agree that police brutality is bad and people like George Floyd deserve justice, but that doesn't mean that it's because the cop who killed him is racist. There literally isn't any evidence that white cops are killing black people because they're racist. Police brutality doesn't necessarily mean that cops are racist, but that's that narrative that everyone is pushing.




    For the second part of the image, there are two problems.

    1. The fact that blacks are 3x more likely to be killed doesn't mean that cops are racist. Note that it doesn't say unarmed blacks this time, but black who were either armed, running away, or committing crimes. That's justifiable. If blacks are simply committing crimes in higher rates than other races, then it makes sense that there are more being jailed or shot. Take the prison population of the US as an example. Virtually all prisoners are male, and only like, 1% of prisoners are female. Does this mean that the system is biased against men, or does it simply mean that men commit more crimes than women? I think it means the latter. 

    2. The part where it says 30% of unarmed blacks were killed compared to 19% unarmed whites. Note that it's 2015. Since 2010, racism has taken huge strides in various directions. The most recent data we have, 2018, shows that unarmed whites are actually killed more than unarmed blacks. 
    Debater123
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    You're pulling a source from 60 years ago man
    PlaffelvohfenDeeJaguarCYDdharta
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 804 Pts   -   edited June 4
    @Jesus

    It seems you believe equal numbers on this chart would point to equality (in brutality), but that is not the case. Whites make up a much larger portion of the populace (61%) as compared to blacks (13%). If blacks were killed at the same rate as whites, then the stats should show 1 or 2 unarmed blacks being killed by police in 2018.

    This is one data point which supports police racism against blacks. Your rebuttal doesn't address this data in any meaningful way. 

    *edit - if it is your position that unarmed blacks are killed by police at a higher rate because they commit more crime, I would ask what crime can be commited without a weapon that warrants capital punishment in the absence of a trial? Are you really attempting to defend the killing of unarmed individuals without specific information?
    PlaffelvohfenpiloteerOakTownA
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    You fail to say why any of your points relates to racism. 

    Also, if it's true that blacks, which only make up 13% of the population, is responsible for most of the crimes, I don't see why it doesn't make sense that blacks are being shot or jailed more than whites. After all, they ARE, statistically speaking, more likely to commit crimes. 

    Just because there is inequality doesn't mean there is inequity.

    Also, you didn't explain how it's because of racism that blacks are being killed. 
    Debater123
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Jesus

    You're pulling a source from 60 years ago man

    Says a guy who possibly thinks racism in the US is a myth ......

    There's really isn't any or that much police racism against blacks...


    LOL
    PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaDebater123IdeaoftheEndless
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    bruv this is why the racism thing is getting very big

    because they dont use logic and just go like ye ye ye shut up 

    Debater123
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 804 Pts   -   edited June 4
    @Jesus

    I must have been editing my last post as you were replying. My edit pre-emptively addressed some of your response. I will add to it though:

    Is it a matter of "blacks commit more crime" or is it really a symptom of something else? It could be (and there are studies to support this) the stats you reference are not indicative of race but of poverty or disadvantage.

    On the other hand, racist police officers have no direct knowledge of disadvantage, but skin color is plain. 


    piloteer
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 3344 Pts   -  
    @Jesus ;

    Consider this.

    Let's say there are two groups, one has 900 people the other has 100 people.

    If you selected 20 people at random, would you expect 10 from each group?

    Easy no. You would expect about 18 from group 1 and 2 from group 2, because the probability is 90% and 10%.

    In the US, Blacks are much less common, yet the number of incarcerations by race doesn't reflect this probability.
    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp

    If everything was equal, we should expect to see the race representation of prison populations be equal to the probability of their representation in society at large.

    If you are Black in the US you are 3x more likely to be incarcerated when compared to whites.

    What this indicates is that there is systemic bias against Blacks because they are so much more likely to end up in jail when compared to everyone else.

    If that doesn't convince you that there is a problem, then nothing will.
    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOneliberalwithmorals
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    Ok for example virtually all people in prison are men, and the percentage of women in prison is very very low.

    What does this mean?

    Does this mean that the system is just biased against men, or does it mean that men simply perform crime much more than women? 

    i really don't believe that 99% of prisoners are men because the system is rigged.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 3344 Pts   -  
    @Jesus ;
    You are trying to draw lines between the sexual dimorphism of our species and race, which is a totally man made concept. Genetically speaking, there could be less difference between a black person and a white person than between two black people because Africa is the most genetically diverse continent. There is strong evidence to suggest that men are more violent than women, but almost none to suggest that there is any differences between the races, which are again, defined by us and do not reflect actual genetic differences.

    If you want to make this argument, then you will have to substantiate it with evidence.
    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOneMonketrunk
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    I'm not black myself, and i don't know why black commit more crime. Also, how can those stats be only indicative of poverty and whatever? It literally only says that 13% of the population is responsible for most of the crime and murders. Maybe my english isn't that good.

    I went back to your post and read what you said:

    "if it is your position that unarmed blacks are killed by police at a higher rate because they commit more crime, I would ask what crime can be committed without a weapon that warrants capital punishment in the absence of a trial? Are you really attempting to defend the killing of unarmed individuals without specific information?"

    Maybe i wasn't clear. Other than those 8 or 7 unjustified shootings, virtually every other one contained a case where the other person had a weapon or was threatening a life. 
    On the other hand, within those 8 or 7 unjustified shootings, aren't they simply police brutality? As of now, there have been more unjustified shootings against whites than on blacks. 
    Police brutality doesn't mean racism. 
    Furthermore, if most cops are racist, why are there only 7 shootings out of the, what, 42 million blacks in the US? I find it hard to believe that a racist police force would only manage to kill 7 people in one year. 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 804 Pts   -   edited June 4
    @Jesus

    As of now, there have been more unjustified shootings against whites than on blacks. 

    If the chart showed police killing twice the number of whites over blacks, it would still point to a bias against blacks because of the much smaller percentage of the population they hold. In short, a higher number of unarmed white men killed by police does not mean there is no bias against a smaller population of blacks. By ratio, more unarmed black men are killed by police than white men. 

    Police brutality doesn't mean racism.

    It does when it disproportionately and consistently affects one race more than another. I've provided information which shows this to be the case in at least one area.

    I find it hard to believe that a racist police force [...]

    I'm not arguing for a racist police force. I have friends who are police officers and know not every police officer is a racist. I am arguing police racism exists though because not every police officer can be a saint.

    Plaffelvohfenpiloteer
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -   edited June 4
    @Skeptical "One it is your position that unarmed blacks are killed by police at a higher rate because they commit more crime, I would ask what crime can be commited without a weapon that warrants capital punishment in the absence of a trial? Are you really attempting to defend the killing of unarmed individuals without specific information?"

    Yes that would be the contention because that number is much more relevant than population.  Unarmed people dont receive captial punsihment on trial because they are already restrained. If they are unarmed it can be easily justified if they attack you.  1. You may not know they are unarmed. 2. If they are unarmed and they attack you, they can take your weapon.


    liberalwithmorals
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 1563 Pts   -   edited June 4
    There is in the USA. That's because excluding federal agents most of the US Police are hillbillies where there only strategy is brute force and total ignorance. And the fact that the USA is still a young nation and a lot of these retarded cops haven't got past this blatant racist mentality.
    Deeliberalwithmorals


    "Tip: Once you aknowledge that you're wrong about somthing and can admit it you're a step closer to actually being right!"  - Bo Bennett, Logically Fallacious: The ultimate collection of over 300 logical fallacies
  • Ok, maybe not most of them but there's definitely a lot of them, and they're an embarrassment to the whole police as well as a total embarrassment to the whole of the US. Some serious re-thinking and reforming of the US police if called for. Because at the moment it's pathetic. I mean no disrespect to any US people here btw.
    liberalwithmorals


    "Tip: Once you aknowledge that you're wrong about somthing and can admit it you're a step closer to actually being right!"  - Bo Bennett, Logically Fallacious: The ultimate collection of over 300 logical fallacies
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -   edited June 5
    Looking at the responses, nobody really considered the fact that the disproportionally large number of incarcerations of Black people might have to do not with some sort of systematic bias against them, but with observed statistics that make them far more likely to warrant such an action against.
    I know from personal experience that Black people tend to be much more aggressive in interactions with police officers, than White or, especially, Asian people. This is not because of their race, and this behavior is understandable, given the bumpy history of the US with regards to racism - nonetheless, it is a factor that cannot be omitted from consideration, and something not a single person in this thread addressed. Which makes me think that the people really want not to find the truth, but to convince themselves that their perceptions describe reality perfectly.
    Then, again, the Blacks also commit disproportionally more crimes - again, not because of the color of their skin, but cultural factors. According to the FBI, the Blacks are responsible for nearly 10 times as many homicides as the Whites, while forming a roughly 6 times smaller population. This means that, when the police is stopping a vehicle with a Black person in it randomly, it is approximately 60 times as likely to catch a homicide offender, than when it is stopping a vehicle with a White person.

    Now, if you ask me, there should not be preventive stopping of any vehicles for any reason. I do not care if someone just blew up a hydrogen bomb in the middle of NYC and trying to escape on a known highway - this is no valid reason to stop random people most of whom have not committed any offences. The police should only take such action against known offenders.
    But, again, nobody raises this point. People are okay with easily avoidable police brutality, it would seem, as long as this brutality is perceived as being applied equally to all "groups" of people. The whole debate seems to be about the perceived bias against Blacks in the police, which has not been demonstrated by anyone properly, with consideration of all relevant statistical factors.
    Which is why these riots only happen when a Black person is killed. I do not remember anything like this happening over a killed person of another race. Many people have this strange historical guilt that makes them believe that horrible actions of (some of) their ancestors must be redeemed by them today somehow, so they champion these mythical ideas of systematic racism, sexism, etc. to have something to go on. It is a usual collectivism: people associate themselves with those they have never had anything to do with and assume responsibility for their actions. Happens all over the world, in various forms; for example, in Japan discussing the role of Japan in World War 2 is still a large taboo in the society, even though almost no one who could reasonably participate in the military actions back then is still around.

    All claims should be based not on wishful thinking, not on sense of duty, not on the image created by the media - but on rigorous logical analysis of facts. Without that, claims are meaningless, unfounded and harmful to the individual making them.
    But it seems that the world largely is moving in the opposite direction: from putting the truth on a pedestal, to discarding it in favor of things that make people feel good about themselves. Countless taboo ideas keep getting created by the society being unwilling to discuss them, while countless mythological ideas which cannot be demonstrated through logic are becoming accepted and exempted from questioning. If I say what I just said, say, at my university in public - statements that, really, are not at all controversial, if logic alone is to be the metric of their validity - then I may have to publicly apologise for my words offending a lot of people, to avoid having trouble with keeping my employment. Why? Are universities not supposed to be places for truth seeking? They are, but this is not what they are any more.

    When I raise these points in discussions with my friends from the Russian undergraduate program in physics I was attending up until half a decade ago, none of this they see as controversial. There, while the society took a different path to run away from truth, the truth has also been largely escaped by the people - however, for various reasons, impartial discussions of racial and sexual problems are still not tabooed, so intelligent people are able to appreciate reasonable arguments.
    On the West, however, even otherwise incredibly intelligent and intellectually honest people suddenly put some sort of a mental ward and begin repeating blindly something the society has convinced them is true, as soon as these topics are touched. The US, of all places, which has served for centuries as a vanguard of liberty and independent thinking, has ultimately been consumed by mythological approach to truth. Of course, this approach is not new, and from the very beginning, for example, Christianity - a completely mythological world view - was one of the predominant ideologies. Nonetheless, up until the last ~100 years, there were no real taboo topics and beliefs in the society, aside maybe from everything related to suppression of sexuality by the prudence of the culture. It is only then, with McCarthyism, misguided human rights movements and, now, with misguided social media consumers, that the US started to resemble the rest of the world in this aspect, in many ways surpassing it in the degree to which these discussions are marginalised.

    I could write many books about this effect, but something I have concluded a while ago from thinking about this all is that there is a much more important war going on than any wars, real or symbolic, that have ever happened in the Western world throughout the last 250 years: war on truth. It is no longer in fashion to defend the Enlightenment ideas of truth seeking regardless of its implications; now it is the implications that are supreme, and if they are inconvenient, then the truth they are derived from must be discarded and never talked about.
    This is truly a worrying phenomenon, and it will destroy civilisation as we know it if it is let to run for a few more generations. The world will go back to the dark ages, when clerics and kings told people what to believe and how to live. What the Middle East largely looks like today will be what the West looks like - and not because of Islam or other specific Middle-Eastern features, but because of the same societal disregard for truth. Without truth, there can only be mysticism, and history is full of examples of where it ultimately leads.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Jesus

    bruv this is why the racism thing is getting very big

    because they dont use logic and just go like ye ye ye shut up 


    Thank you for that “wonderful” example of logic everyone is not using 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Looking at the responses, nobody really considered the fact that the disproportionally large number of incarcerations of Black people might have to do not with some sort of systematic bias against them, but with observed statistics that make them far more likely to warrant such an action against.


    Does bias not exist against them in the US?


    I know from personal experience that Black people tend to be much more aggressive in interactions with police officers, than White or, especially, Asian people. 

    That’s purely anecdotal , can you back it up with anything substantial?


    This is not because of their race, and this behavior is understandable, given the bumpy history of the US with regards to racism - nonetheless, it is a factor that cannot be omitted from consideration, and something not a single person in this thread addressed. 

    Well I didn’t know it was a fact , to be honest it seems like a sweeping generalization 


    Which makes me think that the people really want not to find the truth, but to convince themselves that their perceptions describe reality perfectly.

    But isn’t this exactly what you are doing? Seriously would you have felt the same during the protests in the U S in the 1960’s if not why not?


    Then, again, the Blacks also commit disproportionally more crimes - again, not because of the color of their skin, but cultural factors. According to the FBI, the Blacks are responsible for nearly 10 times as many homicides as the Whites, while forming a roughly 6 times smaller population. This means that, when the police is stopping a vehicle with a Black person in it randomly, it is approximately 60 times as likely to catch a homicide offender, than when it is stopping a vehicle with a White person.


    Yes everyone knows about the crime stats and even blacks acknowledge this , but surely a heavy handed display by police when dealing with people of any color is totally unjust?


    Now, if you ask me, there should not be preventive stopping of any vehicles for any reason. I do not care if someone just blew up a hydrogen bomb in the middle of NYC and trying to escape on a known highway - this is no valid reason to stop random people most of whom have not committed any offences. The police should only take such action against known offenders.


    I don’t agree with that , are you saying after another 9/11 have no police check - points?


    But, again, nobody raises this point. People are okay with easily avoidable police brutality, it would seem, as long as this brutality is perceived as being applied equally to all "groups" of people. 


     I’m against all police brutality.


    The whole debate seems to be about the perceived bias against Blacks in the police, which has not been demonstrated by anyone properly, with consideration of all relevant statistical factors........


    I note you put in .... with consideration of all relevant statistical factors........


    This I’m afraid may turn into a stat battle ....

    New York Times .....


    Just one example below .....

    About 20 percent of Minneapolis’s population of 430,000 is black. But when the police get physical — with kicks, neck holds, punches, shoves, takedowns, Mace, Tasers or other forms of muscle — nearly 60 percent of the time the person subject to that force is black. And that is according to the city’s own figures.

    Police shootings and use of force against black people in Minneapolis since 2015


    Note: Cases for which location was not listed or that occurred outside city limits are not shown.

    Community leaders say the frequency with which the police use force against black residents helps explain a fury in the city that goes beyond Mr. Floyd’s death, which the medical examiner ruled a homicide.

    Since 2015, the Minneapolis police have documented using force about 11,500 times. For at least 6,650 acts of force, the subject of that force was black.

    By comparison, the police have used force about 2,750 times against white people, who make up about 60 percentof the population.

    All of that means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.



    Which is why these riots only happen when a Black person is killed. I do not remember anything like this happening over a killed person of another race. Many people have this strange historical guilt that makes them believe that horrible actions of (some of) their ancestors must be redeemed by them today somehow, so they champion these mythical ideas of systematic racism, sexism, etc. to have something to go on. 


    I have no “historical guilt” when I watch from across the world a thug in uniform being killed in a brutal fashion by a representative of law and order in the US I’m horrified , if he was white , Yellow , pink or blue I would feel the same way 


    I don’t need something to “go on “ I’m championing no cause except appeal to humanity , your police force needs reforming they are a bunch of heavy handed  thugs 


    It is a usual collectivism: people associate themselves with those they have never had anything to do with and assume responsibility for their actions. Happens all over the world, in various forms; for example, in Japan discussing the role of Japan in World War 2 is still a large taboo in the society, even though almost no one who could reasonably participate in the military actions back then is still around.


    That’s another sweeping generalistion and I think an example of assuming everyone thinks this way as it suits your narrative  


    All claims should be based not on wishful thinking, not on sense of duty, not on the image created by the media - but on rigorous logical analysis of facts. Without that, claims are meaningless, unfounded and harmful to the individual making them.


    But first you have to prove all claims mine included are based on this  , I’m surprised at you of all people firing off and applying a load of labels to people merely based on your opinion backed by no reasoning 



    But it seems that the world largely is moving in the opposite direction: from putting the truth on a pedestal, to discarding it in favor of things that make people feel good about themselves. 


    What’s the truth?


    Countless taboo ideas keep getting created by the society being unwilling to discuss them, while countless mythological ideas which cannot be demonstrated through logic are becoming accepted and exempted from questioning. 


    Like what ? I question everything, why do you make and keep making sweeping generalizations and applying them to everyone?


    If I say what I just said, say, at my university in public - statements that, really, are not at all controversial, if logic alone is to be the metric of their validity - then I may have to publicly apologise for my words offending a lot of people, to avoid having trouble with keeping my employment


    Like what give an example?


    . Why? Are universities not supposed to be places for truth seeking? They are, but this is not what they are any more.


    Yes but your opinions are your own , you can speak with freedom about them to colleagues during your downtime but not during work time as it’s not relevant is it?


    When I raise these points in discussions with my friends from the Russian undergraduate program in physics I was attending up until half a decade ago, none of this they see as controversial. There, while the society took a different path to run away from truth, the truth has also been largely escaped by the people - however, for various reasons, impartial discussions of racial and sexual problems are still not tabooed, so intelligent people are able to appreciate reasonable arguments.


    You can say what you want to others in most societies except in the work place as you’re there to work not engage in philosophical musings



    On the West, however, even otherwise incredibly intelligent and intellectually honest people suddenly put some sort of a mental ward and begin repeating blindly something the society has convinced them is true, as soon as these topics are touched. The US, of all places, which has served for centuries as a vanguard of liberty and independent thinking, has ultimately been consumed by mythological approach to truth. Of course, this approach is not new, and from the very beginning, for example, Christianity - a completely mythological world view - was one of the predominant ideologies. Nonetheless, up until the last ~100 years, there were no real taboo topics and beliefs in the society, aside maybe from everything related to suppression of sexuality by the prudence of the culture. It is only then, with McCarthyism, misguided human rights movements and, now, with misguided social media consumers, that the US started to resemble the rest of the world in this aspect, in many ways surpassing it in the degree to which these discussions are marginalised.



    There are many things about societies I and others don’t like as in over the top PC type language , I voice my opinion about this and other matters but am swimming against a tide that’s not going to change , that’s life 


    I could write many books about this effect, but something I have concluded a while ago from thinking about this all is that there is a much more important war going on than any wars, real or symbolic, that have ever happened in the Western world throughout the last 250 years: war on truth. 


    That’s been the case since the dawn of time 


    It is no longer in fashion to defend the Enlightenment ideas of truth seeking regardless of its implications; now it is the implications that are supreme, and if they are inconvenient, then the truth they are derived from must be discarded and never talked about.


    Again what’s the truth?


    This is truly a worrying phenomenon, and it will destroy civilisation as we know it if it is let to run for a few more generations. The world will go back to the dark ages, when clerics and kings told people what to believe and how to live. What the Middle East largely looks like today will be what the West looks like - and not because of Islam or other specific Middle-Eastern features, but because of the same societal disregard for truth. 


    Truth ? A sizable amount of Americans think Trump is a messiah ?


    People clap like seals when Trump wails about injustice in other countries yet signs an arms deal( 370 billion )  with Saudi Arabia a country that treats people like dogs

    People and governments worldwide talk about ending world hunger yet watch on as nothing is done when over a million people die of starvation in North Korea 


    When you find out what the truth is let me know 

    Without truth, there can only be mysticism, and history is full of examples of where it ultimately leads.

    Everyone’s truth is different to yours 

    Plaffelvohfen
  • JaguarJaguar 99 Pts   -   edited June 5
    Jesus said:
    @Dee

    You're pulling a source from 60 years ago man
    "The point I'm trying to make is that history teaches us about the past so we can prepare for the future, understand the present, and gives us examples of how to do things right and wrong." These were your words right?@Jesus
    A source from 60 years ago can be classified into history right ? Am i wrong? 
    DeePlaffelvohfen
    Whatever happens , happens . Just go with the flow.
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    the problem though is that people are saying the entire US is racist because of one cop
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    ur just proving my point, u say nothing but sarcasm and stuff like cmon this is a persuade me meaning that saying shut it ur dumb doesnt help 
    ur kinda just a jer k  bro
  • JesusJesus 83 Pts   -  
    @Jaguar

    Okay you're getting the wrong idea. Yes, it's true that slavery was a thing in the past, so it is classified as history. Racism in the past taught us that it's bad to be racist. I think that most of us here can all agree to that. However, saying that we used to be racist 60 years ago doesn't prove that we must be racist now. 
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Jesus

    ur just proving my point, u say nothing but sarcasm and stuff like cmon this is a persuade me meaning that saying shut it ur dumb doesnt help 
    ur kinda just a jer k  bro


    Right , fabulous argument 
    JaguarPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • all4acttall4actt 146 Pts   -  
    The most recent racial breakdown I could find of unarmed suspect shot and killed by police was from 2017 and is as follows: 

    Black (49)
     
     Hispanic (34)
     
     Native American (2)
     
     Asian/Pacific Islander (2)
     
     White (51)
     
     Unknown (11)

    Monketrunk
  • piloteerpiloteer 1007 Pts   -  
    It doesn't matter what police officers think about anybody, what truly matters is that some police officers ignore guidelines for engagement, and instead they base their policy of engagement  on whatever moral standards they think they have. Instead of using the proper guidelines of engagement, or the constitution, some use their subjective sense of morality and seek to use that as their policy for engagement instead. That is immoral from top to bottom. If your job requires you to abide by certain guidelines, then those guidelines are the only objective code that should be used as your standard. If your job requires you to be a robot and set aside any personal emotions, values, beliefs, or individually held moral standard, and you cannot do that, you must be held accountable for any actions you've done that deviated from the mission or requirement of your job.         
    PlaffelvohfenMonketrunk
  • There definitely is racist within the police and not even the police force alone, but in pretty much all occupations there possible are. To say that there can’t be, is quite ridicule and sounds a bit ignorant. There are definitely scenarios when the police push things very too far and ultimately have approached poc in an I peculiar way. Not to mention that some of these police officers may still even have racism within their families that have pasted on from generation to generation, not to say that poc don’t either, but poc did struggle for vasts if amount time. Some people mistaken racism with lousy police training though, having them go through 6 months of academy to then be gifted a gun and badge doesn’t seem to be the best strategy, considering that you don’t even need a former education besides maybe even a diploma. Racism is still in the root of America, it’s just no politician or common civilian can just magically make that go away because at the end of the day someone is going to believe what they want to believe. @Jesus
  • Jesus said:
    @Dee

    u say nothing but sarcasm and stuff like cmon this is a persuade me meaning that saying shut it ur dumb doesnt help 
    ur kinda just a jer k  bro
    I think @Dee has a point, especially when you come out with stuff like "ur just proving my point"
    DeePlaffelvohfen


    "Tip: Once you aknowledge that you're wrong about somthing and can admit it you're a step closer to actually being right!"  - Bo Bennett, Logically Fallacious: The ultimate collection of over 300 logical fallacies
  • BrandyKnightBrandyKnight 62 Pts   -  
      I, personally, hate being judged by people who don't know anything about me, my life, my beliefs and my personal truth. I have never met anyone who does. When someone here attacks someone else's character, they are immediately shut down. What makes it ok to do that with police officers? I know that there are racist police officers of all races because there are racist people of all races. Does that constitute demonizing honorable men and women who devote their lives to protecting and defending the innocent? When I call 911 I am thankful for those who show up without knowing what color my skin is or what beliefs I have. I can even hate them, yet they are still going to show up and get paid little to nothing for their sacrifices. They are in inner cities where no one else will go. They show in projects where even toddlers are being murdered without discrimination. For anyone who is not a police officer who is subjected to this type of violence every single day, we have no right to judge. I do not support actions of renegades or rogue cops who have no respect for anyone, Their actions are just as criminal as the next criminal. However, don't disrespect our front line protectors that we call without reservation, knowing that they will show up. The criminals among them will be weeded out. We will get what we deserve when we go to call them because we need them and they choose not show up. At this point, I would not blame them. 
    PlaffelvohfenDee
  • @SkepticalOne

    I find it almost humorous that you would add a chart showing how LITTLE the amount of black people killed in america was in 2018. In fact there were more white people than black.
       The entire BLM movement is a media ploy and a pro-democrat movement. I don't support the BLM movement, I support people. Black,White,Hispanic,Asian, ect.
       Also if you want to get into the issue of police I can give it to you simply. Police are not the reason that these people die, they die because of their own decisions. I will show you a list of more recent offenders and victims.

    George Floyd- Convicted of 8 crimes including, Home invasion and aggravated assault.

    Breonna Taylor- Although she had no official record at the time she dated a drug dealer and Breonna had a LEGAL warrant out for her arrest,

    Jacob Blake- Convicted of 4 crimes including, sexual assault and trespassing.

    This is just a short list but it goes to show you why the police had a right to use lethal force. All of these people had one thing that got them killed, and it's not their skin color. It's there inability to comply with simple instructions form law officers.
    Monketrunk
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    Graphic showing the use of force by US police involving a gun across neighbourhoods based on racial compositionFig 1Fig 1Black men are far more likely than black women to say theyve been unfairly stopped by the police
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616
    Well youd also have to show whether the use of force was warranted.  

    As far as the last article.  Does that mean police are sexist against men?
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    Fig 1
    unarmed people!
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616 I didnt know you cant be violent without a firearm.

    "Black men are more likely than black women to say theyve been unfairly stopped by police"

    Are they sexist? I havent heard Mens lives matters.
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    your argument isnt based on gender we are trying to focus on race to stop changing the subject.
    even if some one is violent and unarmed shooting them is very very rarely a suitable option. try idk a taser
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616. Your the one who posted an article that brought sex into it.  If you are basing your conclusions solely on your post youd believe the police is sexist.  If not then why should i not question the others?

    Apparently there is no liklihood that the cop is overpowered and the criminal takes their gun. Tasers arent always effective.  I dont think a cop shoild have to take that chance.  If your violent towards the police they can shoot you.
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616. Your the one who posted an article that brought sex into it.  If you are basing your conclusions solely on your post youd believe the police is sexist.  If not then why should i not question the others?

    Apparently there is no liklihood that the cop is overpowered and the criminal takes their gun. Tasers arent always effective.  I dont think a cop shoild have to take that chance.  If your violent towards the police they can shoot you.
    the focus of the articles was race and gender happened to be included. yes, I do police are sexist but that's not what I'm here to debate.
    just because tasers aren't always 100% effective doesn't mean that lethal force is required. by becoming a cop they are taking a chance and putting them selves in danger to PROTECT OTHERS not to protect themsleves.
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616 @MichaelElpers @JeffreyBlankenship ;@BrandyKnight @ZeusAres42 @piloteer @SkepticalOne @Jesus @Happy_Killbot @Dee @Jaguar @MayCaesar @all4actt @Rashad_the_Debator03 (I'm pinging everyone for this thing I'm at to post) Let's look at the numbers, shall we? According to Law enforcement today (https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/police-brutality-race-numbers/) in 2018, there were only 47 cases of the police killing unarmed people, half of these people were killed unjustly, where they did not resist the arrest or force the officer to attack, meaning that there were only 22 instances of police brutality(police brutality, in my opinion, is when a police officer uses unjust force, deadly or not deadly onto a person who has not resisted arrest). Meaning that an extremely small amount of cases of police brutality have led to death. Also, how does this tie up to the argument, "There really isn't any racism against blacks by the police..." Police racism is very often expressed through violence, specifically unjust violence, or police brutality, and police brutality just doesn't exist, you get around ~22 cases of it a year, and out of 600k officers, that doesn't really say much about the police as a whole being racist towards black people.
    Happy_Killbot
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 3344 Pts   -  
    @Debater123 ;
    So you are saying that it is okay that ~22 people a year are unfairly killed by the police? You know, most serial killers only kill a few people each year, I guess you think they are okay then.

    Also, how do you account for the higher instance of Blacks and Hispanics in prisons if not due to racial profiling and systemic repression? With only 13% of the population, they make up more than their fair share of the prison system. A little suspicious don't you think?

    US incarceration rates by race  Prison Policy Initiative
    DeeDebater123
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • all4acttall4actt 146 Pts   -  
    I wish I could say that you were correct about there being no racist law enforcement officers but then I would be ignoring the fact that there is.  The thing that people get wrong is that they believe that those prejudices are the thinking of the majority.  

    As for the disproportionate statistics of black people or people of color I believe has more to do with the disproportionate numbers of the same classes being in poverty.  I think if you were to stop looking at a persons skin color and focus more on everyone of every race that are serving time in prison you would find that it has more to do with income disparity, their and their upbringing.  No I am in no way blaming all parents of prisoner.  Although, having worked with juvenile 602's I can confedently say that more than 60% of them had parents that had life long criminal careers of their own.  

    Having worked with 602's I didn't see anyone who was convicted because of their race.  If you want to call them victims.  I would say a good majority are victims of lifes circumstance others are just criminals.  Also if you are not wealthy you are not going to be able to afford a good lawyer.  You will be stuck with a  overworked public defender who doesn't have the time, money or a lot of time the willingness to mount a good defense and tend to try and plea the case away rather than actually defend the client.

    A real difference that could make the judicial process more fair would be to find a way to fund decent defenses for everyone.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -   edited November 20
    @Debater123

    You really are an Ostrich you bury your head in the sand at anything remotely approaching reality , you’re from a country that segregated blacks up the 1960’s and you think that long held idea of white Americans feeling of superiority just went away in a puff of smoke?

    Blacks continue to suffer in the US because of their skin colour the internationally recognised PEW research centre totally disagrees with your assertions as do I 

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/03/10-things-we-know-about-race-and-policing-in-the-u-s/
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @Dee It didn't go away in a puff of smoke, it died in the 1980s, everyone suffers in the US based on their race and ethnicity, I'm not denying that racism doesn't exist, it exists everywhere, it just isn't very prevalent in the police force or America anymore.
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot I'm not saying it's okay for 22 people die, but it's not something to make such a big deal about, every race suffers from police brutality and racism, it's inevitable, but there isn't much racism now against blacks, not in the police force, and not in society, also, blacks suffer from higher incarceration rates because they murder around 600% more, rape 150% more, and rob 300% more then white people, the majority, black people have the most murders in the USA, with over 50% of murders being committed by black people, specifically black on black.
    CrystalSky101
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    t didn't go away in a puff of smoke, it died in the 1980s,

    Ahhh racism died in the 80’s in the US apart from your opinion what do you base this on 

    everyone suffers in the US based on their race and ethnicity,

    Really? So everyone is racist in the US do tell?

    I'm not denying that racism doesn't exist, it exists everywhere,

    Yes you’ve said everyone is racist 

    it just isn't very prevalent in the police force or America anymore.

    Right, so again it’s not an American problem anymore must be everywhere else so .......every argument you make you contradict yourself I bet you didn’t even look at the PEW link ......bury your head in the sand again 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 3344 Pts   -  
    @Debater123 ;
    I'm not saying it's okay for 22 people die, but it's not something to make such a big deal about, every race suffers from police brutality and racism, it's inevitable, but there isn't much racism now against blacks, not in the police force, and not in society, also, blacks suffer from higher incarceration rates because they murder around 600% more, rape 150% more, and rob 300% more then white people, the majority, black people have the most murders in the USA, with over 50% of murders being committed by black people, specifically black on black.
    Okay, so you just think that black people are inherently more violent, which leads to more murder and theft because they are closer to animals then men, yeah that makes everything acceptable then. /s

    Has it occurred to you that they might have higher crime rates because of systemic repression? That being poor and not having their voices heard has made it so that they are more likely to turn to crime in order to defend themselves?

    Money isn't the root of all evil, it is lack of money which is.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeCrystalSky101
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Dee. Im curious if you took the time to read your link.  It doesnt really even post any significant data.  All the positions are based on how people feel, not actual objective data.

    Also the last one shows that police are more reluctant to question or use force.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    I’m curious to know why you think people’s perceptions black and white agree blacks are unfairly treated and targeted?

    They’re all making it up?
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot. I dont think black people are inherently more violent, i think history and culture has created a negative mentality that is plaguing the black community.  Even standup black citizens will claim theyve been called white or uncle toms by members of their own community because theyre a model citizen.

    These issues create disproportionate crime rates inside the black community.  So it is not the polices fault they are arresting disproportionately more blacks, they are just arresting criminals as they should be.

    There is a cultural problem that needs to be solved.  Claiming there is widespread racism in america or in the police without evidence isnt going to solve it, it actually exacerbates it. Just throwing money at the issue doesnt help either, some extra cash doesnt change people.  
    What needs to happen is the actual issue needs to be recognized, and incentives need to be created to help individuals realize they dont have to be victims it is possible to achieve in America with hard work.
    CrystalSky101
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -   edited November 20
    @Dee. Mostly the media.  The more unrest the cause the better they do.  If we all got along what would they have to talk about?

    They manipulate people with evidence that looks right on its face but doesnt examine thr deeper factors or causes.

    If pew had objective evidence why wouldnt they show that instead of playing on emotion?
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