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Is eating meat immoral?
in Philosophy

By xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 302 Pts
I would think not and I would be interested to hear everyone's reasons why they do or don't.
  1. Live Poll

    Do you think eating meat is immoral?

    13 votes
    1. Yes
        7.69%
    2. No
      92.31%
«1



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Arguments

  • Nothing wrong with eating meat

     

    Humans are by their very nature omnivores. A healthy diet should include some meat, as it is the most effective way to obtain many necessary nutrients. Animals can certainly be killed in a humane nature for human consumption. Any objection to the idea of eating meat is simply a personal choice, and it is false moralism to apply it to every one. Eating meat is natural. It's that simple.

    No

     

    It is not immoral to eat meat. It is part of the life cycle. If it were immoral to eat meat that all the carnivores of this world are immoral and the people that have lived generations before us were immoral. Any one who know anything about farming knows how well most of this animals are treated.

    xlJ_dolphin_473ScienceRules
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    While eating meat is not immoral . I do think some practices of factory farming can be seen that way . We pump livestock with tons of growth hormones to bring them to market size faster and to decrease the end cost of said meat . That in my opinion is why so many Americans and other cultures who eat a lot of meat tend to have more weight related health issues well that and the tons of sugar / corn syrup that is in most of our food now 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • It absolutely is if you're a vegan...  If you're not a vegan, then it really is not...
    DeexlJ_dolphin_473Asher34
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • It also depends on if you are a vegetarian
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    It absolutely is if you're a vegan...  If you're not a vegan, then it really is not...
    To me the way militant vegans are immoral for how they attack people who chose to eat meat . 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1493 Pts
    edited June 5
    Asher34 said:
    It absolutely is if you're a vegan...  If you're not a vegan, then it really is not...
    To me the way militant vegans are immoral for how they attack people who chose to eat meat . 
    The way some militant vegans may act, says absolutely nothing about the morality of eating meat, which is the question debated...

    Feel free to make a debate about the morality of attacking people we disagree with if you want... But understand that it is another subject and thus irrelevant to the current discussion...      
    DeexlJ_dolphin_473
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen Let me guess you are a vegan and want to use force to make others not eat meat ? 
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42Dee
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    edited June 5
    Humans are omnivores we have evolved to eat meat fruits veg and some carbs . So no again eating meat in and of itself is not immoral 
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1493 Pts
    edited June 5
    @Asher34

    Ah nope, I'm an unrepentant carnivore... Your comment is still irrelevant to this debate... Maybe you just didn't understand what I wrote?
    Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Asher34

    Ah nope, I'm an unrepentant carnivore... Your comment is still irrelevant to this debate... Maybe you just didn't understand what I wrote?
    Misunderstanding then . I too prefer meat to any other food 
  • piloteerpiloteer 839 Pts
    It is, but not because it causes an animals death, but because it is absolutely abhorrent the damage that is caused to the environment because of meat processing.  
  • piloteerpiloteer 839 Pts
    edited June 6
    Asher34 said:
    While eating meat is not immoral . I do think some practices of factory farming can be seen that way . We pump livestock with tons of growth hormones to bring them to market size faster and to decrease the end cost of said meat . That in my opinion is why so many Americans and other cultures who eat a lot of meat tend to have more weight related health issues well that and the tons of sugar / corn syrup that is in most of our food now 
    @Asher34

    Sorry, but you're wrong. If there weren't hormones pumped into our meat, do you actually think they'd be free of any growth hormones? The growth hormones used in cattle has been shown that it doesn't put any measurable effect on individual animals themselves. It just increases the meat output for the entire herd. The amount of growth hormones put into each animal is about as much as one blade of grass on a football field, and all the other grass is the natural growth hormones already found in the animal. This sounds like the old wives tale about how growth hormones in milk are causing young girls to reach puberty faster than normal. It's your cut of the mill anti-science rhetoric. GMO's, and vaccines, and growth hormones were not created to kill us or control our brains.    
  • piloteer said:
    It is, but not because it causes an animals death, but because it is absolutely abhorrent the damage that is caused to the environment because of meat processing.  
    Well, if we care to be precise, the mass production of processed meat would be the immoral thing to do from an environmental perspective, and I'd have to agree with that... Eating the meat still wouldn't be morally reprehensible and hey, can't let'em road kills go a-wastin' ya know... D'be a shame...
    SkepticalOne
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • piloteerpiloteer 839 Pts
    piloteer said:
    It is, but not because it causes an animals death, but because it is absolutely abhorrent the damage that is caused to the environment because of meat processing.  
    Well, if we care to be precise, the mass production of processed meat would be the immoral thing to do from an environmental perspective, and I'd have to agree with that... Eating the meat still wouldn't be morally reprehensible and hey, can't let'em road kills go a-wastin' ya know... D'be a shame...
    Skunk is actually pretty tender if you know how to fillet them. Ya, I'd say the only moral argument against eating meat is the damage that is caused to the environment. When all of our meat is cultured meat, the vegans are just gonna sit there with their little pouty faces and arms folded while we bite into a hunk of chicken.  
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

     To me the way militant vegans are immoral for how they attack people who chose to eat meat . 


     To me the way militant meat eaters are immoral for how they attack people who chose to not eat meat . 
    xlJ_dolphin_473Asher34
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    Animals suffer pain just like humans we know this to be true ,how is animal suffering as in pain different to human suffering ?
  • Dee said:
    @Asher34

     To me the way militant vegans are immoral for how they attack people who chose to eat meat . 


     To me the way militant meat eaters are immoral for how they attack people who chose to not eat meat . 
    But they don't... do they? I realise this is a sweeping generalisation, and for that I apologise, but militant meat eaters tend not to attack vegans. There are a multitude of "rights for animals" protests, but no "rights for omnivores" protests. And I don't agree that it's immoral to attack those you disagree with.
  • Dee said:
    Animals suffer pain just like humans we know this to be true ,how is animal suffering as in pain different to human suffering ?
    @Dee We can still care about protecting animals from pain and suffering without being vegans. When farming, we humans tend to kill animals in the most efficient and painless way possible. We would not do this if we didn't care for the animals...
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    We can still care about protecting animals from pain and suffering without being vegans.

    Who is "we" ? What do you base this on when the majority of animals for consumption come from the barbaric practice of factory farming?

    When farming, we humans tend to kill animals in the most efficient and painless way possible.

    I don't believe that 

    We would not do this if we didn't care for the animals..

    You cannot speak for others and how does caring for an animal result in killing it?

    Why does an animal deserve to die?
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    But they don't... do they? 

    How do you know this globally to be the case ?

    I realise this is a sweeping generalisation, and for that I apologise, but militant meat eaters tend
    not to attack vegans.

    Again I don't know this 

    There are a multitude of "rights for animals" protests, but no "rights for omnivores" protests

    How did you make this out? Are you not free to launch a protest ?

    . And I don't agree that it's immoral to attack those you disagree with.

    I never mentioned morality as it's all subjective anyway 
  • Dee said:

    We can still care about protecting animals from pain and suffering without being vegans.

    Who is "we" ? What do you base this on when the majority of animals for consumption come from the barbaric practice of factory farming?
    Us as humans. And on what basis is factory farming a 'barbaric practice'?
    Dee said:
    When farming, we humans tend to kill animals in the most efficient and painless way possible.

    I don't believe that 
    Here in the UK at least, farmers are legally bound to stun animals first before killing them, thus ensuring that they feel minimal or no pain. 

    Dee said:
    You cannot speak for others and how does caring for an animal result in killing it?
    I can speak for others. What I meant is that there would not be laws relating to killing the animals painlessly if humans did not generally care for animals.
    Dee said:
    Why does an animal deserve to die?
    Because the only reason it exists is to serve our desire for meat as humans.

    I have answered all your questions.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    edited June 6
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    Us as humans. And on what basis is factory farming a 'barbaric practice'?


    How do you speak for humanity in general? Factory farming exploits animals, cramming them together and abusing them in an effort to boost productivity, prior to slaughter 


    Here in the UK at least, farmers are legally bound to stun animals first before killing them, thus ensuring that they feel minimal or no pain. 


    But the majority of animals are still factory farmed , and why should a human have the right to kill an animal?


    I can speak for others. 


    Really ? How do you make that out?


    What I meant is that there would not be laws relating to killing the animals painlessly if humans did not generally care for animals.


    How does caring for an animal involve killing it?


    Because the only reason it exists is to serve our desire for meat as humans.


    According to you, your assertions do not make this true , what is the reason you exist seeing as you claim to know why animals exist ? You see pain and suffering as irrelevant once your desire is fulfilled 


    I have answered all your questions.


    As I expected , it is a debate site after all, 

  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Dee I do not like the practices of many factory farming companies . I get much of my meat from small independant farms or from the few animals I can keep on my land ie chickens goats and a few pigs , I hire out raising of the cows . I also hunt fish and trap . let me assume you still find that immoral as you like to be purposely obtuse to any perspective other  than your own. I have not bought meat from a supermarket in 4 years at least . Real grass fed beef is miles better than the corn fed crap that fills the shelves of mega marts . 
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

    I do not like the practices of many factory farming companies . I get much of my meat from small independant farms or from the few animals I can keep on my land ie chickens goats and a few pigs , I hire out raising of the cows . I also hunt fish and trap . let me assume you still find that immoral

    Where did I say this? You never even asked my position on the subject 


    as you like to be purposely obtuse to any perspective other  than your own.

    I don’t , I’m asking questions regarding why you and others act and make the choices they make , why do you get so upset over this?

     I have not bought meat from a supermarket in 4 years at least . Real grass fed beef is miles better than the corn fed crap that fills the shelves of mega marts . 

    I couldn’t care less,if you wish to eat meat and slaughter animals at least be man enough to admit it and stand by your choices 
  • @Dee
    why should a human have the right to kill an animal
    Does a lion has a right to kill a gazelle? Does a fox has a right to kill a rabbit? Do animal have a right to kill other animals?
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    edited June 6
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Does a lion has a right to kill a gazelle?
    Does a fox has a right to kill a rabbit?
     Do animal have a right to kill other animals?

    I don’t believe they have the ability to reason regards such matters as what they do is instinctual , we do have the ability to reason which is why we all come to different conclusions on the matter 
    PlaffelvohfenAsher34
  • @Dee

    So you think our moral duties (as subjective as they may be) extend to include other species? How so?
    Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    edited June 6
    @Dee I am man enough to stand by my choices . I can also take that as a threat by some soy sucking vegan fem boi . Do you condone militant vegans attacking non vegans . I am not a fan of fur coats but I do not condone the willful destruction of property that Vegan PETA members do with paint to that persons property . Humans require protein fats and amino acids found in animal meat . Yes lab meat and plant based proteins exist but 1 they are not yet cost effective 2 plant based protein tastes bad . 3 meat is good 4 Sane people like good tasting food 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

     I am man enough to stand by my choices

    Right so slaughter away 

    . I can also take that as a threat by some soy sucking vegan fem boi .

    Really ? Who are you referring to ?

    Do you condone militant vegans attacking non vegans .

    I couldn’t give a fly...I guess f..k either way 

     I am not a fan of fur coats but I do not condone the willful destruction of property that Vegan PETA members do with paint to that persons property .

    Well good for you , you could put that on your headstone and everyone would possibly think you a “great guy” 

    Humans require protein fats and amino acids found in animal meat .

    Right guess that means all those who don’t eat meat suffer horribly , most come as a shock to a large proportion of the Indian population?

    Yes lab meat and plant based proteins exist but 1 they are not yet cost effective 2 plant based protein tastes bad . 3 meat is good 4 Sane people like good tasting food  

    But you’re not sane as you claimed in a previous post . Why are you telling me what’s good for me ? You never listen to what others say such is your raging ego attempting to push your points 
    Asher34
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    edited June 6
    @Plaffelvohfen

    So you think our moral duties (as subjective as they may be) extend to include other species?

    No I don’t believe I have a “moral duty “ not can I say you have or others have I’m interested in how others reach these decisions and  curious how they come by them 

    If one claims to like meat they cannot then make the ridiculous argument that they actually care about animal suffering ,  I prefer if one at least states “ yes I love meat and I don’t care about animal sufffering “ it’s the total dishonesty that gets to me , it’s an attempt to “justify “ a belief because the thought of animal suffering makes them seem brutal and uncaring 


    Asher34Plaffelvohfen
  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Dee
    Look a person can enjoy meat as well as care about animal suffering . Do you think all us evil by your standards meat eaters condone or participate in animal abuse ? No raising livstock animals in non factory farm conditions is not animal abuse . So since poor people in india do not eat meat everyone must be forced to live as they do ? Wow you are some far leftist athoritaian if you think that . 
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • @Dee

    I certainly agree that it is quite peculiar to claim that killing animals is to effectively show one's concern for animal suffering... The only instance where this would make sense is when an animal is either terminally ill or injured... It's incongruent in any other instance...  
    Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I certainly agree that it is quite peculiar to claim that killing animals is to effectively show one's concern for animal suffering...

    It’s a bizarre claim, it’s as if people want the approval of all parties  for their life choices , why even give a f..k what people think?


    The only instance where this would make sense is when an animal is either terminally ill or injured... It's incongruent in any other instance...  


    I totally agree 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

    Look a person can enjoy meat as well as care about animal suffering

    How is killing an animal demonstrating care ? 

    . Do you think all us evil by your standards meat eaters condone or participate in animal abuse ? 

    I don’t believe in evil and what are my standards ? You still haven’t asked my position on the subject , you’re totally oblivious to what others say on account of your need to push you raging ego driven views 


    No raising livstock animals in non factory farm conditions is not animal abuse

    Yet hunting animals is not abuse either ? I never said raising animals is abuse 

    So since poor people in india do not eat meat everyone must be forced to live as they do ?

    Who said that? A sizable amount of people  in India choose to be vegetarian 

     Wow you are some far leftist athoritaian if you think that

    But I don’t , but don’t let that stop you making up your usual BS when beaten in debate 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Dee said:
    @xlJ_dolphin_473
    How do you speak for humanity in general? Factory farming exploits animals, cramming them together and abusing them in an effort to boost productivity, prior to slaughter 
    @Dee
    My point is that these animals only exist so that we can eat them, so we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. Besides, your image of factory farming is way off. New regulations have banned these kind of farming conditions, and replace them with 'enriched cages' - in the case of chickens, these are cages that allow birds to perch and express more bird-like behaviour.
    Dee said:
    @xlJ_dolphin_473
    But the majority of animals are still factory farmed , and why should a human have the right to kill an animal?
    Because the animal only exists to serve our desire for meat as humans.
    Dee said:
    Really ? How do you make that out?
    I do not understand why you are against the idea of someone speaking for others. What I said was that we can still care for an animal without being vegan. I suppose what I meant is that veganism is not a prerequisite for caring for animals, and that humans can still treat animals with care, even if we do kill them in the end.
    Dee said:
    According to you, your assertions do not make this true , what is the reason you exist seeing as you claim to know why animals exist ? You see pain and suffering as irrelevant once your desire is fulfilled.
    This is obvious. Factory-farmed animals exist because we have selectively bred them to exist. And the pain and suffering of the animals doesn't matter once we humans have meat on the plate, but there is an argument to be made for treating farmed animals with care during their lifetimes, and I have covered this too, by pointing out the regulations that are in place to ensure that animals are cared for.
  • No. I really don't think it is immoral until and unless you are a vegan. I  completely love to eat meat and probably would die without having it(maybe not literally). People have got their own choices in this regard.
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473


    My point is that these animals only exist so that we can eat them, so we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 


    I disagree , why would you not treat such with respect ? 



    Besides, your image of factory farming is way off. New regulations have banned these kind of farming conditions, and replace them with 'enriched cages' - in the case of chickens, these are cages that allow birds to perch and express more bird-like behaviour.



    It’s not it’s pretty accurate as some research will show you 


    Because the animal only exists to serve our desire for meat as humans.


    How do you go about proving that assertion ? 



    I do not understand why you are against the idea of someone speaking for others. What I said was that we can still care for an animal without being vegan. I suppose what I meant is that veganism is not a prerequisite for caring for animals, and that humans can still treat animals with care, even if we do kill them in the end.


    How do you actually go about caring for animals you consume ? How is killing an animal actually caring for it , how does that work?


    You contradict yourself  , you admit you don’t respect them but yet care for them ???.... we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 





    This is obvious. Factory-farmed animals exist because we have selectively bred them to exist. And the pain and suffering of the animals doesn't matter once we humans have meat on the plate, but there is an argument to be made for treating farmed animals with care during their lifetimes, and I have covered this too, by pointing out the regulations that are in place to ensure that animals are cared for.


    How does caring for an animal involve killing it ?

  • @Dee
    It is infuriating that you keep using the same arguments, despite the fact that I keep rebutting them. Over and over again. Anyway, here we go...
    Dee said:
    I disagree , why would you not treat such with respect ? 
    Humans factory farm meat. The reason these animals exist is because some humans want to eat meat, and so they should be treated as such - a piece of meat. What exactly is your point?

    It’s not it’s pretty accurate as some research will show you 


    In certain parts of the world, factory farming standards are incredibly poor. For example, a significant proportion of meat coming from Tesco is from Thailand, which has some of the worst factory farming standards in the world. BUT that doesn't mean humans don't care about factory farmed animals. In other countries, such as... literally all the countries in the EU, farmers are legally obliged to meet standards which do show that we care for animals.
    Dee said:
    How do you go about proving that assertion ? 
    This is, as I have earlier said, obvious. Why do you think there are 20 billion chickens in the world? If farming had not been invented, would there be 20 billion chickens in the world? No! What is farming animals for? To serve our desire for meat (or other animal products) as humans! I have made this abundantly clear, repeatedly. What is it that you still fail to understand?
    Dee said:
    How do you actually go about caring for animals you consume ? How is killing an animal actually caring for it , how does that work?
    Killing an animal and caring for it are two unrelated concepts. Okay, so we want to kill an animal. That doesn't mean that we don't ensure that it endures relatively little suffering during its life, and giving it the most painless death possible. Killing something and caring for it are not mutually exclusive.
    Dee said:
    You contradict yourself  , you admit you don’t respect them but yet care for them ???.... we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 
    The reason it is okay to kill them is because they would not exist if it were not for humans' desire for meat. But, we still care for them, so that they do not have to go through so much suffering.
    Dee said:
    How does caring for an animal involve killing it ?
    Killing an animal and caring for it are not mutually exclusive. I have said this many times. Please, if you object to this, just say what problem you have with this, rather than repeatedly asking the same question, despite my constant rebuttals. This is getting really annoying.
  • @Dee
    Wasn't your last question already answered?
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    It is infuriating that you keep using the same arguments, despite the fact that I keep rebutting them. Over and over again. Anyway, here we go...


    You actually don’t keep rebutting them as you haven’t proved them false 


    Humans factory farm meat. The reason these animals exist is because some humans want to eat meat, and so they should be treated as such - a piece of meat. 


    Right so using your “logic” if we breed people to be slaves that’s fine because some humans want cheap labour and so they should be treated as such - a piece of property right?


    What exactly is your point?


    I’ve made it pretty clear 



    In certain parts of the world, factory farming standards are incredibly poor. For example, a significant proportion of meat coming from Tesco is from Thailand, which has some of the worst factory farming standards in the world. BUT that doesn't mean humans don't care about factory farmed animals. In other countries, such as... literally all the countries in the EU, farmers are legally obliged to meet standards which do show that we care for animals.



    Nonsense do a bit of research into the appaling cruelty of factory farming in the US will suffice without the need to mention Thailand , how is caring for an animal killing it ?



    This is, as I have earlier said, obvious. Why do you think there are 20 billion chickens in the world? If farming had not been invented, would there be 20 billion chickens in the world? No! What is farming animals for? To serve our desire for meat (or other animal products) as humans! I have made this abundantly clear, repeatedly. What is it that you still fail to understand?


    Right so again you would have no objections to raising humans as slaves to serve slavers desire for cheap labour ?


    Killing an animal and caring for it are two unrelated concepts


    They’re not , apply that logic to a human 


    Okay, so we want to kill an animal. That doesn't mean that we don't ensure that it endures relatively little suffering during its life, and giving it the most painless death possible. 


    How do you personally go about this ? 


    Killing something and caring for it are not mutually exclusive.


    At least have the balls to admit you could not give a f—k about the animals



    The reason it is okay to kill them is because they would not exist if it were not for humans' desire for meat. But, we still care for them, so that they do not have to go through so much suffering.


    The reason it is okay to have slaves is because they would not exist if it were not for humans' desire for cheap labour But, we still care for them, so that they do not have to go through so much suffering.



    Killing an animal and caring for it are not mutually exclusive. I have said this many times. 


    Enslaving a human  and caring for it are not mutually exclusive. I have said this many times. 



    Please, if you object to this, just say what problem you have with this, rather than repeatedly asking the same question, despite my constant rebuttals. This is getting really annoying.



    If questions about your beliefs upset you maybe that’s something you need to address, you claim to “respect “ and care for animals yet stated ..... so we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 


    Which is a complete contradiction of your position I feel that’s what has you annoyed that you actually defeated your own arguments and you don’t like being called on it 


    You’re guilty of Speciesism which is a form of prejudiced discrimination on non relevant grounds 

  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @ScienceRules

    Wasn't your last question already answered?

    You mean how does caring for an animal involve killing it ? No 
  • @Dee
    Alright, so your position is that I have not answered your questions because I have not proven your arguments false.
    I will now prove your arguments false.
    This may be a long post...
    So firstly, one of your main arguments is that caring for an animal cannot involve killing it.
    First of all, my family has owned pigs for centuries. While the pigs are alive, we care for them, fulfil their daily needs every day and develop something of emotional bond with them. For the time that they are alive, they are more like pets than farm animals.
    That said, the only reason they exist is so that we can eat/sell them. And although we have cared for them during their lifetime, when it all comes down to it, we kill them in the end. 
    So my answer to your question: "How is killing an animal demonstrating care?" My answer is: it isn't. However, we are not killing the animal and caring for it at the same time. We care for the animal during the time where caring for it would increase the outcome, when we decide to kill it, we stop caring for it and... kill it. I never said that I would be caring for an animal and killing it at the same time.

    I will explain a different way using logic.
    c = caring = killing
    -c = not caring -k = not killing

    = -k
    -c

    For Duration of Animal's Life:
    and thus -k
    When About to Kill the Animal =
    -c
    and thus -c

    Moving on to your next argument:
    Dee said:
    Right so using your “logic” if we breed people to be slaves that’s fine because some humans want cheap labour and so they should be treated as such - a piece of property right?
    Theoretically yes. The problem is that we would have to start breeding humans using an existing human, and this is immoral. So the process in theory would work, but it would be immoral to start the process.
    You may ask if the same logic applies to humans. It would but our ancestors have already started the process for us, so we do not have to worry about the immorality.
    Dee said:

    Killing something and caring for it are not mutually exclusive.


    At least have the balls to admit you could not give a f—k about the animals

    Okay, my word choice makes this statement wrong. I suppose what I meant was that you can both kill something and care for it in its lifetime, but well done for pointing out that you can't exactly kill something and care for it at the same time.
    Dee said:
    Which is a complete contradiction of your position I feel that’s what has you annoyed that you actually defeated your own arguments and you don’t like being called on it 
    Well, perhaps. But as I've just proven, my arguments do still stand. I have corrected some of the errors that I earlier made, and now I hope that my new arguments will correct your errors in argumentation.
    Thank you Dee for this excellent debate, I look forward to your next argument!
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 302 Pts
    edited June 29
    @Dee
    As for speciesism, I do believe that humans are superior to other species: after all, we do seem to have developed agency, collective consciousness, the World Wide Web and AI...
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    Alright, so your position is that I have not answered your questions because I have not proven your arguments false.

    I will now prove your arguments false.

    This may be a long post...

    So firstly, one of your main arguments is that caring for an animal cannot involve killing it.

    First of all, my family has owned pigs for centuries. While the pigs are alive, we care for them, fulfil their daily needs every day and develop something of emotional bond with them. For the time that they are alive, they are more like pets than farm animals.

    That said, the only reason they exist is so that we can eat/sell them. 


    Incorrect you claim they exist for that reason , I think if the animals had a say they would disagree 


    And although we have cared for them during their lifetime, when it all comes down to it, we kill them in the end. 


    Yes which is the opposite of caring 


    So my answer to your question: "How is killing an animal demonstrating care?" My answer is: it isn't. 


    I know 


    However, we are not killing the animal and caring for it at the same time


    But you said you don’t respect them remember? ..... we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 



    We care for the animal during the time where caring for it would increase the outcome, when we decide to kill it, we stop caring for it and... kill it. I never said that I would be caring for an animal and killing it at the same time.


    I never said you did , I’m pointing out taking the life of an animal to satisfy a desire is not caring 


    I will explain a different way using logic.

    c = caring k = killing

    -c = not caring -k = not killing


    c = -k

    k = -c


    For Duration of Animal's Life:

    c and thus -k

    When About to Kill the Animal =

    -c

    k and thus -c


    Moving on to your next argument:



    Oh dear......really?


    Theoretically yes. The problem is that we would have to start breeding humans using an existing human, and this is immoral. 


    Because you deem it immoral ? 


    So the process in theory would work, but it would be immoral to start the process.


    What makes it “immoral “ ?


    You may ask if the same logic applies to humans. It would but our ancestors have already started the process for us, so we do not have to worry about the immorality.


    That makes no sense 



    Okay, my word choice makes this statement wrong. I suppose what I meant was that you can both kill something and care for it in its lifetime, but well done for pointing out that you can't exactly kill something and care for it at the same time.


    Why are you getting annoyed at a fault in your position being pointed out 



    Well, perhaps. But as I've just proven, my arguments do still stand. I have corrected some of the errors that I earlier made, and now I hope that my new arguments will correct your errors in argumentation.

    Thank you Dee for this excellent debate, I look forward to your next argument!


    I think you need to address what I keep asking you as in you claimed .... we do not have an obligation to treat them with the respect with which we would treat a wild animal. 


    So you admit you don’t respect them so why you keep saying you care for them is beyond me , why can you just not admit you actually don’t care for them ? you feed your pigs for one reason only you want a well fed and nourished  product to eat,  care or respect doe not come into it 


    Thank you also for the debate 

  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    As for speciesism, I do believe that humans are superior to other species: after all, we do seem to have developed agency, collective consciousness, the World Wide Web and AI...

    Ok so what about mentally deficient people who have little or no mental abilities to speak of? Are you superior to a an uneducated African with a low I Q? If not why not ? 

    How is a Down’s syndrome child superior to a Dolphin which is a very intelligent creature? 

  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Dee ;Ok so what about mentally deficient people who have little or no mental abilities to speak of? Are you superior to a an uneducated African with a low I Q?  Unquestionably Yes .  How is a Down’s syndrome child superior to a Dolphin which is a very intelligent creature? 
     Downs syndrome child yes is superior just on the fact they are human . Human lives in most cases more important then the lives of animals . only animals that I value more then most humans are those in K9 group  
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

     Downs syndrome child yes is superior just on the fact they are human

    Right so because you’re human means you’re superior using your logic that means a Hiller ranks higher in your estimation than a super intelligent and harmless Dolphin right ? 


    . Human lives in most cases more important then the lives of animals . only animals that I value more then most humans are those in K9 group  

    Ahh right so certain animals are superior to a Down’s syndrome child so again you’ve contradicted yourself 



  • Asher34Asher34 99 Pts
    @Dee man you love twisting words to fit the vegan bs mental illness standards . 2 things can be true at the same time . The downs syndrome person ranks higher than the dolphin . No one was talking about Hitler here . He would be closer to your point him being a vegetarian in his day. The types of people that dogs are better than are thugs and general criminals and most far left politicians. The morality of veganism nor being a person who eats meat has nothing 0 to do with Hitler or people with down syndrome   . Meat eating is not a immoral act. 
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Asher34

    When you learn to communicate clearly I may respond , you have not even attempted to defend what I asked,  your “arguments“ have been destroyed I feel any further communications from you will be equally void of implication 
    Asher34
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 302 Pts
    edited June 30
    @Dee
    Hello and welcome to the next argument of my case.
    Dee said:

    Incorrect you claim they exist for that reason , I think if the animals had a say they would disagree 

    It doesn't matter what the animals think, the fact is that their parents were factory-farmed animals, they were raised in a farm (from where we bought them)... the fact is, these pigs would not exist without farming, and more broadly the desire of humans for meat.
    Dee said:

    I never said you did , I’m pointing out taking the life of an animal to satisfy a desire is not caring 

    Caring for and caring about the animal are very different things. The definition of 'to care for' is as follows:
    to care for
    the provision of what is necessary for the health, welfare, maintenance and protection of someone or something.
    This is all that we do for our animals, we take them to a specialist veterinarian if they are ill or need a checkup, feed them, provide for their daily needs. What we do not do is care about them.
    to care about
    to have a strong feeling of love or affection for someone or something; to cherish someone or something.
    This is what we don't do for the animals.
    You may ask, why do we care for the animals if we don't care about them? Simple, as you said earlier: so we have a well fed and nourished product to eat.

    And, no, we do not respect them as I said earlier on, nor do we care about them. But we care for them in the sense that we provide for their basic needs.
    I think this pretty much disproves all of your other arguments.
    Oh, there is one more...
    Dee said:
    Because you deem it immoral ? 
    Because denying a human their basic human rights is immoral.
    Dee said:

    Why are you getting annoyed at a fault in your position being pointed out 

    I did not 'get annoyed', my argument was civil and level. I congratulated you on pointing out something. What about this is 'getting annoyed'?
    I would appreciate it if you carefully consider my point about the difference between caring for and caring about something. Thank you for the debate, it's fun 
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