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Trying to get people to debate obvious statements is annoying
in Politics

By JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 83 Pts edited June 29
My title probably wasn't the clearest so let him go more into detail. When people say incredibly obvious things that no one would disagree with the principal of such as "Men's rights are just as important as women's" or "all lives should matter" is very deceitful, disingenuous, and usually used to gather a negative reaction or "trigger" people who have opinions that contradict the intentions of the using who hides behind that obvious blanket statement. Take for example there is an argument saying that "Men's right are equal to women's" (there actually is a post like this and it annoys the hell out of me). Well duh. What I am supposed to do with that? How is that even a debate? But you know the intentions behind the statement are disingenuous so you can either A try and argue that men's rights aren't equal which makes you look like a jerk and that the OP will use against you or B claim that his intentions behind the statement are impure which then OP can use to say that you are in fact a sexist for assuming that he is suggesting something negative by that obvious statement. If you want to hold an actual debate then you should be willing to be exact with what your view  instead of using a blanket obvious statement because that is a clear sign of intellectual cowardice. Now if you were to say "due to society and media placing more emphasis and attention on feminism, men's rights aren't getting proper justice and are being taken for granted." That is an argument we can actually sink our teeth into. Even though I don't fully agree with that statement at least it is something that is up front, let's me know what your views are, and isn't vague. Despite if you are economically and/or socially liberal or conservative this should be a philosophy that we can all agree on. If you want to debate, actually be up front and specific with your views and don't hide behind blanket statements. If you can not give me the basic respect to not use petty tricks like that in an online open debate forum then do not expect me to intellectually engage with you.
We_are_accountable
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  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 2059 Pts
    Winning Argument ✓
    @JustAnAllMightFan ;
    While people who use this is politics might be dishonorable, I don't think that is of much consequence and at any rate isn't a good argument for them to stop doing so. From a pragmatic perspective, they are just doing what they have to do to get the job done. The genius of democratic government is that it creates the social conditions necessary for the goals of politicians and the general public to be aligned. Politicians just want money and power, and getting into office does this. However in order to get there and stay there, they will need the support of the people, and thus will need to act in a way that is beneficial to them. In this way, it doesn't matter a whole lot if politicians are using the people for some other goal, because presumably everyone will still benefit due to the way that democracies are organized.

    On a slightly off topic note, I would not say that any claims about equal rights of men and women are clear cut morally, especially when there are entire religions who would disagree. Furthermore, there are legitimate arguments that are not really controversial, such as the argument from biology (i.e. women have the ability to give birth, men can't, therefore there is fundamental inequality) and of course a more complex discussion about the factual connection between women's equality and decreasing birth rates, which depending on the circumstances of your society (overpopulated vs. underpopulated) could be used to make a strong argument for or against women's rights.

    Personally, I wouldn't get to worked up about people who post that kind of stuff because there is a clear agenda so there isn't any reason to interact with it. On social and grand strategy scales, it is only reasonable to keep potential alternator motives in mind and never take anything that triggers an emotional response at face value, because it is most likely intended to manipulate.
    JustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.



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  • @JustAnAllMightFan
    While you might agree with a seemingly obvious statement like "Men's rights are equal to woman's rights" that does not exclude the possibility that someone might not think this to be the case. There are plenty of sexists out there- both male and female, who will disagree for whatever reason.

    In the case of making things about something they are not, unfortunately this is just par for the course. The majority of discourse in our modern political and social spheres usually follows this recipe. To some degree, we are hard-wired to not think in direct linear terms and to take everything literally.

    While making an argument about "men's rights" one might smuggle in complaints about the modern feminist movement. However you can expose this hidden agenda and then bring it to the forefront where the person who is debating it might not be able to defend this position. There is a good chance that it is fundamentally indefensible, being based on nothing more than a feeling or some vague idea of what is "best".

    If you are flirting with someone, your real motivations might be a relationship, or a hookup. If you watch politicians closely enough, you will find that often their stated motivations during the campaign is little more than a thinly veiled stunt for power and/or money. If you make a post about how some action by others of little or no consequence is annoying, your real motivations are probably looking for better discussion with people who actually can challenge your beliefs and assumptions. Is it not?
    JustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • edited June 29
    ^ (Sorry I'm still new here and don't know how to quote others yet) I am willing to meet you half way on this. I think we can both agree that using harmless obvious statements and making them something that they are not is distasteful, as you did admit that when that happens it is unfortunate. You have challenged and have gotten me to think more deeply on this issue. To be fair in my defense when I was posting this, it can be justly assumed that I was not only sharing my view but also looking to tackle any counter arguments as this was posted in a debate forum with the option of being persuaded. Now you may argue "Isn't that essentially what OP on Men's rights was doing?". And I will answer that you are correct partially, however while his topic is black and white, meaning there is either a moral standpoint on it (agreeing that Men's Rights are equal to those of Women) or an immoral one (they aren't). While mine, as you exposed has a grey area. The truth is, while there are a group of people who think these rights aren't equal, their opinions are way too taboo for them to openly discuss it on this platform. And OP, knows that. So for you to question the intentions behind the statement, he can then use that to lump you in with that minority of people. I think I can agree with you on the basis that I, as well as everyone does do this, but I think we should all try and avoid it, specifically in the field of politics. Do you agree that using this trick in politics is the dishonorable thing to do?
    Happy_Killbot
  • edited June 29
    @Happy_Killbot
    Alright, you got me. Your way of thinking and explaining things is pretty neat, do you mind if I send you a friend request? While I still stand by my belief that using this tactic is dishonorable (and you did too) will also agree on your stance that in the grand scheme, it isn't really a big deal because by reacting to it, you are doing exactly with the user planned. Ironically by making this post I did somewhat fall into the other op's trap. Personally I wish this tactic wasn't used. I like to think of communities like these as safe place, a place where we can actually explain our ideals without any gimmicks, as even though we don't and won't agree on everything, we still don't use trickery to get our point across. Overall, I concede to your point of view.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @JustAnAllMightFan ;

    Thank you, I was reading some of your other posts and you seem like a reasonable person who is committed to making good arguments rather than simply screaming your point of view without reason or care, so you are more than welcome here.

    P.S. The way you add a quote is by pressing "quote" in the bottom left corner of everyone's post, in which case it will copy the entire argument, or if you wnat just a portion you click on the format button (between emoji and list) and selecting "quote" which opens a box you can copy/paste into.
    ZeusAres42JustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan
    Just quoted someone's post, thanks for the tip.
    Also thank you. I try not to be rude with my post and understand others. I value playing devil's advocate and looking at things from another pov very much so I try to hear everyone out. 
    Happy_Killbot
  • @Happy_Killbot
    Before reading your arguments i felt like i could completely agree with the give given statement. But after going through your pitch i understood the fact that all the statements are not that obvious as they are relative.
    Happy_Killbot
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    Umm I was wondering if I could send you a friend request as I really like your arguments ( those which  I've read). 
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @ScienceRules ;
    @Happy_Killbot
    Umm I was wondering if I could send you a friend request as I really like your arguments ( those which  I've read). 
    You don't have to ask for my permission to do that you know?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    Okay. I did it. Thank you. Also how do I quote only a chunk of someone else's write up and then post what I want to say about it?
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    Okay. I did it. Thank you. Also how do I quote only a chunk of someone else's write up and then post what I want to say about it?
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan

    It truly amazes me at the hypocrisy of those on the Left. You are the perfect example of the very people you are trying to ridicule.

    You just got done ridiculing people making obvious statements such as "ALL LIVES MATTER", while it is people like you on the Left, and in the Democrat Party, who coined the OBVIOUS statement that Black lives matter!

    OF COURSE BLACK LIVES MATTER! We all know this!!!!!

    What we are forced to do is state the more obvious message that "all lives matters" since people on the Left live in a constant state of race bating, identity politics, etc. in an effort to buy votes from those identity groups.

    Were it not for people like you, we would have no need to state the obvious!!!!!!!!!!

    Is any of this getting through to you? Nahhh, go watch some more CNN or MSNBC to get your talking points.
    PlaffelvohfenScienceRulesHappy_KillbotJustAnAllMightFan
  • @We_are_accountable
    Made no sense to me. :p
    PlaffelvohfenJustAnAllMightFan
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @We_are_accountable
    Hello again, it seems that you have missed the point of my arguement. I was not arguing about blm vs alm, in fact I did not even give my opinion on the topic in that statement. I was clearly saying that if you want to debate, state out your whole opinion instead of hiding behind blanket statements. Which ironically, you have done. So bravo. 
    Also by the way, I don't like CNN, I find them quite annoying.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • @ScienceRules
    Thanks lol. I genuinely don't understand what is up the guy.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan
    I can't really find myself agreeing with him or her in any of his arguments that I've come across till now lol. And nvm.
    Lover, hunter, friend and enemy
    You will always be every one of these
    Nothing's fair in love and war.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 2059 Pts
    edited June 30
    @JustAnAllMightFan ;
    We_Are_accountable is a fanatic die-hard Republican Trump supporter. 95% of what he does is show up and inappropriately mark arguments he disagrees with as "fallacy" and spew BS about how the "left is evil and destroying America" while openly supporting theocracy and showing great disdain for actual US institutions. He is openly homophobic. Sometimes his rhetoric is borderline trolling, but the repeated consistency of it makes it seem like it is genuine. He won't listen to reason and almost never makes a genuine effort to actually understand anyone else's point of view before responding. He is as close minded as they come. Anything, and I mean anything, that even slightly disturbs his worldview or challenges his expectations and understandings is automatically wrong and a lie spouted by the Marxist, atheist, anti-god, anti-American, tricked by the media, CNN, MSNBC, left.

    Anyways, most of us ignore or laugh at him. He has more value as entertainment than reasonable discourse. Honestly I just feel bad for his kids.
    PlaffelvohfenScienceRulesJustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @JustAnAllMightFan

    I missed nothing. What I saw was another Leftwing hypocrite spewing ridicule towards the Right for responding to Leftwing Political correct race bating and identity politics. You always forget to mention the political Left for constantly creating these "obvious" statements in order to divide Americans with identity politics.

    You say people must explain the obvious when making statements such as "all lives matter".
    Are you serious? How could that possibly need explanation? What explanation can there be? We make these obvious statements because of your side's constant race bating statements.

    Were it not for Leftwing activism which almost always start from your side of the political spectrum, no one would have the need to state the obvious. Start holding your divisive Party to accountability for dividing America. Racism would be a side note today were it not for your side FANNING THE FLAMES!
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenJustAnAllMightFan
  • @JustAnAllMightFan

    He's obviously emotionally incontinent and his condition is just worsened by his daily intake of high-fiber ignorance from the likes of Breitbart, Limbaugh and such... 
    JustAnAllMightFanScienceRules
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @We_are_accountable ;

    Bro, if you understood the argument being made you would realize that your reaction does more to support it than anything else.

    What is being said here has nothing to do with BLM vs ALM, that was just an example of how some arguments are disingenuous because they fail to understand the context the argument is being made in, as you have demonstrated by being ignorant of the context this argument is made in.

    The argument is then being made that this is a disingenuous way to argue.
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableJustAnAllMightFanScienceRules
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @We_are_accountable
    *Pats Back
    "There there buddy, there there"
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