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The electoral college undermines America's democratic values.
in Politics

By SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
I heard people say that the USA is not a democracy. If that were true, then "We the people" would just be irrelevant. As well as "Government of the people, by the people, for the people." Since all democracy means is "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.".



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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3408 Pts
    "We the people" refers to the alleged "consent of the governed"; it does not refer to the governing. The difference between a republic (which is the US) and a democracy (which is, say, Switzerland) is that in the former the representatives elected by the people govern them by strict and immutable rules determined by the Constitution, while in the latter the representatives elected by the people govern them by flexible rules determined by the people directly.

    Democracy is the rule of the mob; republic is the rule of law. The US does not need the former, and it desperately needs to reestablish the latter.
    markeSaxLindo
  • Phil413Phil413 35 Pts
    @SaxLindo- We are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. To emphasize my point, no where in any of the founding documents is the word democracy even used. Nowhere. The founding fathers took the lessons of past empires and how democracy ruined them. When you say We the people, of and by the people, etc.., that means the country is in the hands of the people but the decisions are carried out by the leaders we elect, from tax collector to President. 
    markeSaxLindo
  • markemarke 334 Pts
    @SaxLindo

    If a true democracy determines what is right by majority mob agreement then are people suggesting it should be up to the majority mob in a democracy to determine whether slavery is right or not?
    SaxLindo
  • SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    "We the people" refers to the alleged "consent of the governed"; it does not refer to the governing.
    Even then, in an electoral college system, it's completely possible that most of the people did not consent to be governed by that person. Regarding the argument that democracy would mean mob rule, I agree, it is called "ochlocracy". However, what is worse than a majority ruling the minority is a minority ruling over the majority. A popular vote election would not turn us into an ochlocracy since we have the senate exactly for the reason of the will of the minorities to be represented. However, when picking a president, a Californian's vote should count the same as a Wyomingite's vote. 
  • SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
    marke said:
    @SaxLindo

    If a true democracy determines what is right by majority mob agreement then are people suggesting it should be up to the majority mob in a democracy to determine whether slavery is right or not?
    The electoral college did not stop slavery. As a matter of fact, the first twelve presidents were slave owners. If the electoral college is designed to give more power to the small states, I argue against it. Eight out of the first nine presidents were from Virginia, the largest state at the time. Even the two presidents following Lincoln owned slaves. Democracy by definition would mean that the slaves would also have the power to vote. 
  • SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
    Phil413 said:
    @SaxLindo- We are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. To emphasize my point, no where in any of the founding documents is the word democracy even used. Nowhere. The founding fathers took the lessons of past empires and how democracy ruined them. When you say We the people, of and by the people, etc.., that means the country is in the hands of the people but the decisions are carried out by the leaders we elect, from tax collector to President. 
    But would the country really be in the hands of the people if most of the people chose his rival? That is the problem I have with the EC.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3408 Pts
    @SaxLindo

    The specific implementation of the voting system is not nearly as important as the underlying principle. Under any political system many people will always be unhappy with some of the representatives governing over them; avoiding this unhappiness is not the goal of the republican system. In principle, the extreme situation is possible in which not a single governed person is happy with their current representatives - but, as long as the representatives' actions are within the strict constitutional constraints, and as long as they were elected as a result of a legitimate election process, everything is working as intended.

    The goal of the republic is not to please the population with the actions of the government. It is to set a strict legal framework which protects individual rights from the tyranny of both other individuals and the collective as a whole. Not everyone will be happy with this arrangement, but everyone's rights will be protected in the end.

    As for picking the president, note that the US is not a monolithic country; it is an alliance of countries. The US is much more similar to EU in this aspect, than, say, to Germany alone. And in the EU even very small nations have a sizable representation, for a very good reason: they are, as a unit, an individual member of the alliance. Whether that individual member harbors 100 thousand people or 100 million people, it is a single political unit within the overall system.
    If, on the other hand, you give each single individual the same amount of voting power, then you are saying that the interests of Germans as a whole are more important than the interests of Monaco residents. Similarly, in the US, giving the single vote of a Californian the same power as the single vote of a Wyomingite as viewed on the federal level, you are dooming people living in Wyoming to be passive followers of the will of the Californians - who do not even live in Wyoming. The votes of Wyomingites become irrelevant.
    Californians have equal voting power within California. Outside California, on the federal level, different rules apply.
    SaxLindo
  • SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
    @MayCaesar
    I think I understand, but could you confirm if this is the justification? The USA is literally a union of different states, it's more like an alliance. Therefore, there is a bit of skewed distribution of votes so to favor the interest of specific groups living in smaller states. It works to give a more equal representation to each state. My mistake was equaling this to the politics of my home country (Brazil). However, analyzing the differences in history of the two countries, I think I have an understanding. Thank you for explaining the EC to me. The good debate is where people try to learn the truth, not try to destroy the other person. Therefore, I thank you all.
    MayCaesarPlaffelvohfenindependently
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3408 Pts
    @SaxLindo

    I would say that this is only a part of the argument, and there are other reasons as well to favor the existence of the electoral college (the Founding Fathers, for example, saw it as a filter against elected representatives seeking to undermine the Constitution, which was, I believe, their central argument) - but yes, this is it in a nutshell.

    I do not think that such an arrangement would not work in Brazil either, which is a large multicultural country. However, my understanding is that Brazil did not originate as a union of independent members, so historically it might make more sense for it to be organised in a more unitary way.
  • SaxLindoSaxLindo 20 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    @SaxLindo

    I would say that this is only a part of the argument, and there are other reasons as well to favor the existence of the electoral college (the Founding Fathers, for example, saw it as a filter against elected representatives seeking to undermine the Constitution, which was, I believe, their central argument) - but yes, this is it in a nutshell.

    I do not think that such an arrangement would not work in Brazil either, which is a large multicultural country. However, my understanding is that Brazil did not originate as a union of independent members, so historically it might make more sense for it to be organised in a more unitary way.
    That is right, Brazil originated as one and then divided itself into independent states. But the federal government here has a lot more power than in the USA.
  • markemarke 334 Pts
    @SaxLindo

    If the freedom and rights in America had depended on a democrat majority then slavery may never have been ended due to the huge majority of democrats in America who supported slavery.  Modern democrats support Marxism.  Large cities have been trandformed by good and bad political action to become democrat by design, and if the US allows these democrat mobs to take over the US by mob majority then America will be lost to the Marxist mob who currently makes it no secret that their goal is to destroy Amereica as it is now and remake it into something they like better.
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