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Was George Floyd's Death murder?

Debate Information

I think all people think the george floyd situation was mishandled, but will they be able to convict the cop for murder?  New evidence has come out that may make things difficult.

 “The autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.” Baker told the attorney his investigation was incomplete pending a toxicology report, however. 

The other memorandum filed June 1 by the Attorney’s Office indicated Baker said Floyd’s level of fentanyl was “pretty high,” and a potentially “fatal level.”

"[Dr. Andrew Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death,” the June 1 memo said.


Please keep things civil.

JustAnAllMightFan
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  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2318 Pts   -  
    Yes, it was murder, 2nd degree... 1st degree would be too difficult to prove without reasonable doubt... I don't actually think Chauvin wanted to kill Floyd,but he clearly wanted to physically hurt him though, torture him a bit, show him who's the boss, you know? As many active and retired officers observed, Chauvin knew what he was doing and knew that it was wrong...

    This is the 3rd autopsy report... Unsurprisingly, this "new" evidence is provided by the defendant's attorney hired medical expert... There is vested interest here... 
    The 2nd autopsy was made by the victim's family, also unsurprisingly it supports prosecution, vested interest here too...
    The first one, performed by the county medical examiner’s office is one without vested interest in the case... And they concluded 3rd degree murder, just sayin...

    Concentration levels of Fentanyl and other opioids fluctuate rapidly and can increase after death so they can't, by themselves, take us very far...  

    The prosecution doesn’t need to prove that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, only that he committed a felony assault and in the process caused the death... And at minimum, the evidence strongly suggests that Chauvin behaved recklessly, dismissing multiple times the request of his partner (Lane) to remove his knee and check on Floyd, knowing (he was trained...) that it was dangerous...  

    Bottom line is, if Chauvin didn’t put his knee on George Floyd’s neck, he would most likely be alive today. 

    I don't think his colleagues (well ex now), will do any time... But he (Chauvin) definitely should... A badge is a responsibility, not a licence to brutalize...
    MichaelElpersJustAnAllMightFanHappy_KillbotSkepticalOneOakTownAZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen. Thanks for the additional info. I dont disagree they behaved recklessly.

    Bottom line is, if Chauvin didn’t put his knee on George Floyd’s neck, he would most likely be alive today.
    This may be hard to prove beyond a doubt.




  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4217 Pts   -  
    Just as a hypothetical, suppose there was some circumstance that would have eventually ended in George Floyd's demise shortly after his arrest. This however would be contingent on Chauvin not kneeling on him.

    Would this mean that this wasn't murder?

    I think the answer is an obvious no, it is still murder. Everyone is going to die eventually, and even if someone is already inches from death does not mean that they can not be killed. Making an argument that he was about to die anyways does not alleviate the fact that the circumstances resulting from Chauvin's actions accelerated Floyd's death.

    The defense is going to have a very hard time getting him off, and frankly I don't think there is any way that is going to happen, and if it did his life is over anyways.

    Honestly, the odds he gets the Epstein treatment are probably higher than those of him getting a fair trial.
    JustAnAllMightFanPlaffelvohfenbasic
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @MichaelElpers
    I'm glad you brought up this discussion. I think debating if it was the cop who murdered Floyd  is acceptable and people shouldn't take offense.
    For me personally I was originally open to the idea that it could've been outside factors that lead to his death but the reports seem to clarify it was mainly the officer.
    On an unrelated note I'm surprised that dude who recently got shot in the back multiple times is still alive, medical innovation is crazy.


  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot. They would have to prove that kneeling on his neck was a main contributer to his death and was not the drugs in system along with his medical condition.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan. What do you think of that case?  Personally id like to see more evidence.  He resisted arrest and then went to his car and reached in to grab something.  I havent heard what that is yet
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @MichaelElpers
    To be honest, I don't know. Some sites claim he was reaching for a weapon in his car, other sites weren't. Since his car is at the scene of the crime, I imagine the evidence hasn't been tampered with so we'll get an official report soon. Just speculating but I have some doubts he was. He seemed very calm to be supposedly attempting to grab a weapon and go toe to toe with 3 armed officers which would have meant instant death for him. I'd doubt he go out of his way to grab a weapon and kill maybe at best one officer, then get murdered by the remaining two right in front of his children. He was definitely resisting and he did deserve punishment for that, but I have doubt that he'd willing go out suicide style in front of his kids and friends just to hurt at best one cop. He didn't seem malicious, but more annoyed/frustrated than anything, which even I'd understand. I don't know though, some people are crazy.
    The only stance I'm concrete on is that shooting him that many times wasn't the right call. Mainly because he was walking incredibly slowly and there were 3 officers right behind him, they could've easily tackled him and held him down in the multiple seconds it took him to get to the driver's side of the car.
    But I do agree we need to see more evidence.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4217 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    @Happy_Killbot. They would have to prove that kneeling on his neck was a main contributer to his death and was not the drugs in system along with his medical condition.
    I highly doubt that this is going to be much of an issue because a defense of: "he was about to die" is a hard sell. This is suggesting that he was just minutes away from death when he was arrested even though we have no reason to think that was about to happen. It is possible, even reasonable to think that if the drugs/health condition were not a factor that he would have been fine, and if there was no neck-kneeling he would likely have been fine.

    I don't think the jury would listen to an argument that kneeling on someone's neck, which just happens to be one of the easiest way to kill someone without a weapon played no factor.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownAJustAnAllMightFan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    Well there are several things there.
     He said he couldnt breathe before the officers even put him on the ground. This suggests either there was something wrong, or the cop had nreason to believe he was lying when claiming it later.  Again im not saying what they did was right, but id need concrete evidence that kneeling on his neck was chocking him.

    Also would the treatment (bad treatment) have killed him if he wasnt on drugs.

    For second degree murder i believe theyd have to prove his death was a direct cause of kneeling on his neck.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4217 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
     He said he couldnt breathe before the officers even put him on the ground. This suggests either there was something wrong, or the cop had nreason to believe he was lying when claiming it later.  Again im not saying what they did was right, but id need concrete evidence that kneeling on his neck was chocking him.
    You can crush someone's windpipe with your hands if you have enough grip strength. Kneeling on someone's neck can easily kill them, especially if they are already in a compromised state due to drugs/medical condition. It only takes a few newtons of force to do this to a healthy person. The human neck is a weak point. Choking doesn't even have to be the issue, you can kill someone without necessarily chocking them.
    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/
    Also would the treatment (bad treatment) have killed him if he wasnt on drugs.
    I think this is irrelevant to the actual case for a similar reason to what I said in my first comment. We could speculate that if the North Koreans never printed that counterfeit bill that he would have survived, but this doesn't bring us any closer to a meaningful verdict.
    For second degree murder i believe theyd have to prove his death was a direct cause of kneeling on his neck.
    What would you accept as as adequate proof?
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot. If he crushed his windpipe or did severe damage to the neck wouldnt that be in the autopsy?

    I would have to analyze all the evidence, and hear results from specialists that say kneeling on the neck was the cause of death.  Im neither confirming or denying.
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -   edited August 2020



    It’s a fact Floyd died by the hands of Officer Chauvin , it matters not if he was high on drugs, drink etc , etc the cops acted like thugs. 

    It was murder plain and simple Institutional racism is embedded in all levels of government it seems

    What is with the police in the US they seem to have this aura of untouchables,

    The  tragic thing about Floyd is how as a child and youth he had big dreams but ended up a low life criminal , truly tragic 

    On a side issue.......

    I’ve asked before after a trip to New York I was stunned at the amount of obese cops males and females stuffing their faces with burgers or donuts  is there no minimun fitness requirements in the US ?







  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 1224 Pts   -  
    No I don't think it was murder. I don't think Derek Chauvin actively desired to kill George Floyd, but I think he may have been disproportionately aggressive to George Floyd, perhaps or perhaps not on account of his skin colour... my point is that Derek Chauvin was more aggressive than was necessary to arrest George Floyd. I don't really want to debate about this, because I won't have much defence against any rebuttals... this is just my opinion based on the relatively little evidence I have to go on.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4217 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    @Happy_Killbot. If he crushed his windpipe or did severe damage to the neck wouldnt that be in the autopsy?

    I would have to analyze all the evidence, and hear results from specialists that say kneeling on the neck was the cause of death.  Im neither confirming or denying.
    It was in one of the autopsies.

    The odd one out does not conclude that the fentanyl and Methamphetamine were the cause of death, simply that the levels would have been considered enough to be diagnosed as an OD should he have been found dead. A subtle but important distinction, he could have survived with those levels and it would have only been rulled an overdose if he were already dead.

    OakTownA
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2318 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    This may be hard to prove beyond a doubt.
    Shouldn't be, but it's the US so you may be right in that context...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @Plaffelvohfen
    @Dee

    George Floyd, doomed himself.
    The man had a history of medical issues going on.
    Thus he put himself in peril.
    If someone has medical issues, then why would anyone who really cared about their own health, complicate their own health with illegal drugs?

    PlaffelvohfenDeeOakTownA
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    But will they be able to convict the cop for murder?

    Do you honestly think anything they would do anything less? It would spark riots worldwide if anything less happened the decision has been cast already I would think from the top down 












  • @TKDB
    The officer was the one who initially approached Floyd with a firearm. Note that this was the first interaction between the cop, meaning the officer pulled and aimed his firearm at someone who was suspected of forging 20 dollars. In simpler terms, he was ready to murder someone who may or may not have stole 20 bucks.
    20 bucks.
    Due to that, Floyd was understandably startled which threw off his reactions. On the tape you can clearly see that Floyd wasn't defiant for the sake of defiance, he was "resisting" arrest rather unintentionally due to the fact that he was so afraid that he wasn't thinking rationally. The officer was the one who was the catalyst for the instigation and then instead of attempting to mitigate the damage he caused, he relied on excessive force.
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotOakTownA
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    George Floyd, doomed himself.
    The man had a history of medical issues going on.
    Thus he put himself in peril.
    If someone has medical issues, then why would anyone who really cared about their own health, complicate their own health
    with illegal drugs?


    He didn’t actually if there was no police intervention was he doomed? 

    Doesn’t matter what his History was a cop killed him 
    OakTownA
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan @Plaffelvohfen @Happy_Killbot

    Thought these details were important, coming from the same doctor that said his drug levels were high enough for an overdose. And with these in mind i agree, it was homicide.:

    The documents say Baker performed the autopsy before watching the videos of police restraining Floyd, with Officer Derek Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck, because Baker wanted to avoid bias in his autopsy.

    In Baker's final report after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

    The FBI asked the Armed Forces Medical Examiner to review Baker's autopsy and they agreed with his findings, writing "his death was caused by the police subdual and restraint" with cardiovascular disease and drug intoxication contributing."

    Happy_KillbotJustAnAllMightFanPlaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @Dee

    George Floyd abused his own health with street drugs Dee.

    I've seen plenty of Black Americans in Emergency Rooms, with out of control high blood pressure, heart ailments, kidney problems, and so on.

    If anyone treats their own health like garbage, then your body is going to respond, in kind, with a drug overdose, heart attack or maybe even a stroke.

    Those are the facts, which no one can deny!

    Because I don't know of any Doctor, who is going to welcome any patient, abusing their own health, because someone might be a drug addict?

    Do you Dee?

    If you were to hypothetically take street drugs, how do you think your blood pressure, or heart or kidneys, might react to any street drug's?

    Ask you Doctor, if they would approve of George Floyd's lifestyle, as being one to emulate?

    George Floyd doomed himself, because getting high, was apparently more important, than his own health was, and those are the facts, Dee.

    Blacks kill Blacks everyday.

    But no one wants to protest, when a Black offender, kills an innocent Black citizen, do they Dee?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    George Floyd abused his own health with street drugs Dee.


    Yeah and a cop killed him , your point is?
    PlaffelvohfenJustAnAllMightFanOakTownA




  • @TKDB
    We protest Black on Black crime all the time in the form of demanding the ending of the drug war so we can get rid of the black market gangs fight over.
    It seems as if you're ignoring the issue at hand and using deflections (George didn't take care of himself, black on black crime etc) to change the topic at hand.
    The cop was entirely in the wrong and it's something that's not hard at all to come to terms with. Even if someone doesn't take care of their health, it still doesn't give others an excuse to murder and it doesn't take away from the severity of the murder.
    On an unrelated note I often notice that when people introduce "black on black crime" into conversations surrounding police brutality,it's almost never used in a manner that suggest the person at hand is actually concerned with gang violence and the wellbeing of people who live in these areas, but rather they're just using it as a whataboutism to avoid the original topic.
    If you're going to introduce black on black crime into the debate, then offer solutions, don't just use it as a deflection.
    DeePlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    Are you a George Floyd supporter?

    Show me, your autopsy report, in regards to George Floyd's death?

    If you're going to blame a Cop, then BACK YOUR OPINION UP WITH the facts?


    DeePlaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    The drug war isn't going anywhere because many American citizens are drug addicts.

    So if some Americans want to put their drug addiction ahead of their own families, than they are waging a second war against their own families, right?

    "The cop was entirely in the wrong and it's something that's not hard at all to come to terms with. Even if someone doesn't take care of their health, it still doesn't give others an excuse to murder and it doesn't take away from the severity of the murder."

    "On an unrelated note I often notice that when people introduce "black on black crime" into conversations surrounding police brutality,it's almost never used in a manner that suggest the person at hand is actually concerned with gang violence and the wellbeing of people who live in these areas, but rather they're just using it as a whataboutism to avoid the original topic.
    If you're going to introduce black on black crime into the debate, then offer solutions, don't just use it as a deflection."
    (This opinion from your own mind, is deflection.)

    The below is a cold blooded reality.

    Black on Black crime, is an example of Black on Black brutality, and oppression.

    And the Black criminals killing Black kid's, is entirely wrong as well, right?

    Because apparently to some Black criminals, crime is more important than the lives of those innocent Black kid's?

    Who's fault is it that those 12 Black kids, were killed by those Black criminals?

    The Police, those Black kids families, or the Black criminals?

    DeePlaffelvohfen
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    The drug war is entirely counterproductive to actually solving drug addiction because it only gives heavy punishment to offenders, along with a criminal record which prevents any chance of getting a career leading to people relying on crime for economic security. Logically, if we want to solve the addiction you speak of, legalization and rehabilitation is far superior than criminalization that only exist to strengthen the profits of an already robust prison system. Not to mention that heavily criminalizing drugs only creates a profitable underground market in which gangs compete to take over. What we're seeing now with minority gangs it's really no different than what we saw during the times of mass white on white homicide during the era of prohibition. When you have a high concentration of poverty, a broken education system, poor means of economic mobility and a profitable black market, you're going to have high amounts of gang-related homicide. Don't like it? Let's aim to solve the causes of it instead of using it as a whataboutism. Your second point is at best a blatant misrepresentation of my argument, and at worst makes no actual sense. When did I say that black on black crime was acceptable? When did I even suggest that? I'm only pointing out the fact that you're using the topic as a whataboutism to deflect from the original topic. By the way you've structured you're arguments it's clear you aren't concerned with gang violence, you're only using as a method to escape the debate. Black on black violence and police brutality aren't mutually exclusive, we can have both at the same time and we do. I am purposing solutions to solve both, while you seem to be pitting one as a means to destroy the validity of the other.
    Don't test me on this. I've had to educate myself on this at a young age so I can debunk when people such as yourself spew flawed rhetoric. 
    It's clear that you aren't concerned with black on black violence nor police brutality, but rather just protecting a narrative.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    Are you a George Floyd supporter?

    I’m a supporter of justice the man was murdered by a cop , do you deny this 

    Show me, your autopsy report, in regards to George Floyd's death?

    I didn’t do an autopsy , but  others did the results are there for all to see 

    If you're going to blame a Cop, then BACK YOUR OPINION UP WITH the facts?

    I watched on news from your country as an employee of the state slowly strangled a fellow human to death as he pleaded for his life , are you brain dead or on drugs? Maybe both ?
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @Dee

    http://thejacksonpress.org/?p=111210&fbclid=IwAR2NG13FaEdfAAq6EAb89yOUPrqNrx5E9qp8a98JIhg3pC6s8_-402RCNdU

    Some excerpts from the article:

    "Derek Chauvin, the former Minneapolis police officer accused of killing George Floyd, has requested a judge dismiss the murder charges as prosecutors push for longer prison sentences."

    "On Friday, an attorney for Chauvin filed a motion in court that argued there was no probable cause to support the second-degree murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges pinned to his client."

    "The motion claimed that Floyd’s death was caused drugs in his system, not Chauvin pressing his knee into Floyd’s neck for an extended period."

    ‘Put simply, Mr. Floyd could not breathe because he had ingested a lethal dose of fentanyl,’ the filing said, according to the Wall Street Journal."

    "The filing also argued that pre-existing conditions like sickle cell trait, heart disease and COVID-19 could have exacerbated the the drugs."

    Dee
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    You're not debating Dee. 

    Incorrect you’re running as usual because you deny facts 


    You're preaching more opinion.

    I’m not , I gave you facts and you wail as usual 

    You said ..... If you're going to blame a Cop, then BACK YOUR OPINION UP WITH the facts

    You think a cop who strangled a fellow human to death is innocent wow! Do you hate blacks that much ?

    Do you deny the news footage? The autopsy ? And the fact he’s facing life in prison?
    PlaffelvohfenJustAnAllMightFanOakTownA
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @Dee

    The below are the facts.

    http://thejacksonpress.org/?p=111210&fbclid=IwAR2NG13FaEdfAAq6EAb89yOUPrqNrx5E9qp8a98JIhg3pC6s8_-402RCNdU

    Some excerpts from the article:

    "Derek Chauvin, the former Minneapolis police officer accused of killing George Floyd, has requested a judge dismiss the murder charges as prosecutors push for longer prison sentences."

    "On Friday, an attorney for Chauvin filed a motion in court that argued there was no probable cause to support the second-degree murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges pinned to his client."

    "The motion claimed that Floyd’s death was caused drugs in his system, not Chauvin pressing his knee into Floyd’s neck for an extended period."

    ‘Put simply, Mr. Floyd could not breathe because he had ingested a lethal dose of fentanyl,’ the filing said, according to the Wall Street Journal."

    "The filing also argued that pre-existing conditions like sickle cell trait, heart disease and COVID-19 could have exacerbated the the drugs."

    @Dee

    There are Black drug addicts,

    White drug addicts,

    Hispanic drug addicts,

    Asian drug addicts.


    So what is this irrelevant argument from you being based on?

    "You think a cop who strangled a fellow human to death is innocent wow! Do you hate blacks that much?"

    "Do you deny the news footage? The autopsy ? And the fact he’s facing life in prison?"


    @Dee

    Was George Floyd strangled?

    Do you think Black on Black gun violence, is a form of innocence?

    Do you hate the TRUTH, that much?

    Are you OK with offenders hurting innocent people?



    Plaffelvohfen
  • @TKDB ;
    No one here has justified black on black violence, you're attacking a position in this debate that does not exist. Don't use black on black crime as a deflection.
    DeePlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    BLM are the ones DEFLECTING.

    They created the position.

    And their preachings are being used by their supporters to harass and bully communities across the United States as well.

    And using George Floyd's death as a scapegoat for their nationwide harassment practices?
    DeePlaffelvohfen




  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    A vast majority of people aren't "bullying" other communities but only just trying to get a fair shake of the American Dream that died years ago. Basically this whole debate isn't centered on your stance on the George Floyd murder but just your personal vendetta against the organization.
    We virtually brought this upon ourselves. Our police force is severely undertrained (the average police training last 6 months compared to 2-3 years for other developed countries) while being over funded in terms of deadly weapons. We have an army of untrained workers with an abundance of deadly weapons and then we get surprised with police murders happen? The rioting and looting angers me, but what angers me more is that we refuse to end it all by establishing proper police and community reform.
    OakTownA
  • DeeDee 3442 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    ‘Put simply, Mr. Floyd could not breathe because he had ingested a lethal dose of fentanyl,’ the filing said, according to the Wall Street Journal."


    Right so Chauvin had nothing to do with his death ......what part of “I cannot breathe “ is difficult for you to understand?


    There are Black drug addicts,

    White drug addicts,

    Hispanic drug addicts,

    Asian drug addicts.


    Thanks for that captain obvious 


    So what is this irrelevant argument from you being based on?

    Irrelevant? Meaning your denial of news footage of a man pleading for his life?


    Was George Floyd strangled?

    What do you call it when a fellow human denies you air by kneeling on your throat ? What do people like you who detest blacks call that 

    Do you think Black on Black gun violence, is a form of innocence?

    No I don’t ,what are you on about?

    Do you hate the TRUTH, that much?


    What truth am I denying you ?

    Are you OK with offenders hurting innocent people?

    No I’m not where did I state this ?
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    Are you a BLM supporter?

    I support kid's, family, community, law enforcement, and the Bill of Rights, which BLM, and their supporters are illegally infringing on.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    If you support law enforcement, children, family and community then you should be supporting the law enforcement proposals BLM is suggesting because these actions (more cameras, longer training, more in-community officers) have been proven to be more beneficial in reducing crime and police fatalities than the system we have now. Yet both political parties aren't interested in any sort of reform, making the problem worse.
    The police and judicial system we have now has been mainly counterproductive in decreasing crime. Don't rely on emotions for debates.
    OakTownA
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2318 Pts   -  
    From the archives, for the newcomers...

    DeeHappy_KillbotJustAnAllMightFanOakTownA
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    No, the BLM movement, is an organization of hypocrisy.

    If they won't protest Black on Black criminal brutality and oppression, then their mission statement is self serving, and hypocritical.
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    First off the same people who support BLM are the same people who are going to support prison and drug reform which would solve the black on black crime problem. Secondly, black on black crime isn't a problem that can be fully solved by protesting. Poverty and a healthy black market are the primary catalyst for the minority crime epidemic so protesting gang violence isn't by itself going to make those two factors go away. Telling gangs to stop being gangs, won't do anything, it's a waste of energy. What will work however, it's campaigning to kill the root causes of what turns people to gangs in the first place. People along with BLM however, have been protesting treatment of ex cons, unfair drug legislation, poverty and inadequate prison conditions for decades now. Those 4 factors are all largely behind black on black crime so protesting those things can all be seen has campaigning to end gang violence. Police brutality on the other hand, is something can be solved through protest because it's made directly out to the government.
    Even putting that aside, none of what you said debunks the fact that the law enforcement reform BLM is purposing would go a long way in reducing crime police murders and fatalities,it's especially superior compared to the system currently in place.
    OakTownA
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    If any individual wants to complain about life in prison, then don't commit a crime.

    Show me where doing any illegal drug, is allowed by the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

    Show me where Marijuana legalization, allows for any drug user, to legally around their own kid's?

    Show me where Marijuana legalization, allows for any Black, White, Hispanic, or Asian drug user, to smoke weed while, on their way to, or from work?


  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan. Im confused?  I thought BLM was supporting defunding the police.  How do you get more cameras, longer training, ect by defunding the police.?
  • @MichaelElpers
    Defunding the police was a poorly worded slogan. If you look into their actual proposals, they are for the reform I spoke of earlier. In addition, there's the argument to be made that our police system is already one of the largest funded per capita, yet it's done little in reducing crime. So perhaps, it isn't about how much we fund, but rather how we choose to use those funds.
    In other words, when they say defund, they mean reform.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA




  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan Regardless defund the police was there slogan and many of their leaders have expressed that defund means completely defund not reform and move the money around.  AOC herself affirmed this.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @TKDB
    The "if you don't like it, then don't do crime argument" is an oversimplified argument that fails to actually look into the actual factors. Most don't want to do crime, the emotional and legal consequences that come with doing crime are consequences that people would avoid if they could. But many can't. There's a great deal of people who are in a position where their choices are crime or starvation, so they choose the former because the risk associated with it, are lower than the consequences of not meeting human needs for survival.
    I'm really struggling to put together what you're arguing here but the basic cause and effect here is that poverty is the main cause for crime, rather it be in the form of the drug trade or gangs. 
    Actively telling people to just not do crime, isn't a practical solution to actual fixing crime. You have to get rid of the factors behind it.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @MichaelElpers
    Technically speaking we can defund the police and still have more than enough money to afford more advanced training programs for the police. As previously stated we are already overfunding the police, yet are seeing no positive return on investment.
    We can also defund the police and use those funds to invest in crime ridden areas, mitigating the need for law enforcement in the first place, which is what AOC and BLM are trying to get at.
    No matter which way you choose to look at it, the fact remains that our police force is some of the world's most funded per officer yet has done little to actual decrease crime, prison population nor repeat offender rates. I believe you are taking the term, defund, too literally or you're confusing the term with "abolish"  and not actually examining that by defund they mean rearranging those funds to build communities instead of wasting tax-player dollars on an over-funded yet ineffective police system.

    In reality, AOC doesn't want to abolish the police, but to take away funds from sections of the budget that are already over-funded.
    Below is BLM actually explaining what they mean.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/defund-police-black-lives-matter-7007efac-0b24-44e2-a45c-c7f180c17b2e.html
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • TKDBTKDB 691 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @JustAnAllMightFan

    So you're saying that poverty and hunger, are creating criminals?

    If a female, has 6, 7, it 8 kids, but can't feed some of them, then maybe that lady, is creating a situation of struggle for those kid's to have to live with?

    Then, she has created a triple burden?
    For herself, her kids, and any community, that might basically act as a co parent, towards those kid's, via those liberal handouts, to help any community, to deal with that burdening situation?

    Liberal handouts, that the rest of the law abiding taxpayer's will be paying for?

    Some of the criminals and offenders in the US are being babied by their defense attorneys, and by those choice organizations that want the law abiding citizen's to feel sorry for them?

    And then these same offender advocates, want the LAW ABIDING citizens to baby their criminal and offender selves as well?

    Sorry, the rest of the country deserves better, than to have to baby, cater, or pander, to any criminal, or offender in the United States, because any offender, regardless of their skin tone, could show enough respect for themselves, or towards others, before illegally victimizing their innocent victims?
    OakTownA
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    Minorities and poor people in the justice system are notorious for being provided overloaded and untrained defense attorneys which convince them to take plea bargains instead of actually fighting their case, hence your claim that criminals are being "babied" by our criminal justice system is fallacy. If anything time and time has shown that the criminals who have the edge in our judiciary process are those who commit white collar crimes, who are on average wealthy and not black.
    What are you arguing for here?
    You seem to be for law and order. That is admirable so am I. However you fail to fully address or even consider the factors that lead to crime. Until these causes get addressed crime will continue.
    OakTownA
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 727 Pts   -  
    @JustAnAllMightFan. They have specifically stated this means defund and not rearranging.  I dont know how you think the police can afford the programs you mentioned if the plan is to defund.
    Yes Aoc said she wanted to take nearly all police funding and give it to different areas.  This is not rearranging police funding.

    It is not the polices job to lower repeat offender rates.  They just arrest criminals.  That is more a department of justice issue.

    Based on recent violence and riots i have a hard time agreeing that the police is overfunded.

    Going back to funding communities, you stated you were for school choice.  The RNC repeatedly fights for this while the DNC continues to support solely public schooling and the teachers union.


    Plaffelvohfen
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @MichaelElpers
    Actually, it's quite possible to defund the police and still have better programs. Other nations have longer and better training programs while still having a lower police spending per capita than the US.  There's multiple sectors of the police force that have separate budgets. It's entirely possible to cut the budget from weapons and increase the budget for training. Most BLM supporters aren't in favor of defunding the training programs, in fact poor training is one the main talking points of police reform activists what they have a problem with is the endless resources officers have to commit excessive force and even death, while not being held accountable in a timely manner, if at all. The plan is to defund the militarization of the police and use those funds that would have gone to heavily arming law enforcement to better train the police, which is easily doable and something AOC herself has campaigned for. These are the reforms (cameras, more in community policing, longer academies) BLM and politicians have requested under their demands. Even then a plethora of police training reform, such as banning certain holds and police accountability (holding officers responsible when they inappropriately use force) would cost little, be affordable after removal of funds yet would go a longer way than over-militarization.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/aoc-defund-the-police-means-redistribute-funds-to-social-programs-that-prevent-crime-and-social-discord-in-the-first-place?_amp=true
    You can ignore the site above, it's the previous one I used.
    The phrase, "Defund the police" doesn't mean abolish the police, it means to stop wasting funds on heavily arming officers.
    The riots are a direct result of inadequate police funding or in other words,the result of the police being severely overfunded in terms of militarization.To balance this out, all that needs to be done is cut the funds for militarization and use those funds for training, which is what virtually every "Defund the police" advocate is actually advocating for. We have a plethora of untrained officers with deadly weaponry patrolling crime ridden areas, resulting in a mass array of police killings. People eventually grow tired of it and will resort to violence to get their point across. Even in the most militant of nations, if conditions get bad enough, social unrest is bound to happen. Continuing to over-fund the police in terms of weapons will only result in more avoidable deaths and consequently more riots. Objectively, we spend too much on law enforcement, we have one of the highest budgets per capita globally.
    Also, I'm not in favor of private charter schools as a means to fix education systems because children in poverty still wouldn't be able to afford them. School choice can still easily be achieved through government programs, which is what I'm leaning to. My home town for example constructed a college and career academy via government funding that prioritized STEM programs, we also have duel enrollment programs which give high school children the option to go to a nearby public university while the government pays the fees. However my state governor, republican Brian Kemp, severely cut the duel enrollment program to the point that it's basically meaningless. By school choice I prefer the governor funding to build college preparatory academies and stronger duel enrollment programs.
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • JustAnAllMightFanJustAnAllMightFan 497 Pts   -   edited August 2020
    @TKDB
    Since you edited your comment, I couldn't respond to your new arguments in time. But if you want to hold a proper formal debate (where we each take turns setting our arguments and people vote) I can set up one. Let me know.
    But to respond to your claim surrounding the lady having children she wasn't prepared for, most of that is a result of poor sexual education and contraceptives, that can solved by investing in communities so children learn not to make these mistakes at an early age. Typically, government welfare actually does a better job of eventually producing self reliance and better economic mobility because of people have assistance to help mitigate the negative factors holding them back, Which results in them being more able and likely to invest in themselves to the point that eventually they won't have to rely on government assistance anymore and becoming contributors to the economy. Really the issue you speak of could be solved by government funded childcare and better access to contraceptives and abortions.
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