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The abortion debate... Women's convenience Vs the Baby's life.

Debate Information

We are not talking about extreme case abortions, so keep your responses to the vast vast majority of abortions that are performed out of convenience.

A fetus is the medical name for an unborn Baby! It's a human life no matter how much you try to claim otherwise. During all Pregnancies, there are two lives involved, not just the mother's.

The abortion debate can only come down to one point of argument... is an unborn baby an innocent living human life, or not. That's the question at hand. It matters not all your ludicrous excuses of possible hard lives, poverty, choice, etc. etc.

It can only come down to that one simple question. Is it a human life or not? Science has weighed in on the issue and states it is a human life at conception! PERIOD!

Remember Science? That institution you so fervently applaud when they agree with you on other issues of contention, but when it comes to abortion? You deny Science!
You call that baby a clump of tissue, a Fetus that has no right to life.

All innocent life deserves protection! That is what makes us a part of humanity. We as a civilized community can not carve out exceptions for particular groups of people that may be considered inconveniences.

We don't round up all the Special need's people in the world and kill them out of convenience. NO! We protect all innocent life no matter their differences, their age, young or old.
We don't round up all the Foster children and execute them for cost to society. NO! They are living growing human beings deserving of protection!

So the next time you create yet one more Pro abortion debate, please remember the only important facts of the issue. Is it a living human life or not?

You don't want a Baby? Use birth control, say no to sex, get a tubal, a vasectomy. This is not rocket science. It's your choice if you do not want to get pregnant.
After you do get pregnant, it should be a matter of law and order protecting all innocent life. There are two lives involved in a pregnancy. REMEMBER THAT!

If it's the life of mother at stake, then it will be her choice. It's better to save one life then lose two.
PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotAaronAlofRIScienceRulesDonsonRonaldTheIII
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Arguments

    Arguments


  • @We_are_accountable ;
    We are not talking about extreme case abortions, so keep your responses to the vast vast majority of abortions that are performed out of convenience.
    Why not talk about extreme cases? What is the difference between abortion for rape and abortion for "convenience"?
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableAlofRIScienceRules
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @We_are_accountable
    Hey this is actually the most civil I've seen this guy be, and he didn't even mention Democrats.
    Good job, Accountable, I'm happy.
    We_are_accountableAaronAlofRIScienceRules
  • @We_are_accountable

    The decision whether to terminate a pregnancy is essentially a moral decision, a matter of conscience. I do not think there is or can be any dispute about that.

    The question is: Whose conscience? Is the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State? Be careful what you wish for here...
    I believe that in a free and democratic society it must be the conscience of the individual.
    We_are_accountableHappy_KillbotDeeScienceRulesthepettypeasant
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    As always, you ignore the other innocent life, what a shock!

    I could not care less the moral conscience of some killer for his reasoning of taking an innocent life. ALL INNOCENT LIFE SHOULD BE PROTECTED!

    The State makes laws protecting your life! Why are you not fighting the State on your right to life?

    Pro abortion arguments truly are an insult to our intelligence.
    Happy_KillbotAlofRIDeeScienceRules
  • @JustAnAllMightFan

    The Democrat Party is the enemy of every unborn baby in America. There is not one unborn baby that they are willing to protect! The GOP tried to pass a simple Bill protecting babies after 20 week, unless extreme cases, and Democrats could not even support this. They are as extreme as I have said, and deseeve to be thrown out of office.

    If you vote for them, you are supporting all abortions for any reason and at any stage. LIVE WITH WHAT YOU SUPPORT!
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenAlofRIScienceRules
  • @We_are_accountable

    That is only your personal belief that all innocent life (whatever that means) deserves to be saved, which is fine in and of itself, it's just an opinion...

    I on the other hand, sincerely believe that not every ejaculation deserves a name and that fetuses are not persons...
    We_are_accountableAlofRIScienceRules
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    Read what Science says about a human life at conception. They have the common scientific knowledge to know that sperm is not human life. But you know this, you simply do not care. Your selfush convenience outweighs a baby's life.
  • @Plaffelvohfen. Its not completely about your individual conscience. People dont just get to decide on an individual level who is human and who is not.
    If we followed that rule slavery/white supremacy may still play a major role in the U.S.
    We_are_accountable
  • @MichaelElpers

    In the Left's world of self love, the ends always justify the means. If a woman chooses to have sex without birth control, and gets pregnant, it's not her fault! It's the baby's fault and worthy of the death penalty.
  • @We_are_accountable

    Science says that life began millions of years ago and that it's a continuous process... My position is that a human fetus only becomes a person when expelled completely from the uterus. Prior to that moment, it's just another part of the woman's body and has no legal recognition whatsoever... 

    This is my sincerely held belief, as yours is that somehow the fetus is a person from conception... You would probably agree that the government has no right to infringe on your sincerely held beliefs, correct? Then all things being equal, the government has no more right to infringe on mine or others as well...

    Which brings us to the actual core of the matter, something you avoid addressing... 
    The decision whether to terminate a pregnancy is essentially a moral decision, a matter of conscience. I do not think there is or can be any dispute about that.

    The question is: Whose conscience? Is the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State? Be careful what you wish for here...
    I believe that in a free and democratic society it must be the conscience of the individual.
    So, can you answer or will you run away like a coward?? Is the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State?
    We_are_accountableDeeScienceRules
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    Your position goes against Science. I thought you Leftwingers were not Science deniers?

    My position goes along with Science.

    Murder is not a matter of Conscience. It is against the law.
  • @MichaelElpers
    @Plaffelvohfen. Its not completely about your individual conscience. People dont just get to decide on an individual level who is human and who is not.
    If we followed that rule slavery/white supremacy may still play a major role in the U.S.
    LOL  Where have you been since last May?? It absolutely still does play a major role in the US... It's systemic, you just blind yourself to it... Your politics have revolved around it since your founding, it permeates your society to a point you can't even recognize it, it's just part of your reality and you don't question it...

    And yes, it absolutely is a question of individual conscience, it cannot be anything else as it's fundamentally a moral question...

    I'll ask you the same question then with the same warning to be careful what you wish for:  Is the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State? 
    We_are_accountable
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen. You think slavery and white supremacy plays a major role in the U.S?  Ill give that an lol.

    Its not just a moral issue.  How are you justifying murder is illegal if certain individuals think otherwise.
    We_are_accountable
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1841 Pts
    edited October 13
    @MichaelElpers
    How are you justifying murder is illegal if certain individuals think otherwise.
    Societal integrity, the most basic duty of a government is to insure it... Nothing to do with the morality of murder, it's a practical consideration...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @We_are_accountable

    lol chickened out? Can't answer... You are hollow and empty of substance...
    We_are_accountableDeeScienceRules
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen. What makes not killing a new born baby a societal integrity item and not in the womb?
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1841 Pts
    edited October 13
    @MichaelElpers
    @Plaffelvohfen. What makes not killing a new born baby a societal integrity item and not in the womb?
    Seriously?? Ok, I have an answer and I'll gladly give it to you, and you definitely need to read it... But please answer my previous question, which you seem reluctant to answer:  

    I
    s the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State? 
    DeeScienceRules
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen.  In general i think the freedom of the individual is most important.
    But yes, the government in general should not be the arbiter of what is right and wrong.
  • @MichaelElpers

    lol, Couldn't resist including the "in general" part eh? A little preemptive caveat, just in case? lol     
    No, there are no exceptions... States don't have a conscience, full stop... 

    Now, to answer your question, why is it ok in the womb and not outside...

    Do miscarriages threatens societal integrity? I sincerely hope you're intellectually honest enough (as opposed to some others on here) to recognize that no, miscarriages do not threaten society's integrity... It impacts a very limited number of individuals, a single mother, a couple or a larger family but that's it, and it's not permanent... In absolutely no way can a miscarriage be said to be disruptive to a society at large and threaten its integrity... Abortions are just induced miscarriages... 

    Also, in a place with no restrictions on abortion, there are no unwanted born babies to kill... Remember that I consider birth, to be the determining factor in personhood, once a fetus is completely expelled from the uterus, it becomes a human person and gains individual rights. So of course, next you'll ask why birth and not 10 minutes earlier or later or some other nonsense to try to argue from the absurd so I'll preemptively answer...

    It's because, as a State has no conscience and cannot decide what is right or wrong, it must be practical like with murder and have practical considerations to maintain integrity... The moral decision is always up to the individual (like with murder), the practical one is up to the state and the practical way to determine personhood is birth, that physical separation is not an arbitrary human decision, it's the way our biology works, right or wrong do not even enter the equation...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 531 Pts
    edited October 14
    @Plaffelvohfen I said in general because i had to think sbout it further before giving a straight yes.

    However your miscattiage argument was unconvincing.  If a mother killed her baby it would impact practically the same people as an abortion.  So i see no difference why one would impact societal integrity and the other wouldnt.

    I dont want have the personhood argument with you because weve been there done that.
  • @MichaelElpers

    If your giving a straight yes, then it's settled... great!! :) 
     If a mother killed her baby it would impact practically the same people as an abortion.  So i see no difference why one would impact societal integrity and the other wouldnt.
    You're absolutely right, the death of any newborn really does not impact society any more than miscarriages do, there is no difference when we try to measure the impact on society, glad we agree on that!

    In fact, you'll probably agree that the older you get, the wider of an impact your possible death will have on society, it's the societal consequence of aging as a member of a gregarious species... The death of an adult (murdered or not) who has a family, friends, a job and coworkers or a business with employees that in multiple ways depend on him, someone who has been actively participating and interacting regularly with other members of society for a number of years, such a death would, in itself, impact society a lot more than the death of a newly born baby ever could right? So if it's not the actual death that matters to societal integrity, what makes rampant murder a threat? Let's face it, it's not the age that matters in murder, right?? A newborn or an old guy doesn't matter, right? It's not the death itself that moves the State into legitimate defense mode against a possible threat, so what is? 

    It's the realization that society is made of persons (age or sex is irrelevant), and protecting the life of persons is therefore fundamental to societal integrity, without persons there is no society therefore the State must commit, coherence oblige... Birth being the practical and neutral event that creates persons, for the State the rest just follows... Murdering any person must be declared illegal, it's quite simple and it's rhetorical really as laws are no guaranties... There have been laws against murder since laws exist and murder still occurs, if you get caught there are consequences of course but many murders go unsolved and people can get away with it, that's just reality... Mothers killing their own newborn, is not actually a problem in the US, right? 

    You're desperately trying to infuse a need for morality in the legal process when there is none, the State does not have a conscience and cannot make moral judgment without flirting with theocracy and other fascistic systems... As a guy who claims to have libertarian sympathies, you should understand this even if you are not actually committed to those principles... 
    AlofRIScienceRulesWe_are_accountable
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Abortion is murder of a child i.e. infanticide. Democrats are the party of abortion, lgbtq immorality, communism.


    AlofRIScienceRulesWe_are_accountable
  • @Plaffelvohfen "It's the realization that society is made of persons (age or sex is irrelevant), and protecting the life of persons is therefore fundamental to societal integrity, without persons there is no society therefore the State must commit, coherence oblige... Birth being the practical and neutral event that creates persons, for the State the rest just follows..."

    Here enlies my argument.  I disagree that birth is the neutral event that creates a person.

    You say that the state cant make a moral judgement, they/you are making the judgement that birth creates and person and i believe that should be set to conception.
    We_are_accountable
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1841 Pts
    edited October 14
    @MichaelElpers

    Please read carefully...

    The practical way to determine personhood is birth, that physical separation is not an arbitrary human decision, it's a biological fact, there are no ideology or moral involved, no human decision required in any way shape or form, right or wrong do not enter the equation...   There is absolutely no moral judgment involved as there is no need for one... 
    We_are_accountable
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1037 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen. Its not completely about your individual conscience. People dont just get to decide on an individual level who is human and who is not.
    If we followed that rule slavery/white supremacy may still play a major role in the U.S.
    We, (at least many of us, apparently), "followed that rule" because white supremacy still plays a major role in this country, and it has increased exponentially in the last 3 years! Slavery, also, has not left U.S.! Women are still treated as 4/5ths human, you might say, and many are still slaves to an ancient belief. Still not allowed to think for themselves or live their lives without an "overseer". Those people aren't allowed to have an "individual conscience", they have to follow the one laid out for them. So sad.

    For some reason, you seem to be missing much of what's happening around you. We should all look at the whole picture.
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • @MichaelElpers

    I will add that the only one making a moral judgment call is you... Which is perfectly fine as only individuals can make moral judgment calls, you have the right to find it immoral but you don't have the right to impose your morals on others...

    Which brings us back to my original point,  Is the conscience of the individual to be paramount or the conscience of the State?

    You agreed that it was up to the individual, each woman has to decide for herself if they want an abortion or not, the State has no right to interfere either way...

    It cannot stop abortion and it cannot stop birth...

    DeeAlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen. You are still drawing personhood at physical separation.

    It is a physical biological fact that when sperm meets the egg separste distinct DNA is formed naturally developing as a human.  That is pure biological as well.
    We_are_accountable
  •  The practical way to determine personhood is birth, there is absolutely no moral judgment involved as there is no need for one... 
    The fundamental truth, practical is a moral choice, of both ideology and interpretation as we agreeing it is only easiest to perform then reverting the question back to a fundamental truth. Why address the privacy of a pre-person who is not a legal citizen of Canada about the idea of privacy. 

    In a basic way because to post an image of a dead corpse mutilated invades the privacy of that departed. The only thing certain is a fetus will only kill its mother, brother, or sister before birth. It is after birth the child can then go on to kill everyone else in the world. Is that not the basic just of lethal force?

    What makes Constitution great, not free speech, as the basic truth to state issue without cost, it is the constitutional right to look for the perfect union in legal vocabulary sense, fundamental even if it is not in English alone.

    I do not compete with a woman and a woman does not compete with a man, we compete against complexity when preserving constitution and it is our choice to do so equally.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1841 Pts
    edited October 14
    @MichaelElpers

    And back to your usual disingenuousness...

    Show to anyone, a photo of a couple where the woman is in her early pregnancy, how many person do they see on the image? They will tell always you 2, not 3, not 4 or 5 (could be triplets...). 2, there are 2 people on an image showing a man and a pregnant woman...

    Birth is the only point where individual ideology and bias cannot enter into consideration, it's the point of undeniability, no one can deny that a fetus completely expelled from an uterus is an independent individual, every other point involves human bias..... That is what it means to be practical, that practicality is what is required from a democratic representative State... 

    To argue personhood start anywhere else than birth disregards practicality and is purely ideologically motivated... 
    We_are_accountable
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @AlofRI. Women are treated as slaves and are 4/5 of a person.  Id like to see yoir evidence of that.
    To be honest i think its kind of an injustice that youd compare women's lives today to the horrors of slavery.

    And no white supremacy is not a major problem in the amount of relevance it has today, its idealogy is most definitely an issue.
    We_are_accountable
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 531 Pts
    edited October 14
    @Plaffelvohfen. So because they cannot see the person means they are not a person and geared more to tradition.  Its not always known whether a woman is pregnant or whether she has twins ect. Thats a weak argument for why they arent a person.

    I could also show you a 40 week old inside the womb and newrly everyone would say thats a baby.

    Also it seems as though youve now your main contention is that we should use birth because it is a practical method not because it is scientific.

    We can be practical and wait till the child is born to give it and name, birth certificate ect while also acknowledging scientifically that the fetus is a person that at least has a right to life.
    We_are_accountable
  • I don't get why so many people want to act like the guardian of a foetus. What happens after the birth? All the affection vanishes. 
    Please let the mother decide. And if possible help those millions who are alive and are suffering.
    We_are_accountablelatexfeverAlofRIPlaffelvohfenthepettypeasant
    Your love became a chorus played only by my memory.
  • @ScienceRules. No it doesnt.  I dont want the mother to kill babies either.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 1841 Pts
    edited October 14
    @MichaelElpers

    Science has absolutely nothing to say about personhood as it's not a scientific issue, it's a legal issue... Science will tell us if it's human, it's rate of growth, it's health status but Science cannot say anything about personhood... 

    What we're trying to do is get rid of any human ideological bias, let nature take it's course, birth is the only incontrovertible point where no one, regardless of personal beliefs, can deny that a fetus is an independent individual... 

    If there is another such incontrovertible point as birth? A point no one can argue cogently against, please let me know... I won't hold my breath though, because there are none with that level of incontrovertibility...

    You know and understand that, you're not an id!ot (at least I do not assume so), you just don't like abortion which is fine, no one should force you to have one.. It's just that your feelings are hurt,  you cannot get your way and impose your personal views on other to make you feel self-righteous and you dislike that, I understand but, it is what it is, right?
    latexfeverAlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @MichaelElpers

    We can be practical and wait till the child is born to give it and name, birth certificate ect while also acknowledging scientifically that the fetus is a person that at least has a right to life.
    Again, two people, from two nations, one argument made by a court's ruling set around life. When does America get a say? When do we look at why neither of these two sides addresses the basic question does the fetus have a right to privacy? The fetus is being openly implicated in a murder as a minor.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • I don't get why so many people want to act like the guardian of a foetus. What happens after the birth?

    Well due to the 13th Amendment it gives states the right to use a congressional slavory to earn income by selling children either as adoption or as medical treatment in the fertility industry.
  • @Plaffelvohfen. Legal issues are often based around science.  Look at limitations based on climate change.
    Also science has to tell you what makes you a human and person to begin with.

    A fetus is not independent...independent how?  They are independent in the fact that they are a completely separate organism with different DNA. Or independent as in they arent arent separated from the mother. What about conjoined twins they arent separated from one another. Babies are dependent on someone else to live. Others are not independent of machines to live.

    I think its pretty hard to argue against conception. Of course you will get more people to agree as the fetus progresses in developement. As i would still have to agree with you that at birth they are still a person.  You start with a group that agrees its a person at conception, more at a heartbeat, more at consciousness, more at birth, and id imagine even a few more until you can think rationally or support yourself. 
    And yes i believe people could argue a newborn is not a person.

    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableAlofRIThor
  • ThorThor 26 Pts
    Abortion could never be justified morally 

    Peace
    Har Har Mahadev
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • @MichaelElpers

    Wow, you really like to contort yourself into a pretzel, clearly being disingenuous... So glad I'm not an american and don't have to put up with such bad faith and theocratic tendencies...
    AlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @ScienceRules

    WE ARE!

    That unborn child is alive and suffering when they dismember his body!

    You can waste everyone's time denying Science which says a human life begins at conception, but it will never change the obvious. You have the same selfish mindset as those who supported slavery. You support something that is barbaric and make ludicrous excuses to justify that barbarity.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenScienceRuleslatexfeverAlofRI
  • @MichaelElpers ;

    I think its pretty hard to argue against conception. Of course you will get more people to agree as the fetus progresses in developement. As i would still have to agree with you that at birth they are still a person.  You start with a group that agrees its a person at conception, more at a heartbeat, more at consciousness, more at birth, and id imagine even a few more until you can think rationally or support yourself.  And yes i believe people could argue a newborn is not a person.

    Okay! so fundamental truth, you are giving evidence on when a medical doctor can pronounce death by terms of a medical license, there is potential for a heartbeat. Life has already medically been pronounced started at egg by medical fertility treatments, men kill more pre-fetuses babies than women, and the cost of doctor's pay to refer or treat infertility was the official recognition of when life started. Again no mention of the American courts ruling of loss of privacy, mother, fetus, nothing?
  • @We_are_accountable ;
    That unborn child is alive and suffering when they dismember his body!
    Proof of GTFO
    We_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • You have the same selfish mindset as those who supported slavery. 
    Yet here you are supporting slavery.
  • @Plaffelvohfen. Where was theocracy used in my argument.

    Pointing out that of course more people think birth is a baby than conception is obvious.  Because birth includes all the people who view it as a person earlier in development.
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • @We_are_accountable
    How the hell is the foetus suffering?
    We_are_accountableAlofRI
    Your love became a chorus played only by my memory.
  • @MichaelElpers

    I wrote theocratic tendencies, the american right definitely has theocratic aspirations with debunked claims that the US is a Christian nation... The view that personhood, not life, begins at conception is entirely faith based... 
    AlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @ScienceRules

    Science says the Baby feels pain after 20 weeks! The Democrat Party supports abortions up to birth! They dismember late term babies. THE BABY FEELS PAIN!

    There are approximately 1% late term abortions which is roughly 1000 per year. Do you care? Nah, this is why I ignore you most times.
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    Yet the American Right has been placed in a united state by a court ruling that it is privacy loss so why would a start of life matter, when legally responsible for the care of someone alive or dead in most nations when privacy is violated legal action can be taken. Abortion unites all women in a state of admission to a described murder then provides a week alibi by coaching. Churches are international and you make it seem like they are not the legal precedent in America is the loss of privacy be it fetus or mother.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @We_are_accountable

    Have you never tried freshly aborted baby soup? The chunks are especially tasty if you don't salt too much...
    Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Oops...Do over!

    Yet the American Right has been placed in a united state by a court ruling that it is privacy loss so why would a start of life matter, the legal care of someone alive or dead in most nations when connected to privacy is violated legal action can be taken, the mother when in danger does not always turn up dead. Abortion unites all women in a state of admission to a described murder then provides a week alibi by coaching. Churches are international, legal precedent is not international, precedent depends on both the civil and criminal court to bring them into the nation, is the loss of privacy being lost by fetus and mother?


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