illegal immigration debate

Oakchairbc

ArtisticBear said:

@Fascism ;  @CYDdharta
http://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/what-the-media-wont-tell-you-about-illegal-immigration-and-criminal-activity

Fascism said:

@ArtisticBear
You can't give exceptions to certain people. This threatens national security. The borders are for keeping us safe. If we keep making exceptions then our security will eventually crumble. Look at Germany. 

People walking over a line to pick cabbage and work in America isn't a security threat in fact it makes America richer. Stop being hysterical. 

Fascism

@ArtisticBear ; @Oakchairbc There is reason to be hysterical. In countries where these types of immigration is legal, it isn't turning out to be so well. Disease has increased in Europe, and problems with refugees committing crimes are also a problem, especially in Germany. 

CYDdharta

Oakchairbc said:

People walking over a line to pick cabbage and work in America isn't a security threat in fact it makes America richer. Stop being hysterical. 

While I can't find the words to tell you how much it means to me to have your assurance that people who ignore our laws to come into this country illegally are not a security threat, you'll have to forgive me for wanting something more substantial.  Particularly considering;

According to the FBI, 67,642 murders were committed in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. The General Accounting Office documents that criminal immigrants committed 25,064 of these murders.

To extrapolate out these statistics, this means that a population of just over 3.5 percent residing in the U.S. unlawfully committed 22 percent to 37 percent of all murders in the nation. This is astounding.

Illegal immigrants clearly commit a level of violent and drug related crimes disproportionate to their population.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities

ArtisticBear

@Fascism ;
I do not mean to say that immigrants should be let into the country whenever they want. I'm saying that America is being  hypocritical and is refusing to accept that most immigrants don't want to get into the crime. Why would they come into this country just to get kicked out again? If they committed some sort of crime they most likely had their reasons. In fact most undocumented people are in jail just because for being here, without having done anything wrong. While, most legal citizens are in jail because of a crime they actually did.

Vaulk

Oakchairbc said:

Immigrants have lower crime rates around 33% lower compared to natives[2].

[1]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/immigrants-do-not-increase-crime-research-shows/

[2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/

This is setting aside the fact that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminals.  You have to break the law to Illegally immigrate and you continue to break the law so long as you're here in the U.S. illegally.  Unless committing a crime on a daily basis is somehow NOT the definition of a Criminal then I'm not sure how you'd see this any other way.  And the argument that it Shouldn't be a crime to do something if you have good intentions is absolutely absurd.  

CYDdharta

ArtisticBear said:

@Fascism ;
I do not mean to say that immigrants should be let into the country whenever they want. I'm saying that America is being  hypocritical and is refusing to accept that most immigrants don't want to get into the crime. Why would they come into this country just to get kicked out again? If they committed some sort of crime they most likely had their reasons. In fact most undocumented people are in jail just because for being here, without having done anything wrong. While, most legal citizens are in jail because of a crime they actually did.

There is a very good reason so many illegals are in jail;

just over 3.5 percent residing in the U.S. unlawfully committed 22 percent to 37 percent of all murders in the nation.

Fascism

@ArtisticBear ;
So do you agree that illegal immigrants should be kept illegal? I agree with what you say about crime statistics and tax paying, but I just don't want what is happening to Europe now. 

ArtisticBear

@CYDdharta
notice I said most, not all

ArtisticBear

@Fascism
I understand your worry, but I still believe that those illegals that really did nothing wrong to hurt others should be legalized.

CYDdharta

ArtisticBear said:

@CYDdharta
notice I said most, not all

Most foreigners who support terrorism against the US don't get caught committing major crimes either, I suppose you think we should let them in as well. 

ArtisticBear

@CYDdharta
No, but there isn't a way to stop that without creating even bigger problems with foreign nations and even our own citizens. 

CYDdharta

ArtisticBear said:

@CYDdharta
No, but there isn't a way to stop that without creating even bigger problems with foreign nations and even our own citizens. 

We may not be able to stop it completely, but we reduce it to an absolute minimum level by taking control of our borders.

ArtisticBear

@CYDdharta
As i said, other countries may take it as an insult and result in a sort of war or something like that. We can't expect to be understood by everyone.

CYDdharta

ArtisticBear said:

@CYDdharta
As i said, other countries may take it as an insult and result in a sort of war or something like that. We can't expect to be understood by everyone.

Not likely, as pretty much every other country on the planet takes more control of their borders than we do.  The US already has, by far, the largest immigrant population in the world.  Not many countries want to be so obviously hypocritical.

Fascism

@ArtisticBear My general attitude towards illegals is "we should make a profit off of them. deporting them costs too much." The problem is that we aren't making a profit off of them now. We need to change the policies. 

ArtisticBear

@CYDdharta
I'll agree with you on that

ArtisticBear

@Fascism
How are we not making a profit off of them? Just asking

Fascism

@ArtisticBear The cost of border patrol and health care for them is cutting down on our budget. By profit I don't mean economic profit. I mean profit to the national treasury. 

MissDMeanor

Here's my position on illegal immigration:
1. Secure the border. The wall may not be the best, but the border must be secure so no new immigrants can arrive, as they are doing so unlawfully. 
2. Make the path to citizenship easier. Make requirements lower, but background checks stronger.
3. Analyze illegal immigrants, if they are hard working people with a job who are not criminals, and are productive members of society let them stay. They don't need to be deported, they hold American values. If the person is a criminals, who live off welfare - those people should be deported. Those illegals are not productive and are not real Americans because they don't embrace our values.

It is not a realistic, or good, goal to deport every illegal immigrant in this country. 

Vaulk

The Problem @MissDMeanor is somewhat similar with the beginning of the movie Scarface, where the police attempt to track Al Pacino's character's background but it runs cold.  There isn't really an effective way to background check immigrants coming from Mexico as their criminal justice system is...well it's just isn't.  

To the point of analyzing illegal immigrants that are already here...how would you do that?  I mean we could ask them all nicely to come turn themselves in to be analyzed for which ones can stay and which have to go...lol.  You don't seriously think that even 10% of them would come forward do you?

MissDMeanor

@Vaulk
Regarding analysis, if we find an illegal immigrant, instead of immediately deporting them just analyze them first. I'm not proposing that the immigrants will step up.We will find them, and my argument is that when we do we should not deport them.

Regarding background checks, It's not like it's our job to find an immigrant's criminal record. They have to submit one to be considered. The current requirements are incredibly unrealistic.

Vaulk

@MissDMeanor

I like where you're going with this.  Of course the obvious question that rears it's head from this idea is "If you're catching people who criminally entered our country and giving them amnesty based on a standardized test, what message does that send to the literal millions of people who are in the line to gain legal citizenship"?

passedbill

Illegal immigrants should not be allowed to enter the US and should be deported. They are taking US tax payer’s money and getting some benefits possibly. They pay no taxes on the money they earn possibly. 

Trump should build a wall to decrease or stop the amount of illegal immigrants coming into the country. The cost is large, but it may be not be high compared to the amount of money illegal immigrants are taking. Sanctuary cities should also be stopped. They are taking in illegal immigrants while possibly going against the US government. 

ViceRegent

@Coveny

I wonder if the Pols immediately before Sept, 1939 would agree with you.

And explain “income inequality” is a problem?

Oakchairbc

Vaulk said:

Oakchairbc said:

Immigrants have lower crime rates around 33% lower compared to natives[2].

[1]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/immigrants-do-not-increase-crime-research-shows/

[2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/

This is setting aside the fact that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminals.  You have to break the law to Illegally immigrate and you continue to break the law so long as you're here in the U.S. illegally.  Unless committing a crime on a daily basis is somehow NOT the definition of a Criminal then I'm not sure how you'd see this any other way.  And the argument that it Shouldn't be a crime to do something if you have good intentions is absolutely absurd.  

When your argument requires you defining existence as  a crime you've got nothing. 

CYDdharta

@MissDMeanor

Oakchairbc said:

When your argument requires you defining existence as  a crime you've got nothing. 

Their existence in their native country isn't a crime, their illegal entry into this country is a crime.  Do you finally understand?

Vaulk

Oakchairbc said:

When your argument requires you defining existence as  a crime you've got nothing. 

No one has defined existence as a crime.  You've specifically excluded the context of my statement and without it...it sounds horrible.  This is called misrepresentation and it's underhanded and defeats the entire debate process...let's not resort to it.  Existing is not a crime, your actions however, can be criminal.

Schnuupi

Obviously yes illegal immigrants should be deported as they are getting things for free and not paying into the system which screws over everyone else and causes issues in the economy. The wall is too far, no do not build a wall that is just putting a stigma on the whole situation. But if you have not immigrated legally you should have no right to live in the country.

BaconToes

Building a wall would not be an effective way of stopping illegal immigrants.

1.  The U.S. is in debt and the wall would cause $70 billion and $150 million to maintain it each year.                             https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/us/politics/senate-democrats-border-wall-cost-trump.html
2. The wall wouldn't stop planes or boats.
3. Along the wall's planned area, it would destroy many residential homes and mountains.
4. And guess who pays for the wall? Yeah, the taxpayers... Us
5. Most illegal immigrants that come to the U.S. will leave. Building the wall will not stop more from getting in [See 2]. It will only stop them from getting out. That will cause more illegal immigrants to be in the U.S.                                                                                                                                                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_P9PR5ckFk (Source are sited on the top right of the screen so you could research more)