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Respond to my contradictions, will you?

Debate Information

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5


“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18


“… Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God…” — Leviticus 18:21

[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] “… If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering” — Judges 11:30-31

[The terms were acceptable to god — remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future — so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] — Judges 11:29-34


“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26

“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19


“…thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ” — Exodus 21:23-25

“…ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” — Matthew 5:39


“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” — Genesis 17:10

“…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” — Galatians 5:2


“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22

“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister — his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16


“A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD…” — Proverbs 12:2

Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: “Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” — Job

“Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart…” — Ecclesiastes 9:7

“…they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not…” — 1 Corinthians 7:30The Sabbath Day

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  • maxxmaxx 707 Pts   -  
    respond to my contridictions will you? wow.  i had had no idea the genre you were talking aboiut was religion. pure clickbait. @JGXdebatePRO
  • DeeDee 4169 Pts   -  
    I thought this was one of Maxxs usual clickbait ……ahem cough , cough , “debates” ……..you got me 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 115 Pts   -   edited July 23
    @JGXdebatePRO

    >>>Respond to my contradictions

    Your post does contradict the assumption that you might be intelligent, of this I am fully persuaded in my own mind. To verify, we need only examine one of your supposed contractions and need not go further as the rest follows the same blundering.

    >>> “… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

    What does it mean to see God face to face? Scripture answers itself.

    "if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    Face in Scripture used here and many other places is symbolic in nature and represents the presence of God. 

    Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always. (Psalm 105:4) NIV

    Seek the LORD and his strength; seek his presence continually! (Psalm 105:4) ESV

    >>> “No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

    This verse when not taken out of context is in reference to God the Father ("No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known."). Jesus as we read is also in the Godhead, the Trinity, and does have a face. If you see the face of Jesus you have indeed seen the face of God. God the father however, "... dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see...(1 Tim. 6:16)

    It is also not a stretch to reason that if Genesis 32:30 was literal and that Jocob did indeed see the face of God, what he experienced what is referred to as a Christophany, a preincarnate manifestation of Jesus.


                                                                            

    Plaffelvohfen
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @Neopesdom

    Of course, if you read a statement and then interpret it in a way opposite to what the language suggests, then you may reconcile any apparent contradictions. If I read two statements - "2+2=3" and "2+2=4" - then I can say, "Oh, these statements do not contradict each other. You see, 2+2=3 is really a metaphor for the fact that all things in the Universe are fundamentally unknowable with 100% certainty. 2+2=3 is an allegory to the fact that 3 and 4 are both integer numbers, and we all must be very thoughtful when working with them, so as to not confuse them with irrational numbers".

    If I am honest, however, then I will read "2+2=3" as "2+2=3" and say, "This is wrong and incompatible with the idea that 2+2=4". It all depends on what your goal is: to classify the statement, or to defend the indefensible.
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 120 Pts   -  
    I have lost count of the number of times that Christians when defending a passage in the bible say. " Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."
    For example, when Jesus said that if anyone comes to him but did not hate their family then they could not be his disciple.

  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 115 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    >>Of course, if you read a statement and then interpret it in a way opposite to what the language suggests, then you may reconcile any apparent contradictions.

        Apparent contradictions can be made with any text, just take some isolated statement out of a paragraph and then put that together with another isolated statement from somewhere else. ignore all context and voilà, contradictions galore! What has one accomplished, some great intellectual endeavor?  It only demonstrates a vacuous mind and the dishonest intentions of the writer. Further more, this fraud only indicates the absence of any actual facts against the Bible, the writer apparently has nothing real that can be used against it, so they have to resort to lies and propaganda. This post is a hallmark of bigotry and reveals a deep seeded insecurity in the poster, so sad, if not pathetic. 


                                                                                                   

    Soviet propaganda: The "Arithmetic of an Alternative Plan: 2 + 2 plus the Enthusiasm of the Workers = 5" exhorts the workers of the Soviet Union to realise five years of production in four years' time. (Iakov Guminer, 1931)
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @Neopesdom

    Yes, and as such, every text contains errors that are to be called out. It is not an excuse to make up interpretations of text that run against its actual statements. Context or not, when a statement says "X", and you interpret it as "not X", you are wrong. Context helps clarify a statement; it cannot turn it upside down.

    Virtually every fiction book contains plot holes. Good authors respond to people pointing them out with, "Sorry, guys, I am a human and make mistakes. Your criticism is absolutely warranted". Bad authors respond with trying to patch those holes up by retconning their work or hastily making new stuff up. Same goes for good and bad readers respectively.

    You know what is great about having no idols, holy books and so on? You do not have to defend the indefensible. When everything is a subject to criticism and nothing is holy, then you can be fully intellectually honest. You do not have to conjure up excuses all the time, and that is great!
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 115 Pts   -   edited July 24
    @MayCaesar

    >>Context or not, when a statement says "X", and you interpret it as "not X", you are wrong. Context helps clarify a statement; it cannot turn it upside down.

    Context - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed. 
                 - the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

    Without context a statement is not contradictory, it is not fully understood. With context a word or passage can be fully turned upside down as it's intended meaning can be comprehended. 

    >>>You do not have to defend the indefensible

    It's completely defensible, if you haven't noticed I've been doing it since day one without legitimate challenge. All I've seen so far is complete balony and that hasn't changed with your post either. 2+2=3 really? Even 2+2=4 is meaningless without context. What paradigm are you living in?

    Is this really the best anyone has, very telling...... Is there anyone out there that doesn't have to lie, deceive, misrepresent, twist, or conflate, etc, in order to present a challenge??  I'm still waiting.....  

                                                                                  


      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @Neopesdom

    Well, with a very elaborate context, I suppose, you can turn "2+2=3" into "2+2=4". But having to do so is a sign of terrible writing. Good writing should be concise and to the point. To reconcile "I have seen the face of god" and "Nobody has ever seen god", you have to search through entire book for some side passage, then force a certain interpretation of that passage, in turn, for some reason not trying to interpret it in a way contradicting its actual words... That is an awful book if the author(s) intended it to be this way, and no one can prove that certain sentences are supposed to mean what they claim they mean. And if not, then you are reading from the book what is not there.

    In writing, one of the core concepts coming all the way from the ancient times is "showing versus telling". The author of the book you are defending, it would appear, does the opposite: "obscuring versus telling". In the first case, you let the events described in the book speak for themselves. In the second case, you build a maze of contraptions and make it so anyone can read anything they want from it, because the maze is not navigable through reason.

    What prevents me from reading the sentences from the Bible in question and then saying, "The author clearly says that atheism is the only logical outlook", by pulling out multiple other sentences and interpreting them however I want? The exact entity which I mentioned before: intellectual honesty. I do not have to do what many Christians, Muslims, Communists, etc. do when referring to the Bible, Quran, Das Kapital, etc: find infinite wisdom in every sentence, and reading many sentences backwards by finding some deeper "context" to them. I have read enough books and written enough hundreds of pages to know that all books have issues and errors, and ideologically charged books - hundredfold so.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    JoeKerr said:
    I have lost count of the number of times that Christians when defending a passage in the bible say. " Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."
    For example, when Jesus said that if anyone comes to him but did not hate their family then they could not be his disciple.


    Jesus is saying you can't choose your parents or anyone over him.

    Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.

    John 12:25 Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


    You have to want Jesus more than you want anyone or anything, even more than your own life.

    After you do what Jesus says and hate life the way it is, he will show you how to have true love.

     

    Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -   edited July 24

    “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8

    “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5


    The old testament is about Jesus who was still to come.

    The Sabbath day was about Jesus.

    After Jesus came, we worship him and not special days.


    “… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

    “No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18


    God the Father is invisible and Jesus is God the Father made visible.



    “… Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God…” — Leviticus 18:21

    [In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] “… If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering” — Judges 11:30-31

    [The terms were acceptable to god — remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future — so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] — Judges 11:29-34


    Jesus is a burnt offering too, but he wasn't literally burned.
    Jephthah's daughter served her whole life as a servant in the temple and did not get married and have children.  She was not literally burned as an animal sacrifice.



    “… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26

    “…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19


    God allowed some people to live among the Israelites.



    “…thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ” — Exodus 21:23-25

    “…ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” — Matthew 5:39



    Jesus came and gave a New Covenant, which entailed mercy and taught constraint.  



    “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” — Genesis 17:10

    “…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” — Galatians 5:2


    The old law had circumcision and was a teaching tool to hold people until the coming of Christ who circumcises us in the heart.


    “Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22

    “And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17

    [But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister — his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

    “And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16



    Abraham married his half sister and that was before the law about do not marry a sister.


    “A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD…” — Proverbs 12:2

    Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: “Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” — Job


    Job is a lesson in how bad things can happen to good people.


    “Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart…” — Ecclesiastes 9:7

    “…they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not…” — 1 Corinthians 7:30The Sabbath Day


    Paul is making the point how our lives will pass away one day and to not be consumed by the things of this world, since there is eternal life with Christ.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 115 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    >>>Well, with a very elaborate context, I suppose, you can turn "2+2=3" into "2+2=4". But having to do so is a sign of terrible writing. Good writing should be concise and to the point.

    That really depends on writing style, sometimes active is better than passive voice. A technical manual for instance written in passive voice would be terrible writing. When is comes to the Bible we have a collection of over 40 different writers over a 1600 year period, all brought together in perfect continuity and cohesiveness, under the guidance of God. You cannot treat these books like any other because there are no others like it.

    >>no one can prove that certain sentences are supposed to mean what they claim they mean.

    That’s simply illogical if not amazing. Imagine a book in which everything you read could mean whatever you wanted it to mean. A book where sentences and words have no relation to another, on that basis alone would make it stand out from all the books in the world. Are remarkable achievement, yet not....  “A text without a context is a pretext.”

    >> To reconcile "I have seen the face of god" and "Nobody has ever seen god", you have to search through entire book for some side passage, then force..

    This interesting narrative your generating here, however disingenuous, exposes the philistine in you. Your preconceived notions of reality are clouding your judgement. Your narrative isn’t going to work on someone who knows the Bible, your only dragging simpletons down to hell with you. 

    You cannot just jump in the deep end and expect to be an expert swimmer without certain preparations. Your attempts at reconciliation of certain passages will get you drowned. Scripture also speaks of itself as milk and sold food. The beginner first starts out like a child, with milk, then as their understanding grows they move on to more solid food. If you cannot stomach such apparent contradictions in the solid food, start with the milk, build your discernment skills or you will certainly choke. As a non-believer there are going to be some things you come across that no matter how hard you try you will never comprehend without being born again of the Spirit of God, a believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit, because there are things which are written that are only spiritually discerned.

    We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
        what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”
        the things God has prepared for those who love him

     these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.  What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.  This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,

    “Who has known the mind of the Lord
        so as to instruct him?”

    But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:1-16)

      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @Neopesdom

    A book is a book. It does not matter how many writers wrote it and over which period of time; it should be judged for its merit, which is what I am doing with the Bible. "There are no other books like it" can be said about any book, obviously. There are no other books like the Lord of the Rings. There are no other books like Twilight. There are no other books like Meditations. Every book is unique; it may have copies, but you cannot have two books that are exactly the same, yet different.

    It is, indeed, hard to imagine such a book... Until you come across one of the "holy books", like the Bible or the Quran. ;)

    I am sorry, but I probably have read over a 100 educational books in STEM fields over my career. Many of them did not assume any prior knowledge from the reader, were self-contained and were meant to be worked through, slowly and gradually, coming back to older chapters every now and then.
    Never have I come across any concept that needed to be presented as an apparent contradiction, which later would be resolved with proper context. I have come across many concepts which seem bizarre and even, perhaps, nonsensical initially - but that is different. There is a difference between lack of understanding and apparent contradiction.
    If I do not fully understand what a "differentiable function" is, then the claim that not every function is differentiable may be confusing to me, but I can see a clear pathway towards resolving this confusion. On the other hand, the claim that every function is differentiable, but some functions are not differentiable, is apparently wrong, and I do not need to know what "differentiable" means to understand that. There is no context in which this claim makes any sense, unless that context changes the definition of basic words such as "some" - and if that is the case, then this claim is just ill-stated.
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