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Rabbinical Jewish Error: are we saved by grace through faith or obedience to the Law of Moses?

Debate Information

Concerning Jewish works salvation deception: “So what's the point of keeping any of God's commandments?” Question asked in response to the Scriptural truth that obedience to the Law does not manifest in righteousness (a right standing), justification, atonement, before God the Father (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16).

Christian response,

It is our obedience SUBSEQUENT to our confession of Jesus as Lord and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit as the Seal and Guarantor of relationship (Ephesians 1:13-14) that affirms, authenticates, validates, our faith. If one "claims" Christ as Lord yet their actions, words, deeds, are compromise with this sinful and dying World, they are not truly redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ as the one who loves God and is led by the Holy Spirit in sanctification will demonstrate a "rebirth" (John 3) and live as a "new creation" -- the old things have passed away and all things have become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Obedience signifies a changed heart and life that is dedicated to God and His will through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; Luke 6:46-49). It is this obedience SUBSEQUENT to our salvation that reflects the presence of the Spirit within us and that obedience is viewed by the Father as pleasing and as works of righteousness that will be evaluated for authenticity at the Bema Judgment. Before our confession of Messiah as God and Mediator for sin, our works of obedience to a Law are as a filthy, bloody, menstrual rag in the nostrils of the Father (Isaiah 64:6). The ONLY way mankind can escape God's wrath for sin and simultaneously be pleasing to the Father is to enter into a personal relationship with Him by grace through faith in the Son, Jesus Christ - Yeshua, as our God and Mediator for sin (John 3:16; John 14:6).






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    Arguments


  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    It is easy to object to an argument no one actually ever made. Rabbinic Judaism explicitly teaches that one follows the laws because they are the laws. Therefore there would have been no attention made to any claim that "obedience to the Law does not manifest in righteousness (a right standing)". No rabbinic Jew would ever ask "What's the point of keeping the commandments?"
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; You don't know the comments and arguments that preceded the question. Have a good day.
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    Feel free to provide any context which would make the claim of "Rabbinical Jewish Error" any more reasonable. Thanks in advance.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; Rabbinical Jewish Error needs no context...it's a works doctrine of obedience to the Law of Moses in pursuit of righteousness which is error as no one can find righteousness, atonement, salvation, through attempting to keep a Law that only defines sin void atonement (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16). This is one reason why only a remnant of Israel will be saved from death in Hell (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27) as they pursued righteousness by works as opposed to faith in Messiah.


    AlofRI
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    so your argument is that the doctrine you ascribe to rabbinical Judaism is false and the limitations thereon are valid because of quotes in a book which has no relevance to rabbinical Judaism? OK.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; Rabbinical Judaism is a works doctrine, do you deny this?
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @RickeyD

    There is no such thing as a works doctrine in rabbinical Judaism. There is an obligation to follow laws and a parallel expectation of belief. Either one without the other accomplishes something but is incomplete. Action without belief is required but empty. Belief without action is incomplete as well. Instead of trying to force a Christian notion of what a religion is on Judaism why not let Judaism be what it is, even if that means you can't criticize it?

    And why criticize Judaism for its understanding of righteousness and atonement by limiting yourself to Christianity's vision of it (though I admit I have no idea what "sin void atonement" is)?
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1483 Pts   -  
    I don't expect to be "saved" by anything. Faith OR Moses. I expect to be taking a dirt nap with the rest of you, Jewish or not.  :relaxed:
    SwolliwxlJ_dolphin_473
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @AlofRI
    that does present another problem -- Judaism does not have the notion of "salvation" that Christianity has so when Christians judge Judaism and apply their idea of "salvation" it is clear that they are not talking of Judaism.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1483 Pts   -  
    I know just about nothing of Judaism. I know more than I want about Christianity. I just gave my opinion, that's it.
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @AlofRI
    And a fine opinion. My point just is that I wouldn't try to characterize atheism by citing my bible's scriptural explanation of it. If I have questions, I ask. Whether or not I agree on the whole "dirt nap" issue is immaterial.
    AlofRIxlJ_dolphin_473
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @rosends ; You said: "There is no such thing as a works doctrine in rabbinical Judaism. There is an obligation to follow laws and a parallel expectation of belief. Either one without the other accomplishes something but is incomplete. Action without belief is required but empty. Belief without action is incomplete as well. Instead of trying to force a Christian notion of what a religion is on Judaism why not let Judaism be what it is, even if that means you can't criticize it?"

    Judaism is what it is...death without hope as it's a works doctrine of man's effort to obey a Law that only condemns them to death in sin and death in Hell...this is the Rabbinical Jewish Error.

    Romans 10 (ESV)


     Brothers,[a] my heart's desire and prayer to God for them [Israel] is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[b]

    The Message of Salvation to All

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

    18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

    “Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
        and their words to the ends of the world.”

    19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

    “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
        with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

    20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

    “I have been found by those who did not seek me;
        I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

    21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”


    You said: "And why criticize Judaism for its understanding of righteousness and atonement by limiting yourself to Christianity's vision of it (though I admit I have no idea what "sin void atonement" is)?"

    Because Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and without Yeshua, the Jew and the Gentile dies in sin and dies in Hell. There is only one correct version of Christianity and Judaism...Judaism is a religion of death and hopelessness as it offers ZERO atonement while defining mankind's sin before God.





  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    So your position is just that of a random Christian who doesn't understand Judaism and only accepts what Christian texts (erroneously) say. OK. When the day comes that you rise above your doctrinal misconceptions and actually want to learn about Judaism, instead of assuming that your non-Jewish texts are telling you something accurate when they aren't, just let me know.

    If you would prefer, I can insult your religion and tell you how yours is mired in doctrinal errors and falsehoods so you can circle your wagons and lash out that Christianity must be correct because the gospels say so, and the gospels are accurate because Christianity is correct.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @rosends ; I understand Judaism, apparently...you don't. The Christian text is Authored by the Holy Spirit, just as the Hebrew Text. You know nothing of substance if you disagree that Judaism is a religion of works and hopelessness. You're free to criticize Christianity, this is why you're headed to death in Hell...you don't believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Mediator for your sin (John 3:16-18). The Jewish people murdered their Messiah upon a tree and then exclaimed that His blood be upon them and their children, so it is and so you are (Matthew 27:25). If you reject Yeshua, you will die in sin and Hell (John 8:24).






  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    Your claim now is that I don't understand Judaism? And you substantiate that by citing a text which has no authority in Judaism? What, exactly, is your training in knowing Judaism? Is it limited to Christian texts?

    If my knowledge of Christianity was limited to what I have read in the Koran, I probably wouldn't tell a Christian that he doesn't understand his religion. But if you want to remain arrogant and ignorant, have fun. I'll keep calling you out for it.
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 1705 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    I don't agree with either religion, but I have to agree with @rosends in this debate. @RickeyD is claiming that he is an authority on a religion that is not his own, and somehow believes he is so high-and-mighty to decide that his religion is correct and everyone else is wrong.
    rosends
  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473
    I think it is important to add that I have no problem with his saying that my religion is wrong. His religion does see mine as wrong. But what he is actually saying is that his religion sees his religion's mispresentation of my religion and calls IT wrong. Let him condemn me for what I actually believe, not for what he claims I believe. I'm fine with that.

    If I said "Christianity is wrong because Christianity believes that shoes are always green, and they aren't" then the error would be in my misstatement about the other religion.
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; Your words tell it all...




  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    Quite funny that you quote that verse without understanding its meaning. When I think of your position, I like the verse before as well:

    "The house of the wicked will be demolished, But the tent of the upright will flourish."

    So I'm good, thanks.

  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; There is no one "upright" who attempts to obey a Law for atonement and righteousness. It is only by grace through faith in Jesus as Lord that one finds righteousness with God the Father.


  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    and you continue to try and prove your assertions by citing texts that have no value to me. Shall I show your errors by quoting the koran or Harry Potter? Clearly, you know nothing of Judaism other than what your idea of Christianity has invented. 
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends The Scriptures will have value to you one Day as you are dying in your sin and headed to a second death in Hell in your unbelief. There is no atonement for sin void faith in Jesus as your God and Mediator for that sin and the Father is NOT going to permit your unrepentant sin to enter His Kingdom subsequent to the death of your body in Time (Revelation 21:27); so then, without Christ, you have no hope. You have obviously made your decision. Have a good life.


  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    Now, should I quote texts you have no use for, for you telling you that your entire understanding of everything is wrong and you will suffer because of it?

    Well I won't, because I recognize that that is a dumb thing to do. Maybe someday, you will grow up and realize it as well. Best of luck with that.
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; Quote your texts...let's hear them.


  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    I guess a fun place to start is with משמתו נביאים האחרונים חגי זכריה ומלאכי נסתלקה רוח הקדש מישראל 
    (יומא 9ב)
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; I'm not Hebrew...try again, in English?

  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @RickeyD
    First, I now you're not Hebrew. Hebrew is a language.
    Next, I'm shocked that you cannot understand. Wait, you want to know what my texts say but you can't read them. But I thought you knew all you needed to know about Judaism!

    Anyway, in a nutshell, my text teaches that all prophecy ended 300 years before Jesus was born, so any claims in your texts to prophets or prophecy are clearly lies. 
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @rosends Your text is a lie because the Greatest Prophet is Jesus Christ who provided the Revelation. So, your text is not to be trusted. Hebrew is a language and a people group...you should study...https://www.gotquestions.org/who-Hebrews.html





  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    Your text is a lie because my text is right. See what I did there? Somehow you aren't convinced by my text, but that's OK, I'm not convinced by your text. That's why doing this is dumb, but thanks for the invitation.

    And no matter what that website says, Hebrews WERE a group, not "are." To understand that, it would be helpful if you knew the language and could study the texts in Hebrew. But you can't.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited November 2020
    @rosends ; There is no "language" barrier, just your unbelief and your stubbornness. What is stated in the Hebrew is easily conveyed in the English with study and diligence and the indwelling Spirit. Your book is not complete void the Covenant of Grace that superseded and is superior to the Covenant of Law which only defined sin void atonement (Romans 3:20). If you believed Moses you would believe Jesus but you're blind to this Truth and you are headed to death in your sin and death in Hell and you will NOT listen in your arrogance and self-endowed superiority.

    John 5, Jesus said,

    45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46 If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”



  • rosendsrosends 131 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD
    Do you ever actually concvince anyone of anything by saying things that have no value? I mean, if I pointed out to you that my texts say that yours have no value and your book is incomplete, would that mean anything to you? Do you thikn what you are saying have any meaning to me? If I said that you are stubborn, would that change you at all? I'm sincerely curious about what you think you are accomplishing here. Do you think that you are convincing an outside reader by repeatedly quoting from texts that someone outside your theological construct doesn't care about?

    Other than looking silly, you aren't making any impact on me because you insist on building arguments based on material with is senseless and you are being stubbornly adherent to things which have no value. Here is something for you to work on using your study, diligence and indwelling Spirit.

    לֹ֣א יָדְע֗וּ הַנֹּֽשְׂאִים֙ אֶת־עֵ֣ץ פִּסְלָ֔ם וּמִתְפַּלְלִ֔ים אֶל־אֵ֖ל לֹ֥א יוֹשִֽׁיעַ
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @rosends ; I am not called to convince, I am called to tell you the truth of Scripture and what the Holy Spirit has said. You are on the broad road (Matthew 7:13-14) headed to death in sin (John 8:24) and ultimately death in Hell (Revelation 20:11-15) and you won't listen (Luke 16:31). My Lord has put me here to warn you, to plead with you to repent of your sin (Luke 13:3) turn to Yeshua as God (Philippians 2:8) and Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) for your sin and find life in His Name; otherwise, you have no hope (John 14:6; Matthew 16:26).



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