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Religious Compulsion

Debate Information

I am compelled by my religion to tell you nothing in particular about your religion or your belief. I am compelled to answer questions and explain things that people misunderstand, but not persuade, or convince anyone of anything.

So if you believe as you believe, or don't believe as I believe, that's fine by me. I won't be peppering anyone with quotes purporting to show how anyone should be convinced that my beliefs need to be adopted.

Unless.

Unless you present misinformation, or mistakes about what I believe. Then I will try to correct or explain. Other than that, I'll just go back to working while watching football.
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  • @rosends

    If you are a Christian, then you don't truly believe in your faith because if you did, you would try to convince non believers that they will end up in Hell. The Bible tells Christians to witness to others.

    If a child was playing in traffic, would you convince him to get out of the road so not to get killed? That would be the loving thing to do.
    Christians who love their fellow man will warn them of an eternal Hell. It's called loving and caring for your fellow man.
    MonketrunkGnosticChristianWFMcArdle
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -   edited November 16
    @We_are_accountable

    Good thing I'm not a Christian, then.
    AlofRIGnosticChristian
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  


    When you read the bible ..did you notice ..as i did...that the gospels are anonymous??.....and why do they not appear in history until 160ad??@rosends
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @mickyg

    No, because I don't read the gospels as part of the bible.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1111 Pts   -  
    GOD! I KNOW I'm not a Christian!
    GnosticChristian
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
     I am compelled to answer questions

    Perhaps you could answer this question. What steps have you taken to address your state of delusion and, if not, why not?
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    I am compelled to answer questions about my religion and help people understand it. If you have no questions about that, but just want to ask something on your own agenda, I see no need or compulsion to answer.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    If you have no questions about that, but just want to ask something on your own agenda, I see no need or compulsion to answer.

    I did present a question relating to your religion.
    delusion: [dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n] NOUN an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
    The belief in God is an idiosyncratic belief which is contradicted by reality or rational argument.

    Are you now trying to tell us that you will only answer questions that are part of your agenda or are you going to address the perfectly valid question that I posed?

    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    Exactly: I only feel compelled to answer ones that are part of my agenda. Your underlying problem with religion is not part of my agenda, nor is your choice to use your time frequenting a message board which focuses on something which you clearly don't like. I won't ask about why you see this as a valid use of your time. You want to tilt at windmills, have at it.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    Exactly: I only feel compelled to answer ones that are part of my agenda. Your underlying problem with religion.......

    I have no underlying problem with religion whatsoever and asked a perfectly valid and relevant question.
    Do you really think that back-tracking on your OP and making personal attacks on others is anything but the fact that you have an underlying problem with your own topic?
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    @rosends

    If you are a Christian, then you don't truly believe in your faith because if you did, you would try to convince non believers that they will end up in Hell. The Bible tells Christians to witness to others.


    Romans 14:1-13
    As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

    it is not your job to inform others of their sins as a human because you too sin.

    Matthew 7:1-5
    Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but does not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    "I have no underlying problem with religion whatsoever and asked a perfectly valid and relevant question.
    Do you really think that back-tracking on your OP and making personal attacks on others is anything but the fact that you have an underlying problem with your own topic?"

    So calling religion a state of delusion doesn't indicate that you have a problem with it. OK, live and learn. Your question might be valid in some contexts but that doesn't make it relevant to my need to explain elements of my religion to people who want to learn about it or who make mistaken claims about it, misrepresenting it.

    That's the beauty of its being my topic. Whether or not you think something is relevant to it is likewise irrelevant.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    So calling religion a state of delusion 

    And, I said nothing of a sort, did I?
    I asked a very specific and valid question and it is my contention that if you are unable to adequately address your own thread. You have now admitted that you will only address your own agenda and as you put it, "relevant to my need".
    Whether I think the question is relevant is beside the point....it is a question of fact that I correctly supported with the relevant evidence and which, by the way, you failed to challenge (Unless you present misinformation, or mistakes about what I believe. Then I will try to correct or explain). 
    Making personal attacks, misquoting and being hot-headedly arrogant is hardly being true to your words in the OP you made, don't you think?
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable
    It's called loving and caring for your fellow man......

    .....provided of course, that "your fellow man" lives and breathes the same brand of wacky beliefs as you do. Otherwise hate the guts of everybody else.
    And if an atheist or a person of another faith walks in front of a bus, let the bastard die and go to Hell for eternal suffering.
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    If not religion, then what delusion did you accuse me of being under (as you label it, "your state of delusion")? If it wasn't my religion, then it isn't relevant to a thread about my religion. If it was, then you are equating my belief in religion as a delusion which is, as stated, irrelevant.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    If not religion, then what delusion did you accuse me of being under

    I think you have become very confused, twisted and, understandably, very unsettled over my question.
    What I wrote was succinct and unambiguous as per the 7th and 9th posts. They cannot be interpreted in any other way than what I stated. I suggest that you go back to those posts, read exactly what I said then make a reasonable attempt at answering the question that I correctly and legitimately asked in the 7th post.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    In one, you asked about my "state of delusion." In the other, you said it was about my religion which you then tied to my belief in God. If your contention is now that the religion and the belief in God is not the state of delusion, then what state of delusion do you intend? If you can't spell out what you believe my state of delusion to be, then how can your question be answered?

    You really need to be clearer if you want anyone to even consider answering your question.

    So I will repeat -- if you think that my belief in God and religion is my state of delusion, then your question isn't relevant. If you are referring to something not related to my belief in God and religion as a delusion, then your question isn't relevant.

    Feel free to clarify what you are asking, so I can ignore it properly. You're a hoot!
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    In one, you asked about my "state of delusion." In the other, you said it was about my religion which you then tied to my belief in God.

    Come on, you are regressing to the childish tactic of mirroring your adversary.
     You made a thread. I asked a very straight forward, unambiguous question.
    You have made up all kinds of pathetic excuses to avoid it.
    You are a traitor to your own hollow, meaningless words.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -   edited November 16
    @Swolliw
    All I have said is that your question was unambiguous initially and it, in this unambiguous state asks something which isn't relevant. You then claimed that what I presumed your question to be was wrong, so now I'm admitting that it is, to me, ambiguous (and while it might still be irrelevant, I'd like to know on what level I can call it that), and yet you refuse to clarify it. How curious. When you figure it out, let me know.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    All I have said is that your question was unambiguous initially and it, in this unambiguous state asks something which isn't relevant.

    You are now repeating the same excuse.
    Nevertheless, you are still (no doubt, deliberately) stumbling on a very concise, unambiguous question that has been clearly explained to you.....What steps have you taken to address your state of delusion and, if not, why not?
    Will you kindly answer the question, yes or no?
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -   edited November 16
    @Swolliw
    What "state of delusion"? You presume a particular reference but have yet to clarify exactly what that reference is.
    In a later post you indicated that this was related to religion, defining "delusion" and then concluding that, "The belief in God is an idiosyncratic belief which is contradicted by reality or rational argument."
    So what exactly and precisely is the delusion you believe I am under. If you can't put it into words in a simple and clear statement, then how can you expect me to mock you? Have some consideration!
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    the gospels are part of the bible.
    WITHOUT the gospels there was no jesus on earth.
    ALL of PAULS story came from revelation not sight.....@rosends
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @mickyg
    No, Gospels are part of the "Christian bible."
    As I am not Christian, they are not part of my bible. As to the statement, "WITHOUT the gospels there was no jesus on earth" I'm totally OK with that.
    GnosticChristian
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    are you jewish?
    what is the torah@rosends
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @mickyg
    Yes I'm Jewish.
    The word Torah refers to a variety of things and concepts, depending on its use. So how I define it would depend on how you used it and what exactly you are asking.
    GnosticChristian
  • @rosends

    I assumed that obvious fact.

    Your religion sounds like the anything goes believe in nothing religion whereby we are all good people and deserving of Heaven.

    It's called man's new age cult, whereby personal accountability for sin no longer exists. In this new age cult, people can support killing unborn babies for any reason, and they are considered "good" people.

    In this new age cult, people can lift up the newest in vogue sexual orientation as natural and normal, and condition our children in public schools to deny the Science of Biology.

    No thanks, I will stick with my Christian faith whereby personal responsibiity, not abandoning our children, possessing the humaity to protect all innocent human life, are the important things in life.

    Christians will speak ut when it comes to protecting our innocent vulnerable lives. We will speak out against all the selfish parents abandoning their children. We will speak out on the importance of moral values that will protect our children their entire lives.

    Your religion will be the death of America as we witness all the broken families, and no one says a thing for our children. You are too politically correct to actually speak to sin and all the terrible consequences. That would bring the conversation back to your own life choices.
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable
    "Your religion sounds like the anything goes believe in nothing religion whereby we are all good people and deserving of Heaven."

    If you don't understand what Judaism believes, maybe you should ask a question instead of jumping to an erroneous conclusion. All the misstatements which follow could have been avoided if you asked instead of assuming you knew.
    GnosticChristian
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    everyone who is christian calls the moronic verses  the bible
    JEWS call it the torah...@rosends
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    everyone who is christian calls the moronic verses  the bible
    JEWS call it the torah...@rosends
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    everyone who is christian calls the moronic verses  the bible
    JEWS call it the torah...@rosends
  • mickygmickyg 141 Pts   -  
    everyone who is christian calls the moronic verses  the bible
    JEWS call it the torah...@rosends
  • @rosends

    When you chose not to divulge your religion, then we are left with assumptions.

    It brings me back to my point where people such as Jews, or Catholics, or others, support the Democrat Party that keeps no restriction abortions legal. Would you consider yourself a good person when electing those who vow to keep all abortions legal?

    Did Jewish laws allow for killing any unborn baby for any reason? There are millions of Jewish Democrats.
    GnosticChristian
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -   edited November 16
    @We_are_accountable
    You wrote, "When you chose not to divulge your religion, then we are left with assumptions."

    And when I didn't divulge my religion, you naturally assumed that "Your religion sounds like the anything goes believe in nothing religion whereby we are all good people and deserving of Heaven." even though that had no relationship to anything I wrote. So what you are left with is not just an assumption, but a poor one, based on nothing.

    Next.

    The Jewish laws of abortion are complex. In a nutshell, before viability, abortion is permitted. Even afterwards, in a variety of cases, abortion is still permitted. The Torah's mention of abortion (actually a caused miscarriage) indicates that the fetus is not considered a live person before a certain point and Judaic understanding still puts the life and well being of the mother ahead of the fetus even once the fetus is considered a live person.

    Of course, the Jewish laws of abortion relate to Jews, so many Jews might choose to support a woman's right to choose because a given woman might not be Jewish so she might want to choose something that a Jewish woman would or could not. 
  • @rosends

    Thank you for telling us your version of Jewish law, that goes totally against the Old Testament Jewish law in the Bible. In the Old Testament Bible, it says that anyone who even accidentlally causes a woman to lose her unborn baby, shall be punished.

    So you are saying that Jews who vote for the Democrat Party support killing ANY baby at ANY stage for ANY reason (this is what the Democrat Party supports).

    To deny what you support is a lie! Does Jewish law say it is wrong to lie?
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable
    I enjoy how you call it my "version" of Jewish law. The fact is, you don't understand Judaism and Jewish law. The biblical text says that one who causes a woman to miscarry (in the particular case) does not pay for a life, but for a harm to the woman, thus making clear that the fetus is not an independent life.

    So I'm saying that Jewish law includes abortion as an acceptable behavior in many cases and you just don't understand Judaism. You keep asking about what Jewish law says and then when I tell you, you say that it is wrong. When it comes to Jewish law, you are well out of your league.
    mickygGnosticChristian
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    What "state of delusion"? You presume a particular reference but have yet to clarify exactly what that reference is.

    I did clarify such exactly, authoritatively, and precisely and you know that very well.
    Are you going to continue with poor excuses and deceptive delaying tactics, or are you going to answer the question?
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    And I have happily admitted that I don't see your intention. So I'm just asking for clarification and yet you seem reluctant to state your position. Wonderful -- more giggles for me!
  • ImbsterImbster 148 Pts   -  
    I have questions like if God did play favoritism in the ancient times? Also what was the point about Esther and Ruth's stories in a masculine time period?

    Why did God get mad at Moses "for that one mistake" and didn't even care to look at his resume of helping His Divine cause?? Moses deserved to be in Jerusalem and some rock ruined it.

     Why does Jesus teach so differently from the God in the Old Testament???If the Abrahamic God resonates with Jesus that one should turn the other cheek, then Moses should have been saved. I think the Abrahamic God's principles changed over time until today...well until he decided not to appear anymore. I don't believe God is every omni, I think God changes and the Bible is like a big story of how God changed how he thinks and treats humans.

    I read the codex more than the Bible if possible but I doubt too it's reliable but it's a bit more reassuring that some of the codex collected and translated are very old religious texts without much alteration and every time I read one I hope it's an unaltered version.
    I'd rather see the Bible as some omega literary text open to lots of interpretation and filled with plot holes and filled with frustrating endings and scenes we don't like.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Imbster
    A can address (briefly) certain items you raise:
    1. "did [God] play favoritism in the ancient times"
    Yes. Those who favored him were favored in return. Abraham recognizes Him so He blesses Abe's lineage.

    2. "what was the point about Esther and Ruth's stories in a masculine time period?"
    Maybe that it wasn't a "masculine time period" but that the right person was chosen for the job regardless of gender. It might have been Deborah, or Channah, Miriam or Serach.

    3. "Why did God get mad at Moses "for that one mistake" and didn't even care to look at his resume of helping His Divine cause?? Moses deserved to be in Jerusalem and some rock ruined it."
    A very difficult question. The simple answer is "the higher you are, the more problematic even the smallest failure looms."

    Jesus questions I won't answer.

    Judaism sees that the plain, written text is complemented by a lot more, and by the commentaries which help us understand. We read the text with these additional notes and sources and they give context and explanation.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    So I'm just asking for clarification and yet you seem reluctant to state your position.

    Yet another limp-wristed, girlish excuse.
    No accounting for honesty, is there?
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    Are you a robot?
    How is asking for clarification an excuse? And what makes an excuse "girlish" and or "limp wristed"?
    Are you claiming that asking for an explanation is somehow feminine, or is the way in which I asked somehow female in nature? And are you saying that feminine is somehow inferior and trying to diminish me by associating me with it?

    "Limp wristed" is often a reference to homosexuality. Are you saying that homosexuality is inferior, or that I should be offended that you associate my behavior with a portion of the human population?

    You then ask about "honesty" which doesn't seem relevant. How is my asking for clarification a betrayal of the notion of honesty? In fact, my admission that I don't understand, and the subsequent request is the most honest thing I could do.

    Please clarify your potentially sexist, homophobic and inaccurate statement, and, again, simply list what delusion you claim I am under.

    Or just keep digging the hole deeper. Whatever floats your boat.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 712 Pts   -  
    @rosends
    Will you answer the question?
    Simple...yes or no.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    You have yet to clarify what you are asking. You wanted to know,
    "What steps have you taken to address your state of delusion and, if not, why not?"

    (it is a poorly worded question from the outset as it presumes steps have been taken, so the option of "if not" does not reflexively refer to any stated boolean choice, but that can be ignored)

    I am looking for your to clarify what state of delusion you are referring to. How can I know how to respond if I don't see the question as referencing anything in particular?

    All you need to do is clarify exactly what "state of delusion" you are talking about. That shouldn't be that tough, and yet you haven't done so.
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • @rosends

    I am not out of my league when it comes to phonies who pretend to have faith in God, while cherry picking and twisting whatever verse they can find to justify their inhumanity to our most innocent vulnerable lives. It's kind of like activist Justices using a privacy clause in our constitution to legalize the killing of our babies. Pure selfish inhumanity to pander to man's darkest soul.

    You can not find one verse in your scripture that says it is ok to kill any unborn baby for any reason. You have concocted this pro abortion stance out of pure barbaric selfish convenience. It truly amazes me that any Jewish person who understands the history of the holocaust could support No Restriction abortions.

    Have you so quickly forgotten the inhumanity of mankind towards groups of people who become an inconvenience to a nation?

    You are the very reason Christ came to end Jewish law. Laws that can be manipulated and used at the whims of powerful religious and secular leaders. Christ usher in a faith built on LOVE FOR ALL PEOPLE, not just the convenient ones!

    You give me the verse that says it is ok to kill unborn babies for any reason and at any stage. This is what Democrats support!

    If your religion is so callous towards innocent Scientifically proven human life, then I have lost much respect for it. You are correct about one thing. I am ignorant to what your religion stands for, but if you are any example, it stands for corruption within it's ranks, just as we see in our Government.

    God says he hates the shedding of innocent blood, but you could not care less. Those unborn babies shed much blood in every abortion.
    I believe the world is your God, and convenience supercedes all. If people like you stood up for innocent life and refused to vote for Pro abortion politicians, late term convenience abortions would be outlawed in the next election cycle. It is on your shoulders and God is not blind to it.

  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable
    So you know nothing of Jewish law, have no respect for the religion that Jesus followed and don't know about using textual evidence. Got it.

    You can keep your Jesus and your frothing at the mouth.

    If you want to read up on a treatment of the law, here is one source https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
  • @rosends

    Thanks for admitting that you have NO VERSE supporting the Democrat Party's radical support of all abortions for any reason!

    You have created your own man made cult, but still calling it Judaism. You keep the parts of scriptures you agree with, and twist those that do not.

    It's called a cult!

    I respect judaism that stays true to it's tenets, not your man made cult. I am not singling our Judaism when it comes to these man made cults. There are plenty of so called Christian churches who have twisted verses they refuse to embrace for sake of world acceptance.

    Your cult fits in nicely with all the other man made cults. You all preach from the same playbook. Your man made doctrine also says we are all ok just the way we are. We are all good people deserving of Heaven.

    Sorry, I actually care for all people and do not want them ending up in bad places. Teaching people right from wrong gives them good lives and good futures. Saying nothing is like letting kids play in the street. It's not compulsion when speaking out on right and wrong. It's called humanity.
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable
    First, I said nothing about either political party. That's your angle.
    Second, I gave you a website that has the verse in question on it. if you don't want to read, then that's on you.
    Next, your decision about what is or is not Judaism and what is "man made" is irrelevant (and reeks of ignorance). I could easily label whatever sliver of religion you invented and follow as a cult. Is that useful? Your compulsion is not to teach but to tell people that they are wrong if they don't agree with you. 

    By the way, because i don't expect you to do any of your own research, here are the necessary verses:
     (Ex. 21:22–23)

    22And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders]. 
    23But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life,

    So if a man causes the loss of a fetus, but the woman doesn't die, there is only a monetray payment because the fetus is not a person. If the woman dies, then the man pays for the loss of a life. Notice how the text says that the woman "miscarries but there is no fatality."

    If you would rather this in Hebrew, I can accommodate.
  • @rosends

    You keep trying to create pro abortion references from the Bible or your own scriptures. STOP IT! THERE ARE NONE!
    I asked for verses that say killing unborn babies for any reason is ok. Just admit you have NONE!

    This is why I have a hard time debating phonies. I will never get a straight answer to any question I ask. This creates anger and destroys debates.

    I have read the verses you speak to and they have done nothing more then prove my case.

    Maybe you can answer this question without distorting verses. What happens to people who do not follow Judaism when they die? Is there a Hell or a Heaven?

    If so, what kind of compassionate loving Jewish person would gleefully allow millions of people to end up in Hell, without warning them of the consequences of their beliefs?
  • ImbsterImbster 148 Pts   -   edited November 17
    @We_are_accountable There actually is an abortion guideline in the Bible.

    Numbers 5:11-31, NIV gives a detailed guideline on how to prove one's wife isn't cheating. If she's cheated, she will have a miscarriage because of the bitter water. The context should be the same despite different biblical versions though NIV calls it the "law of jealousy". Even though language dictates it was "miscarriage", pregnancy was intentionally terminated using the bitter water and so this is still abortion but the ancient way.

    This is similarly parallel to abortion done because of a socially perceived immoral act which reflects some current cases. For example when a teenage girl gets it on with another man other than the boyfriend and gets pregnant and so chooses abortion to come clean keeping the whole thing a secret.

    I don't think the bitter water recipe was preserved and so I'd like to think this isn't part of the methods we still use to prove adultery.
    We_are_accountable
  • rosendsrosends 90 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    "You keep trying to create pro abortion references from the Bible or your own scriptures. STOP IT! THERE ARE NONE!
    I asked for verses that say killing unborn babies for any reason is ok. Just admit you have NONE!"

    So you didn't read what I cited. That's OK.

    "Maybe you can answer this question without distorting verses. What happens to people who do not follow Judaism when they die? Is there a Hell or a Heaven?"

    Yes, there is a reward place and a punishment place. Most who die will go to the reward place, if not immediately, then within a year after the death.


    GnosticChristian
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