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Should Jerusalem be the capital of Israel?

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  • piloteerpiloteer 1274 Pts   -   edited January 23
    @TreeMan

    Because of the threat of me being labeled anti-semetic, I would prefer we hear your ideas first. I personally believe the US should not consider any Israeli capitals legitimate until Israel allows the Palestinians to have basic human rights.
    PlaffelvohfenNomenclatureanarchist100xlJ_dolphin_473TreeMan
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @TreeMan It already is.
    Nomenclaturerosends
  • anarchist100anarchist100 447 Pts   -   edited April 1
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    @TreeMan It already is

    According to who? Donald Trump? Lol.

    According to Trump we can cure Covid with cleaning fluid.

    DeeCYDdharta
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature According to the majority of people living there and according to the government that currently holds Jerusalem, just for starters.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    According to the majority of people living there

    The "majority" of people living there are illegal settlers and the government in control runs an apartheid state where the rightful settlers are cruelly and systematically persecuted. The Prime Minister of that government is presently being tried by his own Attorney General for corruption and taking bribes.

    It never ceases to amaze me how wingnuts can cut out all the information they don't like the sound of, and pretend like it simply does not exist.

    DeeCYDdhartaDebater123TreeMan
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    According to the majority of people living there

    And it's not even true in the first place!! According to the majority of people living there, Tel Aviv was the capital right up until Donald Trump opened his big ignorant mouth and decided he was going to overrule the Gods of two of the three major world religions.

  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature ;Who defines the illegal and rightful settlers?

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apartheid

    What evidence do you have that there is enough segregation in Isreal for it to be considered apartheid?

    Frankly, I think you're getting off-topic this debate isn't to bash Isreal because it is a Jewish rather than an Arab state. But rather to discuss whether or not Jerusalem is the Capital of Isreal, which, quite honestly, is rather silly since it would be the same to debate if Washington DC is the capital of the united states. A Capital of a Country is decided by the government that presides over the government and the government that presides over Jerusalem and Isreal states that Jerusalem is the capital of Isreal.

  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature Prove that the majority of Israeli's believe Tel Aviv to be the capital.

    There is no reason to suggest Tel Aviv is the capital of Isreal.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    Who defines the illegal and rightful settlers?

    The UN, whose Charter specifies that one cannot seize territory from others through aggression, nor give it away once it has been seized. Jerusalem was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, it was then re-captured by the British Empire, and eventually given to the current settlers after a lengthy (and bloody) terrorist campaign against the British in Palestine. See:-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine

    What evidence do you have that there is enough segregation in Isreal for it to be considered apartheid?

    See:-

    "A Palestinian Health Policy Institute survey over two years recorded the deaths of seventy-three babies at 'military checkpoints, barriers and trenches' and found that many women facing difficult deliveries had no choice but to give birth at home with no medical help." (Pilger 2007, p127)

    "Two-thirds of the 621 children killed at checkpoints, in the street, on their way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head, neck and chest -- the sniper's wound. Two-thirds of the children were under fifteen. Clearly, soldiers are routinely authorised to shoot to kill the children in situations of minimal or no threat. These statistics attract far less publicity than suicide bombings." (Pilger 2007, p164-165) Quoting 2004 entry in the British Medical Journal.

    PILGER, J., 2007. Freedom next time. 2nd ed. Great Britain: Bantam press. 


    Debater123TreeMan
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    @Debater123

    There is no reason to suggest Tel Aviv is the capital of Isreal.

    Tel Aviv was the temporary government center of the State of Israel until the government moved to Jerusalem in December 1949. Due to the international dispute over the status of Jerusalem, most embassies remained in or near Tel Aviv.[53]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv

    The status of Jerusalem is disputed in both international law and diplomatic practice, with both the Israelis and Palestinians claiming Jerusalem as their capital city.[1][2][3][4] 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem

    East Jerusalem was annexed during the 6 day war of 1967, which means Israel holds the territory illegally. East Jerusalem was not part of the original state of Israel. Understand?

    Debater123
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    1: That's irrelevant, you didn't bother to explain what it means to be an illegal and rightful settler, but rather how the UN denounces imperialism.

    2: Babies dying at military checkpoints, barriers or trenches isn't evidence of discrimination, same with women giving birth at home, these aren't signs of discrimination.

    Context is required for the second one, what were the children doing when shot, for all we know they could be child suicide bombers, how many children of other religions were also shot?
    Nomenclature
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    You literally just proved that Tel Aviv is not the capital of Isreal, but Jerusalem is since December 1949, I see nothing more to talk about.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    @Debater123

    That's irrelevant, you didn't bother to explain what it means to be an illegal and rightful settler
    Buddy, are you on medication? You asked me:-
    Who defines the illegal and rightful settlers?

    And I answered you. The UN does.

    You are demonstrating a pattern on this website of asking questions, being given answers, and then responding with the bizarre claim that the answers to your own questions are "irrelevant"!!!!

    Debater123TreeMan
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    @Debater123

    You literally just proved that Tel Aviv is not the capital of Isreal
    You literally just proved you can't read.

    Jerusalem vs. Tel Aviv – What is the Capital of Israel?

    When the United States first recognized Israel, it did not imply any particular view on the status of Jerusalem. They had supported the original UN plan in 1947 to establish an international regime in the city, but later came to feel that the final status of Jerusalem should be resolved through negotiations. They traditionally have opposed declarations made by both Jewish and Arab parties regarding Jerusalem as capital.

    Pre-Trump, Jerusalem was not recognised as the capital of Israel. It was Tel Aviv.

    https://www.sporcle.com/blog/2018/06/jerusalem-vs-tel-aviv-what-is-the-capital-of-israel/


    Debater123CYDdhartaTreeMan
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 2
    @Debater123
    Babies dying at military checkpoints, barriers or trenches isn't evidence of discrimination

    I tell you what, buddy. Come to my checkpoint, I'll shoot your baby in the face, and we'll see if you feel the same way.

    Debater123TreeMan
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    1: The United Nations did not define Illegal and rightful settlers, what you cited was simply anti-imperialism by the United Nations.

    2: Try to keep in mind that international recognition means nothing in purely domestic affairs.

    3: What you just said also isn't a sign of discrimination since killing my baby doesn't necessarily mean you discriminate against me or my baby.
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    The United Nations did not define Illegal and rightful settlers

    What are you actually blathering about? The United Nations is the sole arbiter of international law and the UN Charter forbids the (permanent) acquisition of land through conquest. Hence, it defines illegal settlers.

    Try to keep in mind that international recognition means nothing in purely domestic affairs.

    Try to keep in mind that when you sign the UN Charter you are legally bound by its terms and cannot simply ignore them as and when you feel like it.

    killing my baby doesn't necessarily mean you discriminate against me or my baby.

    LOL!!!

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 32 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Your evidence is 14 years old.  Do you have more current evidence that Israel is letting newborn infants die at checkpoints?
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    Your evidence is 14 years old.  Do you have more current evidence that Israel is letting newborn infants die at checkpoints?

    Do you have any evidence that they have stopped?

  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1494 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    You literally just proved that Tel Aviv is not the capital of Isreal
    You literally just proved you can't read.

    Jerusalem vs. Tel Aviv – What is the Capital of Israel?

    When the United States first recognized Israel, it did not imply any particular view on the status of Jerusalem. They had supported the original UN plan in 1947 to establish an international regime in the city, but later came to feel that the final status of Jerusalem should be resolved through negotiations. They traditionally have opposed declarations made by both Jewish and Arab parties regarding Jerusalem as capital.

    Pre-Trump, Jerusalem was not recognised as the capital of Israel. It was Tel Aviv.

    https://www.sporcle.com/blog/2018/06/jerusalem-vs-tel-aviv-what-is-the-capital-of-israel/


    You're completely wrong.  Not only has Jerusalem been recognized by the US government as the capitol of Israel, that very position has been codified into US law for more than a quarter century.


    https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ45/PLAW-104publ45.pdf
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You're completely wrong.

    Your problem being that I provided a link which proves I'm completely right. Blind denial is not a counter-argument, and neither is posting further links which do nothing to contradict the original link.

    Not only has Jerusalem been recognized by the US government as the capitol of Israel, that very position has been codified into US law for more than a quarter century.

    FALSE. As per usual, you omit all the information which debunks you, for example:-

    Bill Clinton didn’t want it, the Israeli prime minister was against it, and yet the U.S. Congress voted overwhelmingly 23 years ago to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Successive presidents blocked the law’s implementation until this year, when Donald Trump decided to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/05/11/the-untold-story-of-the-jerusalem-embassy-act-of-1995/

    So like the thoroughly dishonest individual you are, you quote legislation as "proof" that this "very position has been codified into US law for more than a quarter century", without bothering to mention that every successive US president blocked this legislation, for the very reasons quoted above which you claim I am "completely wrong" about.

    What you are sir is simply a liar. 

    CYDdharta
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    1: Again, it didn't define what an illegal and rightful settler is, I would also like to point out that Isreal gained no new land outside of what was promised in the Balfour Declaration(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration) these lands were modern-day Isreal, Jordan, and I believe parts of lebanonn.

    Also, I believe that the Jews are both Rightful and legal settlers in this context. Rightful, meaning moral, completely fits this description of them, since it is moral to settle land promised to you and which historically has been yours and inhabited by your people. While it is legal because, since the Balfour declaration, Jews were mostly able to settle in Isreal without legal repercussions, this is also true today.


    2: That is irrelevant.
    Nomenclature
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1494 Pts   -  

    Your problem being that I provided a link which proves I'm completely right. Blind denial is not a counter-argument, and neither is posting further links which do nothing to contradict the original link.

    You problem, being that you posted a link to some obscure blog post and I posted a link to US law.


    FALSE. As per usual, you omit all the information which debunks you, for example:-
    Bill Clinton didn’t want it, the Israeli prime minister was against it, and yet the U.S. Congress voted overwhelmingly 23 years ago to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Successive presidents blocked the law’s implementation until this year, when Donald Trump decided to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/05/11/the-untold-story-of-the-jerusalem-embassy-act-of-1995/
    So like the thoroughly dishonest individual you are, you quote legislation as "proof" that this "very position has been codified into US law for more than a quarter century", without bothering to mention that every successive US president blocked this legislation, for the very reasons quoted above which you claim I am "completely wrong" about.
    What you are sir is simply a liar. 

    Nothing you've posted is relevant.  It is a matter of settled us law that;

    (2) Since 1950, the city of Jerusalem has been the capital of the State of Israel.

    This is US law, and has been since 1995.  The fact that successive administrations have had to issue waivers further underscores the fact that the US government recognizes Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel and weakens your argument.  Waivers wouldn't have had to be issued if the US government hadn't already recognized Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel.  The fact is, you have no argument, you have no position, and you know it.  You're simply lying, as is your standard practice.  You're really are a  pathetic person.  

  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 4
     Again, it didn't define what an illegal and rightful settler is

    Please see above. Repeatedly refusing to acknowledge the evidence which debunks your claim does not prove your claim.

    I would also like to point out that Isreal gained no new land

    You are wrong/lying about that too. See:-

    Israel seized the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    what was promised in the Balfour Declaration

    The Balfour Declaration was not a promise. It was:-

    A public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during the First World War announcing support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

    And here we see that your own link debunks you as a liar:-

    This text thereby avoided committing the entirety of Palestine as the National Home of the Jewish people, resulting in controversy in future years over the intended scope, especially the Revisionist Zionism sector, which claimed entirety of Mandatory Palestine and Emirate of Transjordan as Jewish Homeland [147][200] This was clarified by the 1922 Churchill White Paper, which wrote that "the terms of the declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded 'in Palestine.'"[202]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

    Debater123
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -   edited April 4
    @Nomenclature
    1: No evidence you've sent debunked my claim, that's the thing, I just proved how Jewish settlers are legal and rightful.

    2: I see you are cherry-picking whatever I say, I said that they annexed nothing that they gave back and didn't initially start except for the Golan Heights, keep in mind that Jordan actually annexed the west bank during the Israeli war of independence, so Isreal just took back their territory during the 6-day war in regards to Jordan.
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 4
    No evidence you've sent debunked my claim
    The issue is not one of disagreement, or one of lack of evidence, but rather one of you being a liar.
    I see you are cherry-picking whatever I say

    I am not even reading everything you say. I am reading until I find something you are lying about (which usually gets me one or two sentences deep), and then I am proving your statements are false.

    Debater123
  • BonitaVanhooserBonitaVanhooser 120 Pts   -  
    It is already, and credit goes to Trump. Maybe Israelis promised their support for Trump's second turn, but unluckily, nothing happened. No doubt, few so-called humanity champions should show some courage and talk about poor Palestinians' miserable situation. Yes, if the land belongs to Palestinians then it should be there. 
    NomenclatureDee
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    1: How am I a liar?

    2: If you refuse to argue with my actual argument, then have a good day.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    How am I a liar?

    In the way that you make a lot of false statements and then double down on them after they are demonstrated to be false.

    If you refuse to argue with my actual argument

    A fine example. Thank you.

    Dee
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 4
    @BonitaVanhooser

    It is already, and credit goes to Trump.

    Yes, credit to him for killing yet more people. Credit to him for being too to understand why all the other presidents avoided getting involved.

    But only a few hours into its existence, the new embassy has already shown its true cost: devastating bloodshed.

    By 10 pm local time, at least 52 Palestinian protestors had been killed in Gaza by Israeli troops, and 1,200 were wounded in deadliest day in years for the border conflict. 

    https://qz.com/1277046/donald-trumps-jerusalem-embassy-cost-25-deaths-in-gaza-20000-dollars-and-128-angry-countries/


    Dee
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    1: Care to give some examples?

    2: That isn't a lie, if anything you just acknowledged that you regularly do it by not even reading everything I say.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    Care to give some examples?

    Care to read the debate you are posting in? You'll find plenty of them.

    Debater123
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 4
    @Debater123

    That isn't a lie, if anything you just acknowledged that you regularly do it by not even reading everything I say.

    It is a lie, because you wrote the false sentences I debunked. Nobody else wrote them. Claiming these sentences are not your "actual argument" is false. Did you just include them for no reason? No, clearly you included them because they were part of your argument, and formed the basis upon which your later sentences were predicated.

    You are quite simply a dishonest person.

    Debater123
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    You have debunked nothing thus far, you have simply been cherry-picking my arguments and attacking them without proper context behind it, along with personal insults sprinkled like salt on your arguments, you have been committing fallacy after fallacy after fallacy.

    Give me one thing you have debunked, one thing, I guarantee you I will prove how you haven't debunked what I said.
    rosends
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 32 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    You made the claim Israel lets newborn infants die at checkpoints.  As evidence, you cited a 14-year-old report.  Things may have improved since then.  As the claimant, it is your task to provide solid current evidence.  My task is to judge it. 
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 5
    [Duplicate]
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    You made the claim Israel lets newborn infants die at checkpoints.
    That is untruthful. In response to a request for "evidence" that Israel has been running an apartheid regime, I quoted Jon Pilger, who sourced a Palestinian Health Policy Institute survey which, over two years, recorded the deaths of 73 babies at Israeli military checkpoints.
    As evidence, you cited a 14-year-old report.
    Do you expect Jon Pilger to publish a book every single year telling you how many babies die at Israeli checkpoints? The book was published in 2007. 
    Things may have improved since then.
    Do you have any evidence that they have improved since then?
    As the claimant, it is your task to provide solid current evidence.
    What an absolutely absurd strawman fallacy. You just admitted that "my" claims (i.e. Jon Pilger's claims) do not concern "current" events. They are about events which occurred 14 years ago. So, after lying about the "claim" I made initially, you are:-

    1) Assuming things "may" have improved.

    2) Demanding I debunk your assumption.

    3) Pretending that is my burden of responsibility.

    Unless you have more recent evidence to prove things have improved then you have no grounds to attack the age of the source, and you certainly do not have grounds to demand I provide evidence to support claims which you have simply invented to disguise the falsity of your own argument.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 5
    @Debater123

    You have debunked nothing thus far

    Everything you have written thus far is false, and the above only continues that pattern of dishonesty. I have provided multiple credible sources to debunk your arguments so there is little more that I can do. I cannot cure delusion.

  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -   edited April 5
    @Nomenclature The amazing thing is that you claim that you have claimed to have debunked everything yet you cannot cite a single instance of you doing so, or even over what.
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 32 Pts   -   edited April 5
    @Nomenclature
    Your response makes me think I did a poor job of presenting my position and point of view.  I am open to accepting and believing Israel lets Palestinian newborns die at checkpoints.  In order to do that I need strong current evidence.  I am asking if you have it.  I am not attacking your claim and make no claims of my own.  The situation may or may not have changed.  I don't know.  That's why current evidence is needed to determine that.

    I hope this explanation contributes productively to the conversation.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 5
    @JulesKorngold
    Your response makes me think I did a poor job of presenting my position and point of view.
    Not at all. Your presentation was fine. The issue was that you didn't read through the text properly and assumed I had said something I didn't.
    I am open to accepting and believing Israel lets Palestinian newborns die at checkpoints.

    Good for you.

    In order to do that I need strong current evidence.  

    Not my problem. 

    I am asking if you have it.

    I have nothing which you can't find yourself on Google or any other search engine. 

    Do you have any reason to suppose that no babies have died at Israeli checkpoints since 2007? You're not really making much sense. 

     I am not attacking your claim and make no claims of my own.

    You began the exchange by making a claim which is false, and then predicated the rest of your entire post on it.

    The situation may or may not have changed.  I don't know.  That's why current evidence is needed to determine that.

    What does that have to with me?

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 32 Pts   -   edited April 5
    @Nomenclature
    I believe the goal of a debate is not to "win", but to find the truth of an issue.  What is your view?

    Yes, I have researched the treatment of newborns at Israeli checkpoints.  I found nothing relevant and current.  That's why I am asking you since you are making the claim.  That's why you are involved in determining the truth - you made the claim.
    NomenclatureDebater123
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    I believe the goal of a debate is not to "win", but to find the truth of an issue.

    Then why did you report my thread about chess right after we found the truth that you have no idea what you are talking about?

    I don't like dishonest people, and I REALLY don't like people who report me as an alternative to losing a debate. In fact I find that absolutely pathetic.

    Dee
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -   edited April 6
    @JulesKorngold
    Yes, I have researched the treatment of newborns at Israeli checkpoints.  I found nothing relevant.
    If contradicting yourself were a sport, I have no doubt you would be captain of the national team.
    Dee
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    Literally the second entry on Google:-

    Israeli Checkpoints Have Become Death Traps for Occupied Palestinians

    26 Jun 2020

    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-checkpoints-have-become-death-traps-occupied
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    In 2016, Israel extrajudicially executed 95 Palestinian civilians including 36 children.

    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-checkpoints-have-become-death-traps-occupied

    Let me guess. They don't count unless they were at checkpoints.  :#
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    Israeli checkpoints – which flagrantly violate Palestinians’ freedom of movement and cut the West Bank into cantons – have become death traps where Palestinians are immediately sentenced to death for the slightest mistake or even on mere suspicion.

    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-checkpoints-have-become-death-traps-occupied

    Amazing really. You tell so many lies I wonder whether you have some form of mental health problem.
    Dee
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 32 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Yes, admin here took down the chess debate after seeing your (and Dee's) toxic behavior.  Keep it up and I hope they ban you.
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    Yes, admin here took down the chess debate after seeing your (and Dee's) toxic behavior.  Keep it up and I hope they ban you.


    “Toxic behavior “ ? You were asked several times to defend your position you couldn’t do so and your only option was to ask for the debate to be withdrawn.

    Why not post up a debate topic on luck and see how you fare out , bet you won’t
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