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Should a Universal Basic Income be everyone’s right?

Debate Information

I believe a basic income should be a universal right, a basic income should cover life’s necessities as in food, shelter clothing and healthcare anything else is an abuse. Agree / disagree please state why.
Debater123LiamThePersonCYDdhartaNomenclatureZeusAres42all4actt
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  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -   edited March 12
    @Dee There isn't any point for a minimum wage currently, if I and my employer decide for me to work at 5 dollars an hour, why should the government step in and stop that, that is a consensual deal where I and my employer agree on the amount of wealth I obtain that is worth my occupation, the government has no business in interfering on such consensual affairs
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotDeeall4acttZeusAres42TreeMan
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 791 Pts   -   edited March 12
    So your "right" forces others to work in order to give others money or services they've not earned.  What happens if the money runs out or no one works...You're supposed right is gone.  Real rights dissappear like that and aren't reliant on others.

    A right to speech or pursuit of happiness is something you automatically have, even by yourself it is there, it can only be suppressed by authoritarians.  Your right on the other hand requires others to exist and participate in order to uphold it.

    The founding fathers of the U.S. made sure they articulated that your rights are something that every individual has, it's not something granted by the government.  Yours requires granting by the government.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeall4acttTreeManImbster
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2472 Pts   -  
    I don't know that it should be a "universal" right, but I could get onboard with it as a benefit of "citizenship" though... 

    And there are a lot of different systems to chose from too... Universal Basic Income? Negative Income Tax? Wage subsidies (sometime called "participation income)? Partial basic income (PBI)? Citizen's dividend, like Alaska's Permanent Fund? 

    I agree with UBI on principles, but I'm not decided on the best system yet, but I find a Citizen's Dividend quite appealing...
    ZeusAres42SkepticalOneDeeall4acttTreeMan
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -  
    @Debater123 ;
    There isn't any point for a minimum wage currently, if I and my employer decide for me to work at 5 dollars an hour, why should the government step in and stop that
    Because you will most likely die.
    ZeusAres42xlJ_dolphin_473PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaDebater123DeeTreeMan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 1385 Pts   -   edited March 12
    @Debater123
    The problem arises when there are no jobs that pay well, and people have no choice but to accept wages they otherwise would not have chosen. Technically they “choose” to accept the wages, but if there aren’t any available jobs which pay better, can you really call that a choice?
    Minimum wage is there so that employers are paying their employees enough for them to have their human rights: namely to live and to be free from hunger. Usually I advocate for a small government, but giving people their human rights is not optional, and if minimum wage guarantees that (or at least helps to guarantee it) then it’s a policy I can get on board with.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42Happy_KillbotDeeNomenclatureTreeMan
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -  
    The reason we should have a UBI is because it would guarantee a minimum living standard for everyone, which would in turn mean that fewer people would be disincentivized from entrepreneurial activities resulting in more people entering the market place with higher skills and competitive business practices. This will mean that more people will purchase & sell things, raising everyone's quality of life.

    If you are worried about people "not working" or "taking money from people who earned it" keep in mind that the same issue exists within our current capitalism model, albeit institutionalized by private companies rather than government programs. Large businesses and corporate interests make it difficult for new businesses to get started, which in turn means that everyone suffers as these to-big-to -fail zombie enterprises become complacent and greedy, rather than doing anything which actually benefits the country and common citizen as a whole. This creates a motivation for people to not contribute to the economy via labor because the value of that labor is far outstripped by wages. Why should people do any job if the wage they get paid is far below the actual value of that labor and there is little room for negotiating a superior salary? No deal is often better than a bad one.

    Besides, the organizations and individuals who would ultimately be financing these endeavors have been benefiting from the privilege of low-cost labor for a long time, effectively taking advantage of these workers to fund their own growth and monopolization. This as already stated contributes both to keeping new businesses out of the market and is in effect, withholding money from those who should have earned it. In this way, both of the common objections to a UBI are already well established against the people by the very same interests who tend to oppose it.
    PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaZeusAres42SkepticalOneDeeTreeManall4actt
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3811 Pts   -   edited March 12
    It makes no sense for an economical gain to be a right. Rights, by definition, protect you from retaliation by other people if you do something; they do not entitle you to something that other people need to produce to give you.

    For you to get your basic income, the government has to take the money from my earnings and transfer to you. This obviously violates my own property rights. And if it takes the money from your earnings and gives to me, then it violates your property rights.
    "Universal basic income" is not a right, but a severe violation of rights and has no place in a civilized society.

    Which, in turn, means that there are very few, if any, truly civilized societies nowadays. Take the US: people currently receiving COVID unemployment benefits make more in the benefits alone than I make in my work. So I work hard every day, study, get up early in the morning to do some sports so I can get to doing my job in top shape, having far less time for leisure activities than most people... and then some guy from West Virginia who I have never met, who is doing nothing with his life and watches Netflix series all day, gets a hefty cut off my earnings and enjoys a more luxurious quality of life than me.
    That is not even just a robbery; that is some kind of a satirical robbery, where the lazier you are, the better off you are.

    Universal basic income would be this, magnified. No matter how small, receiving money stolen from others just for existing is deeply wrong.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenDeeall4acttTreeMan
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 791 Pts   -  
    @Debater123
    The problem arises when there are no jobs that pay well, and people have no choice but to accept wages they otherwise would not have chosen. Technically they “choose” to accept the wages, but if there aren’t any available jobs which pay better, can you really call that a choice?
    Minimum wage is there so that employers are paying their employees enough for them to have their human rights: namely to live and to be free from hunger. Usually I advocate for a small government, but giving people their human rights is not optional, and if minimum wage guarantees that (or at least helps to guarantee it) then it’s a policy I can get on board with.
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    If what your doing doesn't pay well then it's your responsibility to provide a service that does.

    What human right guarantees that you don't go hungry?
    UBI only gets talked in countries with people who have extreme privledge.  Good luck providing that in poor countries...where did their rights go?


  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 791 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot More people will be encouraged to be entrepreneurial because UBI allows to live happily doing whatever they want?  Also after creating the business they are going to be taxed out the wazoo to provide this UBI.  I don't see this as an incentive all.  More often than not, I'd say the average person doesn't want to have the responsibility of owning the business.  If they were able to live comfortably most would retire at first chance.

    These so called businesses that are to big to fail often support the high min. wages and regulatory requirements...they're the only ones that can survive them.

    "Why should people do any job if the wage they get paid is far below the actual value of that labor"  
    Who determines the wage is lower than the value of the labor.  The fairest way is via supply/demand.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeall4acttTreeMan
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ;

    Now apply that same reasoning to someone working in a job where the value of their occupation is more that 3x what they receive in wages, and explain to me why that is not theft given they don't have any other opportunities to start a new business with their skills since the corporate interests who they would otherwise be working for will be able to effectively undermine their operation via tax corporate incentives and government bailouts.
    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOneDeeTreeMan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    More people will be encouraged to be entrepreneurial because UBI allows to live happily doing whatever they want? 
    Yes, because now there is more liquidity in the markets which means that there is more opportunity for profit. People will spend money if they have it, and that means profits can be made.
    Also after creating the business they are going to be taxed out the wazoo to provide this UBI.  I don't see this as an incentive all.  More often than not, I'd say the average person doesn't want to have the responsibility of owning the business.  If they were able to live comfortably most would retire at first chance.
    A while back I proposed a 2-class system for exactly this reason, but even that system relied heavily on UBI to work, without necessarily creating a heavy tax burden. To put it simply, the l0sers who would rather have no responsibility or who just want to "show up, do the job and go home" would basically end up at or near the average wealth for the lower class as defined by what UBI provides. (which is just above the poverty level) Sure, if someone is lazy they can do that, but why anyone would want to do that given how depressed they would be as a result is beyond me.
    These so called businesses that are to big to fail often support the high min. wages and regulatory requirements...they're the only ones that can survive them.
    This is a completely different topic.

    Who determines the wage is lower than the value of the labor.  The fairest way is via supply/demand.
    So what would you expect to happen when labor supply is artificially increased by pushing businesses out of the marketplace and/or vertical integration?

    Obviously, the value of that labor drops making this a double gain for large enterprise. This means that companies can now pay their employees significantly less than the value they gain from employment, meaning they are effectively stealing their time & effort.
    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot Then it's my choice to die.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenDeeTreeMan
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -  
    @Debater123 ;

    Do you need to talk to someone?
    PlaffelvohfenDebater123ZeusAres42DeeTreeMan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Debater123Debater123 500 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 Only 1.9% of America's jobs are on minimum wage.https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2019/home.htm
    And there would be no reason to suggest that the 98.1% would have lowered wages because of the removal of a minimum which they were not on.
  • @Dee
    Are you just asking for a global minimum wage?
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    There isn't any point for a minimum wage currently, if I and my employer decide for me to work at 5 dollars an hour, why should the government step in and stop that? 

    Apologies I never allowed for people like you that when offered a wage negotiate with your employer for a lower wage after successfully going through an interview process , allowing for your “mindset “ why not accept the wage offered and if you wish to work for half that give the other half away to a work mate? 

    When you arrive home imagine your wife’s joy at you successfully negotiating your employer down 
    Debater123TreeMan
  • anarchist100anarchist100 447 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    Then how would anything get done? I like the idea but we still need people to work to get stuff done.
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100

    Then how would anything get done?

    Do you not think a wage should cover life’s basic necessities? Why’s that?


    I like the idea but we still need people to work to get stuff done

    So the solution is pay them slave wages or treat them with respect? 
  • anarchist100anarchist100 447 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    If people just get a basic livable income why would they need to work? I like the idea but I don't see it working out very well.
  • Do you not think a wage should cover life’s basic necessities? Why’s that?
    Lifes basic necessities put you in an autimnated bed with a feeding tube where you get turned every 3-4 hours. The cost is less than most people make even working part-time.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    I agree completely in principle, although I would add I think we should disband the monetary system entirely. At least paper money. Make everything digital.
    Dee
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    If people just get a basic livable income why would they need to work? I like the idea but I don't see it working out very well.
    Why would you want someone to "need" to work? Surely it should be their choice? Otherwise it's slavery? You get that, right? If you force people to work against their own will then that's slavery.

    That's what the "land of freedom" appears to be grounded in: the notion that slavery is freedom.
    DeePlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    That's what the "land of freedom" appears to be grounded in: the notion that slavery is freedom.


    Tragically true Nom 
    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Yes Nom fair point I agree 
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87


    It’s as if you’re talking Swahili most the time as I haven’t a clue what you’re saying.

    Do you ever actually answer a question without going off on a James Joyce style stream of consciousness rant?
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    I don’t care what your founding fathers said it’s immaterial to paying a fellow human being a basic livable wage.

    Why do you resist the right of a worker to a fair days pay for his services?
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Citizens dividend sounds like a pretty good option 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -   edited March 13
    @MayCaesar

    "Universal basic income" is not a right, but a severe violation of rights and has no place in a civilized society


    I guess most of Europe is “uncivilized “ for treating people with dignity and respect using your standards 

    It’s pretty strange that you think a man or woman who wish to work and secure the necessities of life for themselves and their families should not be properly paid  for their services , whats even more remarkable is that you think it an “abuse” of your and societies right to make this legal 

    Using this rationale you no doubt think the employer who profits from underpaying his staff needs to be protected by law to continue doing so 

    No doubt you think it only fair that you and people like you get a decent wage right ? You said before even on a very low wage in the US one can afford health - care , education if they were “careful “ with their money do you still believe that?


    Which, in turn, means that there are very few, if any, truly civilized societies nowadays. 

    Your basis for what constitutes a  “civilised” is rather strange to be frank 



    Take the US: people currently receiving COVID unemployment benefits make more in the benefits alone than I make in my work. So I work hard every day, study, get up early in the morning to do some sports so I can get to doing my job in top shape, having far less time for leisure activities than most people... and then some guy from West Virginia who I have never met, who is doing nothing with his life and watches Netflix series all day, gets a hefty cut off my earnings and enjoys a more luxurious quality of life than me.


    Really ? In the US Covid payments are higher that your earnings as ( I believe) a lecturer ? Seriously?

    Thats an outrageous slur on fellow Americans saying” they are doing nothing with their lives “ and a surprisingly untypical sweeping generalization by you 

    That is not even just a robbery; that is some kind of a satirical robbery, where the lazier you are, the better off you are.

    You’re embracing absurdities now by claiming people wanting to work but cannot on account  of Covid are “lazy” and “thieves” 

    Universal basic income would be this, magnified. No matter how small, receiving money stolen from others just for existing is deeply wrong.

    Utter nonsense , how are you suddenly “lazy” and a “thief” if you get paid a fair livable wage?


  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100

    If people just get a basic livable income why would they need to work? I like the idea but I don't see it working out very well.

    I’m taking about a basic minimun income /wage? 
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100

    Did you ask why your debate was deleted ?
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers


    So your "right" forces others to work in order to give others money or services they've not earned. 

    That statement makes no sense , an employer has no right employing someone to exploit them , that’s what you’re supporting this ridiculous notion that a worker is not entitled to a basic wage to ensure the necessities of life is absurd 

    In a previous debate I asked you how an American on a low wage can afford even basic health - care , education and you couldn’t supply an adequate answer

    I seems to me you think only a certain proportion of your fellow citizens are only  entitled to the basic necessities of life , that is what you’re suggesting right?

     What happens if the money runs out or no one works...You're supposed right is gone.  Real rights dissappear like that and aren't reliant on others.

    It’s always what if ? 

    A right to speech or pursuit of happiness is something you automatically have, even by yourself it is there, it can only be suppressed by authoritarians.  Your right on the other hand requires others to exist and participate in order to uphold it.

    My or  others peoples right to be treated with dignity and respect as regards the workplace and a fair wage is something any decent government should uphold and enforce by law 


    The founding fathers of the U.S. made sure they articulated that your rights are something that every individual has, it's not something granted by the government.  Yours requires granting by the government.

    Yes and the founding father wore powdered wigs , bring back wigs ......I  say grant it , it can only benefit society 
  • Dee said:
    @John_C_87


    It’s as if you’re talking Swahili most the time as I haven’t a clue what you’re saying.

    Do you ever actually answer a question without going off on a James Joyce style stream of consciousness rant?
    I asked one question. Are you just looking for a global minimum wage?
    I gave one answer. Lifes basic necessities put you in an automated bed with a feeding tube where you get turned every 3-4 hours, the cost less than most people make even working part-time.
    Sorry didn't mean to tax your intellect.
  • SonofasonSonofason 303 Pts   -   edited March 13
    Come on people...just get a job and be responsible for your own existence.  I didn't want you here.  I didn't ask for you to be here.  And I don't want to contribute to you being here.  You do it.
    Happy_KillbotDee
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4759 Pts   -   edited March 13
    @Sonofason ;
    Come on people...just get a job and be responsible for your own existence.  I didn't want you here.  I didn't ask for you to be here.  And I don't want to contribute to you being here.  You do it.
    You sociopathy is showing.
    ZeusAres42xlJ_dolphin_473Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -   edited March 13
    @John_C_87

    Lifes basic necessities put you in an automated bed with a feeding tube where you get turned every 3-4 hours, the cost less than most people make even working part-time.

    That makes absolutely no sense at all

    Sorry didn't mean to tax your intellect.

    Thats great thanks for that  ,  I’m a dab hand at the Times cryptic crossword which is a veritable cake walk compared to the majority of your posts 

  • @Dee
    "That makes absolutely no sense at all."
    Maybe this will help, the necessities of life-based on a medical standard are a feeding tube, an automated bed that moves you every 3-4 hours, in a room for two.
    Are you reading off a script or something you do not appear to carry consistency across many of your debates? It's like your just arguing for political view and not the states of governing over issues that face us all.
  • @Dee
    In basic what you are seeking is a form of globally registered receipt every one can just be issued over the idea of receipts issued in relation to danger, skill, and necessity.
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87

    Maybe this will help, the necessities of life-based on a medical standard are a feeding tube, an automated bed that moves you every 3-4 hours, in a room for two.

    What the devil are you on about “ , the necessities of life-based on a medical standard are a feeding tube,” absolute gibberish 

    Are you reading off a script or something you do not appear to carry consistency across many of your debates? 

    Sure says the guy who makes up words who’s meaning only he knows 

    It's like your just arguing for political view and not the states of governing over issues that face us all.

    Again utter nonsense 
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87

    In basic what you are seeking is a form of globally registered receipt every one can just be issued over the idea of receipts issued in relation to danger, skill, and necessity.

    Ooooooookayyy .....you go and have a little lie down .......
    NomenclaturePlaffelvohfen
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    Sonofason said:
    Come on people...just get a job and be responsible for your own existence.  I didn't want you here.  I didn't ask for you to be here.  And I don't want to contribute to you being here.  You do it.
    Your problem being that getting a job isn't a feat you can do alone. You need the co-operation of someone else who is willing to hire you. At the moment in the US there are 328 million people but only approximately 155 million jobs. And that includes all the unskilled labour which few people even want to do. 

    Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I'm pretty sure you can't satisfy the needs of 328 million different people with only 155 million jobs.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1495 Pts   -  

    Your problem being that getting a job isn't a feat you can do alone. You need the co-operation of someone else who is willing to hire you. At the moment in the US there are 328 million people but only approximately 155 million jobs. And that includes all the unskilled labour which few people even want to do. 

    Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I'm pretty sure you can't satisfy the needs of 328 million different people with only 155 million jobs.

    You want to count babies in cribs and bed-ridden seniors as part of the workforce?  Don't you think that's a bit harsh?
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    You want to count babies in cribs and bed-ridden seniors as part of the workforce?  Don't you think that's a bit harsh?

    I didn't even mention those things. If you want to deduct those from the 328 million then that's fine. You'll still be left with significantly more people than jobs so it makes no difference.
    CYDdharta
  • @Dee
    Sure says the guy who makes up words who’s meaning only he knows.
    The truth was I had been assigned a legal matter by the democratic legislative process and you do not like the basic principle approach that a new word was created to address new definitions created by liberties taken by people on others as a united state.

    Ooooooookayyy .....you go and have a little lie down .......
    Won't change the problem when we have no idea a paper-printed dollar is a legal receipt it simply covers all debt. as a united state, the united state is a freedom of speech made to describe a large or the largest group that can be brought together based on principle and not democracy or Martial law/Law Enforcement. Legal prejudice is created when not all laws are selected to be enforced for economic reasons. Thank you, a nap does sound good.
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87


    Thanks for clearing that up I’m gonna smoke a joking have a few-more beers and attempt to read your piece again , I’m sure it will make perfect sense when I’m stoned 
  • To change the subject.
    When you had been educated did they tell you that you will be learning to increase your income or learn legal facts?
  • DeeDee 3865 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87

    When you had been educated did they tell you that you will be learning to increase your income or learn legal facts?


    I was told many things I rejected most and learned to forge my own way , I work for no man but myself and set my own income , I also choose how many hours I work and my work is in a category that’s unique as it’s defined as unique and of benefit to the state and thus  tax free 
  • all4acttall4actt 220 Pts   -  
    My question is, who is going to pay for this UBI?
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1495 Pts   -  

    I didn't even mention those things. If you want to deduct those from the 328 million then that's fine. You'll still be left with significantly more people than jobs so it makes no difference.

    You didn't mention them specifically, but you certainly did count them.  It isn't all that hard to have more jobs than people in the workforce, Pres. Trump did it.  You just need someone competent in the White House.  Unfortunately that isn't the case currently.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 569 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:

    I didn't even mention those things. If you want to deduct those from the 328 million then that's fine. You'll still be left with significantly more people than jobs so it makes no difference.

    You didn't mention them specifically, but you certainly did count them.
    I didn't mention babies in cribs, old age pensioners or a workforce, so you used three straw men in the space of a single sentence. Go you.
    CYDdhartaPlaffelvohfenxlJ_dolphin_473
  • anarchist100anarchist100 447 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Ok, but why would people work if they had a livable income given to them for free? It would all fall apart.
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