What is evil?

JulesKorngold

Evil can be defined by its consequences. Actions that cause unnecessary pain and suffering, either physically or emotionally, are often considered evil.

Bogan

I think that what defines evil is total selfishness.    The evil person is a psychopath who has no regard at all for either the welfare or the feelings of others, because he thinks that he is the centre of the universe, and life is all about him.   From the age of two, children need to be taught that they must not think this way.    The act of "socialising" children is to make them understand that they are part of a self protecting group, and they must try and sublimate their entirely normal feelings of selfishness in order to be considered a valued member of the group.  Each one of us daily fights a battle between where we draw the line on being selfish, and where we put the overall welfare of the group first.    Selfishness is considered "bad".    Putting your community ahead of yourself is considered "good", or morally correct.   People who sacrifice their lives to protect others are called "heroes" and they earn the respect of their communities forever.  

Putin

Ukraine.

all4actt

Totalitarianism throughout history has always been evil.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;I think that what defines evil is total selfishness. 

I throughly agree totally with you there 100% becuase For example if I pick a random example of say some one who is so selfish and self centered that he only wants to believe the most nasty things that goes a round in his head. Now thats real evil at its most evil because that person actually chooses those things to think about and believe.unlike some one who say is born as a spazo in the first place and has no hope in the world of thinking any better. 

The experts agree that these evil people like Hitler for example had issues growing up like bed wetting and there Dads beating them up especially biffing them a round the ears. 

Some experts in analizing sports people like foot ballers and boxers have found that when some one gets his head knocked a round to much they will suffer from loosing a lot of his brain usage and they turn real evil because they only cling on to the most nasty and paranoid things that come in to there heads.

And then theres psycho cybernetics and thats where the experts agree that the brain works very much like a computer and vice versa. And any IT guy will all ways tell you garbage in garbage out. So if some one who is evil because of the examples I mentioned only feeds only garbage in to his head then garbage comes out. Sure we all have bad thoughts from time to time and most of us deal with our demons by balancing out the bad thoughts with the good thoughts.

But the problem with evil people is that they do not balance things out because they choose to use the one side of there brain that keeps the garbage. Which is why we call these people half brains.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: There are Objectively evil things in the world, so there is a God

A point that I make frequently when the subject of evil comes up is that the only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver.  If there is no God, then objective evil doesn't really exist.  It would be inaccurate to ascribe to nature and matter intentions.  A hurricane is just a natural phenomena.  It has no moral intentions.  'Evil' would then just be what an individual or group don't like, rather than something objectively measured.  What one individual thinks of as evil, another could classify as good.  The same goes for groups.  So if you think it is morally wrong to rape children, no matter what others say, then the only way to logically hold that position is to believe in an objective lawgiver beyond individuals and group opinion or influence.  

The inability of atheism to have a strong moral foundation is an inherent flaw in this belief system.  In order to make claims of good and evil, atheism must borrow from other religious traditions, for they do not logically follow from a belief that things came about from randomness and chaos.  

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin said:  
The inability of atheism to have a strong moral foundation is an inherent flaw in this belief system.  In order to make claims of good and evil, atheism must borrow from other religious traditions, for they do not logically follow from a belief that things came about from randomness and chaos. 

From the Gemini chatbot:  

That's a common argument, but let's unpack it. Here's why it doesn't hold water:

1. Morality Predates Religion: Human societies long predate complex religions. Cooperation and empathy, the building blocks of morality, were crucial for survival. We evolved to feel compassion and a sense of fairness, promoting social cohesion. Religion often codified existing moral principles, not the other way around.

2. Reason, Not Revelation: Morality doesn't need divine dictation. We can reason about the consequences of actions. Stealing harms others, honesty builds trust. These are logical conclusions, not pronouncements from a deity.

3. Shared Human Values: Across cultures, there's a core set of moral principles: don't kill, don't steal, help those in need. This suggests an innate human sense of right and wrong, not dependence on specific religious texts.

4. Borrowing Doesn't Equal Dependence: Atheists might acknowledge the value systems of past societies, but they can re-evaluate and adapt them based on reason and changing circumstances. Morality is a dynamic process, not a set of unchanging commandments.

5. Divine Morality Isn't Flawless: Religious doctrines often contain contradictory moral codes. Forcing a rigid adherence to ancient texts can hinder moral progress. Atheism allows for a flexible and evolving approach.

The key point is: Atheism doesn't deny good and evil. It simply finds the foundation for morality in human empathy, reason, and the pursuit of a just society, not divine pronouncements.

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

@just_sayin said:  
The inability of atheism to have a strong moral foundation is an inherent flaw in this belief system.  In order to make claims of good and evil, atheism must borrow from other religious traditions, for they do not logically follow from a belief that things came about from randomness and chaos. 

From the Gemini chatbot:  

That's a common argument, but let's unpack it. Here's why it doesn't hold water:

1. Morality Predates Religion: Human societies long predate complex religions. Cooperation and empathy, the building blocks of morality, were crucial for survival. We evolved to feel compassion and a sense of fairness, promoting social cohesion. Religion often codified existing moral principles, not the other way around.

2. Reason, Not Revelation: Morality doesn't need divine dictation. We can reason about the consequences of actions. Stealing harms others, honesty builds trust. These are logical conclusions, not pronouncements from a deity.

3. Shared Human Values: Across cultures, there's a core set of moral principles: don't kill, don't steal, help those in need. This suggests an innate human sense of right and wrong, not dependence on specific religious texts.

4. Borrowing Doesn't Equal Dependence: Atheists might acknowledge the value systems of past societies, but they can re-evaluate and adapt them based on reason and changing circumstances. Morality is a dynamic process, not a set of unchanging commandments.

5. Divine Morality Isn't Flawless: Religious doctrines often contain contradictory moral codes. Forcing a rigid adherence to ancient texts can hinder moral progress. Atheism allows for a flexible and evolving approach.

The key point is: Atheism doesn't deny good and evil. It simply finds the foundation for morality in human empathy, reason, and the pursuit of a just society, not divine pronouncements.

Jules, you have a created a strawman.  No one said that you don't have morals.  What I have observed is that atheists can not claim there are objective moral values. To do so you need an objective moral lawgiver.  How can you, the product of random and flawed processes, according your own view, with a mind created by chaos and randomness, assert that your values are the most moral ones?  Logically, one must assume that your values are as flawed in their creation as your brain.  The most an atheist can claim is that they favor or disfavor something, but another atheist could disagree and who is to say which of you is right?  

Get a better AI Jules.  One that doesn't make strawman arguments.  If morality is a 'dynamic process' as your AI says, then it is not OBJECTIVE MORALITY which does not change its opinion based on popular opinion.  It would seem that not only is your AI morally inferior, but intellectually inferior also.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

The inability of atheism to have a strong moral foundation is an inherent flaw in this belief system.  In order to make claims of good and evil, atheism must borrow from other religious traditions, for they do not logically follow from a belief that things came about from randomness and chaos.  

The inability of theism to have a strong moral foundation is an inherent flaw in this belief system. In order to make claims of good and evil, theism must borrow from other religious traditions, for they do not logically follow from a belief that things came about from randomness and chaos.  

A point that I make frequently when the subject of evil comes up is that the only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver.  If there is no God, then objective evil doesn't really exist.

Seriously just. You know the ole sayin 'tell a big enough lie enough times repeatedly and people will begin to believe it' borne out of communism? You trying to convince yourself of something or readers? Objective evil doesn't exist outside of human interpretation. Oh, and the fact there is no evidence of your god. Can't forget that reality based fact.

Or, Your god does exist and purposely tricks, hides, tempts, leads, and toys with the minds of its creations down irrationally evil paths under a false facade of benevolence. After all a cloak and dagger god who binds us with predestination and also admits to create the evil, and it claims to punish us for for evil, thus able to offer an illusion of freewill. But not the real thing and therefore is immoral by its own existence...

“There is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things” ~Isaiah 45:6&7

just_sayin

@Factfinder
Objective evil doesn't exist outside of human interpretation.

If you believe God does not exist, then that would be a true statement.  So we agree that atheism is a system without any objective morals.  Thank you for your support and acknowledgement of what I've been saying.

Oh, and the fact there is no evidence of your god. Can't forget that reality based fact.

I would argue that there are lots of good reasons to believe that there is a God.  1)  The universe had a beginning.  Anything that begins to exist must have a cause to exist outside of itself - that suggest that there is a God.  2)  The fine-tuning of the universe is more likely associated it with an intelligence than random chance.  3)  The complexity of even the simplest lifeform.  Science can not reproduce a process that brings life from non-life.  When you look at the DNA strand of even a single celled organism, it is way too complex to have arisen by chaos or accident.  And a hundred years of failed tries by scientists, strongly suggest that it is the product of intelligence.  4)  Miracles - there is lots of evidence of miracles that defy scientific explanations - the crippled suddenly walking, the blind seeing, those with amputated limbs - suddenly having them back and fully functional, the dead coming back to life.  One would have to ignore all the eye witness accounts, the medical records, and medical testimony to deny miracles.  And as I may have mentioned once or twice, I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Or, Your god does exist and purposely tricks, hides, tempts, leads, and toys with the minds of its creations down irrationally evil paths under a false facade of benevolence. After all a cloak and dagger god who binds us with predestination and also admits to create the evil, and it claims to punish us for for evil, thus able to offer an illusion of freewill. But not the real thing and therefore is immoral by its own existence...

“There is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things” ~Isaiah 45:6&7

The word translated as 'evil', means calamity or chaos in the original.  Evil is not a tangible thing.  It is the deprivation of good.  In much the same way darkness is not a tangible thing, but the absence of light.  Evil can only be known if some true good source exists.  Therefore, evil is an evidence of God's existence  It would be wrong to blame God for the choices we ourselves make.  God has given us free will, we made our choices not God.  As the Bible says 

 For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

It seems obvious that you want to cite the Bible to blame God for the actions of others, but you want to ignore Bible verses which speak directly to the issue that don't share your viewpoint.  You want to blame God for giving you the power to defy Him and do your own thing.  Just because God knows the mistakes we will make, does not mean, He made those mistakes.  Instead, God allows you free will, and even provides a means of forgiveness for the actions we have taken.  That doesn't seem evil at all, but a merciful being who offers forgiveness to beings who do evil and then blame Him for our actions.

maxx

it is a human concept, for evil does not exist in nature, nor in the lower animals. @KhasimAmedu

Bogan

@Barnardot ;    I throughly agree totally with you there 100% 

YOU agree with ME, Barnadot?    Oh shiit, I must be wrong, then?

MayCaesar

Might be very controversial, but I honestly think that "evil" is a childish concept. When we are children, trying to figure out what is the wrong and what is the right thing to do, we want simple answers: we do not want to read philosophical treaties. A bully on the street took away my toy - do I beat him up or not? So we watch Disney cartoons and read folklore stories in which there are "good" characters - those taking care of the disadvantaged - and "evil" - those disadvantaging others. Jafar is evil, while Aladdin is good. Scar is evil, while Simba is good. Caesar is evil, while Asterix is good. I am simplifying - there is a lot of depth to all of these characters - but the bottom line is plain: there is a clear line between the "good" and the "evil", and you have to choose which side you are on.

As you grow up, however, and observe the world, you realize that things are a lot more complex. In many cases even the most experienced thinkers have a hard time deciding how they should act, whether someone else's action was justified, et cetera. I would even argue that, if you keep working on yourself, you only get more confused as you do, because more and more complexities and nuances reveal themselves. Eventually you start realizing that no one has the answers, that it is all endless exploration, trial and error. The most conventionally "evil" actions always have reasons behind them, and the most conventionally "good" actions always have aspects of traits (such as selfishness) traditionally associated with the "evil".

I like to categorize actions loosely into "creative" and "destructive", rather than "good" and "evil". Creative actions are those that lead to creation of value or prevent destruction of value, for you and/or others. Destructive actions lead to destruction of value or prevent creation of value. Creative actions are taken by the players of positive sum games, and destructive actions by the players of negative sum games. Not everyone approves of all creation and disapproves of all destruction, but those who create are demonstrably more pleasant to interact with than those who destroy.

One's overall orientation also can be creative or destructive. Creative people think about expanding their horizons, learning new skills, chasing new experiences, creating cool technology and art. Destructive people think about extorting resources from others, controlling others, asserting dominance through violence and intimidation.

When you go to a major hedge fund and look at how people working there behave, you immediately see that you are in the creation heaven. People generate countless ideas, excitedly exchange them, relentlessly work on their skills and knowledge.
You see something very different when you go to a meeting of environmental activists. They all look angry and depressed, they seek ways to shoot other people's legs in order to preserve abstract "natural ecosystem". They do not think about increasing the well-being of humanity; in fact, they want to sacrifice a lot of humanity in order to let the ecosystem revert to its pre-human state, seeing the ecosystem as more important than their own lives.

Are hedge fund traders "good" and environmental activists "evil"? I do not see how one can make this statement. Yet to me it is quite clear that the former move the world forward, while the latter do everything they can to prevent that movement, and to me there is no sadder state of being than focusing on making other people's lives more difficult.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

If you believe God does not exist, then that would be a true statement.  So we agree that atheism is a system without any objective morals.  Thank you for your support and acknowledgement of what I've been saying.

That means you have no objective source of morality either, as god doesn't exist as far as we know. You know that's the point, right?

I would argue that there are lots of good reasons to believe that there is a God.  1)  The universe had a beginning.  Anything that begins to exist must have a cause to exist outside of itself - that suggest that there is a God.  2)  The fine-tuning of the universe is more likely associated it with an intelligence than random chance.  3)  The complexity of even the simplest lifeform.  Science can not reproduce a process that brings life from non-life.  When you look at the DNA strand of even a single celled organism, it is way too complex to have arisen by chaos or accident.  And a hundred years of failed tries by scientists, strongly suggest that it is the product of intelligence.  4)  Miracles - there is lots of evidence of miracles that defy scientific explanations - the crippled suddenly walking, the blind seeing, those with amputated limbs - suddenly having them back and fully functional, the dead coming back to life.  One would have to ignore all the eye witness accounts, the medical records, and medical testimony to deny miracles.  And as I may have mentioned once or twice, I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Reasons aren't evidence in of themselves. Asserting everything has a beginning but god is faith, not evidence. Fairytales aren't evidence. In nature there are calm regions and chaotic regions, then over time they may reverse or align; and produce unimaginable phenomenon all of which reveals natural sources on a consistent bases as discoveries are made. Church traditions and stories aren't evidence. Evidence is verifiable, understand? It doesn't take faith to be atheist, just reason.

The word translated as 'evil', means calamity or chaos in the original.  Evil is not a tangible thing.  It is the deprivation of good.  In much the same way darkness is not a tangible thing, but the absence of light.  Evil can only be known if some true good source exists.  Therefore, evil is an evidence of God's existence  It would be wrong to blame God for the choices we ourselves make.  God has given us free will, we made our choices not God.  As the Bible says 

 For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

And yet there it is in the KJV. Is 'calamity' supposed to mean not evil in some weird way? Good could only exist if some true form of evil exist. See the folly of your logic? You have never debunked the fact freewill can not exist under the heel of predestination. "God knows" doesn't change the fact your fairy book says we're predestined to make the choices we do by its foreknowledge. Nope, "evil" was correct but it didn't fit the "Jesus loves you and forgives you" grace preaching that emerged after the fire and brimstone preaching of the 50's. That's the reason for the change. If your god presence does cause a default of evil if you oppose it, then it is still the cause yet it delights in the punishment of helpless victims of its narcissism. How do you not see that paradox?

It seems obvious that you want to cite the Bible to blame God for the actions of others, but you want to ignore Bible verses which speak directly to the issue that don't share your viewpoint.  You want to blame God for giving you the power to defy Him and do your own thing.  Just because God knows the mistakes we will make, does not mean, He made those mistakes.  Instead, God allows you free will, and even provides a means of forgiveness for the actions we have taken.  That doesn't seem evil at all, but a merciful being who offers forgiveness to beings who do evil and then blame Him for our actions.

I cite the bible to point out the inconsistencies of your arguments, nothing more. What I disagree with most and abhor the most is your god is more concerned with being worshipped than it is with justice, or good and evil. And there is the fact the Genesis narrative is erroneous compared to the facts discovered through science. 

Barnardot

@Bogan ;Oh shiit, I must be wrong, then?

Well you dont have to be wrong if you dont want to be. And thats the point that me and every body else here is trying to get a cross to you. The reason your all ways wrong is because you think wrong things and retain wrong things in the wrong side of your head and thats how all the garbage keeps coming out. You only use the good side of your head for instant gratification and nothing else.

Bogan

@just_sayin ;   A point that I make frequently when the subject of evil comes up is that the only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver.  

I am an atheist and I am kind to animals.     Where does you "lawgiver" tell people to be kind to animals?     Human beings themselves can work out for themselves what is right and wrong behavior by consensus.  

Barnardot

@Bogan ;I am an atheist and I am kind to animals.

Yet your not kind to blacks and homos. May be your better off being an animal because you certainly struggle being a human being.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@KhasimAmedu ;  Evil is anything that runs contrary to our Creator's will.

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;   A point that I make frequently when the subject of evil comes up is that the only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver.  

I am an atheist and I am kind to animals.     Where does you "lawgiver" tell people to be kind to animals?     Human beings themselves can work out for themselves what is right and wrong behavior by consensus.  

Bogie:
Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel. - Proverbs 12:10

You shall not see your brother's donkey or his ox fallen down by the way and ignore them. You shall help him to lift them up again. - Deuteronomy 22:4

If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. - Deuteronomy 23:4-5

jack

KhasimAmedu said:

What is evil, and what are your claims based on?

Hello K:

The word "evil" has religious connotations that have no meaning amongst ordinary folk.  Oh, there are bad people for sure, but you give them a pass by blaming some religious incarnation instead of the people who're exhibiting bad behavior.  

It's simply people behaving badly, who don't take responsibility for it cause the devil made 'em do it... 

excon

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;   A point that I make frequently when the subject of evil comes up is that the only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver.  

I am an atheist and I am kind to animals.     Where does you "lawgiver" tell people to be kind to animals?     Human beings themselves can work out for themselves what is right and wrong behavior by consensus.  

Bogie:
Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel. - Proverbs 12:10

You shall not see your brother's donkey or his ox fallen down by the way and ignore them. You shall help him to lift them up again. - Deuteronomy 22:4

If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. - Deuteronomy 23:4-5

Human words expressing human consensus.

Bogan

@just_sayin

Okay, just sayin, you got me there.  

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin

Okay, just sayin, you got me there.  

Glad you are feeling better.  

Factfinder

@Bogan

You do know that was words written in a book by humans, right Bogan?

Joeseph

There is no such thing as evil.

Barnardot

@Joeseph ;There is no such thing as evil.

Yes that’s right sure there is no such thing as evil and there’s no such thing as water and there’s no such thing as air. It takes so much for sight and great intellectual depth to come to such an intelligent conclusion. Wow have you actually been talking your Ritalin lately instead of hiding it behind your tongue until the carer leaves the room. There is definitely an improvement showing and soon they might try taking off your straight jacket for a few minutes each day to see how it goes.

Joeseph

@Barnardot ;

But thats all you say to anyone.

So your question today is what is evil?

Watch barny run or fire of insults same ole Barmy

Barnardot

@Joeseph ;But thats all you say to anyone.

That’s not true at all . I only say it to nits.

Joeseph

@Barnardot

Oh but it is true. Like I predicted you fired of insults and ran from answering the question .......another win for me 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Satan is evil - the father of same and those who do not belong to Jesus by faith are evil.