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Was Jesus's failure to condemn slavery a deficiency in his moral character?

Debate Information

Jesus is often touted as being a perfect, flawless, and moral being without sin. However, at no point in any of the gospels does he explicitly condemn slavery. Should this bring his moral character into question?

Unless you believe that slavery is morally good, it is hard to argue that abolishing it should be done absolutely such that it is restricted everywhere. Since Jesus claimed to be the son of god, it would have taken no more than a casual statement to have declared slavery wrong, and this would have alleviated hundreds of years of suffering in the form of harsh ownership of men and women in bondage. Slavery was not actively fought against until after the enlightenment produced egalitarian and humanist values.

Was Jesus failing to condemn slavery a sign that he was in fact, not perfectly moral? Or is there some other explanation or excuse for this blatant lack of commitment to justice?
bjinthirty
At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
Through a long process of evolution this life 
developed into the human race.
Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -   edited April 26
    Slavery was a global normative, that existed in every space in every corner of the world, and from a 21st century standpoint such a practice is totally unacceptable. The enslavement of a human being is in violation of the basic rights, which has prevailed more recently then in the past. I'm no historian, but I believe slavery was so normal that there would be no reason for them to condemn it. Here's what I mean, if prophets such as Jesus and Muhammad (I can't really speak for Jesus as I don't know what his view on slavery was) condemned bad treatment against slaves and demanded that they be treated well like any other person, then I believe people took that as a sufficient reason to not go against this practice. Morality has changed and evolved over the years, the basic right of freedom was not necessarily a right back then. Trying to use a subjective and relative set of standards as an objective or universal truth is a mistake. I would also like to mention that many believe that slavery was necessary evil. I disagree with this claim but I don't ignore the results that came out of this vile practice. It's quite simple, societies would not be where we are today if slavery did not exist. I'm not saying that society would never reach a point of high success and technology but it would have required much more effort. For example, The Pyramids were built by slaves, but when we ponder about the Pyramids we don't really think of how bad the conditions were for slaves. We just marvel at this great wonder, and are thankful that it exists. So I don't support the idea that slavery was a necessary evil but I don't also ignore the impact it has had on this world.


    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    I would also like to mention that Jesus said in the Bible, that his will is the Will of the Father meaning God the Creator. This means then that God did not will to condemn slavery. From here arises the Problem of Evil. Is God evil, and he isn't why does he allow evil? I'm willing to address this but I don't want to get off topic.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 26

    If there was a famine, a person and his whole family could sell themselves to someone and stay together.  They would have a job, and a place to sleep, a place to live.  If someone couldn't pay their debt, they could work it off as a slave.  If a person was poor, they could sell themselves as a slave.  There was good to slavery.  Of course God is against violet people hurting anyone for no reason.  In addition, a person could not kidnap a man and make him a slave. So with that, a person should stop being so judgmental about God.  The Africans were kidnapped and made to be slaves, and some Africans were at war with other Africans and the victor took people captive and sold them to slavery.



    Happy_KillbotTreeManDeePlaffelvohfenAlofRI
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;


    That's not how the Romans rolled, they did slavery for life after taking prisoners from conquered lands. They did not discriminate who they enslaved based on race, nor gender, nor creed, or for any reason at all really.

    You might try and lessen the impact of slavery by citing a "nice" *but still toughly immoral) method supposedly used by the Hebrews, but that would not vindicate Jesus given the other atrocities committed by the Roman empire which had conquered and governed Judea in Jesus's time. Jesus failed to outlaw this version of slavery as well as other methods, and that still leaves a major flaw in his moral character.
    TreeManPlaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;


    That's not how the Romans rolled, they did slavery for life after taking prisoners from conquered lands. They did not discriminate who they enslaved based on race, nor gender, nor creed, or for any reason at all really.

    You might try and lessen the impact of slavery by citing a "nice" *but still toughly immoral) method supposedly used by the Hebrews, but that would not vindicate Jesus given the other atrocities committed by the Roman empire which had conquered and governed Judea in Jesus's time. Jesus failed to outlaw this version of slavery as well as other methods, and that still leaves a major flaw in his moral character.
    Jesus failed nothing. 
    TreeManDeeAlofRI
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    So, do you think that slavery is morally unacceptable?

    If so, then why didn't Jesus condemn it?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  

    God’s Prophets in the Old Testament were referred to as servants. God spoke of Abraham as His servant (Genesis 26:24; Numbers 12:7). Joshua is called the servant of the Lord (Joshua 24:29), as are David (2 Samuel 7:5) and Isaiah (Isaiah 20:3). Even the Messiah is called God’s Servant (Isaiah 53:11). In all of these instances, the term servant is of humble nobility. Being God’s servant is an honorable position.

     

    The word bondservant is when a slave loves the master and wants to stay with him forever.  Throughout the New Testament, the word bondservant, slave, or servant is applied to someone devoted to Jesus. Paul, Timothy, James, Peter, and Jude all describe themselves as “bondservants of Christ” (Romans 1:1; Philippians 1:1; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:1; Jude 1:1, NKJV).

     

    Believers today should still consider themselves bondservants or slaves of Christ (1 Corinthians 7:22; Ephesians 6:6; 2 Timothy 2:24). He is our Lord and obeying him is everything. As bondservants, we renounce other masters (Matthew 6:24) and give ourselves totally to Him (Matthew 16:24).

     

    Being a bondservant of Christ is not in any way drudgery. His “burden is light” (Matthew 11:30).  We have this promise: “Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life” (Romans 6:22).

    See also 1 Peter 2:16…live as God’s slaves; and 1 Corinthians 7:22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.


    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TreeManTreeMan 190 Pts   -  
    You cannot gain money as a slave. Therefore, why would poor people sell themselves as slaves? Once you sell yourself, your master will just take all your belongings gins(including the money he gave u) @TrueLove
    Happy_Killbot
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -   edited April 27
    @Happy_Killbot
    Was Jesus failing to condemn slavery a sign that he was in fact, not perfectly moral?

    Slavery in those times was not considered immoral, nor were many of the ideals that we uphold in these modern times.

    Which is why I will continue to condemn religion in that it habitually uses old ideals (e.g. vilification of minority groups) to form their anti-social, prejudiced principals.

    If Abrahamic religions wish to get accepted into the modern world, they should burn every Bible and Quran and choose a more modern-day son of God religious leader to worship. For example, Jim Jones who died only 43 years ago, rather than 1991 years ago. Have you read his words? I think you will find them more relevant for these times.

    TreeManHappy_Killbot
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -   edited April 27
    @KhasimAmedu



     Here's what I mean, if prophets such as Jesus and Muhammad (I can't really speak for Jesus as I don't know what his view on slavery was) condemned bad treatment against slaves and demanded that they be treated well like any other person, then I believe people took that as a sufficient reason to not go against this practice. 

    Jesus totally approved of slavery as did the New Testament .....


    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



    Morality has changed and evolved over the years, the basic right of freedom was not necessarily a right back then. Trying to use a subjective and relative set of standards as an objective or universal truth is a mistake. 


    Yes I agree morality is an ever evolving concept and is influenced by our societies and will continue to change and evolve but yet we are talking about not just mere men and their moral choices but the morality of Jesus who we are told spoke the truth , lived the truth and the truth is eternal , Jesus , Christians claim was the perfect man yet approved of slavery? 

    Also the Christian god the so called source of all morality approved like Jesus of the buying and selling of people as property and the beating of them , this does not fit with the character of a perfect man Jesus or a loving god no matter what way it’s presented, 
    some of the verses in the Bible regarding slavery are the vile primitive practice of savages Christians trying to justify such doesn’t fit with the idea of a “loving “ god or a perfect man Jesus  




    KhasimAmedu
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -   edited April 27
    @KhasimAmedu

     Is God evil, and he isn't why does he allow evil? I'm willing to address this but I don't want to get off topic.


    Good debate topic why not post it up?  I see you have great 
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    You made some good points, but I think saying Jesus' failure to condemn slavery is a deficiency in his moral character is jumping over a gap that needs to be filled. I believe that Jesus was more neutral neither condemning or encouraging it, just as many prophets were.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -   edited April 27
    @TrueLove ;

    None of what you wrote seems to justify Jesus's passivity, unless it happens to be that you want to be a slave.

    Is this the case?
    We_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -   edited April 27
    @KhasimAmedu

    You made some good points, but I think saying Jesus' failure to condemn slavery is a deficiency in his moral character is jumping over a gap that needs to be filled.

    What is the gap you speak of?

    Jesus was according to believers a “perfect man “ , slavery is the owning of people as property which Jesus fully approved of how is this not a moral deficiency in his character?

     I believe that Jesus was more neutral neither condemning or encouraging it, just as many prophets were.

    He certainly was not neutral according to the verses as quoted from the New Testament how do you assume that what he said on slavery is a neutral position?

    Also when we talk of Jesus and indeed Muhammad we are apparently talking about men who never sinned or acted immorally how is approving the owning and beating of slaves in any way moral?


  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    None of what you wrote seems to justify Jesus's passivity, unless it happens to be that you want to be a slave.

    Is this the case?
    Some people sold themselves as slaves because there was a famine, or for debt reasons.  Jesus says to loan without expecting it back.  
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    Some people sold themselves as slaves because there was a famine, or for debt reasons.  Jesus says to loan without expecting it back.  
    Refusing to answer the question does nothing to refute the opposite.

    That's not how the Romans rolled, again. The Romans enslaved people by conquest, it wasn't a debt related endeavor, it was deliberate by force, for the purpose of enriching the lives of the conquerors. Rape, brutality, torture, and lifetime intergenerational labor were the norm.

    You are simply appealing to something that isn't the issue here.

    How do you explain Jesus's failure to condemn Roman slavery, which he would have known about being as Judea was under Roman occupation?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    Some people sold themselves as slaves because there was a famine, or for debt reasons.  Jesus says to loan without expecting it back.  
    Refusing to answer the question does nothing to refute the opposite.

    That's not how the Romans rolled, again. The Romans enslaved people by conquest, it wasn't a debt related endeavor, it was deliberate by force, for the purpose of enriching the lives of the conquerors. Rape, brutality, torture, and lifetime intergenerational labor were the norm.

    You are simply appealing to something that isn't the issue here.

    How do you explain Jesus's failure to condemn Roman slavery, which he would have known about being as Judea was under Roman occupation?
    The whole world is condemned if they don't go through Jesus.
    Not every single thing that Jesus said is written down.  We have in the Bible everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
     
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotAlofRI
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    The whole world is condemned if they don't go through Jesus.
    Not every single thing that Jesus said is written down.  We have in the Bible everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
    So you think that slavery is acceptable then? Is that it? Why should someone not make you a slave?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 56 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said. "We have in the Bible everything we need to guide us to eternal life."  

    Well, I sincerely hope you don't use the bible's instructions on the buying and keeping of slaves as a guide to anything never mind eternal life.
    Slavery is an abhorrent practice and the bible condones it. It is strange that the bible lays down ridiculous rules about not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, not to boils a goat in its mother's milk, or to plow a field with an ox and a donkey on the same yoke, yet it can't say you are not to enslave someone and say they are your property. It says you can beat the slave, take his children from him as an inheritance, When the slave is set free he can't take his wife and children with him if he acquired them during his enslavement. The only way he could keep his family together would be to remain a slave for the rest of his life.
    Jesus never condemned slavery, in fact, he said that slaves should obey their masters, even the bad ones.
    It is obvious from the way you see slavery in the bible that you are reading those passages using your bible glasses. You should try using a pair of thinking glasses and maybe you might see just how disgusting those passages are,
    Happy_KillbotLiamThePerson
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    The whole world is condemned if they don't go through Jesus.
    Not every single thing that Jesus said is written down.  We have in the Bible everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
    So you think that slavery is acceptable then? Is that it? Why should someone not make you a slave?
    Slavery had its need, and no longer does.  Slavery also had times where it was wrong and abusive.  How would anyone ever get that Jesus is for abusive slavery?  
    Slavery isn't legal in my country.  If I was poor, or in debt, or if there was a famine, I would think I would be glad if a rich person took me as a slave.  If it was during wartime, and I was chosen to be a slave instead of killed, I think it would be the better choice.

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    Slavery had its need, and no longer does.
    So are you saying that in the past slavery was acceptable? doesn't that violate any notion of objective morality?
    Slavery also had times where it was wrong and abusive.
    Was there ever not a time when it was wrong and abusive?
    How would anyone ever get that Jesus is for abusive slavery?  
    He did not condemn it, and some interpretations, condones it.
    Slavery isn't legal in my country.  If I was poor, or in debt, or if there was a famine, I would think I would be glad if a rich person took me as a slave.
    That's not how Roman slavery worked, you didn't get a choice to sell yourself, they just came and took you away.

    You keep coming back to this Hebrew "nice" slavery (which is still morally appalling) but I think you miss the wider context here. 
    If it was during wartime, and I was chosen to be a slave instead of killed, I think it would be the better choice.
    But does that make it morally acceptable, or simply the lesser of two evils?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said. "We have in the Bible everything we need to guide us to eternal life."  

    Well, I sincerely hope you don't use the bible's instructions on the buying and keeping of slaves as a guide to anything never mind eternal life.

    Christians go by the New Testament, but the Old Testament is still useful.
    Slavery isn't legal in my country.  

    Slavery is an abhorrent practice and the bible condones it. It is strange that the bible lays down ridiculous rules about not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, not to boils a goat in its mother's milk, or to plow a field with an ox and a donkey on the same yoke, yet it can't say you are not to enslave someone and say they are your property.

    You don't know the wisdom in not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, and not boiling a goat in its mother's milk, and plowing a field with an ox and donkey on the same yoke?  
    One fabric would shrink and pull from the stitching of another fabric that didn't shrink.  Boiling a goat in its mothers milk shows perversion towards the care of your food.  Putting a donkey and ox on the same yoke would be wrong because an ox is stronger than the donkey and would force the donkey to hurt itself.


     It says you can beat the slave, take his children from him as an inheritance, When the slave is set free he can't take his wife and children with him if he acquired them during his enslavement. The only way he could keep his family together would be to remain a slave for the rest of his life.
    He could stay if he loved his master.  
    If a master has been paying for his wife and children for years, giving them clothes, a place to live, etc, then why shouldn't he have the right to them?

    Jesus never condemned slavery, in fact, he said that slaves should obey their masters, even the bad ones.

    You are deliberately leaving out where the Bible says for masters to treat their slaves right.

    It is obvious from the way you see slavery in the bible that you are reading those passages using your bible glasses. You should try using a pair of thinking glasses and maybe you might see just how disgusting those passages are,

    You don't even know why not to put a donkey and ox on the same yoke, and  you want to judge me.  

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 28
    @TrueLove ;
    Slavery had its need, and no longer does.
    So are you saying that in the past slavery was acceptable? doesn't that violate any notion of objective morality?
    Slavery also had times where it was wrong and abusive.
    Was there ever not a time when it was wrong and abusive?
    How would anyone ever get that Jesus is for abusive slavery?  
    He did not condemn it, and some interpretations, condones it.
    Slavery isn't legal in my country.  If I was poor, or in debt, or if there was a famine, I would think I would be glad if a rich person took me as a slave.
    That's not how Roman slavery worked, you didn't get a choice to sell yourself, they just came and took you away.

    You keep coming back to this Hebrew "nice" slavery (which is still morally appalling) but I think you miss the wider context here. 
    If it was during wartime, and I was chosen to be a slave instead of killed, I think it would be the better choice.
    But does that make it morally acceptable, or simply the lesser of two evils?
    You keep bringing up the Romans slavery tactics.  
    God speaks against violent people in the Old Testament times.
    There was need for slavery in the past.  
    Are you rich enough to take in slaves and save them from famine or a debt?  What would you have them do back then, let people live with you for free and do nothing?
    Jesus said for the masters to treat the slaves right.

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    One fabric would shrink and pull from the stitching of another fabric that didn't shrink
    Look on the tags of all the cloths you are currently wearing. I can almost guarantee that something will be mixed fiber.

    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 28
    @TrueLove ;
    One fabric would shrink and pull from the stitching of another fabric that didn't shrink
    Look on the tags of all the cloths you are currently wearing. I can almost guarantee that something will be mixed fiber.

    So you think the times make no difference?  Some of the fabric in some of my clothes didn't even exist a hundred years ago.
    Happy_Killbot
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    You keep bringing up the Romans slavery tactics.  
    Yes, because that was the relevant type of slavery in Jesus's day, and therefore the type he would have discussed.
    God speaks against violent people in the Old Testament times.
    But why didn't Jesus speak against slavery in his time?
    There was need for slavery in the past.  
    So was it morally acceptable then? If you don't think it's morally acceptable now, then doesn't that reject objective morals?
    Are you rich enough to take in slaves and save them from famine or a debt?  What would you have them do back then, let people live with you for free and do nothing?
    Depending on the cost, I likely have enough money to purchase slaves, but you don't do that to "save them" you do so to profit. You seem to be totally out of your depth and disconnected from the realities of slavery during the iron age.
    Jesus said for the masters to treat the slaves right.
    The only right treatment for slaves is to let them go free, anything else even "indentured bondage" is immoral.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  

    Yes, because that was the relevant type of slavery in Jesus's day, and therefore the type he would have discussed.

    I'm not going to go by what the Roman government did.

    But why didn't Jesus speak against slavery in his time?

    Slavery had its benefits for masters and for slaves.
    Not everything Jesus said was written down.

    So was it morally acceptable then? If you don't think it's morally acceptable now, then doesn't that reject objective morals?

    No not at all.  They didn't have bankruptcy laws, welfare, housing, etc.  

    Depending on the cost, I likely have enough money to purchase slaves, but you don't do that to "save them" you do so to profit. You seem to be totally out of your depth and disconnected from the realities of slavery during the iron age.

    We are talking about the Bible.  In the Bible, there are people who were in debt and sold themselves as slaves; in addition, there were people escaping famine and went to other places to be taken in as a slave so they didn't starve to death and so they had a place to live, a place to sleep, etc.

    The only right treatment for slaves is to let them go free, anything else even "indentured bondage" is immoral.

    Well that would be nice if there were people rich enough to feed, clothe, and take care of people who didn't do anything but sleep and drink, or whatever.  

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    I'm not going to go by what the Roman government did.
    Is that because it is inconvenient for you and your position?
    Slavery had its benefits for masters and for slaves.
    Name 1.
    Not everything Jesus said was written down.
    So, if there are some things that Jesus said that are not recorded in the bible, then how is it reliable?
    No not at all.  They didn't have bankruptcy laws, welfare, housing, etc.  
    So, if it wasn't morally acceptable at any point in time, then why didn't Jesus condemn it as wrong?
    We are talking about the Bible.  In the Bible, there are people who were in debt and sold themselves as slaves; in addition, there were people escaping famine and went to other places to be taken in as a slave so they didn't starve to death and so they had a place to live, a place to sleep, etc.
    That's not the slavery of the Romans, which Jesus would have known about. See, this doesn't matter because even if you claim this type of slavery is morally right (I disagree) Jesus still failed to condemn other types.
    Well that would be nice if there were people rich enough to feed, clothe, and take care of people who didn't do anything but sleep and drink, or whatever.  
    You understand that slavery is back breaking labor, constant rape, and torture? It is not simply giving people food and water, those things are not required to be provided for slaves.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    I'm not going to go by what the Roman government did.
    Is that because it is inconvenient for you and your position?
    Slavery had its benefits for masters and for slaves.
    Name 1.
    Not everything Jesus said was written down.
    So, if there are some things that Jesus said that are not recorded in the bible, then how is it reliable?
    No not at all.  They didn't have bankruptcy laws, welfare, housing, etc.  
    So, if it wasn't morally acceptable at any point in time, then why didn't Jesus condemn it as wrong?
    We are talking about the Bible.  In the Bible, there are people who were in debt and sold themselves as slaves; in addition, there were people escaping famine and went to other places to be taken in as a slave so they didn't starve to death and so they had a place to live, a place to sleep, etc.
    That's not the slavery of the Romans, which Jesus would have known about. See, this doesn't matter because even if you claim this type of slavery is morally right (I disagree) Jesus still failed to condemn other types.
    Well that would be nice if there were people rich enough to feed, clothe, and take care of people who didn't do anything but sleep and drink, or whatever.  
    You understand that slavery is back breaking labor, constant rape, and torture? It is not simply giving people food and water, those things are not required to be provided for slaves.
    You are lying about what slavery is.  
    You keep repeating your questions even after you have been given the answers.  The people wanting to escape famine, or pay off a debt would sell themselves to rich people and be taken care of.  That is a benefit.

    Happy_Killbot
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    Then Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” The Lord replied, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his household servants, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds at work when he returns. I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave should say to himself, ‘My master is delayed in returning,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat, drink, and get drunk, then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unfaithful. That servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or do what his master asked will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know his master’s will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    What about the racial slavery of the US south? Jesus didn't condemn that either, so unless you think that this slavery is morally acceptable, then their is a flaw in Jesus's moral character.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    What about the racial slavery of the US south? Jesus didn't condemn that either, so unless you think that this slavery is morally acceptable, then their is a flaw in Jesus's moral character.
    The Bible says you can't kidnap a man.  Some of the Africans were captured/kidnapped, and some were sold by Africans from other states.

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    The Bible says you can't kidnap a man.  Some of the Africans were captured/kidnapped, and some were sold by Africans from other states.
    cite verse.

    Also, answer the question for once.

    Jesus didn't condemn this type of slavery, so how can you say he is a morally good person?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    The Bible says you can't kidnap a man.  Some of the Africans were captured/kidnapped, and some were sold by Africans from other states.
    cite verse.

    Also, answer the question for once.

    Jesus didn't condemn this type of slavery, so how can you say he is a morally good person?  
    What kind of slavery are you talking about?  
    I talked about Jesus saying not to abuse slaves, not maiming and not killing them.   I spoke about Jesus saying to treat them right.    I mentioned people who sold themselves as slaves because of famine, or debt, and people who were made slaves instead of killed in war time.
    I told you too that you can't kidnap a man.
    Quit saying I don't answer.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    What kind of slavery are you talking about?  
    Wow, follow the context much?

    The slavery of the US South which Jesus failed to condemn.
    I talked about Jesus saying not to abuse slaves, not maiming and not killing them.   I spoke about Jesus saying to treat them right.    I mentioned people who sold themselves as slaves because of famine, or debt, and people who were made slaves instead of killed in war time.
    Cite verse.
    I told you too that you can't kidnap a man.
    Quit saying I don't answer.
    You still haven't answered!

    The question is: Jesus didn't condemn slavery, so how can you say he is a morally good person if slavery is not morally justified?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 56 Pts   -  
    The only reason I mentioned those silly bible instructions telling people what not to do was to demonstrate that the bible can tell people not to do inane things, but can't tell people not to do slavery.

    You said that a slave could remain a slave if he loved his master. This would mean a married slave with children could keep his family together. But whether or not the slave loved his master he could not leave with his family if he had married at any time during his enslavement. He either left alone, meaning his wife and children then belonged to the slave master, or he remained a slave and kept his family together.
    The bible might say to treat slaves well, but perhaps you haven't noticed it doesn't say not to do slavery.
    Luke 24:7 also says that if a slave does not do the will of his master, the slave is to be severely beaten. There is even a get-out clause for a slave master who beats a slave and as a result of that beating, the slave dies. As long as a couple of days pass before the slave dies of his injuries no action is to be taken against the slave master because as the bible states, the slave is his property.
    Getting back to the slave who could go free but would have to leave his wife and children as possessions of the slave master is where you showed your true colours.
    TrueLove said, "If a master has been paying for his wife and children for years, giving them clothes, a place to live, etc, then why shouldn't he have the right to them?"

    Do you realize that you just stated that someone has the right to consider other human beings to be their property?
    Considering another human being to be your property is exactly what slavery is all about, and you just said that you don't see why that shouldn't be the case!@TrueLove
  • mickygmickyg 340 Pts   -  
    failure of a god to condemn slavery is a proof of his nonexistence    @Happy_Killbot
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @mickyg ;
    failure of a god to condemn slavery is a proof of his nonexistence 
    I don't know if that follows, it could just be an evil or amoral god who thinks that slavery is cool.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 30
    JoeKerr said:
    The only reason I mentioned those silly bible instructions telling people what not to do was to demonstrate that the bible can tell people not to do inane things, but can't tell people not to do slavery.

    You said that a slave could remain a slave if he loved his master. This would mean a married slave with children could keep his family together. But whether or not the slave loved his master he could not leave with his family if he had married at any time during his enslavement. He either left alone, meaning his wife and children then belonged to the slave master, or he remained a slave and kept his family together.
    The bible might say to treat slaves well, but perhaps you haven't noticed it doesn't say not to do slavery.
    Luke 24:7 also says that if a slave does not do the will of his master, the slave is to be severely beaten. There is even a get-out clause for a slave master who beats a slave and as a result of that beating, the slave dies. As long as a couple of days pass before the slave dies of his injuries no action is to be taken against the slave master because as the bible states, the slave is his property.
    Getting back to the slave who could go free but would have to leave his wife and children as possessions of the slave master is where you showed your true colours.
    TrueLove said, "If a master has been paying for his wife and children for years, giving them clothes, a place to live, etc, then why shouldn't he have the right to them?"

    Do you realize that you just stated that someone has the right to consider other human beings to be their property?
    Considering another human being to be your property is exactly what slavery is all about, and you just said that you don't see why that shouldn't be the case!@TrueLove
    Where does it say that the master gets out of being punished for killing the slave if the slave dies a few days later after the beating? 

    Times were different and slavery was needed for those in dept and for the poor.  You think they had welfare back then?  Why don't you answer that?
    People offered themselves as obedient slaves.

    Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, 

    Even if a man or woman was not married and wanted to stay with their master for life, they could.

    Deuteronomy 15

    12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.

    13 And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:

    14 Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the Lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.

    15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the Lord thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.

    16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;

    17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

    18 It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.


    These scriptures explain that if a man came with a wife, then they leave together.  

    Exodus 21

    1“These are the ordinances that you are to set before them:

    2If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free without paying anything. 3If he arrived alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrived with a wife, she is to leave with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

    5But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children; I do not want to go free,’ 6then his master is to bring him before the judges.  And he shall take him to the door or doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he shall serve his master for life.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 30

    Wow, follow the context much?

    You are the one not following.  I have covered every kind of slavery more than once.


    Cite verse.
    I told you too that you can't kidnap a man.
    Quit saying I don't answer.
    Exodus 21:16 And he that stealth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he surely be put to death.

    1Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 

     ...for menstealers,
    for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;



    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    In the US South, the slave holders bought their slaves from companies which purchased them from African kingdoms, which typically captured their slaves in war. Thus, even if the actually kidnapping is wrong, this says nothing about actually holding slaves.

    So, is holding slaves morally wrong?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;

    In the US South, the slave holders bought their slaves from companies which purchased them from African kingdoms, which typically captured their slaves in war. Thus, even if the actually kidnapping is wrong, this says nothing about actually holding slaves.

    So, is holding slaves morally wrong?
    I explained it to you many times that people offered themselves as slaves; and, God said a person couldn't be kidnapped and be sold as a slave.

    Exodus 21:16 And he that stealth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he surely be put to death.

    1Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 

     ...for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    Happy_Killbot
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 56 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said, "Where does it say that the master gets out of being punished for killing the slave if the slave dies a few days later after the beating?"
    Exodus 21:20-21 is where. Look it up.
    You make biblical slavery to be like some kind of social welfare programme for the needy. Well, it ain't.

    Only Hebrew slaves could go free at the end of their enslavement. Not so non-Hebrew slaves. Non-Hebrews could be bought and sold at will and passed on as an inheritance.
    If a Hebrew man sold his daughter she would be a slave for life.
    A Hebrew man could go free with his family at the end of his enslavement, but only if he came into slavery with a family.
    If he acquired a family during his enslavement his wife and children would remain slaves and he could only keep the family together by not taking his freedom and remain a slave for life. Either way, stay or leave, his wife and children would be slaves for life, the property of the slave master.
    The bible also states that a slave that does not do his masters will shall be severely beaten.
    I could give you the chapters and verses for the above instructions but it might do you some good to find them for yourself. After all, you say you do love the word of god so it shouldn't be too much of a chore for you.

    The bottom line is that neither the bible nor Jesus condemned slavery. The bible states quite clearly that slaves were considered to be someone's property which is truly repugnant.
    Unfortunately, going by what you said in an earlier post, you are ok with that!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said, "Where does it say that the master gets out of being punished for killing the slave if the slave dies a few days later after the beating?"
    Exodus 21:20-21 is where. Look it up.

    It doesn't say what you claim it does no such thing.

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  

    You make biblical slavery to be like some kind of social welfare programme for the needy. Well, it ain't.

    It was a way of living for many who choose it.
    What it "ain't" is what you make it out to always be.


    If a Hebrew man sold his daughter she would be a slave for life.

    If the master designated her for himself, but he changed his mind about her, she could be set free; she cannot be sold.  
    You are more upset with the slave owner than the father who sold his daughter.

     Either way, stay or leave, his wife and children would be slaves for life, the property of the slave master.
    His family had a rich master, a place to live, a job for life.

    The bible also states that a slave that does not do his masters will shall be severely beaten.
    That was about the head slave BEATING THE OTHER SLAVES and getting drunk and not doing his work.

    I could give you the chapters and verses for the above instructions but it might do you some good to find them for yourself. After all, you say you do love the word of god so it shouldn't be too much of a chore for you.

    You must have your eyes closed, because a little glance at all my posts would show you that I have spoken of all the scriptures on slavery.

    The bottom line is that neither the bible nor Jesus condemned slavery. The bible states quite clearly that slaves were considered to be someone's property which is truly repugnant.
    Unfortunately, going by what you said in an earlier post, you are ok with that!

    Again, there was no welfare system in place.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 56 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said," It doesn't say what you claim it does no such thing."

    Oh, but yes it does.

    Exodus 21:20-21
    20 If a man strikes his male servant or his female servant with a rod so that he or she dies at his hand, then he shall surely be punished. 21 Nevertheless, if he survives for a day or two, then he shall not be punished, for it is his money.

    I can't wait to see how you twist those verses.


  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -   edited April 30
    JoeKerr said:
    TrueLove said," It doesn't say what you claim it does no such thing."

    Oh, but yes it does.

    Exodus 21:20-21
    20 If a man strikes his male servant or his female servant with a rod so that he or she dies at his hand, then he shall surely be punished. 21 Nevertheless, if he survives for a day or two, then he shall not be punished, for it is his money.

    I can't wait to see how you twist those verses.


    It doesn't say what you claim.  It says if he gets up, then the master shall not be punished.   If you get up, then you are not killed.  You said he can live for a couple of days then die after that time and not be held responsible.  What you said is not true.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    I explained it to you many times that people offered themselves as slaves; and, God said a person couldn't be kidnapped and be sold as a slave.
    That is not how slavery worked in the US south. The Africans who came to the US did not have a choice, they did not "sell themselves" they were brutally kidnapped, beaten, tortured, raped, and then sold to US plantation owners.

    https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/1532857.html

    Why don't you answer the question?

    Is holding slaves morally wrong?

    If so, then why didn't Jesus condemn it?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 178 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    I explained it to you many times that people offered themselves as slaves; and, God said a person couldn't be kidnapped and be sold as a slave.
    That is not how slavery worked in the US south. The Africans who came to the US did not have a choice, they did not "sell themselves" they were brutally kidnapped, beaten, tortured, raped, and then sold to US plantation owners.

    https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/1532857.html

    Why don't you answer the question?

    Is holding slaves morally wrong?

    If so, then why didn't Jesus condemn it?
    I already addressed the African slaves in America and explained how they were kidnapped/captured, and that God says that is not to be done.

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove ;
    I already addressed the African slaves in America and explained how they were kidnapped/captured, and that God says that is not to be done.
    So then why didn't Jesus condemn slavery?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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