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Let's talk about the Problem of Evil.

Debate Information

The Problem of Evil is arguably one of the biggest conflicts many people have with religion and God. I am currently reading a book by Ibn Qayyim that address Divine Wisdom and the Problem with Evil and although I'm not finished, I would like to mention a few points that Ibn Qayyim states that I felt would be worth sharing. I am interested in hearing your opinions and I hope we can have a respectful and inspiring discussion about this topic, God-Willing. 

Ibn Qayyim, states:

"Although the existence [of a particular good] may be better than its non-existence, its existence [in all situations] may result in forgoing (fawat) something that is more beloved to God. Likewise, although the non-existence of something evil may be preferable to its existence [in one aspect] it may be that its existence is a means or a cause that leads [indirectly] to something more beloved to Him.~Ibn Qayyim.

In short, Ibn Qayyim states that although an existence of a particular good may be preferred, it might result in the surrender of something [existence] that is even more beloved to God. Likewise he states, that although the non-existence of an evil is preferred, that very existence might indirectly cause the existence of something that is beloved to God. I believe that this the root definition of what necessary evil is, meaning an evil existence that leads to a existence beloved by God. Of course, such knowledge of what an existence can directly and indirectly lead to, is something only God knows. 

Ibn Qayyim, states:

"He asserts that one of the greatest reasons for the creation of both good and evil is to manifest God’s Names, Attributes and actions in a manner which is concordant with His wisdom: ‘If the effects of His Names and Attributes cannot become manifest, except by [creating] opposing [entities], then His wisdom deems it to be inevitable that He bring them into existence. Had they not been created, then His Attributes would not have become manifested; and this is implausible.

"God loves repentance and loves to manifest His Attributes of forgiveness and mercy, so that the believer may become humble rather than proud; and so he may recognize that it is only his deficient nature, ignorance and injustice which results in sin.

Ibn Qayyim states, here that evil did not exist, then the Names and Attributes of God could not be manifested, or "displayed". Ibn Qayyim here also claims that the only way for God to manifest his Attributes is to create opposing entities (good and evil) which would result in his Attributes being manifested. Therefore the creation of evil and good would be inevitable according to God's Divine Wisdom.

In the next passage, Ibn Qayyim also states that God loves to manifest his forgiveness and mercy (which are Attributes of God) in order that a believer is humbled through his mercy and is aware that his own deficient and ignorant nature will result in his own downfall unless he repents and seeks forgiveness. This isn't necessarily related to the topic but it's related to the first premise and I thought it was worth sharing. 

What are your thoughts on Ibn Qayyim's claims? Let me know if you have any questions. 





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  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    I think the problem of evil is perhaps the biggest theological issue for those who adhere to a monotheistic religion and specifically suppose god to be good, and especially omnibenevolent.

    If we supposed a god which was all good, then it would not make anything less than the best possible worlds. Since we can imagine a better world, (in Abrahamic religions heaven is one such example) then it stands to reason that our world is imperfect, even without a direct observation of evil.

    The most common approach apologists use when dealing with this problem is the introduction of a theodicy, such as those provided above in the OP. However, I would challenge anyone who thinks that such a theodicy might explain a good god to apply that same reasoning to an evil god and see if the logic holds.

    For example, the first passage from the Ibn Qayyim in the OP might presuppose an evil god, and although an existence of a particular evil may be preferred, it might result in the surrender of something [existence] that is even more beloved to God. Likewise, that although the non-existence of a good is preferred, that very existence might indirectly cause the existence of something that is beloved to God.

    So, this would be perfectly workable should god be evil rather than good.

    For the second and third passages, the logic is already directly applied to the necessity of evil, so changing that for an evil deity to necessarily produce some good might likewise be thought to be out of its wisdom. The same might be said for forgiveness in the case of an evil god.

    If someone is to suggest that the possibility for an evil god is absurd or impossible, then I might turn that around and claim the same for a benevolent god for exactly the same reasons.
    KhasimAmeduTreeMan
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    So, this would be perfectly workable should god be evil rather than good.

    You slightly mixed up the passage when you were restating it, the existence of a particular good is preferred and the existence of a particular evil is not preferred, but the main takeaway from the passage is the existence is a certain evil could indirectly cause or lead up to another separate existence that could be beloved by God. This is why Ibn Qayyim says when mentioning the problem of evil, people tend to ignore God's other attributes and in this case his Divine Wisdom is something that needs to be looked at rather than pushed away and focusing on his omnibenevolence alone.   


  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4919 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu ;

    You slightly mixed up the passage when you were restating it, the existence of a particular good is preferred and the existence of a particular evil is not preferred, but the main takeaway from the passage is the existence is a certain evil could indirectly cause or lead up to another separate existence that could be beloved by God. This is why Ibn Qayyim says when mentioning the problem of evil, people tend to ignore God's other attributes and in this case his Divine Wisdom is something that needs to be looked at rather than pushed away and focusing on his omnibenevolence alone.   

    Well, yes I did so deliberately. I flipped around good and evil to demonstrate that the reasoning might be used to justify an evil god instead of a good one.
    KhasimAmedu
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu
    In short, Ibn Qayyim states that although an existence of a particular good may be preferred, it might result in the surrender of something [existence] that is even more beloved to God. 

    Very fascinating philosophy, I must say.

    I have tended to look at evil as being very subjective....what is evil to some may be good to others. This I suppose is parallel principal to the concept that evil may arise from the goodness of something else.

    It is also my observation that what constitutes as being evil is normally pointed out by those who are evil. Evil begets evil.

    KhasimAmedu
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -   edited April 27
     I believe that this the root definition of what necessary evil is, meaning an evil existence that leads to a existence beloved by God. Of course, such knowledge of what an existence can directly and indirectly lead to, is something only God knows. 


     The first quote is basically an Argument From Mystery as in it brings up a question as in why their is evil in the first place which is a mystery and it gives a speculative subjective answer,  it appeals to a mystery as in its there for a reason only known to a god which gets us nowhere further down the road  


    You state .... ‘If the effects of His Names and Attributes cannot become manifest, except by [creating] opposing [entities], then His wisdom deems it to be inevitable that He bring them into existence. Had they not been created, then His Attributes would not have become manifested; and this is implausible.


    Why would this be the most effective way an all powerful entity could manifest its attributes? 



    "God loves repentance and loves to manifest His Attributes of forgiveness and mercy, so that the believer may become humble rather than proud; and so he may recognize that it is only his deficient nature, ignorance and injustice which results in sin.


    It seems the god or gods put forward are a bit like the man behind the screen in the wizard of Oz where one is meant to tremble in fear and reverence in his presence 


     Therefore the creation of evil and good would be inevitable according to God's Divine Wisdom



    What interests me more regarding the problem of evil is the fact I as a mere human cannot think of a crime that merits an eternity in Hell fire or any type of such eternal suffering yet a god or gods can and do ( apparently) , also if I can forgive a fellow human of a crime why does a god need to constantly punish why not forgive? 

    What are the purpose of natural evils from a believers perspective ?

    If I accept a god or gods exist one has to accept that an all knowing god allowed the Holocaust unfold , believers can make a case for god allowing such evils and I can get from their perspective the argument that god doesn’t interfere in evils carried out by his subjects but that leaves one question that I still haven’t had a believer  answer honestly and that is .......

    The Holocaust happened a god or god knew this would happen and watched as men women and children were forced into gas chambers and eliminated while he watched,  if a god is the source of all morality how can watching people be gassed to death without intervening be deemed morally acceptable when one has the power to intervene? 

    Basically was gods choice to watch the men , women and children being gassed to death a “moral choice” if so how?


    PlaffelvohfenKhasimAmedu
  • ImbsterImbster 149 Pts   -  
    If God allows evil then he is a bystander. A bystander does nothing to stop the evil. If God is so omnipotent, then he is capable of creating evil as I comprehend. I also comprehend he is capable of stopping evil but chooses not to, as we can see statistically around the world everyday. If I comprehend that God is capable of making evil but God actually doesn't then he is not omniscient nor omnipotent as he lacks the qualification to be all or infinitely powerful then I can then state, God has limited ability to combat evil and is therefore a bystander most times.

    People keep saying we're beyond comprehending God well then why even read the Bible??? There's so many verses where God explicitly explains his plans to the prophets or Moses plus WHY he orders those plans. These are literally golden clues that help anyone comprehend if God is capable of evil. Taking the foreskins of Philistines was definitely evil and an unnecessary punishment. Whoever justifies the removal of 200+ foreskins by combat chooses to see God only in a omnibenevolent perspective. To be omniscient, God can't avoid knowledge of evil, To be omnipotent, God has abilities of evil.

    If "human" replaced every time "God" was used in the Old Testament as a word, we'd be judging that human that human so hard for flooding the race and that he fails to use his supernatural abiltiies to DIRECTLY stop any rape.

    Also if you try to justify that God allows evil so that we can appreciate good that is sad. I don't need to read news about priests molesting children to know what is morally good. And how come he doesn't send down his Holy Spirit to change people's minds when they're about to commit genocide? Because they're already destined for hell?

    If a human gave up on someone cause they cannot be saved anymore, we would blame society for failing to educate that person but when it comes to God oh well, God is so omnipotent he is devoid of any blame.

    Also how come God doesn't know that punishment can backfire and reinforce bad behavior?

    Don't get me started with free will, he literally steps on free will anytime he feels like it in the Old Testament.

    I'm not afraid to blame God for anything evil going on because he unleashed it in the first place. There is no split that Satan is evil, God is not. God allowed Satan to play with Job's life, kill his family and servants, inflict disease, and because of that, I just know God is capable of doing it again to anyone who's pious.
    GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 201 Pts   -  
    Gnostic Christianity has no problem of evil.

    When I wear my naturalist hat, I see nature and humankind doing a lot more good than evil. Even to the point where experts are scratching their heads and saying we are too good.

    Given that evolution and our selfish gene force us to compete, we have no choice but to do evil. Competition creates a lose who would feel that evil has befallen him.

    Without that small bit of evil in evolution, we would go extinct.

    IOW, thank nature or god for creating evil.

    As scriptures say, Yahweh created evil for his pleasure and evolution is how to explain that weird idea.,

    Regards
    DL
    KhasimAmedu
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    The first quote is basically an Argument From Mystery as in it brings up a question as in why their is evil in the first place which is a mystery and it gives a speculative subjective answer,  it appeals to a mystery as in its there for a reason only known to a god which gets us nowhere further down the road.

    Ibn Qayyim does not go down this route, but rather he formulates a wisdom behind good and evil existences. In this case, the only mystery is knowing what existences could lead or indirectly cause another existence, but this knowledge is not necessarily the most relevant element of this argument. The most relevant thing is the possibility that an existence of a particular evil could indirectly lead to an existence that is beloved by God which is evident in the world. For example, polytheism, pagan and immoral practices were considered an evil that has been condemned by God in revelation. Yet out of these evils arised the prophets and scriptures which is an ultimate good from a religious standpoint. Slavery has led to the economic prosperity of many nations that were beloved by God and we could go on. 

    Why would this be the most effective way an all powerful entity could manifest its attributes? 

    This is a great question and was the exact same question I asked when I read the passage. I came to this conclusion that certain attributes of God could not be manifested if evil had not existed. These attributes are known as the Entirely Merciful, The Most Forgiving, Bestower of Mercy, The Reducer, The All-Wise, 
    Possessor of Glory and Honour, Lord of Majesty and Generosity, The Distresser. These attributes could have not been manifested if evil had not existed.

    It seems the god or gods put forward are a bit like the man behind the screen in the wizard of Oz where one is meant to tremble in fear and reverence in his presence 

    Well, I mean he is the All-Powerful, His existence alone humbles us and assist us in abstaining from bad choices and actions. So I don't see this as a bad thing, as again we have free will and are entitled to act in what we believe in.

    What interests me more regarding the problem of evil is the fact I as a mere human cannot think of a crime that merits an eternity in Hell fire or any type of such eternal suffering yet a god or gods can and do ( apparently) , also if I can forgive a fellow human of a crime why does a god need to constantly punish why not forgive? 

    Hell's eternality is something that is debated, and right now I'm on the middle ground. I don't believe that Hellfire will be eternal but some punishments would have such a long duration that it might as well be deemed as an eternity. I believe that Hellfire is a punishments for the disbelievers, but in the eyes of the Qur'an God refers to Hellfire as the reward of disobedience. I also believe that Hellfire was created to absolve people of their sin until only their innate disposition remains. This innate disposition in the belief of God is known as the fitrah which every single human being possess.Therefore every human being possess good in the eyes of God and as a result Allah will exercise his mercy upon the inhabitants of the Fire. But at the same time, the Qur'an states that those in the Fire will remain forever.

    One important note is that Allah forgives more than he punishes, way more. If he was the strict, and unmerciful God you're implying then we can say that none of us would enter Paradise as we have all had mistakes and sinned. It's quite simple in Islam, just say sorry with sincerity for doing bad and you're forgiven without a doubt. We have what I like to call "sin cheats" in which you could literally erase all of your past sins by uttering some words for like 5 minutes. I'm not exaggerating that's really what we have to do.

    God offers so much mercy, and it's quite sad that Atheists assume they can never be forgiven. Yes you can, just say sorry. 


    Basically was gods choice to watch the men , women and children being gassed to death a “moral choice” if so how?

    Why are you assuming that every action God does is morally-motivated? I previously states that His Divine Wisdom is also a motivator for his actions, so then why only morality? 

    @Dee





  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu

    Ibn Qayyim does not go down this route, but rather he formulates a wisdom behind good and evil existences. In this case, the only mystery is knowing what existences could lead or indirectly cause another existence, but this knowledge is not necessarily the most relevant element of this argument. The most relevant thing is the possibility that an existence of a particular evil could indirectly lead to an existence that is beloved by God which is evident in the world. For example, polytheism, pagan and immoral practices were considered an evil that has been condemned by God in revelation. Yet out of these evils arised the prophets and scriptures which is an ultimate good from a religious standpoint. Slavery has led to the economic prosperity of many nations that were beloved by God and we could go on. 


    But a “particular evil “ differs from religion to religion and god to god , I could lose or freedom  in a Muslim country for not abiding by what Allah deems good or evil. As an Atheist I think for myself and have gone through life pretty well without the need of adherence to a god or gods which I have seen zero evidence for 

    Nations becoming prosperous on the backs of slaves was dreadful and if a god needs these evils for some grand plan to succeed he is not worthy of worship 


    This is a great question and was the exact same question I asked when I read the passage. I came to this conclusion that certain attributes of God could not be manifested if evil had not existed. These attributes are known as the Entirely Merciful, The Most Forgiving, Bestower of Mercy, The Reducer, The All-Wise, Possessor of Glory and Honour, Lord of Majesty and Generosity, The Distresser. These attributes could have not been manifested if evil had not existed.

    But why could they have not manifested without evil?

    Well, I mean he is the All-Powerful, His existence alone humbles us and assist us in abstaining from bad choices and actions. So I don't see this as a bad thing, as again we have free will and are entitled to act in what we believe in.

    ”Bad choices “ differ from person to person and are entirely subjective a devout Muslim would deem several of my life choices “immoral “ and “bad choices “ , I could easily do likewise with him /her 

    I don’t believe we have free will . A god cannot have free will as a god knows the future including his future choices even if he changes then several times he still knows his final future choices , if one claim he doesn’t he cannot be all powerful can he? 



    Hell's eternality is something that is debated, and right now I'm on the middle ground. I don't believe that Hellfire will be eternal but some punishments would have such a long duration that it might as well be deemed as an eternity. I believe that Hellfire is a punishments for the disbelievers,


    Why would Allah condemn me to hell for not believing in him? I have read and studied the Quran and Bible and as a much younger man tried to find a god , why would a god punish me for not believing in him?

    I cannot and wouldn’t pretend to believe for the sake of it. It’s rather like saying you must suffer Christian hell fire for accepting Allah as your god , I also would find this very unfair as you’re a Muslim because you have found the belief system that makes sense to you , I’m no different in that respect 

    but in the eyes of the Qur'an God refers to Hellfire as the reward of disobedience. I also believe that Hellfire was created to absolve people of their sin until only their innate disposition remains. This innate disposition in the belief of God is known as the fitrah which every single human being possess.Therefore every human being possess good in the eyes of God and as a result Allah will exercise his mercy upon the inhabitants of the Fire. But at the same time, the Qur'an states that those in the Fire will remain forever.


    A brutally unfair god , I cannot think of one crime that merits an eternity in Hell fire 

    One important note is that Allah forgives more than he punishes, way more. If he was the strict, and unmerciful God you're implying then we can say that none of us would enter Paradise as we have all had mistakes and sinned. It's quite simple in Islam, just say sorry with sincerity for doing bad and you're forgiven without a doubt. We have what I like to call "sin cheats" in which you could literally erase all of your past sins by uttering some words for like 5 minutes. I'm not exaggerating that's really what we have to do.

    God offers so much mercy, and it's quite sad that Atheists assume they can never be forgiven. Yes you can, just say sorry. 

    If when I die and there was a god facing me he would know my mind and have to accept that I didn’t accept him as I didn’t find  the “evidence “ for him convincing , a god would no doubt be delighted I rejected all the other non existent gods and I could ask him how the evidence for him was any better ?



    Why are you assuming that every action God does is morally-motivated? 

    Because Muslims tell me Allah is “pure and perfect “ , I can and do  accept that a god watching a child being raped is  not morally - motivated enough to intervene , I certainly would intervene 

    I previously states that His Divine Wisdom is also a motivator for his actions, so then why only morality? 

    So his wisdom is not all morally grounded , please explain?


  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    But a “particular evil “ differs from religion to religion and god to god , I could lose or freedom  in a Muslim country for not abiding by what Allah deems good or evil.

    Yes, religions are diverse and as a result their definitions of evil and good may vary, but Ibn Qayyim's argument only seeks evil as a whole not evil of a particular religion, meaning that this argument could be used for any religion as this a much more general passage. Although I understand how you feel, regarding all the different religions. There are so many so how do we know which one is right? All I say is that Allah is the most just of judges and that you should ponder and let your intellect and reason take you somewhere. 

    As an Atheist I think for myself and have gone through life pretty well without the need of adherence to a god or gods which I have seen zero evidence for.

    Well, I'm glad life seems great for you, but the Qur'an mentions why this is:

    “And never think that Allah is unaware of what the wrongdoers do. He only delays them for the Day when eyes will stare [in horror].” Quran 14:42

    “And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrongdoing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes, neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment)” [al-Nahl 16:61]:

    Allah the Almighty makes it clear in the Qur'an that He delays the punishment of the disbelievers until a appointed term which is indeed the Day of Judgement. So from a Islamic perspective, the only reason your life is going rather "smoothly" is because He has delayed your punishment. I would personally take this as a Mercy as he could totally hasten the punishment as He has done before.
    This also gives you an opportunity to repent, but is also meant to appear that life can be great without God. In other words, a delusion.

    Nations becoming prosperous on the backs of slaves was dreadful and if a god needs these evils for some grand plan to succeed he is not worthy of worship 

    Well that's your opinion but the fact that Allah, Creator of Mankind created us is already a sufficient reason to worship Him. Trying to fully understand His Wisdom, could ultimately lead to one doubting themselves, but rather we leave certain aspects that we cannot comprehend with faith. Not only, did Allah create you, he allowed to come out the womb successfully, walk, see, hear, talk, express emotion, eat, sleep, and grow in body and knowledge. His blessings are countless and continuous.

    A brutally unfair god , I cannot think of one crime that merits an eternity in Hell fire 

    I understand why disbelief in God doesn't seem like a big deal, as it's everywhere in the world. But rebellion and defiance against the Lord is a clear transgression and is the greatest offense in the eyes of God. Doing so, would be breaking the covenant and breaking the trust and love between the Creator and creation. It truly is a big deal but someone who always engaged in sin could not know the magnitude of this rebellion.

    Hm, so are you saying that Hitler or Stalin don't deserve Hellfire?

    If when I die and there was a god facing me he would know my mind and have to accept that I didn’t accept him as I didn’t find  the “evidence “ for him convincing , a god would no doubt be delighted I rejected all the other non existent gods and I could ask him how the evidence for him was any better ?

    But that's exactly the problem, evidence. Atheists tend to use the burden of proof upon theists and like to ask "How can you believe in a God with no evidence". Firstly, this would imply that God's existence is somehow constricted by the necessity of evidence and a lack of evidence would lead to a lack of validity in God's existence. But the fact of the matter is, that God is not bound by the necessity of evidence and His existence would still remain even if this necessity of evidence didn't exist. Secondly, Allah makes it clear in the Qu'ran that He requires faith to believe in His existence, not evidence.

    Allah will declare, “This is the Day when ˹only˺ the faithful will benefit from their faithfulness. Theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow, to stay there for ever and ever. Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. That is the ultimate triumph.” [5:119]

    So if you were to meet God on the Day of Reckoning, and tell him that there was no evidence for His existence and that is why you turned away from His Signs, the Almighty would likely say what the verse just said, "This is the Day when ˹only˺ the faithful will benefit from their faithfulness.". You were not faithful when it was asked of you to do so, disregarding the Scriptures, prophets and most importantly Allah, the Exalted merely because you believed there was no evidence and as a result you have obtained the greatest loss, the displeasure of Allah, the Giver of Bounty.

    Because Muslims tell me Allah is “pure and perfect “ , I can and do  accept that a god watching a child being raped is  not morally - motivated enough to intervene , I certainly would intervene

    Yes, Muslims believe that Allah's judgment and Will have no error and is therefore perfect, but the mistake you're making is taking everything Allah does and assuming that this is a manifestation or representation of His morality. I would also like to point out something very crucial. Islamic morality directly originates from the Quran, not directly from God. Meaning that Muslims do not take the actions of Allah as a representation of His morality as our moral teachings originate from the Quran solely. Just because Allah is the Absolutely Pure and Perfect does not mean He intends to base all of His actions on what is right and wrong. That's an assumption, and does not take into account His attributes.

    So his wisdom is not all morally grounded, please explain?

    Allah's Divine Wisdom is based on what beloved to Him not what is morally acceptable from a human perspective. Allah is not obliged to satisfy your subjective morals and attempting to base such subjectivity as a objective moral truth is like I've said many times a grave error. Human wisdom alone is hard enough to understand but trying to fully understand the wisdom of the All-Wise, Owner of Wisdom is something that can't be done. This doesn't mean we could never understand but it means we could never fully understand the whole extent of Allah's wisdom.

    @Dee

     












  • Keal303NXQ3Keal303NXQ3 55 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu I believe the problem of evil should be that, not exactly because there is evil but more so unnecessary and too much that should've been otherwise rid of. I believe, without the presence of some displeasure, pleasure can't be measured. With that in mind, your happiness will also plateau once it reaches a certain point because some actions simply won't affect you anymore since you can't know how much happiness you're getting. It's the same thing as indulging yourself with pleasure and eventually becoming null, dull, and numb to it. You lose a sense of gratefulness. You'll then want to strive for better, or more quantities of that pleasure-inducing action. Again, your happiness will effectively plateau. It's more worthwhile for bad things to counter good things and vice versa so either one doesn't become numbed out. Essentially, you need balance.

    The problem arises when we have lives that haven't gained such a life. Those who have starved to death and/or lived a sorrowful life never got or get to find a real significant pleasure. 

    The problem of evil is unbalance.
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    @Keal303NXQ3

    I believe the problem of evil should be that, not exactly because there is evil but more so unnecessary and too much that should've been otherwise rid of. I believe, without the presence of some displeasure, pleasure can't be measured. With that in mind, your happiness will also plateau once it reaches a certain point because some actions simply won't affect you anymore since you can't know how much happiness you're getting. It's the same thing as indulging yourself with pleasure and eventually becoming null, dull, and numb to it. You lose a sense of gratefulness. You'll then want to strive for better, or more quantities of that pleasure-inducing action. Again, your happiness will effectively plateau. It's more worthwhile for bad things to counter good things and vice versa so either one doesn't become numbed out. Essentially, you need balance.

    A very valid point and I am in no disagreement there. I believe that if evil did not exist we would not be grateful for the good we have nor would we know the true worth and beauty of goodness. Great job!

    The problem arises when we have lives that haven't gained such a life. Those who have starved to death and/or lived a sorrowful life never got or get to find a real significant pleasure. 

    Islam is the solution that will provide that life of pleasure, and for those that have suffer unimaginably with no pleasure than Allah will surely reward them for he is the Utterly Just and Merciful.

  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu


    Yes, religions are diverse and as a result their definitions of evil and good may vary, but Ibn Qayyim's argument only seeks evil as a whole not evil of a particular religion, meaning that this argument could be used for any religion as this a much more general passage. Although I understand how you feel, regarding all the different religions. There are so many so how do we know which one is right? All I say is that Allah is the most just of judges and that you should ponder and let your intellect and reason take you somewhere. 

    A Christian would tell me the very same only apply it to a Christian god , I’m a former Catholic reason has led me to Atheism 



    Well, I'm glad life seems great for you, but the Qur'an mentions why this is:

    “And never think that Allah is unaware of what the wrongdoers do. He only delays
     them for the Day when eyes will stare [in horror].” Quran 14:42

    It is and idle threats regards gods were used and failed on me regards the Christian god so your quote is meaningless to me 

    “And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrongdoing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes, neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment)” [al-Nahl 16:61]:

    Allah the Almighty makes it clear in the Qur'an that He delays the punishment of the disbelievers until a appointed term which is indeed the Day of Judgement. So from a Islamic perspective, the only reason your life is going rather "smoothly" is because He has delayed your punishment. I would personally take this as a Mercy as he could totally hasten the punishment as He has done before.
    This also gives you an opportunity to repent, but is also meant to appear that life can be great without God. In other words, a delusion.


    The only delusion is believing in a god to start and you only do so because you’re a victim of indoctrination if you were born here you would be a Catholic 



    Well that's your opinion but the fact that Allah, Creator of Mankind created us is already a sufficient reason to worship Him. Trying to fully understand His Wisdom, could ultimately lead to one doubting themselves, but rather we leave certain aspects that we cannot comprehend with faith. 


    No that’s not a “fact “ that an unproven assertion 

    Faith is the excuse people use for believing something without sufficient evidence 

    Not only, did Allah create you, he allowed to come out the womb successfully, walk, see, hear, talk, express emotion, eat, sleep, and grow in body and knowledge. His blessings are countless and continuous.

    Tell that then to the millions of children who are born with cancer yearly and tell their parents to count their blessings 



    I understand why disbelief in God doesn't seem like a big deal, as it's everywhere in the world. But rebellion and defiance against the Lord is a clear transgression and is the greatest offense in the eyes of God. Doing so, would be breaking the covenant and breaking the trust and love between the Creator and creation. It truly is a big deal but someone who always engaged in sin could not know the magnitude of this rebellion.

    To me sin is a ridiculous concept the worst people I’ve ever met have been those who claimed to be religious because they use religion to victimize , brutalise and demonise others 

    Hm, so are you saying that Hitler or Stalin don't deserve Hellfire?

    No one deserves to be roasted for eternity , what purpose does revenge serve a god?



    But that's exactly the problem, evidence. Atheists tend to use the burden of proof upon theists and like to ask "How can you believe in a God with no evidence". Firstly, this would imply that God's existence is somehow constricted by the necessity of evidence and a lack of evidence would lead to a lack of validity in God's existence. But the fact of the matter is, that God is not bound by the necessity of evidence

    Making the whole concept of a god utterly ridiculous 

    and His existence would still remain even if this necessity of evidence didn't exist. Secondly, Allah makes it clear in the Qu'ran that He requires faith to believe in His existence, not evidence.

    The Quran is a deeply flawed book of contradictory nonsense 

    Allah will declare, “This is the Day when ˹only˺ the faithful will benefit from their faithfulness. Theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow, to stay there for ever and ever. Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. That is the ultimate triumph.” [5:119]

    So if you were to meet God on the Day of Reckoning, and tell him that there was no evidence for His existence and that is why you turned away from His Signs, the Almighty would likely say what the verse just said, "This is the Day when ˹only˺ the faithful will benefit from their faithfulness.". You were not faithful when it was asked of you to do so, disregarding the Scriptures, prophets and most importantly Allah, the Exalted merely because you believed there was no evidence and as a result you have obtained the greatest loss, the displeasure of Allah, the Giver of Bounty.


    Right so again believe in your god or face the music every religion claims their god is the real one , remember if you’re wrong Hell fire awaits you 



    Yes, Muslims believe that Allah's judgment and Will have no error and is therefore perfect, but the mistake you're making is taking everything Allah does and assuming that this is a manifestation or representation of His morality. 

    So perfect he can watch a child being raped and his “judgement “ to do so is “perfect” ?

    I would also like to point out something very crucial. Islamic morality directly originates from the Quran, not directly from God. Meaning that Muslims do not take the actions of Allah as a representation of His morality as our moral teachings originate from the Quran solely. Just because Allah is the Absolutely Pure and Perfect does not mean He intends to base all of His actions on what is right and wrong. That's an assumption, and does not take into account His attributes.

    Yes the whole concept is ridiculous  

    So his wisdom is not all morally grounded, please explain?

    Allah's Divine Wisdom is based on what beloved to Him not what is morally acceptable from a human perspective. Allah is not obliged to satisfy your subjective morals and attempting to base such subjectivity as a objective moral truth is like I've said many times a grave error. Human wisdom alone is hard enough to understand but trying to fully understand the wisdom of the All-Wise, Owner of Wisdom is something that can't be done. This doesn't mean we could never understand but it means we could never fully understand the whole extent of Allah's wisdom.


    Basically the same song and dance all religions do and it’s used to justify everything it’s playing the mystery card as in god works in mysterious ways , it’s the only excuse believers have 

    @Dee
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 96 Pts   -  
    A Christian would tell me the very same only apply it to a Christian god , I’m a former Catholic reason has led me to Atheism 

    Well, like I said before this argument does not have to address a particular god, but rather the argument seeks the general evil of the world. I believe that reason should actually lead you to Atheism and then Islam, as the statement "There is no god but Allah" contains an atheistic element "There is no god" From there one should ponder and it will eventually lead to to believe in a higher power.
    I would like to know some of the arguments Catholics use and what made you ultimately leave the religion? Be specific if you can.
     
    The only delusion is believing in a god to start and you only do so because you’re a victim of indoctrination if you were born here you would be a Catholic.

    Islam does not advocate for indoctrination, as we promote reason and questioning. It's not prohibited to critique Islam as a Muslim as the Qur'an suggests that you ask the ulama to address your critiques and questions. I've critiqued Islam many times, and I have had satisfying answers which ultimately strengthened my faith even more.

    To me sin is a ridiculous concept the worst people I’ve ever met have been those who claimed to be religious because they use religion to victimize , brutalise and demonise others. 

    I disagree, although religion certainly has been used a tool of oppression but never Islam, if anything Islam was being oppressed. Basic Islamic history supports this, and I think generalizing all the religions of the world is a mistake. Religions are diverse so to claim that every religion was used to brualtise others is a exaggerated generalization. 

    No one deserves to be roasted for eternity , what purpose does revenge serve a god?

    Again, Hell's eternality is debated and notable Islamic scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim have stated that Hellfire is indeed not eternal. Regardless of whether it is or isn't, it's undeniable that Allah will exercise His Mercy upon the inhabitants of Hellfire, as many hadiths record those in Hellfire being excused and ultimately enter Jannah as a result of God's Mercy. Although as too why Allah has made the punishment so severe is something that I would like to research more, but so far here are my points.

    Nay, it has become manifest to them what they had been concealing before. But if they were returned (to the world), they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden. And indeed they are liars." (6:28)

    This verse of the Qur'an suggests that if the disbelievers would return back to Earth after it was made clear to them that Allah exists, they would STILL continue to sin against Allah. 

    Another verse mentions this:

    I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them. (7:146)

    This means the even if evidence was given, people still wouldn't worship Allah and I find this valid as I have asked many atheists if they would worship God if he was proven. Almost all of them say no and I'm sure you wouldn't.

     There are many other verses that explain the severity and magnitude of rebelling against God and his Messenger.

    Indeed, the worst of all beings in the sight of Allah are the ˹wilfully˺ deaf and dumb, who do not understand. (8:22)

    Notices that it says "in the sight of Allah". I believe it mentions this because to a human being this is not as severe but in the eyes of Allah it is the most severe transgression.

    So perfect he can watch a child being raped and his “judgement “ to do so is “perfect” ?

    I'm going to mention this point in another message so be on the lookout.

    Yes the whole concept is ridiculous.

    What's so ridiculous about this? and you could have at least given a better answer.

    Basically the same song and dance all religions do and it’s used to justify everything it’s playing the mystery card as in god works in mysterious ways , it’s the only excuse believers have 

    Like I said in the last statement, we can only understand God to a certain extent. There are aspects of the universe in which we don't understand but I don't believe we call the universe a mystery, do we? I don't really see this as an excuse but rather an accepting of magnitude of God, the infinite being. 

    Right so again believe in your god or face the music every religion claims their god is the real one , remember if you’re wrong Hell fire awaits you.

    Well, not exactly. If you were wrong but were never exposed to the truth (Islam) then it can be said that Allah is Utterly Just and Merciful. There's a difference between being wrong and outright making horrendous choices and actions.
















  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu


    Well, like I said before this argument does not have to address a particular god, but rather the argument seeks the general evil of the world. I believe that reason should actually lead you to Atheism and then Islam, as the statement "There is no god but Allah" contains an atheistic element "There is no god" From there one should ponder and it will eventually lead to to believe in a higher power.


    It didn’t eventually lead me to believe in a higher power 


    I would like to know some of the arguments Catholics use and what made you ultimately leave the religion? Be specific if you can.
     

    They’re the same as the ones Muslims use there is on one true god Catholicism is the one true religion every religion goes the same way and when you reject their nonsense you’re threatened with Hell fire , god is like a mafia boss adore a particular one or pay the price


    The only delusion is believing in a god to start and you only do so because you’re a victim of indoctrination if you were born here you would be a Catholic.

    Islam does not advocate for indoctrination, as we promote reason and questioning.

    Thats nonsense are you telling me as an infant you were given a choice of religions?

     It's not prohibited to critique Islam as a Muslim as the Qur'an suggests that you ask the ulama to address your critiques and questions. I've critiqued Islam many times, and I have had satisfying answers which ultimately strengthened my faith even more.

    Try critiquing it in Saudi Arabia 



    To me sin is a ridiculous concept the worst people I’ve ever met have been those who claimed to be religious because they use religion to victimize , brutalise and demonise others. 

    I disagree, although religion certainly has been used a tool of oppression but never Islam, if anything Islam was being oppressed. Basic Islamic history supports this, and I think generalizing all the religions of the world is a mistake. Religions are diverse so to claim that every religion was used to brualtise others is a exaggerated generalization. 

    My claim stands Islam is a regressive and divisive belief system and humans rights abuses in its name are a societal norm in Islamic countries

    Tell me how is islam progressive and inclusive ?



    No one deserves to be roasted for eternity , what purpose does revenge serve a god?

    Again, Hell's eternality is debated and notable Islamic scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim have stated that Hellfire is indeed not eternal.

    How would they know ? If they did they wouldn’t be debating it would they ?

     Regardless of whether it is or isn't, it's undeniable that Allah will exercise His Mercy upon the inhabitants of Hellfire, as many hadiths record those in Hellfire being excused and ultimately enter Jannah as a result of God's Mercy. Although as too why Allah has made the punishment so severe is something that I would like to research more, but so far here are my points.

    Nay, it has become manifest to them what they had been concealing before. But if they were returned (to the world), they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden. And indeed they are liars." (6:28)

    This verse of the Qur'an suggests that if the disbelievers would return back to Earth after it was made clear to them that Allah exists, they would STILL continue to sin against Allah. 

    Another verse mentions this:

    I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it.And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them. (7:146)


    That still doesn’t answer why wouldn’t a god just forgive?

    This means the even if evidence was given, people still wouldn't worship Allah and I find this valid as I have asked many atheists if they would worship God if he was proven. Almost all of them say no and I'm sure you wouldn't.

    That’s utter nonsense every Atheist I know would accept a god if proven , you seem to have this absurd notion that atheists reject a god out of stubbornness , I don’t believe because I haven’t seen sufficient evidence to believe in any god 

     There are many other verses that explain the severity and magnitude of rebelling against God and his Messenger.

    It’s not “rebelling “ it’s a lack of evidence 

    Indeed, the worst of all beings in the sight of Allah are the ˹wilfully˺ deaf and dumb, who do not understand. (8:22)

    Notices that it says "in the sight of Allah". I believe it mentions this because to a human being this is not as severe but in the eyes of Allah it is the most severe transgression.


    Again all your doing is demonstrating threats to non believers , when you present concrete evidence for your god let me know 


    So perfect he can watch a child being raped and his “judgement “ to do so is “perfect” ?

    I'm going to mention this point in another message so be on the lookout.

    You did but your answer says nothing regards what I asked 

    Yes the whole concept is ridiculous.

    What's so ridiculous about this? and you could have at least given a better answer.

    That’s a good answer as in if a child was not exposed to religion or god concepts till the age of 16 and presented with the Quran and Bible they would reject them for the nonsense they are 

    Basically the same song and dance all religions do and it’s used to justify everything it’s playing the mystery card as in god works in mysterious ways , it’s the only excuse believers have 

    Like I said in the last statement, we can only understand God to a certain extent. There are aspects of the universe in which we don't understand but I don't believe we call the universe a mystery, do we? 

    I certainly do as we have barely examined it and have only started 

    I don't really see this as an excuse but rather an accepting of magnitude of God, the infinite being. 

    That makes no sense to me 

    Right so again believe in your god or face the music every religion claims their god is the real one , remember if you’re wrong Hell fire awaits you.

    Well, not exactly. If you were wrong but were never exposed to the truth (Islam) then it can be said that Allah is Utterly Just and Merciful. There's a difference between being wrong and outright making horrendous choices and actions.

    There you go you’re saying again you’re right everyone else is wrong you sound exactly like the priest from my Catholic college who told us of the Hell fire that awaited Muslims , you and he are two sides of the one coin


    Incidentally you said god gave all humans his blessings at birth but never addressed that you neglected to mention the millions of babies born yearly with cancer and horrible diseases , how are they and their parents blessed?

  • maxxmaxx 569 Pts   -  
    evil and good are concepts created by humans. they do not exist in nature.@KhasimAmedu
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @maxx
    evil and good are concepts created by humans. they do not exist in nature.

    I don't think humans have ever set out to create evil and good insomuch that they are more like human behaviors and though not nature, are result of human nature.

  • maxxmaxx 569 Pts   -  
    all animalistic behavior to a human may seem good or evil, but it is natural; and it takes human morals that developed to believe that such actions in humans are either good or bad.@Swolliw
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