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How Far Does the "Right to Worship" Go?

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As we all (should) know, religious followers have been persecuted ever since their strange beliefs were invented. So, it is no wonder then that the most anti-social of their behaviors singled out is bigotry.

For example, in the 19th century, slaveholders and their sympathizers defended slavery by pointing to its presence in the Bible as evidence that it fits within God's plan for social order.

And so, we hear cries of foul from religious zealots over complaints from minority groups at being vilified. Simply quoting that the Bible or Quran "says so" hardly cuts the mustard nowadays since the credibility of both nauseating works has been shot to ribbons and are both loathed by more people than those who follow their respective "books of rules to live by for the weak and vulnerable". 

Religious groups it seems, are becoming more sophisticated now in their ugly stance against decent, moral society by citing the "right to religious freedom".

A pretty powerful shield to hide behind in order to insult or deride anyone who doesn't fit into their particular "in-group" don't you think?

Do those who shout out for their self-centered "religious rights" ever give a toss for "civil rights"?
We_are_accountable
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  • CharletteCharlette 24 Pts   -  
    Hi sir, I'm not sure what the debate question is here, exactly. I would say that the right to worship (or do anything) goes as far as the point that it negatively effects anyone other than one's self.
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotxlJ_dolphin_473
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @Charlette

    You could have taken the words of this anti Christian bigot, and posted them during Hitler's reign. These are the rantings of authoritarian dictators. Just replace this  topic of religious freedom with Jewish freedom.

    Hitler painted Jews as being harmful to German society. He judged them as a danger to Germans just as this fool painted Christians as supporters of racism (COMPLETE LIE).

    This is how Leftists work. They demonize their oppsotion just as the Liberal media and Democrat Party demonizes Conservatives. They label them racists, nazi's, homophobes, haters of women, haters of immigrants, etc. etc..... all to divide and conqueor.

    They ban them from social media all under the guise of supposed hate speech, or instigation of harm to others. This is the modus operandi of the Left. They now have the bully pulpit of Leftwing media, Professional Sports, and Social media corporations to spread their misinformation! This is the biggest threat to America's freedoms in our lifetimes.

    It's quite amazing how Democats have no problem with the groups who are actually causing non stop riots, death and distruction, all in the name of Black Lives matter. It all comes down to dictatorlike politicians dividing a nation into groups, and using this division for political purposes. I can not believe how a record number of people actually voted for these Democrat antagonists.

    You mentioned how freedom stops when people's actions negatively affect others. I wonder if these Black Lives Matter riots negatively affected the owners of the businesses burned to the ground? Owners who had nothing to do with some Cop shooting. I wonder if it affects those who are killed and injured, all under the guise of supposed coordinated racism in the police force.

    I have actually listened to sound bites of Democrats telling us how violence is sometimes justified in order to make change. Funny when it came to the riot at the White House, Democrats were beside themselves with self righteous anger towards rioters using the same tactics for change.

    We all asked how the German people could have become so brainwashed to embrace Hitler's hatred towards Jews. Just read the words of this debate, demonizing people with religious beliefs, making them out to be evil and dangerous. This is how an authoritarian Government takes control of the people. We are witnessing how easily a people can be brainwashed when the Left has the media to propogate their distortions.

    Don't give these bigots the time of day. Their lives are filled with insecurity and hate. Politicians instigate this hate by sensationalizing the actions of a few, and painting entire groups, or Police forces as the culprit. Low end voters are easily swayed. People not grounded in faith are easily manipulated to the doctrine of Social Media. Don't be fooled, it's a political correct cult just like any other.

    PlaffelvohfenLuigi7255
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 233 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    Tbh, I agree with you calling him an "anti-Christian bigot", but you HAD to bring politics into this, to an argument that had NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.
    PlaffelvohfenTreeManxlJ_dolphin_473
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @Charlette
    Hi sir, I'm not sure what the debate question is here, exactly.
    I can see that you are new here and I can understand your confusion. If you scroll to the top of the page, you will notice the topic in bold headlines. It reads, "How Far Does the Right To Worship Go?" The big clue is the question mark at the end of the topic which denotes a question directly preceding it. Therefore, one can then see that the debate question is probably going to be along the lines of  "How Far Does the Right To Worship Go?"

    I would say that the right to worship (or do anything) goes as far as the point that it negatively effects anyone other than one's self.
    Yep, I think that is a reasonable conclusion. I do get the impression though from many religious fanatics that their right to worship is a given right irrespective of the negative impact on others. For example, I have heard the argument from Christian fanatics that it is all right to vilify minority groups such as gays because it is written so in the Bible and they are quite entitled to do so because of their right to worship.
    We_are_accountable
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    You are the very liar I speak to. Your hatred will spew any distortion of facts to further your insecure bigotry towards Christians. You call Christians fanatics and then wonder why they speak out against those trying to oppress our freedoms.

    Christians do not support vilifying Gays or any other group. We speak to the obvius fact that God says Homosexuality is a sin, just as adultry, stealing, lying, etc. are sins.

    Christians do not vilify sinners as we have all sinned in our lives. We speak to what our faith teaches, to warn non believers. We speak out against the Left because it is trying to brainwash our children to believe that Homosexualoty is a natural normal sexual orientation. It is not and it will never be. Try taking the Science of Biology once more. Learn how our bodies are designed, and the natural sexuality between a man and woman.

    We speak out to what our faith stands for, which is love and forgiveness for all people, but we will not stay silent while non believers indoctrinate our children to deny science.

    You take the actions of a few false Christians and try to paint the entire Christian faith as the same.

    Ignore!
    TreeMan
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255

    Yes, I brought politics into this because the same distortions coming from this bigot are coming from the Left. Wake up.
    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 233 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    We can call the right "anti-Muslim bigots" since they lump them together with terrorists.
    We_are_accountablePlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    You call Christians fanatics and then wonder why they speak out against those trying to oppress our freedoms.

    I don't wonder at all and expect nothing less of a group that is notorious for its ill-tempered outpourings of ignorance and arrogance. It's a bit like road rage really. The guilty party always shouts the loudest.

    Christians do not support vilifying Gays or any other group. We speak to the obvius fact that God says Homosexuality is a sin, just as adultry, stealing, lying, etc. are sins.

    You just contradicted yourself in two sentences. It is a sad reflection of Christians that they find it necessary to be cowards and hide behind the Bible to justify their ill-gotten, bigoted beliefs.

    We_are_accountable
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 120 Pts   -  
    And of course, you being a good Christian must be horrified at the lies and distortions of the Republican party's "stolen" election.
    As for your statement that you will not allow nonbelievers to indoctrinate your children to deny science and that nonbelievers need to study human biology. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it is Christians who indoctrinate their children to deny science and that it is Christians who need to study human biology. Human biology will not teach you that if the body ceases to function and death occurs, that a couple of days later that once dead body returns to life. That is probably the worst denial of science that Christians teach their kids, and indeed, each other. @We_are_accountable
    We_are_accountablePlaffelvohfenLuigi7255CYDdhartaTreeMan
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -   edited May 11
    @Luigi7255

    That is a lie! Trump and most people on the Right want to prevent TERRORISTS coming into our nation, not all Muslims!

    We clearly differentiate between radicals and peaceful Muslims. What you just said is repeating fake news!
    PlaffelvohfenLuigi7255TreeMan
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr

    As always, you repeat distortions and insults towards Christians just as the Nazi's did against Jews.

    News flash, it is not a lie that election officials changed our election laws concerning non requested mail in ballots! The law clearly states that the State's legislature must make those types of changes. Biden would have never won if they did not allow mail in ballots to be flooded into our cities with little ability to verify their identities.

    Ask yourself how an ancient Joe Biden, with mental impairment, who most people admitted they did not even like, recieved an all time record number of votes! More than Obama!

    The courts lacked the guts to over throw an election by disallowing all those non requested mail in ballots. Democrats purposely distorted the dangers of Covid to defeat Trump. Election officials changed our mail in ballot laws on the so called basis it being dangerous to stand in lines to vote with masks on.

    This entire election was a joke! Biden can't even speak with leaders because of his mental impairments!
    PlaffelvohfenLuigi7255CYDdhartaTreeMan
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 233 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    "We clearly differentiate between radicals and peaceful Muslims."

    HAHAAHAHAH! You say that you think you know the difference between radical and peaceful Muslims? You don't know how many times I've heard people on the right say all Muslims are terrorists.
    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 120 Pts   -  
    Not only do you play the Christian victim card, you have a political victim card in the pack too. Never mind, I'll send you a box of giant size Kleenex tissues so as you can dry your tsunami of tears.  @We_are_accountable
    LiamThePersonWe_are_accountableCYDdhartaPlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 629 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr

    As always, you repeat distortions and insults towards Christians just as the Nazi's did against Jews.

    News flash, it is not a lie that election officials changed our election laws concerning non requested mail in ballots! The law clearly states that the State's legislature must make those types of changes. Biden would have never won if they did not allow mail in ballots to be flooded into our cities with little ability to verify their identities.

    Ask yourself how an ancient Joe Biden, with mental impairment, who most people admitted they did not even like, recieved an all time record number of votes! More than Obama!

    The courts lacked the guts to over throw an election by disallowing all those non requested mail in ballots. Democrats purposely distorted the dangers of Covid to defeat Trump. Election officials changed our mail in ballot laws on the so called basis it being dangerous to stand in lines to vote with masks on.

    This entire election was a joke! Biden can't even speak with leaders because of his mental impairments!
    I'm not sure where you could even go to pick up these beliefs. Sadly, the American people had to pick between two old men who are likely near or on the age of mental decline. You can't just single one out and claim he's the only one who has or is likely to soon have problems. 

    As for the election fraud conspiracy, if you're this far without listening to reason on this issue, you're either deceiving yourself or can't bear being wrong. 
    We_are_accountableCYDdhartaTreeMan
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255

    I'm sure there are peoplle who say that, just as there are racists who say all Black people are criminals. Liberal media outlets constantly try to paint all Conservtives as racists, etc.
    Stop acting like low end voters and believig what the media tells you.

    When I speak to what the Left is doing, it is not just a few radicals, but the entire Leftwing media, the Democrat Party, Social media, all singing the same toon.

    They are trying to FORCE every public school to allow boys, who think they are girls, into our daughter's sports!
    They try to force every State to allow No Restriction abortions!
    They forced every State to change their marriage laws!
    They want to allow illegal immigrants voting rights in American elections!
    They try to force States to change their election laws under threats of boycotts!
    They told North Carolina they could no longer host the NCAA championships if they did not cahnge their bathroom policies!

    I could go on and on over what these authoritarian thought police are doing in this nation.
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr

    That's rich coming from people like you. The Left spends every waking moment trying to force their ideology on all people. The Left can't go a day without whining about their special interest voting blocks... LGBT, illgal immigrants, Black lives matter, women, environmentalists, etc. etc.
    They are like broken records whining about the sky is falling... NON STOP!
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 1131 Pts   -  
    @LiamThePerson

    Trump's mental ability made him the hardest working, get things done, President in our history. I could not care less how old someone is until they act like Biden, who can not say a sentence wirthout reading it on a telepromter.

    Try watching TV outlets that cover all the news instead of the misinformation from CNN.

    It is fact that election officials do not possess the power to change election laws! The Legislature must make those changes!
    You are the one living in some fanatical dream world of denial. Keep repeating the lies from the Left. You can say there was no corruption in our elections a thousand times, and it is still pure garbage. I agree that all claims of election fraud could not be proven, but the mailin ballot election laws were changed without proper Legislature approval.
    TreeMan
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 233 Pts   -  
    @We_are_accountable

    Authoritarian?! You think we're authoritarian for letting people do what they want and letting them be what they want to be? What are you? An anarchist? (No offense to anarchist100) Let me explain in a way that you'd understand. Left don't command, left don't hate people, left are good. You authoritarian more than left. There, can you understand that? It's still sad you think Trump won.
    CYDdhartaDebater123TreeMan
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 120 Pts   -  
    ".... Coming from people like me?

    You know nothing about my political view. You have no idea what I think about voting blocks, LGBT, immigration. BLM, women, environmentalists, but you are not one to let a lack of knowledge about a person get in the way of making statements about that person.
    I would send you another box of Kleenex, but I don't suppose it would do any good as you won't stop crying until it finally dawns on you that Trump lost the election.@We_are_accountable
    LiamThePersonTreeMan
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 629 Pts   -  
    @LiamThePerson

    Trump's mental ability made him the hardest working, get things done, President in our history. I could not care less how old someone is until they act like Biden, who can not say a sentence wirthout reading it on a telepromter.

    Try watching TV outlets that cover all the news instead of the misinformation from CNN.

    It is fact that election officials do not possess the power to change election laws! The Legislature must make those changes!
    You are the one living in some fanatical dream world of denial. Keep repeating the lies from the Left. You can say there was no corruption in our elections a thousand times, and it is still pure garbage. I agree that all claims of election fraud could not be proven, but the mailin ballot election laws were changed without proper Legislature approval.
    What makes you think I watch CNN? CNN is overtly biased to the left. I don't watch partisan news. On the other hand, your statements about Trump and Biden make it clear you watch partisan news. 
    TreeMan
  • CharletteCharlette 24 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw Thanks for teaching me, I apologize. I thought that was just a subject or something and a more specific question was elsewhere, my mistake.It seems like I'm seeing mostly people's unsubstantiated opinions in here without any evidence provided to support their claims.

    @We_are_accountable I totally agree, it's ironic that the left is doing exactly what they proclaim to be against. 
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @Charlette
    @Swolliw Thanks for teaching me, I apologize. I thought that was just a subject or something and a more specific question was elsewhere, my mistake.It seems like I'm seeing mostly people's unsubstantiated opinions in here without any evidence provided to support their claims.

    You'll get used to my blunt sarcasm and dark humour. It's just my way of getting a point across by stirring things up a bit. One thing I have found is that thorough research and high quality information are your best tools. My posts may seem to be hard-hitting but they are always deadly accurate in their wording and content. I also usually have my tongue slightly planted on the inside of my cheek. 

  • CharletteCharlette 24 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw lol well you do seem to be alone here against all these irrational people. It's frustrating to talk with anyone who doesn't even accept data or facts
  • anarchist100anarchist100 535 Pts   -   edited May 23
    @Swolliw
    You have the right to have whatever religion you want as long as you're not killing, or torturing people, or imposing your beliefs on others.
    TreeMan
  • CharletteCharlette 24 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 It seems like for so many, that killing, torturing, or imposing beliefs on others is not only acceptable by just about all religions, but also encouraged and even part of their doctrine. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1621 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @We_are_accountable
    Authoritarian?! You think we're authoritarian for letting people do what they want and letting them be what they want to be?




     What are you? An anarchist? (No offense to anarchist100) Let me explain in a way that you'd understand. Left don't command, 



    left don't hate people, left are good. You authoritarian more than left. There, can you understand that? It's still sad you think Trump won.


    Debater123TreeMan
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @Charlette
    lol well you do seem to be alone here against all these irrational people. It's frustrating to talk with anyone who doesn't even accept data or facts

    That's the challenge when arguing religion.

    There is no rationale or reason to believe in God so logic and reason are foreign languages to those besotted with religion. Similarly, it is hard for most atheists to understand the way of thinking of theists. If theists listened to reason and facts, there would be no theists.

  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100
    You have the right to have whatever religion you want as long as you're not killing, or torturing people, or imposing your beliefs on others.

    Well said. So often I get the argument from theists that they have unconditional freedom to practice their religion and any criticism is considered a breach of their perceived freedom.

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -   edited May 24
    @Swolliw

    "Well said. So often I get the argument from theists that they have unconditional freedom to practice their religion and any criticism is considered a breach of their perceived freedom."

    Specifics please to the arguments they made. You speak in too many generalities and make sweeping blanketed remarks about groups of people for anyone to make any real arguments against what you are saying.  Not all theists think the same.

    The only specific argument you gave came from the 19th century and I'd argue that theism had a large part to play with ending slavery and for viewing people as equals.  Slavery existed in secular cultures as well and if the argument can be made it benefitted them economically it most likely still would.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -   edited May 25
    @MichaelElpers
    Specifics please to the arguments they made. You speak in too many generalities and make sweeping blanketed remarks about groups of people for anyone to make any real arguments against what you are saying.
    Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid your statement is too general and more of a sweeping blanketed remark to know what specifically you are talking about. (And, yes, I did mean to be sarcastic, since you gave me the opportunity fair and square on that one.)
    The point I was getting across about slavery is that theists quoted (and still do quote) the Bible as their reasoning for slavery.

    "Not all theists think the same" I find is a very convenient statement theists use to excuse themselves from contentious issues.....
    "They (other theists) hate gays, but I'm not like them, my denomination is different", for example.
    If it's not quoting the Bible, it's blaming others in the faction.....excuses, excuses, and poor excuses they are indeed.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    I'm not sure how I gave you that opportunity as I provided no general statement.

    "Not all theists think the same" I find is a very convenient statement."

    Why?  If an atheists thinks something does that mean I can apply that to all atheists?
    Not all theists even believe the same as far as religion, so a defense that I'm not like them could be a perfectly good argument.

    Again I need more specific arguments to defend. 
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    Again I need more specific arguments to defend. 
    (We've got a live one here folks.)
    .....Ahem......., allow me to rephrase what both I and Blind Freddy would clearly accept as "arguments to defend".

    I think that theists quoted (and still do) the Bible as their reasoning for slavery. Do you agree with this statement?

    ("Not all theists think the same") Do you find this to be a very convenient statement for theists use to excuse themselves from contentious issues? And why"They (other theists) hate gays, but I'm not like them, my denomination is different", for example.
    If it's not quoting the Bible, it's blaming others in the faction.....excuses, excuses, and poor excuses they are indeed. Do you agree with this statement, and why?

    You will note that I have placed the question marks in bold which clearly indicates a specific argument to defend. You will also note that I have given a specific example to one of the specific arguments that I made.

    (Now folks, let's see if the debater is actually going to rise to the challenge or come up with more delaying tactics.)
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    I do not represent the opinions and beliefs of all theists.  It would be better if you could at least specify a specific religion.

    "I think that theists quoted (and still do) the Bible as their reasoning for slavery. Do you agree with this statement?"

    They may, but it doesn't mean they don't have a perverted interpretation.  I'd imagine without theism slavery would largely still exist.  Those in power would have little reason to dismiss it without a sense of morality.

    "Do you find this to be a very convenient statement for theists use to excuse themselves from contentious issues? And why?"

    No. If your asking a question about all theists, I actually think that is the only way to respond.  If you asked why does my specific religion (Catholic) hate gays, I can respond in kind with a specific answer...we don't.  If you'd like to point out in Canon law or the catechism where it states we do, be my guest.  But here's what it actually states:
    "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity"

    I also think it is perfectly fine to say certain theists are misrepresenting your religion if they are following its actual beliefs.  If their denomination doesn't hate guys, why is stating that not a perfectly acceptable response?
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    If you asked why does my specific religion (Catholic) hate gays, I can respond in kind with a specific answer...we don't. 

    You (Catholics) do. The Vatican has decreed that it will not accept gay marriages. Whether you wish to play on the semantics of the word "hate" is up to you but I can also see the "I'm not like them" or "not all theists are the same" argument creeping in. 

    I can accept what you say to a degree since not all Catholics are actually Catholics. For example, a recent federal census here in Australia showed that less than 14% of Catholics regularly attend Church. In other words, it backs up my suspicion that most Christians give their faith no more than lip service and don't always agree with strict policy. 

    It has prompted me to dig up an old argument of mine regarding guilt by association which I shall write about soon. So, stay tuned, it should give you plenty of (hopefully) specific fodder to dig your teeth into :)


  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -   edited May 26
    @Swolliw. Disapproving of an act as sin and hating someone is different.
    Again the catechism states:
    "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity"
    No semantics with the word hate.  In my opinion, as a civil union, they can do whatever they want, they just can't get married in the church.

    I agree with you about lip service.
    Yes there are a lot of "Catholics" that don't go to church regularly or follow church teaching. If they are not following the teachings and make up their own rules, can they really represent the religion?
    It would be like saying you represent the thoughts and opinions of a political party with ideas that contradict what the platform stands for.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw. Waiting.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
     In my opinion, as a civil union, they can do whatever they want, they just can't get married in the church.

    Yet heterosexual partners can get married in a Church. The Catholic Church is going against societal trends and even the law. And however the Catholic Church wants to guild the lily over homophobia, It still incites homophobia and vilification of minority groups, gays are not the only group discriminated by the Catholic Church by the way. So are unmarried mothers, pro-euthenists and pro-abortionists.

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw. The church are only against trends that break church teaching.

    The rest of your claims are unfounded. It is against sinful action, you will not find any catholic church teaching stating that you should hate or react with hate towards any of these groups.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    The church are only against trends that break church teaching.

    Translated in truthful English...."The Catholic Church is a law unto itself and will openly flout the law of the land to enforce its own agenda of vilification of minority groups."

    you will not find any catholic church teaching stating that you should hate or react with hate towards any of these groups.

    I will and I have. Again, you are twisting meanings in a vain attempt at trying to wriggle out of the fact that the Catholic Church incites hatred.

    No, there is no Catholic Church teaching that "states" that you should hate.......However, owing to it's homophobic rules (e.g. non-marriage of gays), vilification of unmarried mothers, pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, the catholic Church encourages and promotes anti-social hatred towards these groups. 

    Therefore my claims are completely founded. You have made no claims, rather, you have danced around the issues I have raised. Why does the Catholic Church still abide by such draconian, hurtful, vile rules...hatred born out out of ignorance and arrogance. Try to dress it up as much as you can but hatred is hatred and the Catholic Church has a long and unenviable record of sticking its nose up against the rest of society.

  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 120 Pts   -  
    Again the catechism states:
    "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity"

    I think the Catholic church is caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to its attitude towards homosexuals. Serving priests have testified that many of their fellow priests are homosexual. I am not stating that in order to criticize priests who are homosexual, it is just a fact.
    The church's long and ongoing scandal regarding child sex abuse has had the effect to lay the blame for such abuse at the door of the priests who are homosexual when it is widely agreed that most homosexual men have no sexual interest in children.
    If as your catechism states, that homosexuals are to be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity, that is commendable, but too often the church's action, or indeed inaction, in dealing with priests who were known child abusers is far from commendable.
     @MichaelElpers
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr
    If as your catechism states, that homosexuals are to be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity, that is commendable, but too often the church's action, or indeed inaction, in dealing with priests who were known child abusers is far from commendable.

    If I may just comment that I find it all too common that some people of a disposition of, let's say, lacking knowledge, will treat the words "homosexual" and "paedophile" as being interchangeable. Why, I don't know, if I were cynical, I suspect that it is an attempt to infer that one "sin" leads to another.

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr. Being homosexual is not itself sin, acting on it is.  There is nothing wrong with being a homosexual priest as homosexuals and priests are called to chastity.

    Regarding child sexual abuse, it should have never been hidden period. 
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    Being homosexual is not itself sin, acting on it is.

    If being homosexual is not a sin how would "acting on it" (whatever that means) constitute being a sin?

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -   edited May 28
    @Swolliw

    ...so no actual evidence.  I've provided actual church teaching, you're just providing your biased hateful opinions based on ideas that don't exist within the church because as everyone has seen you hate religion with a passion.

    There is no difference in the teaching for unmarried mothers vs unmarried fathers.
    Again stating something in sinful/wrong is not the same as vilification.  Apparently any disagreement with an action as immoral is draconian and vile.

    And just naming something is wrong doesn't mean your sticking your nose up at society. Humility is one of the actions widely taught.  "Let those of you without sin cast the first stone"
    Does everyone within the Church always follow this rule...no.  Pride being one of the seven deadly sins.

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw. Having a sexual inclination towards someone of the same sex is not a sin in the Church, acting on the preference is.

    That's how a lot of things are. I may want to curse certain times but if I don't I have commited no sinful act.  Unmarried heterosexual men may want to have sex, but have commited no sin unless they actual commit the action.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    That's how a lot of things are.

    ......in the (blinkered) eyes of the Catholic Church, you mean.

    It is the Catholic Church which has contrived homosexual sex and sex outside of marriage to be "sinful".

    Such an attitude is at odds with the views of decent civilised society and in some cases, at odds with the law.

    "Having a sexual inclination towards someone of the same sex is not a sin in the Church"......come on now, pull the other one.

    The Catholic Church preaches and incites homophobia and followers of such anti-social attitudes are guilty of the same by reason of guilt by association.

    Is it any wonder why Christians (especially Catholics) are leaving Churches in droves? 

    Is it any wonder why I walked out of my Church in disgust at the continual deceit, lies, bigotry, hatred, and fear-mongering that goes on in those oppressive, backward, anti-social institutions?

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 860 Pts   -   edited May 28
    @Swolliw

    Most things are that way.  You can't get in trouble for thinking about stealing something.  But in regards to sin of course that's a religious thing, sin is not part of the secular ideas.

    "The Catholic Church preaches and incites homophobia"
    Show me evidencd of the church preaching that incites homophobia?  I want something other than saying it's sinful because I don't consider that homophobia. 

    I actually think the reason people are leaving is because there is much less conviction on beliefs.  They've dumbed everything down becoming scares that not being inclusive of all actions will drive people away instead of providing the reasons why.


  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 239 Pts   -  
    With the right to worship we can worship freely and without the government being able to stop us, and that is a good thing.
  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 239 Pts   -  
    MrDebatePerson2

    Remember, we are free.
  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 239 Pts   -   edited May 28

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