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Does God Really Want Everyone to be Saved?

Debate Information

@TrueLove
God wants all to be saved.

Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

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  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    God communicates with those who love Him.  We love God by obeying Jesus' teachings.


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  

     God communicates with some and not others.  Here is what the Bible says about who those people are:

    John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

    Psalm 25:9 He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.

    Psalm 25:14 The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.

    Proverbs 3:32 for the LORD detests the perverse, but He is a friend to the upright.

    Proverbs 28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully.

    Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

    John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.

    TreeMan
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove
    God communicates with those who love Him.

    So, if I earnestly try my best and get to love God, will he make me a friend on His (obviously secret) Facebook page?

    GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God communicates with those who love Him.

    So, if I earnestly try my best and get to love God, will he make me a friend on His (obviously secret) Facebook page?

    I don't think you could ever humble yourself with all that stubborn rebellious pride.
    GnosticChristianTreeMan
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    As I see it, when you want someone to be saved and you can save them, then you save them. For example, when someone is drowning in a lake, you do not stop, look at them and think, "Did they live a righteous life?" You first jump in and save them, and then, once they are safe, pursue this line of inquiries.

    A god refusing to save people who do not conform with its ideals means that it does not want to save those people. It wants something else from them, and, as a reward, it saved them. This is a very different type of desire. Expanding on the "drowning in a lake" analogy, it would be equivalent to me agreeing to save the person as long as they deposit some monetary amount into my bank account. Now, obviously, they cannot do this in their situation - but I can come by and keep them on the verge of drowning, holding them just high enough for them to pull out their smartphone and do this for me.
    This appears to be god's behavior in all monotheistic religions, ultimately. Only god does more: not only does it exploit people finding themselves in this situation - but it intentionally puts them in this situation. Basically, god creates a lot of lakes and puts people into them to drown, then holds them just above water and says, "If you want to be saved, send some money to me".

    I do not know about you, but in all the societies where I have lived, such actions were/are classified as extortion. It is hard to claim that you want to save someone when you put a gun to their head and say, "Give me your money. I really do not want you to die, so you better do this. Let me save you!"
    GnosticChristianTreeMan
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -   edited July 9
    MayCaesar said:
    As I see it, when you want someone to be saved and you can save them, then you save them. For example, when someone is drowning in a lake, you do not stop, look at them and think, "Did they live a righteous life?" You first jump in and save them, and then, once they are safe, pursue this line of inquiries.

    A god refusing to save people who do not conform with its ideals means that it does not want to save those people. It wants something else from them, and, as a reward, it saved them. This is a very different type of desire. Expanding on the "drowning in a lake" analogy, it would be equivalent to me agreeing to save the person as long as they deposit some monetary amount into my bank account. Now, obviously, they cannot do this in their situation - but I can come by and keep them on the verge of drowning, holding them just high enough for them to pull out their smartphone and do this for me.
    This appears to be god's behavior in all monotheistic religions, ultimately. Only god does more: not only does it exploit people finding themselves in this situation - but it intentionally puts them in this situation. Basically, god creates a lot of lakes and puts people into them to drown, then holds them just above water and says, "If you want to be saved, send some money to me".

    I do not know about you, but in all the societies where I have lived, such actions were/are classified as extortion. It is hard to claim that you want to save someone when you put a gun to their head and say, "Give me your money. I really do not want you to die, so you better do this. Let me save you!"
    Your mistake is you use your own analogy to compare it to what happens when one is to be saved.

    You have to do something to show you want to be saved.  

    A person has to do what Jesus says to do.  He came to show us the way.  

    GnosticChristianTreeMan
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 9
    @TrueLove

    What for? The god is not intelligent enough to figure out who wants to be saved and who does not? And, for that matter, who would not want to be saved from the alleged eternal torment? I certainly would. It is unfortunate that god, in its infinite wisdom, decided to organize all evidence around me in such a way that I would have to conclude that that torment is a fantasy.

    I am just envisioning a scene: "This guy seems to be drowning in a lake. Hmm, but perhaps he is just acting! Or maybe this is how he swims, and the screams for help are just his favorite way to exercise his lungs. And even if he is drowning... What if he wants to drown? He may be enjoying this whole experience. Better not interfere!"
    GnosticChristianTreeManxlJ_dolphin_473
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    Any god worthy of us would want and succeed in saving all of his, as Jesus calls us, children of god.

    Strangely, this seems to exclude Jesus himself whom Yahweh sacrificed to ease his guilt at planning to create sin, for his own pleasure.

    The belief part refers to the ideology of whoever or whatever one consider god to mean.

    The more Gnostic Christian types have condemned Yahweh's to hell and that is why we are known as the only good Christians.

    This is not true in reality but only in our side being the moral side.

    Regards
    DL



    TreeMan
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God communicates with those who love Him.

    So, if I earnestly try my best and get to love God, will he make me a friend on His (obviously secret) Facebook page?

    I don't think you could ever humble yourself with all that stubborn rebellious pride.
    Says the moral coward who always run's from discussing the immoral stance he takes on major issues.

    To humble ones self to you and the satanic god you follow, would be bowing down to evil.

    Your bar of excellence is so low, no human get get that low.

    That is why Yahweh and St. Hitler are your heroes.

    Regards
    DL

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God communicates with those who love Him.

    So, if I earnestly try my best and get to love God, will he make me a friend on His (obviously secret) Facebook page?

    I am there, but anonymous to date. :-)

    I hope you are not referring to Yahweh.

    To my way of thinking, the only way I would want to get close to such a god would be with the means to kill him.

    Regards
    DL

  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -   edited July 9
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

    What for? The god is not intelligent enough to figure out who wants to be saved and who does not?

    God does know, and He doesn't save those who do not want to be saved.


     And, for that matter, who would not want to be saved from the alleged eternal torment?

    There are many people who do not believe.


     I certainly would.

    Then what are you doing to get saved?


    It is unfortunate that god, in its infinite wisdom, decided to organize all evidence around me in such a way that I would have to conclude that that torment is a fantasy.

    It is spiritual.  It is a heart condition.  Your heart is not right.  Jesus tells you how to make your heart right.


    I am just envisioning a scene: "This guy seems to be drowning in a lake. Hmm, but perhaps he is just acting!  Or maybe this is how he swims, and the screams for help are just his favorite way to exercise his lungs. And even if he is drowning... What if he wants to drown? He may be enjoying this whole experience. Better not interfere!"

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.  By the way, I know two women pretending to drown and a man jumped in to save them, and his back locked up from an old accident, and he drowned.
    I just don't understand your point so could you clarify?

    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    MayCaesar said:
    Your mistake is you use your own analogy to compare it to what happens when one is to be saved.

    You have to do something to show you want to be saved.  

    A person has to do what Jesus says to do.  He came to show us the way.  

    The lake was a perfect analogy when the last resort lake of fire is poured out of existence.

    You fail and our friends get's an A Plus.

    Your second is ridiculous. 
    It is to the judge to prove the charge and not to the defendant show he did not do as charged.

    Not surprising, given your love of a genocidal god, that your law would be as twisted as his.

    If I am wrong, what sin did you do to earn you a death sentence?

    If I am right, admit your poor thinking.

    The first part of your last is an outright lie, which can be proven to be satanic advise by analysing some of Jesus' actions and tenets, like genocide in his Yahweh guise.

    Those moral tenets is what you and your ilk keep running away from looking at.

    Moral Coward comes to mind.

    Regards
    DL




  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    Any god worthy of us would want and succeed in saving all of his, as Jesus calls us, children of god.

    Strangely, this seems to exclude Jesus himself whom Yahweh sacrificed to ease his guilt at planning to create sin, for his own pleasure.

    The belief part refers to the ideology of whoever or whatever one consider god to mean.

    The more Gnostic Christian types have condemned Yahweh's to hell and that is why we are known as the only good Christians.

    This is not true in reality but only in our side being the moral side.

    Regards
    DL




    Jesus didn't come to get married, have children, have a home and some earthly wealth.
    God came as a man named Jesus to show us the way and die for us.
    The old covenant was about sacrificing innocent lambs for sins.
    Jesus is called the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world.
    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God communicates with those who love Him.

    So, if I earnestly try my best and get to love God, will he make me a friend on His (obviously secret) Facebook page?

    I don't think you could ever humble yourself with all that stubborn rebellious pride.
    Says the moral coward who always run's from discussing the immoral stance he takes on major issues.

    To humble ones self to you and the satanic god you follow, would be bowing down to evil.

    Your bar of excellence is so low, no human get get that low.

    That is why Yahweh and St. Hitler are your heroes.

    Regards
    DL

    You show you can never humble yourself either.
    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

     Better not interfere!"
    In my country, watching a rape, as well as many more sins/crimes, --- without interference ,--- is to be an accessory after the fact.

    If we judged the judge as we judge ourselves, we would find Yahweh guilty of assisting in many crimes, not only his genocide of man.

    Regards
    DL

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:


    You show you can never humble yourself either.
    I do as required by couth.

    You have none, but see that, at least here, you agreed with my judgement of your blindness.

    You have humbled yourself to an evil genocidal satanic god.

    Shame on you.

    I am proud to have cast him and his theology to hell.

    Regards
    DL
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    Any god worthy of us would want and succeed in saving all of his, as Jesus calls us, children of god.

    Strangely, this seems to exclude Jesus himself whom Yahweh sacrificed to ease his guilt at planning to create sin, for his own pleasure.

    The belief part refers to the ideology of whoever or whatever one consider god to mean.

    The more Gnostic Christian types have condemned Yahweh's to hell and that is why we are known as the only good Christians.

    This is not true in reality but only in our side being the moral side.

    Regards
    DL




    Jesus didn't come to get married, have children, have a home and some earthly wealth.
    God came as a man named Jesus to show us the way and die for us.
    The old covenant was about sacrificing innocent lambs for sins.
    Jesus is called the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world.
    I was talking of the issues with logos and you return, after ignoring it all, with mytyhose garbage that does not speak to what I put.

    The moment I mention or allude to morals or improprieties for Yahweh, you show your moral coward side and try to deflect.

    You are getting dishonest, annoying and predictable.

    Regards
    DL
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove

    You are confusing things. Believing and wanting to be saved are very different things. I do not believe in "eternal torment", but I would like to be saved from one if it actually exists. If god is really as wise as you claim it is and actually wants me to be saved, it should be able to understand my position and save me.

    Why should I have to do anything to be saved? You yourself said that it is enough to want to be saved. If your god requires some worshipping done before saving someone, then it does not want to save them; it wants being worshipped by them. Just like a robber demanding that you give him your wallet, lest he has to shoot you, does not want you to be saved - he wants your money.

    Strange; my doctors tell me that my heart is fine. Only a bunch of ancient books tell me that it is not, written at the time when doctors mostly treated their patients with sweet talk and spoiled wine. If that is where your god has chosen to hide the snippets of truth about the afterlife, then it must be quite a comedian. ;)

    My point is pretty straightforward: your god is claimed to be omniscient, yet it cannot figure out simple things that any human baby can. A human baby can see a drowning person and realize that the person needs help. Your god, on the other hand, is confused and conflicted: "What if they enjoy the process of drowning?" What a wise and charitable being indeed!
    GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:


    You show you can never humble yourself either.
    I do as required by couth.

    You have none, but see that, at least here, you agreed with my judgement of your blindness.

    You have humbled yourself to an evil genocidal satanic god.

    Shame on you.

    I am proud to have cast him and his theology to hell.

    Regards
    DL
    Only to your demise.  
    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    Any god worthy of us would want and succeed in saving all of his, as Jesus calls us, children of god.

    Strangely, this seems to exclude Jesus himself whom Yahweh sacrificed to ease his guilt at planning to create sin, for his own pleasure.

    The belief part refers to the ideology of whoever or whatever one consider god to mean.

    The more Gnostic Christian types have condemned Yahweh's to hell and that is why we are known as the only good Christians.

    This is not true in reality but only in our side being the moral side.

    Regards
    DL




    Jesus didn't come to get married, have children, have a home and some earthly wealth.
    God came as a man named Jesus to show us the way and die for us.
    The old covenant was about sacrificing innocent lambs for sins.
    Jesus is called the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world.
    I was talking of the issues with logos and you return, after ignoring it all, with mytyhose garbage that does not speak to what I put.

    The moment I mention or allude to morals or improprieties for Yahweh, you show your moral coward side and try to deflect.

    You are getting dishonest, annoying and predictable.

    Regards
    DL
    You are the dishonest annoying and predictable one.

    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

    You are confusing things.
    No I am not.


    Believing and wanting to be saved are very different things. I do not believe in "eternal torment", but I would like to be saved from one if it actually exists.

      If god is really as wise as you claim it is and actually wants me to be saved, it should be able to understand my position and save me.


    You are too ignorant to have enough kindness and respect to call God a 'Him' when speaking to someone who does believe in Him.  


    Why should I have to do anything to be saved? You yourself said that it is enough to want to be saved. If your god requires some worshipping done before saving someone,

    You don't want to be saved because you don't believe there is anything to be saved from, so you want God to save you anyway IF there really is something to be saved from?  Not going to happen unless you are retarded.  


    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • DeeDee 4169 Pts   -   edited July 9
    Any god who watches a child being raped is not worthy of respect ,any god who daily watches children dying of starvation is not worthy of respect , your god watched the holocaust happen men ,women and children getting gassed to death tell me why do you fall to your knees to worship such a monster?

    Your god demands daily a- ss kissing or sulks  yet when children cry for food ,shelter or help he ignores ....How's that work?

    Also here is the question you refuse to answer as you ran from it 15 times in the past do you agree that your god watching the holocaust unfold and doing nothing was a moral decision?
    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 9
    @TrueLove

    Accusation of my lack of knowledge is not an argument. I made very simple logical arguments; you have yet to say anything of substance in response to them.
    As to "him" versus "it", it is a matter of language, not respect. "Him" and "her" applies to gendered creatures. God allegedly is a being that is far above such biological entities as genders, thus "it" is the only appropriate way to refer to it.

    Once again... I do not think there is something to be saved from, but according to you I am wrong. If I am wrong, then I certainly would like to be saved from whatever it is I am wrong about.
    If I point a gun at you while you are not looking, do you not want to be saved from my shot? Of course you do, even though you are not aware that the shot is coming. I hardly can kill you and then claim that you did not want to be saved, and so shooting you in the head was justified. No judge, no matter how unreasonable, will ever accept this as an argument in defense of my actions.

    But when god does the same thing, only not with one person, but with dozens billions, and, instead of just putting a bullet through their heads, it condemns them to eternal torment - then it "wants to save us". Something does not add up here, don't you think? ;)
    DeexlJ_dolphin_473GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

    Accusation of my lack of knowledge is not an argument.

    I didn't accuse you. 


    I made very simple logical arguments; you have yet to say anything of substance in response to them.

    You are the accuser and a false one at that.

    As to "him" versus "it", it is a matter of language, not respect. "Him" and "her" applies to gendered creatures. God allegedly is a being that is far above such biological entities as genders, thus "it" is the only appropriate way to refer to it.

    You are not speaking the truth for God refers to Himself as a Him.


    Once again... I do not think there is something to be saved from, but according to you I am wrong. If I am wrong, then I certainly would like to be saved from whatever it is I am wrong about.
    If I point a gun at you while you are not looking, do you not want to be saved from my shot? Of course you do, even though you are not aware that the shot is coming.

    You are being warned the shot is coming and I'm glad to do it.

    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 10
    @TrueLove

    If god refers to itself as "him", then, in addition to all other flaws I have attributed to it, it also does not speak proper English. A god that can create an entire Universe, but cannot learn how English pronouns work... Curious.

    Well, if it is coming, then let me say it out loud here, for all gods, fairies, dragons, leprechauns and other supernatural beings to hear: I do not want to be eternally tormented in the afterlife.
    Now these creatures have no excuse to not save me! Right?
    Moreover, I believe that I speak for every living being here. Hooray, I just saved everyone! Call me a saint, will you?
    GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

    If god refers to itself as "him", then, in addition to all other flaws I have attributed to it, it also does not speak proper English. A god that can create an entire Universe, but cannot learn how English pronouns work... Curious.

    Well, if it is coming, then let me say it out loud here, for all gods, fairies, dragons, leprechauns and other supernatural beings to hear: I do not want to be eternally tormented in the afterlife.
    Now these creatures have no excuse to not save me! Right?
    Moreover, I believe that I speak for every living being here. Hooray, I just saved everyone! Call me a saint, will you?
    blah
    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 10
    @TrueLove

    And that is your response...

    Out of all the people this almighty creator could have sent to me to warn me of the impending doom that it so desires to save me from... Out of all the evidence it could have sent my way that it knows would convince me, an open-minded truth-seeker, of what awaits me...
    It sends someone who posts one word - "blah" - on a debate website.

    I hardly can contain my emotional response to the eagerness with which this god is trying to save me from the version of the afterlife that it itself created!
    xlJ_dolphin_473GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @TrueLove

    And that is your response...

    Out of all the people this almighty creator could have sent to me to warn me of the impending doom that it so desires to save me from... Out of all the evidence it could have sent my way that it knows would convince me, an open-minded truth-seeker, of what awaits me...
    It sends someone who posts one word - "blah" - on a debate website.

    I hardly can contain my emotional response to the eagerness with which this god is trying to save me from the version of the afterlife that it itself created!
     :joy: 
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • DeeDee 4169 Pts   -  
    @TrueLove

    I knew you would chicken out of answering my one question , don’t bother asking your go to preacher he will just stutter and stammer and have no response either 
    GnosticChristian
  • piloteerpiloteer 1327 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    I'm not religious, but you do not have a full understanding of scripture if you believe the bible doesn't preach that God wants us all to be saved. Even if you or I do not believe in the God of the bible, the bible still expresses that God loves us, and you and I still have a direct link (relationship) with God. According to the bible, it is that non-believers choose to ignore the relationship we have with God, therefore it is a one-sided relationship. That does not make God angry with us, it makes him sad and worried about our well-being. Just as any relationship between two people goes, our relationship with God is no different. God could save even the most wicked among us, but that is asking more of God than he is willing to do because the wicked have ignored their relationship with God and established a relationship with Satan. Just like any relationship we have with our friends, when they becomes one-sided relationships, there will be a certain point when we are simply asking to much of them if we expect help from them.      
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @TrueLove

    I knew you would chicken out of answering my one question , don’t bother asking your go to preacher he will just stutter and stammer and have no response either 
    I haven't been reading your posts.  Do you have something you would like to know?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 10
    piloteer said:

    I'm not religious, but you do not have a full understanding of scripture if you believe the bible doesn't preach that God wants us all to be saved. Even if you or I do not believe in the God of the bible, the bible still expresses that God loves us, and you and I still have a direct link (relationship) with God. According to the bible, it is that non-believers choose to ignore the relationship we have with God, therefore it is a one-sided relationship. That does not make God angry with us, it makes him sad and worried about our well-being. Just as any relationship between two people goes, our relationship with God is no different. God could save even the most wicked among us, but that is asking more of God than he is willing to do because the wicked have ignored their relationship with God and established a relationship with Satan. Just like any relationship we have with our friends, when they becomes one-sided relationships, there will be a certain point when we are simply asking to much of them if we expect help from them.      
    There is a lot of problems with this analogy. Just to name a few:
    • Even when your relationship with a friend is one-sided, you still, at least, somewhat care about them - otherwise you cannot call them your friend. Doing the bare minimum to help them is still expected. If you do not want to help them, then that is fine - but you said here that god wants all of us to be saved, so it does want to help us. It has no excuse not to.
    • God is, allegedly, omnipotent. It means that the amount of effort it needs to put in order to save everyone is zero. You are right that in certain friendships a friend may be asking for too much - but there is no "too much" if you are able to deliver anything to them at a zero cost and effort on your part.
    • Consider also the fact that god allegedly has created the world, thus it has created Hell as well. Saving everyone is as simple as destroying Hell, which for a god, again, would take absolutely zero effort to do. Moreover, why even create Hell in the first place if god does not want anyone to suffer?
    A better analogy would be this. You grab a bunch of your friends and drag them against their will to a party at your home, where you force-feed them lethal poison. Then you say, "Guys, I have a gallon of antidote that will completely cure this poison, preventing you from dying a slow and painful death. You only need to take a sip of it each to be completely cured. And I, of course, really want you to be cured! But I am not sure if our relationship is not one-sided. You have to do something to convince me to give you the antidote. Please worship me for a bit, and I will consider it."

    Does this strike you as a savior-like behavior? The Bible can claim whatever it wants about god's intentions, but the explanations provided by it do not align with them. It is not a very coherent book in this respect.
    GnosticChristian
  • YoutubeRisingYoutubeRising 2 Pts   -  
    • Even when your relationship with a friend is one-sided, you still, at least, somewhat care about them - otherwise you cannot call them your friend. Doing the bare minimum to help them is still expected. If you do not want to help them, then that is fine - but you said here that god wants all of us to be saved, so it does want to help us. It has no excuse not to.
    You seem to be missing the point. It is by our own will and accord that we deny God and his love. Claiming that God should at the bare minimum help those that reject and curse Him, is simply not practical. If a friend, curses you, rejects you, and ignores the things you have done for them, then it follows that you won't help them. It's not because that you yourself are heartless individual, but it is because that is what the friend wants. Why would a friend want the help of someone he hates and curses so much? Of course, this idea helping a friend despite being rejected is feasible within Christianity, as God is All-Loving. From this many implications arise, such as if God loves me, then he should want to save me even though I disobey and don't believe in Him , and if God loves me I shouldn't need to burn in the Fire for eternity despite my rebellion. Scholars such as William Craig have promoted this "All-Loving God" which itself is not supported by the Bible. But just using our reason alone, we can arrive at the conclusion that a God that loves everyone including sinners does not make any sense. As I am a Muslim, I believe God loves everyone except those who rebel against Him. 

    • God is, allegedly, omnipotent. It means that the amount of effort it needs to put in order to save everyone is zero. You are right that in certain friendships a friend may be asking for too much - but there is no "too much" if you are able to deliver anything to them at a zero cost and effort on your part.
    Instead of saying "zero" the word "easy" is a more fit word to describe God's omnipotence. And yes, nothing is too much for God, who has No Limit. But then you're presupposing that everyone should be saved for a reason I am not aware of.

    • Consider also the fact that god allegedly has created the world, thus it has created Hell as well. Saving everyone is as simple as destroying Hell, which for a god, again, would take absolutely zero effort to do. Moreover, why even create Hell in the first place if god does not want anyone to suffer?
    The creation of Hell, is a justified creation. If you deny this, then you might as well protest against the creation of prisons, and execution chambers. You're assuming that God created Hell, because he wants to punish people, but this has no Scriptural basis. Rather God created Hell, in order to punish those that rebel against Him. Notice the level of objectivity in both statements. This is done as a result of His superior sense of Justice, thus why I would assert that justice is the motivator for the existence of Hell.  Implying, there's a "want" would imply subjectivity within his Will to create Hell, but we know God is objective, and does whatever is advantageous and necessary in His eyes. Knowing that God's justice is objective, it follows that the purpose of Hell is objective. There is no want involved but rather those who are punished are done so in concordance with His justice which has no error. But really, it was you alone that brought this fate upon yourself. You chose to enter Hell, not God, even thought it may not seem as such.

    A better analogy would be this. You grab a bunch of your friends and drag them against their will to a party at your home, where you force-feed them lethal poison. Then you say, "Guys, I have a gallon of antidote that will completely cure this poison, preventing you from dying a slow and painful death. You only need to take a sip of it each to be completely cured. And I, of course, really want you to be cured! But I am not sure if our relationship is not one-sided. You have to do something to convince me to give you the antidote. Please worship me for a bit, and I will consider it."

    The analogy is flawed. You're presupposing that God forces us into disobedience or rebellion when this is not the case. Rather we do so, by our own free will and accord. Therefore the analogy, would be then:

    "You ask a bunch of friends to attend a party, and they choose to come free from compulsion."

    As long as this flaw exists, your whole analogy breaks down and tumbles from there. 

    @MayCeaser

    GnosticChristian
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 123 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    • Even when your relationship with a friend is one-sided, you still, at least, somewhat care about them - otherwise you cannot call them your friend. Doing the bare minimum to help them is still expected. If you do not want to help them, then that is fine - but you said here that god wants all of us to be saved, so it does want to help us. It has no excuse not to.
    You seem to be missing the point. It is by our own will and accord that we deny God and his love. Claiming that God should at the bare minimum help those that reject and curse Him, is simply not practical. If a friend, curses you, rejects you, and ignores the things you have done for them, then it follows that you won't help them. It's not because that you yourself are heartless individual, but it is because that is what the friend wants. Why would a friend want the help of someone he hates and curses so much? Of course, this idea helping a friend despite being rejected is feasible within Christianity, as God is All-Loving. From this many implications arise, such as if God loves me, then he should want to save me even though I disobey and don't believe in Him , and if God loves me I shouldn't need to burn in the Fire for eternity despite my rebellion. Scholars such as William Craig have promoted this "All-Loving God" which itself is not supported by the Bible. But just using our reason alone, we can arrive at the conclusion that a God that loves everyone including sinners does not make any sense. As I am a Muslim, I believe God loves everyone except those who rebel against Him. 

    • God is, allegedly, omnipotent. It means that the amount of effort it needs to put in order to save everyone is zero. You are right that in certain friendships a friend may be asking for too much - but there is no "too much" if you are able to deliver anything to them at a zero cost and effort on your part.
    Instead of saying "zero" the word "easy" is a more fit word to describe God's omnipotence. And yes, nothing is too much for God, who has No Limit. But then you're presupposing that everyone should be saved for a reason I am not aware of.

    • Consider also the fact that god allegedly has created the world, thus it has created Hell as well. Saving everyone is as simple as destroying Hell, which for a god, again, would take absolutely zero effort to do. Moreover, why even create Hell in the first place if god does not want anyone to suffer?
    The creation of Hell, is a justified creation. If you deny this, then you might as well protest against the creation of prisons, and execution chambers. You're assuming that God created Hell, because he wants to punish people, but this has no Scriptural basis. Rather God created Hell, in order to punish those that rebel against Him. Notice the level of objectivity in both statements. This is done as a result of His superior sense of Justice, thus why I would assert that justice is the motivator for the existence of Hell.  Implying, there's a "want" would imply subjectivity within his Will to create Hell, but we know God is objective, and does whatever is advantageous and necessary in His eyes. Knowing that God's justice is objective, it follows that the purpose of Hell is objective. There is no want involved but rather those who are punished are done so in concordance with His justice which has no error. But really, it was you alone that brought this fate upon yourself. You chose to enter Hell, not God, even thought it may not seem as such.

    A better analogy would be this. You grab a bunch of your friends and drag them against their will to a party at your home, where you force-feed them lethal poison. Then you say, "Guys, I have a gallon of antidote that will completely cure this poison, preventing you from dying a slow and painful death. You only need to take a sip of it each to be completely cured. And I, of course, really want you to be cured! But I am not sure if our relationship is not one-sided. You have to do something to convince me to give you the antidote. Please worship me for a bit, and I will consider it."

    The analogy is flawed. You're presupposing that God forces us into disobedience or rebellion when this is not the case. Rather we do so, by our own free will and accord. Therefore the analogy, would be then:

    "You ask a bunch of friends to attend a party, and they choose to come free from compulsion."

    As long as this flaw exists, your whole analogy breaks down and tumbles from there. 


    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 12
    @KhasimAmedu

    Not believing in god due to lack of evidence is quite different from rejecting and cursing at your friend and things you know they have done for you.
    Regardless, even if my friend treated me in such a way, I still would not wish them ill - and still would do the bare minimum to help them if needed. It takes the omnipotent god zero effort to help anyone, so there really is no excuse not to if it really wants to help them. My claim is exactly that it does not, and you seem to be seconding this notion: that god does not want everyone to be saved.

    I am not presupposing that everyone should be saved. I am saying that if god wants everyone to be saved, which is the central claim of this debate (it is in the title of this thread), then it not saving everyone makes no sense.

    Whether hell's creation is justified or not is irrelevant to my point. God created hell, condemned some humans to it and then decided to save them from it. It would be like me putting a bullet in your head and then, when you are on your deathbed, deciding to treat you in order to try to save you. I would only be saving you from myself, which is not the same kind of "saving" that the term normally suggests. A torturer deciding to stop torturing someone does not "save" them, they just stop hurting them.
    Your claim that "I chose to enter hell" is illogical; no one would willingly choose it. I analyzed evidence and concluded that "hell" does not exist - but, as I said a number of times in this thread, in case it does actually exist, I do not want to end up in there. God tricking me into behaving the way that leads me to hell is not the same as me choosing to enter hell, just like you offering your friend a glass of poisoned wine and them accepting it does not equate to them choosing to be poisoned.

    Those friends that choose not to come to my party are not punished by me for this transgression; I respect their choice. Now, if those friends who did not come to my party ended up tortured in a dark chamber, then my actions would be in line with those of god.
    GnosticChristian
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -   edited July 12
    @piloteer
    ........but you do not have a full understanding of scripture if you believe the bible doesn't preach that God wants us all to be saved.

    The Bible does not preach such however the thread says, "any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?"  Even Blind Freddy is not going to "blindly" believe something that is 100% unproven and God must be a complete numbskull if he expects people to believe his existence when he is so elusive.

    So, the misunderstanding is clearly on your part, and I suggest that next time you decide to take a swipe at an experienced debater, you pay considerably more attention to detail.

    I'm not religious, but......

    How many times have I heard that one before?

    Who do you take me for, Blind Freddy?

  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 123 Pts   -   edited July 12
    Not believing in god due to lack of evidence is quite different from rejecting and cursing at your friend and things you know they have done for you.

    There is evidence for a Creator, but if you're asking for empirical evidence, and will only accept empirical evidence, then you're a product of New Atheism, which normally asserts that empiricism is the only valid path to Truth. Yet, this is not necessarily true. A priori knowledge such as logic (logical deduction) and mathematics which is knowledge independent from empirical evidence, can be true. For example, 1+1=2 is an objective mathematical (a priori) truth, which is undisputed. But can 1+1=2 be observed, or tested? Such an abstract concept cannot be empirically verified, and the moment one tries to test this truth, they fall into circular reasoning.  Therefore, 1+1=2 which is logical deduction, is able to be objectively true without any empirical backing. Thus methods such as deduction and mathematics can be utilized to find valid Truth. Theists have deductive arguments for God, such as the Contingency argument. We can debate, on this if you would like. 

    Regardless, even if my friend treated me in such a way, I still would not wish them ill - and still would do the bare minimum to help them if needed. It takes the omnipotent god zero effort to help anyone, so there really is no excuse not to if it really wants to help them. My claim is exactly that it does not, and you seem to be seconding this notion: that god does not want everyone to be saved.

    Why are you assuming that God does not try to help those, who reject Him? God never abandons those with faith, even if their faith was the equivalent of a grain of rice. God helps those who open their hearts to His help, or simply God helps those who want his help. Would you rather God forcibly helps everyone, even thought some would not want it? That is not plausible. 

    Secondly, you wouldn't be helping your friend. When a friend treats you as such, it's clear that he doesn't want your help. You would be helping him against his will, when it's clear he wants nothing to do with you. In other words, the moment he rejected you or cursed you, he was not your friend. 

    Thirdly, you're making a baseless presupposition. God is omnipotent, so that means he wants to save everyone because it takes zero effort? What is this based on? Imagine if I had an unlimited amount of wealth, should I go ahead and buy expensive cars, purely because I have so much wealth, and doing so, wouldn't be taking anything away from my wealth? This is your logic. God wants everyone to be saved, but those who do not want salvation, God leaves them as they want to be left: Misguided, and in total darkness.

    I am not presupposing that everyone should be saved. I am saying that if god wants everyone to be saved, which is the central claim of this debate (it is in the title of this thread), then it not saving everyone makes no sense.

    You are presupposing that everyone should be saved. You're claiming that since God wants everyone to be saved, it makes no sense that anyone not be saved. Then let me ask this simple question:

    God wants John to be saved just as God wants everyone to be saved.

    John, on the other hand, rejects God's salvation. (Perhaps because he is an atheist)

    Should God continue to give salvation to someone who does not yearn nor ask for it?

    No, it follows that if someone rejects an offer, you don't continue to ask them about the offer. 

    Remember, if you're presupposing that subjectivity dictates God's will and action then this is not true. God does what is advantageous and necessary, thus a more objective approach. Are you even aware of what salvation actually is? It's not just being saved from the Fire.

    Whether hell's creation is justified or not is irrelevant to my point. God created hell, condemned some humans to it and then decided to save them from it. It would be like me putting a bullet in your head and then, when you are on your deathbed, deciding to treat you in order to try to save you. I would only be saving you from myself, which is not the same kind of "saving" that the term normally suggests. A torturer deciding to stop torturing someone does not "save" them, they just stop hurting them.

    You're confused. Where is the scriptural evidence that people will be saved from Hellfire?

    Your claim that "I chose to enter hell" is illogical; no one would willingly choose it. I analyzed evidence and concluded that "hell" does not exist 

    It's not illogical. It's the most direct and clear way to put it. God has given us control over our fates, thus from that perspective we can choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell, as our fates are based on our actions and decisions. Secondly, what evidence? Does analyzing lacking evidence prove that something does not exist? Not necessarily, it just means their isn't much evidence for it. There has been many scientific theories that did not have much empirical backing. Of course, this is only if you believe in logical positivism. 

    But, as I said a number of times in this thread, in case it does actually exist, I do not want to end up in there. God tricking me into behaving the way that leads me to hell is not the same as me choosing to enter hell, just like you offering your friend a glass of poisoned wine and them accepting it does not equate to them choosing to be poisoned.

    You must be an Agnostic. Secondly, if you don't want to end up in Hell, then adhere to God's commandments and believe and follow in what he has revealed. But easily, just repent. Say sorry. That's all you need to do, surely it cannot be that hard to say "Forgive me" and be spared from eternal torment. God has made that easy for us. Thirdly, you're assuming that God tricked you into not believing and rebelling against Him, when that makes no sense. Why would God trick you to do something he does not want you to do in the first place? Rather, you have done this to yourself, by boldly rebelling against Him, and living in delusion.  Remember, you have free will. Blaming what you do on something you don't even believe to be real is like blaming a unicorn for being late to class. It's ignorant and contradictory in every sense of the word.

    Those friends that choose not to come to my party are not punished by me for this transgression; I respect their choice. Now, if those friends who did not come to my party ended up tortured in a dark chamber, then my actions would be in line with those of god. 

    This analogy fails to grasp the reality of sin and God. A party cannot be compared to God's message. I am in no way obliged to attend that party, but as a human being I am obliged to follow what God has revealed. 

    @MayCaesar









    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 12
    @KhasimAmedu

    All these arguments do not change the obvious difference: I can see my friends, talk to them and shake hands with them - which I cannot see with god, nor can I see this "hell" that allegedly exists. If I cannot know that something exists, then I am in the same position with respect to it as a friend who is taking a cup of poisoned wine from my hands.

    If my friend is in a real trouble, then I cannot "help him against his will", as his will is to get out of that trouble. If my friend is being assaulted by thugs on a street and I help them, you hardly can say that I "helped them against their will". And eternal torment is something that absolutely no one wants, obviously. It is impossible to help someone against their will in this situation.
    God created hell. "Leaving people misguided" is the same as me poisoning a drink, handing it over to my friend and "leaving them misguided". In the human society it is considered attempted murder.

    Rejecting an offer is not the same as not being aware of the existence of the offer and, thus, not accepting it. Regardless, my point is that if god wants to save someone and it takes no effort on its part to do so, then it should do it. If they reject god's offer and god thus decides not to save them, then it no longer wants to save them. It is basic logic.

    Once again, being unaware of certain circumstances, but taking action that leads to them, is not the same as choosing those circumstances. You have not addressed this point at all. There have been many things in your life that you did not choose, but your actions led you to them.

    The assumption that god exists is a premise of this entire thread. Obviously I consider this assumption to be ludicrous, but my point is not that it is ludicrous here, but that if this assumption is true, then god's actions do not align with its alleged desire to save everyone.
    Why it would trick me into something it does not want me to do is up to philosophers to figure out. That it does is something that I can conclude logically, based on the assumptions stated.

    That is why I originally made the analogy with me dragging my friends against their will to the party: that is precisely what god does to humans, according to religion. You just agreed with it: you are obliged to do so. You have no choice in the matter: either you do, or you are punished.
    I do not treat my friends like this. And if I did, I certainly would never say that I want to save them: it would be dishonest.
    GnosticChristian
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 123 Pts   -   edited July 12
    All these arguments do not change the obvious difference: I can see my friends, talk to them and shake hands with them - which I cannot see with god, nor can I see this "hell" that allegedly exists. If I cannot know that something exists, then I am in the same position with respect to it as a friend who is taking a cup of poisoned wine from my hands.

    So the only way, you're going to believe in God, is if you see Him, talk to Him and shake hands with Him? What an irrational approach. Have you heard the story of Moses in the Qur'an? God revealed himself to a mountain, and the mountain became dust, and Moses collapsed. You wouldn't be able to live and tell the tale, if God revealed Himself to you. We know that God exists through our intellect and reason but it's clear you want to see God with your own eyes. For that, I ask that you wait until the Day of Judgment. You will surely see Him, but it would have been too late. 

    If my friend is in a real trouble, then I cannot "help him against his will", as his will is to get out of that trouble. If my friend is being assaulted by thugs on a street and I help them, you hardly can say that I "helped them against their will". And eternal torment is something that absolutely no one wants, obviously. It is impossible to help someone against their will in this situation.
    God created hell. "Leaving people misguided" is the same as me poisoning a drink, handing it over to my friend and "leaving them misguided". In the human society it is considered attempted murder.

    What? Who asserted God wouldn't help those that are in trouble? Scripture makes it clear that He does. "Friend being assaulted by thugs" wasn't even in the analogy. You just randomly added it, as if it proves your point, but it has no value. If no one wants eternal torment, then I would ask why rebel against God? God does not misguide people but rather we misguide ourselves. Secondly, if I poison a drink and I give it to someone, it's clear that I have a malicious intention to harm that person. Yet when God, leaves those who are misguided as they are, there is no malicious purpose involved. Because we know that God accepts whoever calls him, rather he leaves those whom he knows will never follow or call out to his name. God is doing no harm in leaving the misguided as such, if they are never going to accept his love or salvation, but ratherHe lets them keep their freedom of will.

    We actually see it as a mercy, when God delays the punishment of the disbelievers. Nations before us, have mocked God's punishment, and claimed that if this punishment is even real, then bring it right now. And indeed God has done what they have requested. When God "leaves the misguided as they are" this doesn't mean they won't be able to believe but rather God is giving you a chance to follow and accept him as your Maker. Obviously there are those who will never do such a thing, hence why some hearts are sealed.

    Rejecting an offer is not the same as not being aware of the existence of the offer and, thus, not accepting it. Regardless, my point is that 

    You, yourself are aware of God's message and salvation thus you are aware of the offer, and now you are accountable. Thus this is why, it is our duty to share our religion and make it known to people, so they may hear the truth. As for those who were never aware of God's message, they will be dealt with justly and fairly on the Day of Judgment.

    if god wants to save someone and it takes no effort on its part to do so, then it should do it. If they reject god's offer and god thus decides not to save them, then it no longer wants to save them. It is basic logic.

    What's wrong with this? I see no problem. He offers salvation for everyone, but those who don't want it, God doesn't give it to them. Is there something wrong with this?

    Once again, being unaware of certain circumstances, but taking action that leads to them, is not the same as choosing those circumstances. You have not addressed this point at all. There have been many things in your life that you did not choose, but your actions led you to them.

    When I say "choosing our fate" you're taking it as if we handpick what we will do, to get to Heaven or Hell, but that's not what I mean. I'm asserting that our fate is based our actions and decisions. If our actions, were just and correct then we have succeeded. There is barely any diversity when it comes to what is "morally good" so if you're going to claim that one might be unaware, then you're claiming that one is unaware of morality which is impractical. We are aware of what is good and what is bad. Thus it follows that we are aware of what actions we should take. Whatever those actions ultimately contribute or lead up to, is diverse, but everyone is aware that we need to do what is good. This is what God commands us to do. He commands us to do what is good and righteous. Thus from this perspective, anyone can be held accountable as long as they have any sense of morality. And to be frank, I think practically everyone is aware of Heaven and Hell, so I would question who is really unaware here. 

    The assumption that god exists is a premise of this entire thread. Obviously I consider this assumption to be ludicrous, but my point is not that it is ludicrous here, but that if this assumption is true, then god's actions do not align with its alleged desire to save everyone.

    You have yet to prove how God's desire for us to be saved is not aligned with his actions. It's been made clear that God wants to save everyone. So what "actions" could you be referring to? The only blame God could receive, is if he took salvation away from someone unjustly but this is never the case. God's judgment has no error. He takes the salvation of those who don't even want nor yearn for it and purposefully reject it. There is no wrong or injustice in this, and it's clear you have a hard time accepting this. As for those who are unaware of his salvation, salvation remains open for them  we say God is the Utterly Just and the Utterly Fair. 

    Why it would trick me into something it does not want me to do is up to philosophers to figure out. That it does is something that I can conclude logically, based on the assumptions stated.

    No, that assertion you made about God tricking you is false. You tricked yourself. And you're certainly tricking yourself when you claim such. I already stated the irrational nature of such an assertion, and you just ignore it. It's a contradictory presupposition. How does God trick you into doing something He forbids one to do?  

    That is why I originally made the analogy with me dragging my friends against their will to the party: that is precisely what god does to humans, according to religion. You just confirmed it: you are obliged to do so. You have no choice in the matter: either you do, or you are punished.
    I do not treat my friends like this. And if I did, I certainly would never say that I want to save them: I am not that intellectually dishonest.

    I can tell you're trying to compare your morality to God's as if yours is superior. I personally don't look at God's actions as a representation of His morality. God's morality is the Qur’an as that is Islamic morality comes from. Thus if you want to criticize God's morals, it should be from the Qur'an, not from his actions alone.

    Yes you are obliged to worship God, and if you reject and rebel against Him you are punished. But we do have a choice in the matter, because of free will. Unlike the angels, God has given us a choice. We can accept or reject the Truth. God has it made it clear, that only one path (Truth) is the successful path, yet people such as yourselves knowingly go to the other path. So while you are obligated, no one is forcing you to follow. You can rebel against God, and no one would be able to do anything unless God wills something to happen. We don't have a problem with this, as the consequences of disobedience will come soon.

    @MayCaeser














    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @KhasimAmedu

    If god is to be comparable to my friend, then, absolutely, I must have interacted with it closely. That is how friends are made.
    There is nothing god can do to make me "believe" in it, but it can do an infinity of simple things to make me accept the fact of its existence if this fact is true. God knows how my mind works, and it should not be hard for it to initiate a simple interaction scenario. That, however, would certainly not make it my friend.

    It is quite possible for someone to not want eternal torment, yet not conform with what god wants them to conform with. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    I am not saying that god has malicious intent in this scenario. I am saying that it does not want to save everyone.
    The concept of "mercy" cannot be applied to situations where one put their victim in in the first place. If I start torturing someone and then relent, then I am not "being merciful". That is I am being merciful with respect to the act of relenting, but not with respect to my overall actions.

    No, I am not aware of the offer, just like you are not aware of the offer by the Leprechaun King to grant you eternal pleasure if you just go outside and eat 5 lb worth of clover.
    And even if I were aware of the offer and chose to reject it, god punishing me for doing so would imply that it was not really an offer; it was an order.

    Nothing wrong with this. It simply means that god does not want everyone to be saved, which is the point I have been trying to deliver throughout the whole discussion.
    I am not criticizing god's reasoning. I am criticizing the claim that god's reasoning is aligned with it wanting everyone to be saved.

    That is the point: we choose our actions, not our fate.
    And you are right, everyone is aware of the concept of heaven and hell. Everyone is also aware of the concept of Batman and Spiderman. Neither of these suggests any particular course of action.

    Whether salvation was not granted to someone "justly" or "unjustly" is completely irrelevant when the question of whether the desire to grant that salvation existed or not.

    I have already explained how a creature arranged all evidence in a way that makes me conclude that it does not exist. It certainly is a trick.

    I do not compare anything to anything. I am saying that god does not want to save everyone, based on the assumptions stated. And you keep agreeing with me, you just do not realize that you do.
    GnosticChristian
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 123 Pts   -   edited July 12
    If god is to be comparable to my friend, then, absolutely, I must have interacted with it closely. That is how friends are made.
    There is nothing god can do to make me "believe" in it, but it can do an infinity of simple things to make me accept the fact of its existence if this fact is true. God knows how my mind works, and it should not be hard for it to initiate a simple interaction scenario. That, however, would certainly not make it my friend.

    Not sure, why you compared God as your "friend" in the first place. God is the Creator of the heavens and the Earth, have some humility and recognize his as your Creator. Nonetheless, your ignorance is showing. You've made up your mind that unless you interact with God himself, you won't believe in him. Yet, this is not the atheist stance. Atheist look for evidence, not some divine interaction, as they would likely label such an experience as hallucination, rather than evidence. Your stance on God, is certainly strange. 

    It is quite possible for someone to not want eternal torment, yet not conform with what god wants them to conform with. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Completely false. 

    1) One does not conform and obey what God has commanded, it follows that they reject salvation and indirectly accept the eternal torment.
    2) As a result, they have been sent to eternal torment.

    This is the only way one receives such eternal torment, according to revelation. Therefore, willingly rejecting the truth, is in a sense accepting eternal torment. It's an implication, not a direct assertion. Each presupposition, follows after the other.

    I am not saying that god has malicious intent in this scenario. I am saying that it does not want to save everyone.

    You have yet to prove this baseless assertion. So I'll repeat. God wants to save everyone, thus he offers salvation for everyone. Those who accept, will receive his salvation and become successful, those who reject it, will not receive his salvation but his salvation still remains open.

    The concept of "mercy" cannot be applied to situations where one put their victim in in the first place. If I start torturing someone and then relent, then I am not "being merciful". That is I am being merciful with respect to the act of relenting, but not with respect to my overall actions.

    God does not begin with "torture" as you're asserting but he starts with salvation. You're also asserting that God puts us in these rebellious situations when we ourselves put ourselves in such situations. Thirdly, his mercy is unconditional and is open for everyone who seeks it. 

    No, I am not aware of the offer, just like you are not aware of the offer by the Leprechaun King to grant you eternal pleasure if you just go outside and eat 5 lb worth of clover. And even if I were aware of the offer and chose to reject it, god punishing me for doing so would imply that it was not really an offer; it was an order.

    Yes, you are. You're aware of God's message, to worship Him. You're aware of the salvation one receives when one worships and accepts God. It's clear that you reject his offer, but you have certainly been made know to the offer. Pretending that you have no knowledge of God's message will get you nowhere. It's an offer in the sense, that you can choose to accept or deny it. It cannot be considered as only as an "order" as you are not being forced to accept or adhere to it. But at the same time, it can be seen as an order, as He asserts your obligation to worship Him.

    So instead of an order, or offer, we call it a "command"

    Nothing wrong with this. It simply means that god does not want everyone to be saved, which is the point I have been trying to deliver throughout the whole discussion.
    I am not criticizing god's reasoning. I am criticizing the claim that god's reasoning is aligned with it wanting everyone to be saved.

    You have provided no explanation for your claims. So I'll wait until I get a decent explanation.

    That is the point: we choose our actions, not our fate.

    These are not mutually exclusive. If one chooses his actions, he can choose his fate, as his actions are his fate, and his fate is what actions were. They are interchangeable. 

    And you are right, everyone is aware of the concept of heaven and hell. Everyone is also aware of the concept of Batman and Spiderman. Neither of these suggests any particular course of action.

    Terrible argument. But gladly you now admit, that everyone is aware of their fate, as you rejected earlier.

    Whether salvation was not granted to someone "justly" or "unjustly" is completely irrelevant when the question of whether the desire to grant that salvation existed or not.

    This desire continues to exist even for you. But God is not going to grant salvation to someone who rejects it, or doesn't want it. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Surely it cannot be that hard. 

    I have already explained how a creature arranged all evidence in a way that makes me conclude that it does not exist. It certainly is a trick.

    You have not explained. Like I stated, you have tricked yourself. Evidence is ambiguous, but because you see evidence a certain way you conclude that God made you see the evidence against Him in that way and thus why you don't believe in Him. The most illogical claim I have ever heard. 

    I do not compare anything to anything. I am saying that god does not want to save everyone, based on the assumptions stated. And you keep agreeing with me, you just do not realize that you do. 

    How can I agree with someone who can't even support their irrational claims? I'll wait until I have some decent responses. Every single assumption you made was wrong. And I correct you, but you ignore my points. 

    @MayCaeser



















    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -   edited July 12
    @KhasimAmedu

    I did not compare god with my friend. @Piloteer did, and I explained why this analogy did not hold up. You were responding to my comment in response to @Piloteer, in turn.

    It is possible to have a want and act in a way that makes fulfilling that want impossible. Acting in such a way does not change the fact that the want is there.

    What your reasoning supports is the claim that god wants to give people a choice whether to act in a way that will make god save them or not. Not that it wants to save them. If an omnipotent being wants to do something, it by definition will necessarily do it, otherwise it is not a want.

    No, god begins with creating hell and heaven, and humans who may be subjected to eternal torment if they do not play its tune. It is enslavement and torture.

    I am aware of "messages" from thousands fictional creatures. I have many of them in my Kindle app!
    None of those messages constitute an offer that I can accept or reject. Books do not make offers.

    No one can choose their "fate", as there are always things outside of one's control. I can take actions that will point me towards the desired outcome, but I cannot assure that that outcome will be achieved no matter how I act.

    It is only a terrible argument from the perspective of a religious zealot, who accepted for no reason other than other people's word that their fictional character is somehow more real than millions other fictional characters.

    I have already said that everyone would want to be saved from eternal torment, thus acceptance of the "offer" is automatic. It is not difficult to understand for me; it is for you, for some reason. ;)
    When I wanted to help my friend with money, I went ahead and sent the money, letting the friend decide what to do with it. The friend was free not to accept the money by just never taking it out of her bank account. This is what wanting to help and being able to looks like.
    God could, say, let everyone live their lives however they want, and then, right after their death, meet with them and say, "Press this button if you want to be saved from eternal torment. Press that button if you want to be eternally tortured."
    But, of course, in your bizarre book god finds a million reasons to make everything more complicated and obscured. As far as character development goes, this one is quite weak.
    But that is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Everything that has been said in this thread by anyone suggests that god does not want everyone to be saved, otherwise it would save everyone, or have designed the world in such a way that everyone would be saved.
    GnosticChristian
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @TrueLove
    God wants all to be saved.

    Fair enough. In which case why doesn't His Nibs dispense with all that "believe in me" crap when He knows darned well that any decent person with a modicum of good sense is naturally not going to believe in something that just so happens to be invisible and 100% non-communicative?

    Isaiah 65:11-12. Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen.

    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

    Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

     


    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    piloteer said:
    @Swolliw

    I'm not religious, but you do not have a full understanding of scripture if you believe the bible doesn't preach that God wants us all to be saved. Even if you or I do not believe in the God of the bible, the bible still expresses that God loves us, and you and I still have a direct link (relationship) with God. According to the bible, it is that non-believers choose to ignore the relationship we have with God, therefore it is a one-sided relationship. That does not make God angry with us, it makes him sad and worried about our well-being. Just as any relationship between two people goes, our relationship with God is no different. God could save even the most wicked among us, but that is asking more of God than he is willing to do because the wicked have ignored their relationship with God and established a relationship with Satan. Just like any relationship we have with our friends, when they becomes one-sided relationships, there will be a certain point when we are simply asking to much of them if we expect help from them.      
    Someone should tell the Deadbeat Dad who cuckolded Joseph before producing his half breed chimera son, Jesus, that relationships need communication.

    God is silent, and does not exist, for all intent and purpose.

    The wise know God likely does not exist, and if Yahweh were the God, moral people would condemn his sorry to hell.

    Christians and morality are quite apart here.

    Ask any Gnostic Christian or moral person.

    Regards
    DL


  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  

    The creation of Hell, is a justified creation. If you deny this, then you might as well protest against the creation of prisons, and execution chambers. You're assuming that God created Hell, because he wants to punish people, but this has no Scriptural basis. Rather God created Hell, in order to punish those that rebel against Him. 

    @MayCeaser

    Thanks for confirming, with amendments, that God created hell to punish people.

    Hell is not a justifiable punishment for an omni everything god.

    You compare your super god to men and then say we are less than your imaginary friend.

    If any man had even a bit of what the deluded think their Gods have, there would be no jails, prisons or execution chambers. 

    Have you not noted just how much more peaceful and law abiding non-believers are?

    If not, think inquisitions, jihads, your homophobia and misogyny.

    Say no to your genocidal Yahweh/Allah. Tell him only a loser would need a hell for his defects.

    A good god has none.

    Regards
    DL



  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  


    This analogy fails to grasp the reality of sin and God. A party cannot be compared to God's message. I am in no way obliged to attend that party, but as a human being I am obliged to follow what God has revealed. 

    @MayCaesar
    What is the reality of sin and god?

    The last is fiction and sin quite normal, from a naturalist POV. A biblical one as well if you read it like a Gnostic Christian.

    Is sin the happy fault and necessary to god's plan that Christians sing it to be?

    If not, why does god give us all sin natures?

    If necessary to your repentance and salvation, why are you not venerating sin the way Christians sing and do?

    Why else would they/you venerate a genocidal god?

    Regards
    DL
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

     


    So even knowing the truth of your genocidal god, moral men will still reject his evil .

    Why are your morals so much lower?

    That is 1 for those with a decent moral sense and 0 for homophobic and misogynous genocide loving Christians and Muslims.

    Regards
    DL

     
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

     


    So even knowing the truth of your genocidal god, moral men will still reject his evil .

    Why are your morals so much lower?

    That is 1 for those with a decent moral sense and 0 for homophobic and misogynous genocide loving Christians and Muslims.

    Regards
    DL

     
    Some people are too rebellious and stubborn to rightly fear.
    GnosticChristian
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 225 Pts   -   edited July 15
    TrueLove said:
    TrueLove said:

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

     


    So even knowing the truth of your genocidal god, moral men will still reject his evil .

    Why are your morals so much lower?

    That is 1 for those with a decent moral sense and 0 for homophobic and misogynous genocide loving Christians and Muslims.

    Regards
    DL

     
    Some people are too rebellious and stubborn to rightly fear.
    Again, you ignore what I put you pathetic piece of human garbage.

     Interesting that you bend the knee to so much evil and are controlled primarily by fear.

    Not surprising, given that there is no love there for you to bend the knee to.

    Feel proud to know you live in fear of an imaginary genocidal prick, and like your god, you hate women and gays.

    Regards
    DL

     
  • TrueLoveTrueLove 295 Pts   -  
    TrueLove said:
    TrueLove said:

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

     


    So even knowing the truth of your genocidal god, moral men will still reject his evil .

    Why are your morals so much lower?

    That is 1 for those with a decent moral sense and 0 for homophobic and misogynous genocide loving Christians and Muslims.

    Regards
    DL

     
    Some people are too rebellious and stubborn to rightly fear.
    Again, you ignore what I put you pathetic piece of human garbage.

     Interesting that you bend the knee to so much evil and are controlled primarily by fear.

    Not surprising, given that there is no love there for you to bend the knee to.

    Feel proud to know you live in fear of an imaginary genocidal prick, and like your god, you hate women and gays.

    Regards
    DL

     
    You are the one ignoring what I say.

    Just as the Bible says, you are too stubborn and rebellious and you follow your own imagination.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
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