Should Covid-19 Vaccines be Mandated?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Yes, absolutely ableist to reject covid-19 vaccines.

Yes, absolutely ableist to reject covid-19 vaccines. I am fully vaccinated! To not be vaccinated is really unfair to the immune compromised.

Not getting vaccinated is a form of colorblind racism too. Since Black people are more likely to have high risk jobs.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-racism-not-race-is-a-risk-factor-for-dying-of-covid-191/

Dee

@Dreamer


Ahh you joined my debate I thought you were an anti  vaxxer as  you've admitted you're  a rabd science denier already

It's " abelist " to reject the vaccine ? Where do you get this ridiculous terminology from?

Ahh right you're also a " racist " now if you don't vax , you really are nuts , I guess your solution as usual is jail everyone who disagrees with your lunacy
.

jack

Dee said:

Should Covid-19 Vaccines be Mandated?

Hello

When I was in boot camp, they made me line up to get 17 different vaccinations..  There was no escape..  They didn't ask my permission..  They just did it. 

Now, THAT'S a mandate.

But, SAYING there's a mandate without enforcement, isn't a mandate at all..  It's a good idea.  Now, I heard about mandates...  I even read about them..  But, I didn't see the mandate cops forcing people to line up and get vaccinated.  And, nobody ever asked me if I was vaccinated.

Now, I suppose there are employers who enforce their own mandates, but those aren't mandates.  They're company policy.

excon

PS:  Ok you can call me a name now.

Bwa ha ha ha ha

anarchist100

No, I've said before personal autonomy is an essential element for a tolerable human existence, people need to be able to make their own life decisions, and one of the most important of these is what they put in their own body, now mind you, in a black plague situation it might be justified to use some coercion, because the alternative would lead to the death of over half the population, but that's not the case with Covid, the survival rate is no lower than 90% in most cases, and most people are sensible and will protect themselves and others, the deaths are more than worth it to preserve the autonomy of literally everyone.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I am a strong believer in vaccines. Vaccine arguable saved the most lives of any invention.

@Dee

Hi, Dee

I am by no means am I rabid science denier nor did I ever admit to being one currently. In the past, I went down a few rabbit holes chemtrails for instance, but I recovered. Yes, I get the occasional fact incorrect, but that is just part of being human. The important part is I recognize my mistakes apologize and update my belief.

Ableist is pretty standard terminology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism

Yes, if you don't vaxx without a valid medical exemption you are enforcing systemic racism.

Thank you for talking with me.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Your argument is abelist.

@anarchist100

Hi anachrist100,

There are people who are immune-compromised that are forced to live in terror of the covid-19 because healthy people refuse to vaccinate. To not vaccinate is objectively immoral.

"COVID-19 vaccination has substantially altered the course of the pandemic, saving tens of millions of lives globally."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00320-6/fulltext

This is a peer reviewed article, so take care before dismissing.

Thank you for debating with me.

MineSubCraftStarved

Argument Topic: Personal Choice

@Dee
We shouldn't it's a person's personal and religious right to do so.
I think oftentimes the argument that it will "save lives" is a rather flimsy one. It saves many lives to lower the speed limit to 4 mph. It also saves a large number of lives to actively monitor everyone's day-to-day routines and conversations, but such things are an abuse of basic human dignity.

If a person refuses a vaccine, it's his or her choice. Likewise, if I shoot myself in the foot, it's my choice. If I want to kill myself, hurt myself, or limit myself, it should be my choice.
We don't dictate that the Amish should use electricity since it's their choice, even though it would help them. Likewise, we don't dictate people use vaccines, although it helps them because it's their choice.

There is a fine line between the government overstepping and rational government control. And forcing something into someone's body crosses that boundary.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

We shouldn't it's a person's personal and religious right to do so.

How does religion come into it? What are religious rights regarding matters of global concern?


I think oftentimes the argument that it will "save lives" is a rather flimsy one.

Do you indeed? Well thankfully the  world's population is not American Repulicans like you and Trump who have blood on their hands.


 It saves many lives to lower the speed limit to 4 mph. It also saves a large number of lives to actively monitor everyone's day-to-day routines and conversations, but such things are an abuse of basic human dignity.

Two ridiculous analogies and typical swerve and deflect tactics

If a person refuses a vaccine, it's his or her choice

If you refused a vaccine in my country you could not go anywhere without a covid pass when restrictions lifted and of course the clowns who refused the vaccine wailed non stop about how their rights were being infringed upon, you and your type have zero right to go around insisting you have a right to mix with the aged and vulnerable without a vaccine that's the price you have to accept for your selfishness 

. Likewise, if I shoot myself in the foot, it's my choice. If I want to kill myself, hurt myself, or limit myself, it should be my choice.


Yes agreed but as usual you totally miss the point and I would grant you the right to shoot yourself but not to shoot me which is what you want as why should you have a " right" to infect others?


We don't dictate that the Amish should use electricity since it's their choice

But the Amish not using or using electricity does not affect me people like you who may have covid do affect people 

, even though it would help them. Likewise, we don't dictate people use vaccines, although it helps them because it's their choice.

Don't use them then but would you knowingly expect to interact with others including family knowing you may have it? If so why?

There is a fine line between the government overstepping and rational government control. And forcing something into someone's body crosses that boundary.

Well again we didn't force it  in my country but if you didn't have the vaccine  you could literally go nowhere without the covid pass so I would be fine with that letting the anti crowd take their well deserved medicine 

Incidentally an American woman  a Republican like you called me a" " online for vaxxing she told me her son and his friend were at a beach party in Florida which is what real American men did , a month later her son and his friend died and the s-pid said "at least he died a free man" I offered her zero sympathy and told her " your job was to raise your son in which you've failed miserably and not alone do you have his blood on your hands but the blood of many more by spreading lies and misinformation , so go live with that you sad , lonely "

You may say harsh but I'm afraid it's true.

Dee

@Dreamer

Ableist is pretty standard terminology.

No it's actually not , I've only once heard a super sensitive cupcake use it here , it's a term used by cupcakes in an attempt to deny people free speech 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism

Yes, if you don't vaxx without a valid medical exemption you are enforcing systemic racism.

Right everyone who doesn't vax including blacks are racist?  You really do make a  lot of truly i-iotic comments.

Everything  you don't agree with is to you "racist " you quoted your favorite author earlier who actually  treats blacks like  infants , grow up you big child.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: A system of racism and white supermacy can exist without racists.

@Dee

I never said Black people who don't vaccinate are racists. What I said is they are enforcing systematic racism. Only the historically dominant group, white people can be racist.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/racial-inequalities-in-covid-19-the-impact-on-black-communities#What-explains-the-disparities?-And-how-does-racism-play-into-it?-

Black people are 3x more likely to die from covid-19 according to the above article. Blood Oximeters are less accurate for Blacks. 

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

I never said Black people who don't vaccinate are racists. What I said is they are enforcing systematic racism. Only the historically dominant group, white people can be racist.

You might want to look up the definition of racism: it has to do with prejudice against the people of a particular race, regardless of what group is dominant.

For that matter, you are wrong: there are no dominant racial groups in the world, but if one is to be considered dominant, it would be the Asian which forms nearly a third of the world's population, followed by the Middle-Eastern, then the White and the Black very close to each other.

Let me further put you on the spot. Suppose a white man was to say, "I hate all black people", and a black man was to say, "I hate all white people". Do I understand it correctly that, from your point of view, the white man here is racist, but the black man is not?

I am curious just how deep your ideological rabbit hole goes. You already are making some of the most racist statements ever made on this website, but how much further do you have yet to go? Perhaps we will come to the point of considering murdering all white people a house cleaning?

Dee

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: A system of racism and white supermacy can exist without racists.


Argument topic: Dreamer again tries to screech " you're a racist to anyone who disagrees with her/him 

I never said Black people who don't vaccinate are racists

No but you clearly said white people were so you cannot have one without the other 

. What I said is they are enforcing systematic racism.

Who are "they" ? 

 Only the historically dominant group, white people can be racist.

Absolute nonsense racism means : prejudice and discrimination  by a person,community or people against,people  on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group,  your ignorance  is truly astonishing. 


https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/racial-inequalities-in-covid-19-the-impact-on-black-communities#What-explains-the-disparities?-And-how-does-racism-play-into-it?-

Black people are 3x more likely to die from covid-19 according to the above article. Blood Oximeters are less accurate for Blacks. 

 Quote  Persuaded Fallacy Fist Bump Irrelevant


Rubbish ,the latest findings disagree with your poorly researched piece of tripe., whites aren more likely to die of covid than blacks according to latest research ,so don't you just know that doesn't mean blacks are racist as in your ridiculous world view only whites can be be racist.

You truly are by any standard a truly ignorant uneducated snowflake, only yesterday you demonstrated the depths of your st-pidity by posting up a link to rational wiki thinking it supported your hypersensitive cupcake PC  views when in fact it openly mocked people like you who spend their waking days waiting  to burst out crying as their feelings were hurt 
.
You brand anyone who disagrees with you "racist" and all your views come from others who's views you dont even understand.
. 

Dee

@Dreamer

Wow! Every time I correct you the best you can do is run, you can get help if you wish I don't mind.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Only white people have white priviledge and they need to speak up to interrupt the white superamcist status quo.

@MayCaesar

"Do I understand it correctly that, from your point of view, the white man here is racist, but the black man is not?"

Correct. White people have powerful institutions backing them up. Just take the Christian church for instance. Enslaving white people used to take enslaved Black people right into church. People used Christian holy scriptures as justification for slavery.

As for the last question, no, not all all. White people need to use their white privilege to interrupt the white supremacist status quo. I need a break for at least a week from this website. Thanks for talking to me.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What is your source that white people are more likely to die of covid-19 than Blacks?

@Dee

I presented two sources, what's yours?

"COVID-19 puts the spotlight on an unexpected racial disparity in health care Evidence increasingly suggests that pulse oximeters, the little finger clips that measure blood oxygen, overestimate the blood oxygenation in Black patients." David Gorski 2022

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-puts-the-spotlight-on-an-unexpected-racial-disparity-in-health-care/

This is very relevant because we are still in the middle of a pandemic. We should be working together to halt the anti-vaxx movement that is a global threat to health.

On a side note, I am taking a break from debateisland, at least a week. Taking the time to fact check and hunt down high quality sources including the sciencebasedmedicine article I just linked to is exhausting. This should be my last post for a week. Was interesting talking to you.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"Do I understand it correctly that, from your point of view, the white man here is racist, but the black man is not?"

Correct. White people have powerful institutions backing them up. Just take the Christian church for instance. Enslaving white people used to take enslaved Black people right into church. People used Christian holy scriptures as justification for slavery.

As for the last question, no, not all all. White people need to use their white privilege to interrupt the white supremacist status quo. I need a break for at least a week from this website. Thanks for talking to me.

Well, thanks for ruining my dinner. This is about the most disgusting racist statement I have heard in my entire life. "I hate white people" is not a racist statement, you say, when uttered by a black person... I think I have seen everything in life now.

Ever heard of that guy, Martin Luther King? He would punch you in the face for what you just said, and I cannot say that, as a witness, I would testify against him.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

How does religion come into it? What are religious rights regarding matters of global concern?

Oftentimes, a person's religion forbids them to use vaccines or other modern medicines. Such as J*hovah's witnesses, I'm not saying they're fully right to reject the vaccine. I'm simply saying that if you force them, and other similar groups to take the vaccine, that is a violation of religious expression.

Two ridiculous analogies and typical swerve and deflect tactics

Demonstrate how the analogies are deflections of the broader logic behind vaccine mandates. They are demonstrations of the logic: "A policy is beneficial simply because it saves and prevents lives." Which is commonly applied to pro-mandate arguments.

But the Amish not using or using electricity does not affect me people like you who may have covid do affect people 

But when someone is infected from covid from an unvaccinated person, that is not their fault. It is analogous to forcing a gun into someone's hand and then forcing them to pull the trigger. They have literally 0 control over whether or not they will infect that person.
Furthermore, if we want to prevent the spread of covid, why don't we all force people to wear gasmasks, or hazmat suits as those would further limit the spread of covid? By your logic, if covid affects people, and thus we must limit its spread, shouldn't we institute such measures?

Dee

@Dreamer


Argument Topic: Dreamer calls anyone who  disagrees with him / her " racist"


You provided one source which is from a trash site with a one star rating and the other source totally disagreed with you and as usual you totally ignore  and keep polluting the site with your ridiculous anti science pieces..

So tell me using your reasoning that means blacks are racist? I'm starting to think youre insane 


Harvard T.Chan.

COVID death rate now higher in whites than in Blacks

October 21, 2022 ­– The COVID death rate among Black Americans—which was the highest in the U.S. for many months during the pandemic, due to health disparities—is now lower than that of white Americans.

As of mid-October 2021, the rate of death among whites eclipsed that of other groups, except for during the Omicron surge, according to data analyzed by the Washington Post.

According to an October 19 article in the Post, the switch is the result of longstanding issues of race and class that interacted with the physical and psychological toll of mass illness and death, social upheaval, public policies, and public opinion.

Nancy Krieger, professor of social epidemiology at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, was among experts quoted in the article. Krieger said that the shift in COVID death rates “has vastly different implications for public health interventions.” She added that officials must figure out how to connect with “communities who are ideologically opposed to the vaccine” while contending with “the cumulative impact of injustice” on communities of color.

Read the Washington Post article: Whites now more likely to die from covid than Blacks: Why the pandemic shifted

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved




You read but didn't address my many points as again you more or less ignore everything I said and go off on a new tack , please at lest try , here you go again......

@MineSubCraftStarved

We shouldn't it's a person's personal and religious right to do so.

How does religion come into it? What are religious rights regarding matters of global concern?


I think oftentimes the argument that it will "save lives" is a rather flimsy one.

Do you indeed? Well thankfully the  world's population is not American Repulicans like you and Trump who have blood on their hands.


 It saves many lives to lower the speed limit to 4 mph. It also saves a large number of lives to actively monitor everyone's day-to-day routines and conversations, but such things are an abuse of basic human dignity.

Two ridiculous analogies and typical swerve and deflect tactics

If a person refuses a vaccine, it's his or her choice

If you refused a vaccine in my country you could not go anywhere without a covid pass when restrictions lifted and of course the clowns who refused the vaccine wailed non stop about how their rights were being infringed upon, you and your type have zero right to go around insisting you have a right to mix with the aged and vulnerable without a vaccine that's the price you have to accept for your selfishness 

. Likewise, if I shoot myself in the foot, it's my choice. If I want to kill myself, hurt myself, or limit myself, it should be my choice.


Yes agreed but as usual you totally miss the point and I would grant you the right to shoot yourself but not to shoot me which is what you want as why should you have a " right" to infect others?


We don't dictate that the Amish should use electricity since it's their choice

But the Amish not using or using electricity does not affect me people like you who may have covid do affect people 

, even though it would help them. Likewise, we don't dictate people use vaccines, although it helps them because it's their choice.

Don't use them then but would you knowingly expect to interact with others including family knowing you may have it? If so why?

There is a fine line between the government overstepping and rational government control. And forcing something into someone's body crosses that boundary.

Well again we didn't force it  in my country but if you didn't have the vaccine  you could literally go nowhere without the covid pass so I would be fine with that letting the anti crowd take their well deserved medicine 

Incidentally an American woman  a Republican like you called me a" " online for vaxxing she told me her son and his friend were at a beach party in Florida which is what real American men did , a month later her son and his friend died and the s-pid said "at least he died a free man" I offered her zero sympathy and told her " your job was to raise your son in which you've failed miserably and not alone do you have his blood on your hands but the blood of many more by spreading lies and misinformation , so go live with that you sad , lonely "

You may say harsh but I'm afraid it's true.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

You read but didn't address my many points as again you more or less ignore everything I said and go off on a new tack , please at lest try , here you go again......

What points did I not address? Regardless, here are the arguments I made last time:

How does religion come into it? What are religious rights regarding matters of global concern?

Oftentimes, a person's religion forbids them to use vaccines or other modern medicines. Such as J*hovah's witnesses, I'm not saying they're fully right to reject the vaccine. I'm simply saying that if you force them, and other similar groups to take the vaccine, that is a violation of religious expression.

Two ridiculous analogies and typical swerve and deflect tactics

Demonstrate how the analogies are deflections of the broader logic behind vaccine mandates. They are demonstrations of the logic: "A policy is beneficial simply because it saves and prevents lives." Which is commonly applied to pro-mandate arguments.

But the Amish not using or using electricity does not affect me people like you who may have covid do affect people 

But when someone is infected from covid from an unvaccinated person, that is not their fault. It is analogous to forcing a gun into someone's hand and then forcing them to pull the trigger. They have literally 0 control over whether or not they will infect that person.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

If  you refused a vaccine in my country you could not go anywhere without a covid pass when restrictions lifted and of course those who refused the vaccine wailed non stop about how their rights were being infringed upon, you and your type have zero right to go around insisting you have a right to mix with the aged and vulnerable without a vaccine that's the price you have to accept for your selfishness 

Do you accept this if not why not? Do you feel you have a" right" to infect others.?




Well again we didn't force it  in my country but if you didn't have the vaccine  you could literally go nowhere without the covid pass so I would be fine with that letting the anti crowd take their well deserved medicine, what is your problem with this stance?

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"Do I understand it correctly that, from your point of view, the white man here is racist, but the black man is not?"

Correct. White people have powerful institutions backing them up. Just take the Christian church for instance. Enslaving white people used to take enslaved Black people right into church. People used Christian holy scriptures as justification for slavery.

As for the last question, no, not all all. White people need to use their white privilege to interrupt the white supremacist status quo. I need a break for at least a week from this website. Thanks for talking to me.

So, those that do not get vaccinated against not just covid but also flu are not only racist to mbame groups but they also discriminate against the elderly, and the immune-compromised, and so forth?

So, a whole group of people has subconsciously decided to commit their prejudice against some other groups just by not getting vaccinated from covid?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

you and your type have zero right to go around insisting you have a right to mix with the aged and vulnerable without a vaccine that's the price you have to accept for your selfishness 

If an elderly person consents to such a thing then it's their right. Similarly, it's the right of the retirement home to allow unvaccinated people in. Government should have no say in this business as such business is fundamentally consensual.

Do you accept this if not why not? Do you feel you have a" right" to infect others.?

You aren't infecting others, it's like someone placing a gun into your hand and forcing you to pull the trigger. You have no control over the extent of the infection of Covid to other individuals or who will be infected.
Furthermore, if we really see the spreading of viruses as a civil violation you imply. Why don't we take that same logic and mandate hazmat suits and gas masks to lower the risk of disease infections? After all? What right does anyone have to infect another person?

Well again we didn't force it in my country but if you didn't have the vaccine you could literally go nowhere without the covid pass so I would be fine with that letting the anti-crowd take their well-deserved medicine, what is your problem with this stance?

What Ireland does isn't the most relevant to the discussion. A vaccine pass is effectively the same as a vaccine mandate in the context of this discussion as both infringe upon the rights of the unvaccinated.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

If an elderly person consents to such a thing then it's their right. Similarly, it's the right of the retirement home to allow unvaccinated people in. Government should have no say in this business as such business is fundamentally consensual.

Right , so you honestly think an elderly person who I specifically said isx " vulnerable " would consent to such? Why would a person who was possibly carrying the virus even contemplate visiting such a person.?

Such a business has no right to allow people in who may infect patients and staff, you honestly believe hospitals have such a "right"?


 
You aren't infecting others

You are if you have it

, it's like someone placing a gun into your hand and forcing you to pull the trigger.

No it's not, did you take covid tests before visiting those you cared for?

You have no control over the extent of the infection of Covid to other individuals or who will be infected.

Stop talking utter nonsense do you know how a virus spreads?

Furthermore, if we really see the spreading of viruses as a civil violation you imply.

I didn't see it that way every civilised  country in the world did 

 Why don't we take that same logic and mandate hazmat suits and gas masks to lower the risk of disease infections? After all? What right does anyone have to infect another person?

Why what infections are killing as many as covid?  Remarkable that you're against abortion but for people having a " right" to infect others including women carrying a fetus

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

Such a business has no right to allow people in who may infect patients and staff, you honestly believe hospitals have such a "right"?

It's under the terms of the contract they sign between them and their tenants(IE. their choice).

No it's not, did you take covid tests before visiting those you cared for?

Yes, and if you test positive, then maybe it would be right to make it illegal for them to enter. But if an unvaccinated person goes into a retirement home and tests negative, I don't see why they should still be forced out regardless by the government.

Stop talking utter nonsense do you know how a virus spreads?

Do you order the virus that will be infected? Can you control it like you're shooting a gun? No? Then you can't control how or who the virus inside you infects other people.

I didn't see it that way every civilised  country in the world did 

This is why in every civilized country the police investigate covid(and other diseases) infections as a crime. Except whoops, they don't.

Why what infections are killing as many as covid?  Remarkable that you're against abortion but for people having a " right" to infect others including women carrying a fetus

This isn't relevant, again...
Why don't we take that same logic and mandate hazmat suits and gas masks to lower the risk of disease infections? After all? What right does anyone have to infect another person?
Why do we stop at vaccine mandates, why not mandate those things as well?

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

It's under the terms of the contract they sign between them and their tenants(IE. their choice)

Thankfully no facility for the aged and vulnerable here  have in their contracts ....a "right"to infect others 


Yes, and if you test positive, then maybe it would be right to make it illegal for them to enter. But if an unvaccinated person goes into a retirement home and tests negative, I don't see why they should still be forced out regardless by the government.

You couldn't go into a hospital or nursing home over here or in most countries during the height of the crisis do you not remember this?

Even when restrictions were loosened it was illegal to enter without a covid pass

Do you order the virus that will be infected?

are you on about?

 Can you control it like you're shooting a gun?

Yes stopping it's spread is controlling it.

 No? Then you can't control how or who the virus inside you infects other people

You obviously don't know how a virus spreads you sound exactly like your hero Trump who has blood on his hands by lying and downplaying the Covid virus

This is why in every civilized country the police investigate covid(and other diseases) infections as a crime

You 're not terribly bright are you? I never said having covid or a virus was a crime , what was a crime was breaking curfews and laws pertains to curfews

. Except whoops, they don't

Your strawman didn't work , not surprising really from a d- mmy who doesn't know if 1+ 1 = 2 or maybe 3



This isn't relevant, again...

It is, again ......you always do this when you cannot answer a question so do tell what infections are killing as many as covid at the moment?


Why don't we take that same logic and mandate hazmat suits and gas masks to lower the risk of disease infections? After all? What right does anyone have to infect another person?

Tell me the virus that's presently doing as much damage as covid.


Why do we stop at vaccine mandates, why not mandate those things as well?

What is doing as much damage as covid at the moment.?

I just bet you do your usual and run. BTW you keep telling everyone how much you care dor the unborn yet insist unvaccinated  people should have a "right " to infect at risk pregnant mothers , you know what that makes you?

ZeusAres42

I'm a little undecided here. I am just glad that most people and businesses eventually wizened up to what COVID is, what the vaccines are and how they work. 

I guess we could say it should be Mandatory in certain circles but maybe not nationwide. At least not now. The last time I checked COVID on the UK is being treated as flu.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

Even when restrictions were loosened it was illegal to enter without a covid pass

And that decision of covid passes should be left up to individual corporations and their shareholders/customers. As opposed to a government intervention.

I never said having covid or a virus was a crime , what was a crime was breaking curfews and laws pertains to curfews

We aren't talking about curfews.
So for clarification, you don't think spreading diseases is a crime?

It is, again ......you always do this when you cannot answer a question so do tell what infections are killing as many as covid at the moment?

Why do the affects of other diseases matter to a conversation regarding covid vaccine mandates? Regardless, if you adopt the position of pursuing vaccination for the sake of protection, then you must also support vaccine mandates and other similar protections for diseases besides Covid-19 as well.

What is doing as much damage as covid at the moment.?

That wasn't my point... Again, if we truly want to stop covid, or any other diseases, why do we stop at vaccine mandates? If the logic is that we must stop the spread of covid to save lives, then we must also take such measures as well.

I just bet you do your usual and run. BTW you keep telling everyone how much you care dor the unborn yet insist unvaccinated  people should have a "right " to infect at risk pregnant mothers , you know what that makes you?

The reliance of abusive ad hominem attacks and tu quoque fallacious statements don't address the argument at hand.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

And that decision of covid passes should be left up to individual corporations and their shareholders/customers. As opposed to a government intervention

No it shouldn't which is why it wasn't the case, thankfully nuts like you weren't running the show , just look at the damage you Trumpers did in the US with your campaigns of misinformation and lies.


We aren't talking about curfews.

Yes we are.


So for clarification, you don't think spreading diseases is a crime?

So for clarification people that disobeyed covid rules were committing a crime so worldwide the spreading of the virus was indeed a crime,were you asleep during the pandemic?


Why do the affects of other diseases matter to a conversation regarding covid vaccine mandates?

Why which diseases did I mention?

 Regardless, if you adopt the position of pursuing vaccination for the sake of protection, then you must also support vaccine mandates and other similar protections for diseases besides Covid-19 as well.

Yes which is why I've had 5 so far in my life , you're anti vaxxer , I guess you think praying is more effective?

That wasn't my point.

It destroyed you point , you're deflecting and dodging.......again.

.. Again, if we truly want to stop covid, or any other diseases, why do we stop at vaccine mandates?

So you don't want to stop disease.?


 If the logic is that we must stop the spread of covid to save lives, then we must also take such measures as well.

Why do you constantly ignore everything that challenges your poorly reasoned clap trap?

I asked you to name one virus  that has caused as much damage as covid in our  times?

Smallpox killed 300 million worldwide,vaccines eliminated it , you no doubt see that as a great evil?

How do you think we rid the world of Polio ? Rubella? Measles? Ebola?

You anti vaxxers all have blood on your hands.


The reliance of abusive ad hominem attacks and tu quoque fallacious statements don't address the argument at hand

It's not an Ad hominem to state your normal tactic is to run for the hills when challenged , let's re- visit , your first debate on here you claimed that 1+1= (maybe)  2 or (maybe)  3 , several people asked you to address this truly nonsensical statement you,of course fled.

You next debate regards Jews had you fleeing again as the state of Israel according to you does not actually get to decide who is a Jew but that decision is yours alone to decide,  even leaving you claiming your own mother is not a Jew even though she fits the criteria set by the state of Israel , you see how this is going? You consistently deny reality thinking your actual fantasies are such , you need mental health help.

Finally you really don't understand the fallacies you keep misunderstanding you also misunderstood the Tu Quoque fallacy as its not a fallacy to point out your totally inconsistent views , how can you be pro life if you insist a possible carrier of deadly virus has a "right " to infect others including pregnant women who's potential offspring you hypocritically claim you care for?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

Yes we are.

Should Covid-19 Vaccines be Mandated?

^This is the title of your debate. Vaccine mandates, not curfews, stay on topic.

so worldwide the spreading of the virus was indeed a crime,

So if spreading the virus is a crime, you should therefore criminally charge people for infecting others, right? I just want to understand your logic.

 you're anti vaxxer

Says who?

I asked you to name one virus  that has caused as much damage as covid in our  times?

And I keep asking back:
Why does it matter?
I don't care about other viruses really, we are talking about covid vaccine mandates. I simply pointed out how a similar logic can be applied to all diseases.
By ruling out covid as an exception to which only such measures can be applied is a bit illogical. This is because you're arbitrarily setting a bar from which you may base whether or not a disease is worth abuse of liberty by the government or not.

You next debate regards Jews had you fleeing again as the state of Israel according to you does not actually get to decide who is a Jew but that decision is yours alone to decide

We weren't even debating in that, regardless, nom refused to argue with me any further. So if anything he fled away.

even leaving you claiming your own mother is not a Jew even though she fits the criteria set by the state of Israel , you see how this is going? You consistently deny reality thinking your actual fantasies are such , you need mental health help.

The state of Israel also defines Jewishness as ancestry, and it being based on parentage:

The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his/her religion.

Regardless, this is irrelevant to the topic. And no, my mother is only Jewish by religion, she is not a Hebrew by ethnicity.

Finally you really don't understand the fallacies you keep misunderstanding you also misunderstood the Tu Quoque fallacy as its not a fallacy to point out your totally inconsistent views , how can you be pro life if you insist a possible carrier of deadly virus has a "right " to infect others including pregnant women who's potential offspring you hypocritically claim you care for?

It's fallacy because you're focusing on me as a person and your previous experiences with me, rather than my argument as a whole.


Pretty much...
If covid vaccines should be mandated in the interest of public safety. Then by that same logic, hazmat suits and gas masks should also be mandated to limit the spread of the virus, as such thing would save lives, like vaccine mandates.

Dee

^This is the title of your debate. Vaccine mandates, not curfews, stay on topic.

I am on topic it's you who keeps attempting to change tack.

So if spreading the virus is a crime, you should therefore criminally charge people for infecting others, right? I just want to understand your logic.

Stay on topic, people were charges and fined for violating the restrictions why is this so hard for you to comprehend?

Says who?

Me , why who else do you think is responding to you?

And I keep asking back:
Why does it matter?

Well it matters to most except anti vaxxers like you


I don't care about other viruses really, we are talking about covid vaccine mandates

Stop constantly mentioning them then. I know.


. I simply pointed out how a similar logic can be applied to all diseases.

You don't do "logic " you are still claiming 1+1 =2 or maybe 3 , right?


By ruling out covid as an exception to which only such measures can be applied is a bit illogical.

But I never said that again you're deflecting if a virus  comes along as severe as Covid the same measures  will be applied 

This is because you're arbitrarily setting a bar from which you may base whether or not a disease is worth abuse of liberty by the government or not.

Stop talking nonsense  I set no bar governments worldwide did i-diots like you and fellow Trumpsters feel you were "abused " by not being allowed to  potentially spread a virus.

We weren't even debating in that, regardless, nom refused to argue with me any further. So if anything he fled away.

Nonsense, you were put in your place by Nom and I , in fact you're now claiming the Israeli government doesn't define what a Jew is but confused Amercans do , you even said your own mother is not in fact a Jew right? 

When confronted with this you fled and refused to argue with me anymore , you did the same with your 1+1 =3 rubbish


The state of Israel also defines Jewishness as ancestry, and it being based on parentage:

So why did you say your mother is not a Jew as the state of Israel disagrees with you?

Regardless, this is irrelevant to the topic. And no, my mother is only Jewish by religion, she is not a Hebrew by ethnicity.

She's still a Jew and entitled to Jewish citizenship, you don't have to be a Hebrew by ethnicity to be a Jew, why are you still so upset by rhis?


It's fallacy because you're focusing on me as a person and your previous experiences with me, rather than my argument as a whole.

Nonsense I've exposed you for the hypocrite you are with your pretend pro life stance


Pretty much...
If covid vaccines should be mandated in the interest of public safety. Then by that same logic, hazmat suits and gas masks should also be mandated to limit the spread of the virus, as such thing would save lives, like vaccine mandates.

Nonsense, tell me a virus thats causing damage like Covid did?

 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

I am on topic it's you who keeps attempting to change tack.

Then don't talk about curfews when the subject is clearly regarding vaccine mandates.

Me , why who else do you think is responding to you?

You don't know me well enough to make such rash assumptions about my beliefs.

But I never said that again you're deflecting if a virus  comes along as severe as Covid the same measures  will be applied 

Who defines the level of severity a virus needs to have such measures enacted? And what level must be reached?

Stay on topic, people were charges and fined for violating the restrictions why is this so hard for you to comprehend?

For violating curfew, sure, but not for spreading the virus. In today's modern western legal system, no-one is prosecuted for the act of spreading the virus itself. I don't see people successfully suing others for allegedly spreading the virus to them.

When confronted with this you fled and refused to argue with me anymore 

Again, we didn't even debate in that forum. So I'm not sure what I ran away from...

She's still a Jew and entitled to Jewish citizenship, you don't have to be a Hebrew by ethnicity to be a Jew, why are you still so upset by rhis?

I already clarified semantical differences between a Jew and a Hebrew. If you wanna define a Jew as purely a religious thing, then sure. But to deny that there as an ethnicity associated with Judaism, namely Hebrews, is inaccurate.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I feel much better after taking a week break.

@Dee

Hi Dee,

The Washingtonpost is behind paywall, so I used this yahoo article which quotes the Washingtonpost.

https://news.yahoo.com/white-americans-now-dying-covid-061501746.html

I didn't realize that the number of whites dying from covid-19 recently surpassed the number of Blacks. Thank you for the information. Yet, your article proves my point. That at the beginning of the pandemic Blacks were dying at least 3x the rate of white due to racial health inequities. Which in turn was due to systemic and colorblind racism.

  "Republican areas, with lower vaccination rates, are also shunning the extremely effective antiviral Paxlovid, Leonhardt notes. "That mistake has had tragic consequences.""

Combine this with less masking and Trump supporters have turned into an authoritarian death cult. In this case the wounds are self-inflicted. There is a major difference between Blacks dying because of historical trauma, being forced by whites into red lined neighborhoods, overcrowded housing, and colorblind pulse oximeter tests. As opposed to whites shooting their-selves in the foot by not masking, vaccinating, nor taking antiviral Paxlovid.

We need vaccinate mandates, the fact that more whites are dying only masks the white supremacist status quo. Thank you for talking to me.

Dee

@Dreamer

It's pretty useless trying to have a serious debate with you as everything is down to race with you, also you seem to think that what happens in the US applies to the whole world.  Americans do this all the time.

You claimed blacks dying of Covid was down to racism then when the reverse was demonstrated to be the case you still claimed that's also to do with racism by whites, please stop talking.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I'm not sure what mbame is, but otherwise yes you summarize my position accurately.

@ZeusAres42

"So, those that do not get vaccinated against not just covid but also flu are not only racist to mbame groups but they also discriminate against the elderly, and the immune-compromised, and so forth?

So, a whole group of people has subconsciously decided to commit their prejudice against some other groups just by not getting vaccinated from covid?"

Yes, thank you for summarizing my argument. Prejudice is most powerful when it is subconscious. Don't forget classism, poor people have more asthma and diabetes due to subpar living conditions.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We both agree there should be vaccine mandates.

@Dee

I admire your effort to convince people to vaccinate.

Race is not everything there is classism for example, you seem to care a lot about the working class. Waiters and bus drivers for example are more exposed to the covid-19 and often live in subpar living conditions leading to more chronic disease. I am unsure why you are arguing with me when we both agree that we need vaccine mandates. 

https://skepchick.org/2021/09/a-brief-history-of-vaccine-mandates-and-how-to-do-it-right/

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I would like to debate you on vaccine mandates.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Hi, MineSubCraft Starved

I am having trouble following the conversation between you and Dee. Vaccines are simply amazing. I don't understand why you would be against vaccine mandates. Can you state your position? Thank you in advance.

Dee

@Dreamer

Race is not everything there is classism for example

Will you please stop constantly posting ridiculous links and attempting to lecture?

, you seem to care a lot about the working class.

Yes ,you don't your attitude to them regards climate change measures was let them cycle 16 miles to work a day the exercise will do them  good

 Waiters and bus drivers for example are more exposed to the covid-19 and often live in subpar living conditions leading to more chronic disease. I am unsure why you are arguing with me when we both agree that we need vaccine mandates. 

What I disagree with is you constantly lying and relating everything to race 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
I do agree that vaccines are generally good for an individual. However, forcing them on mass would only unnecessarily harm people and would be an abuse of civil privacy and dignity. This is my position

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I am glad we agree that vaccines are generally good for an individual. :)

@MineSubCraftStarved

Hmmmm, how would forcing them on mass unnecessarily harm people?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
It harms people because it is an infringement on the rights of the individual. If you mandate vaccines on mass then you must adopt a number of other similar covid-preventing policies, like forcing hazmat suits and gasmasks, as that would slow the spread of the virus. (If you go by the same logic)
I have yet to hear your side of the argument as well.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Are you up to date on all your vaccines?

Hi MineSubCraftStarved,

I want to find out more about your position before I make my full argument. I hope that is okay?:)

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Are you up to date on all your vaccines?

I am up to date on all vaccines that I should take for my safety, so yes.

I want to find out more about your position before I make my full argument. I hope that is okay?:)

The main premise of my claim is that vaccines are a violation of a person's own bodily, and often religious autonomy. A person should have the choice to have a vaccine or not, pure and simple.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

Well they obviously shouldnt and there seems to be a misconception on what rights are here.

For example, what about the elderly and vulnerable?
They have the same right as everyone else. To get a vaccine or not.  They can also choose to decide whether to go out in public.  It would be unlawful for me to go into their house without permission, but everyone has the same right to public spaces.  Making someone take preventative measures for someone else is not a right, it placing someone on a pedistool.

Additionally ive heard you dont have a right to infect someone else.
Well considering that is how disease spreads, a guarantee almost everyone on the planet is now a criminal.
Does everyone need a hazmat suit?  Do you have to monitor how everyone washes their hands?  Additionally everyone with the vaccine still spreads the virus.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: So you are to date on your vaccines and you agree that vaccines are beneficial. Yet you are anti-mandate?

@MineSubCraftStarved

Hmmm, I was just trying to figure out if you were an antivaxxer or just an anti-mandate activist. I don't know the correct questions to ask on how to scratch an anti-mandate activist to determine if they are an anti-vaxxer.

"I’ve long said that, if you scratch an “anti-mandate” activist, nine times out of ten (at least!) you’ll find an antivaxxer." David Gorski

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-does-antivaccine-really-mean-since-the-pandemic-hit/

I've already linked to the Skepchick video previously. I'll tell you my story, I was anti-vaxx, afraid of chemtrails, etc. I am an exiter, in the sense that I was a dogmatic anti-vaxxer in the past. Now I am very much pro vaccine and pro mandate.

I knew that being labeled as anti-vaxxer had social consequences. So I hid behind vaccine additives safety. I would say I am not anti-vaxx, I am anti-additive. Guilt is part of the reason I try to get people to take their vaccines and pass vaccine mandates.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: People with the vaccine spread the virus less.

@MichaelElpers

Vaccines give the immune system a head start. Meaning people with vaccine are infectious for less time.

Dee

@MichaelElpers


Well they obviously shouldnt and there seems to be a misconception on what rights are here.

Well obviously they were. Regards rights you mean your conception of rights is the correct one right? No doubt your conception of morality is the right one also?

For example, what about the elderly and vulnerable?
They have the same right as everyone else. To get a vaccine or not

Yes, and if they wished to exercise this right in my country they were denied access most everywhere when restrictions were eased as they had no valid covid pass

.  They can also choose to decide whether to go out in public.

Well no they couldn't over here certainly no one could 

  It would be unlawful for me to go into their house without permission, but everyone has the same right to public spaces. 

No they hadn't over here

Making someone take preventative measures for someone else is not a right, it placing someone on a pedistool.

On what reasonable would you refuse to take a vaccine?



Well considering that is how disease spreads, a guarantee almost everyone on the planet is now a criminal.

I had the vaccine I got covid and I was fine most people likewise , yet I know several who got covid before the vaccine was out and most suffered terribly , why do you view vaccines so negatively?


Does everyone need a hazmat suit?  Do you have to monitor how everyone washes their hands?  Additionally everyone with the vaccine still spreads the virus

The difference being  we all mostly have the vaccine and believe it or not it works , do you deny this?

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@ZeusAres42

"So, those that do not get vaccinated against not just covid but also flu are not only racist to mbame groups but they also discriminate against the elderly, and the immune-compromised, and so forth?

So, a whole group of people has subconsciously decided to commit their prejudice against some other groups just by not getting vaccinated from covid?"

Yes, thank you for summarizing my argument. Prejudice is most powerful when it is subconscious. Don't forget classism, poor people have more asthma and diabetes due to subpar living conditions.

You're actually serious? I didn't summarize your argument; I was asking questions about views. 

Your argument in summary actually looks like this:

"People should get vaccinated against COVID because if they don't it means they are racist."
  That is your argument summarized!

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

Notice a problem with this argument that people with this mindset run into repeatedly. The argument is: "If you do X, then you are Y". Notice how what follows after "then" is not a consequence of the action, but a simple label assignment.

Suppose I were to argue (which I have) that one's race should have no relevance in determining what laws apply to them and how. Then Dreamer would say, "If you do not account for racial disparities in your policies, then you are a colorblind racist". Okay, suppose I am a "colorblind racist": so what? It says absolutely nothing about the consequences of what I am proposing which is what is relevant, but assigns some weird label to me that has zero practical implications. "If you implement policy X, then I get to call you this nasty word" - is the essence of the argument.

This nonsense comes up all the time in these discussions.

- I believe that the minimum wage should not be increased.
- Oh, you just hate the poor!

- I believe that the minimum wage should be increased.
- Oh, you are just a filthy socialist!

Lines of text that do not mean anything in practice.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Correct, that is an accurate summary of my argument.

@ZeusAres42

We need race conscious behavior not colorblind. The inaccurate pulse oximeters for Black people would be reason alone enough for this conclusion. American Indians are vulnerable to viruses. That' means anyone who doesn't get their flu shot without a medical reason is racist against American Indians.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/resource-center/freeresources/graphics/aian.htm

Why do you think there is so many white supremacist anti-vaxxers?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-supremacists-like-nick-fuentes-are-going-all-in-on-anti-vaxxer-rallies