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Indoctrination as a method to inculcate unquestioning devotion

Debate Information

I believe Christianity employs indoctrination as a method to inculcate unquestioning devotion. I feel there is strong evidence that indoctrination is a system of abuse. This practice causes psychological and emotional damage to the victim. The abuse manifests in different forms such as identity loss, guilt syndrome, stygiophobia, death anxiety, sexual repression, compulsivity, and self blame. Victims actively and unknowingly participate in their own abuse. These abuses have deleterious long term impacts for the victim and can be correlated to higher levels of depression, anxiety, self deception, denial, somatic concerns, and dissociative disorders.
Indoctrination: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle.
Some mechanisms for indoctrination using in-group dynamics include pressure, coercion, manipulation, and control. Analytical approaches toward indoctrination implicitly suggest an inherent immoral process. So why is there a need for indoctrination? The goal is personal, emotional, and psychological dependence on the in-group for the furtherance of the in-groups objectives. The indoctrination process effectively detaches the victim from active critical thinking, reduces self identity, and alters the individuals perception of out-group values in favor of in-group prejudices and biases. Once total submission to the group and the imposition of absolute authority is achieved the inculcation of unquestioning belief is completed. The victims ability for reality based value judgements outside of the in-groups partisanship is greatly reduced. At this point doctrine becomes a self contained regime within the victim for the purpose of the victims continued self deception and for perpetuating the in-groups agenda. 

SwolliwxlJ_dolphin_473JoesephFactfinderpolytheistwitch



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  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 453 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Yep, that's how it works.
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -  
    I agree that indoctrination is a form of abuse ,parents let their children know from an early age that they are damaged goods  as in sinners and if they don't accept an unproven so called  supernatural entity as their saviour they will roast for eternity in Hell, that's mental abuse.

    In the future mankind will look to the past and wonder how we approved and encouraged parents to mentally abuse and terrify children with these ridiculous tall tales.

    The whole process of indoctrination is reliant on ensnaring it's victims as young as possible , if children were not introduced to religious thinking till they were of an age where they could reason I believe they would reject religions for the obvious irrational rubbish and nonsense they are, that's why indoctrination is so successful it needs to get them young to form  unquestioning sheeple to work.

    Jesus correctly labelled his followers,  " the flock " " sheep" a very apt label indeed
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    Sigh.  This is laughable as so many atheists believe that the universe came from nothing and never question how that could be true.  One only has to look over this very site and see that time and time again, as atheists make rash claims about the Bible and their false claims are addressed by people of faith, that atheists are guilty of indoctrination and fail to investigate either their own beliefs or the beliefs of others.  

    I have pointed this out numerous times - there are at least 10 miracle level problems (meaning that the odds of it happening are infinitesimally small - less than 1 in 10 to the 50th power).  with chemical evolution.  Yet, atheists will ignore the problems and just say it is a reality, when the evidence strongly suggests it is unlikely to have occurred naturally.  From Jules favorite AI:  

    Based on the search results and additional information, there are several major technical problems with abiogenesis and chemical evolution that scientists have struggled to explain:

    1. Formation of nucleotides and amino acids:
    - Even in hypothetical reducing atmospheres, the spontaneous formation of these compounds faces significant hurdles.
    - Experiments using powerful lasers to simulate asteroid impacts produced only trace amounts of nucleobases, barely detectable[4].

    2. Chirality problem:
    - Life uses only left-handed amino acids and right-handed sugars (homochirality).
    - Explaining how this homochirality emerged spontaneously is a major challenge[1][2].
    - The energy difference between chiral forms is too small to account for the exclusive use of one form in biological molecules[3].

    3. Polymerization in water:
    - Forming long polymer chains like proteins and nucleic acids in water is thermodynamically unfavorable, as it requires dehydration synthesis[2].
    - This creates a paradox, as water is essential for life but inhibits the formation of key biological molecules[4].

    4. RNA and DNA formation:
    - The spontaneous formation and self-replication of RNA in the "RNA world" hypothesis remains difficult to explain[2].
    - The transition from an RNA-based system to the DNA/protein system used by all current life forms is another significant hurdle[2].

    5. Concentration problem:
    - Dilute organic compounds in a primordial ocean would need to become highly concentrated, but no feasible natural mechanism has been identified[2].

    6. Oxygen presence:
    - Geological evidence suggests Earth's atmosphere has always contained oxygen, which would inhibit the formation of organic molecules.
    - Theories often require a reducing atmosphere, contradicting this evidence[4].

    7. Stability of produced compounds:
    - Even when simple organic molecules are produced in lab experiments, they tend to break down quickly under the same conditions[2].

    These problems highlight the complexity of abiogenesis and the significant challenges scientists face in explaining the origin of life through purely naturalistic processes. The combination of these issues makes it extremely difficult to propose a coherent and plausible scenario for the spontaneous origin of life.

    Citations:
    [8] https://evolutionnews.org/2012/12/top_five_probl/

    It just seems more likely that if you need 10 miracles then you need a God, but atheists indoctrination will not consider that option, even though it is much more logical and plausible.  From UNC:

    Biologists currently estimate that the smallest life form as we know it would have needed about 256 genes. (See Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Volume 93, Number 19, pp. 10268-10273 at http://journals.at-home.com/get_doc/1854083/8551). A gene is typically 1000 or more base pairs long, and there is some space in between, so 256 genes would amount to about 300,000 bases of DNA. The deoxyribose in the DNA ``backbone'' determines the direction in which it will spiral. Since organic molecules can be generated in both forms, the chance of obtaining all one form or another in 300,000 bases is one in two to the 300,000 power. This is about one in 10 to the 90,000 power. It seems to be necessary for life that all of these bases spiral in the same direction. Now, if we imagine many, many DNA molecules being formed in the early history of the earth, we might have say 10 100 molecules altogether (which is really much too high). But even this would make the probability of getting one DNA molecule right about one in 10 to the 89,900 power, still essentially zero. And we are not even considering what proteins the DNA generates, or how the rest of the cell structure would get put together! So the real probability would be fantastically small.

    Now not everybody is tenured math professor material, so let me make a comparison.  There are approximately 1 in 10^87 atoms in the universe. The number 1 in 10^88 power would be 10 times bigger. Yet the odds of a relatively short functional randomly forming DNA strand happening naturally are 1 in 10^90000 power.  Even an atheist should recognize that is a very improbable number to think would have happened accidently - yet that is just one miracle level problem with chemical evolution.  Atheists indoctrination brush such challenges off and ignore them.

  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

     This is laughable as so many atheists believe that the universe came from nothing and never question how that could be true. 

    Just have to lie don't you? Can't post without a strawman cause the truth of the op causes doubt and that means hell for you? For the millionth time atheism doesn't make positive blind faith assertions, that is theism's way of operating. Scientist HAVE questioned how something can come from nothing and that's how they discovered the emptiness of space where nothing is visible doesn't mean "nothing" is there. As they realized they can't detect anything itself directly but they can detect the effects of what they commonly refer to as 'dark matter'. This observance is called "gravitational lensing".

    These lensed images also act as probes of the matter distribution in the galaxy cluster. The results indicate that most of the matter in a galaxy cluster is not in the visible galaxies or hot gas around them and does not emit light, and is thus called dark matter. The distribution of lensed images reflects the distribution of all matter, both visible and dark. Hubble’s images of gravitational lensing have been used to create maps of dark matter in galaxy clusters.  https://hubblesite.org/contents/articles/gravitational-lensing
    Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -   edited October 19
    @just_sayin

    is laughable as so many atheists believe that the universe came from nothing and never question how that could be true.

    Really? Why don't you address them then?



      One only has to look over this very site and see that time and time again, as atheists make rash claims about the Bible and their false claims are addressed by people of faith,

    You mean like the 6 questions I've repeatedly asked you about your beliefs that you refuse to address?


    that atheists are guilty of indoctrination and fail to investigate either their own beliefs or the beliefs of others.  

    What belief of mine have I not addressed ? And I've investigated the beliefs of others and questioned them but like you they run.
    Factfinderjust_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

     This is laughable as so many atheists believe that the universe came from nothing and never question how that could be true. 

    Just have to lie don't you? Can't post without a strawman cause the truth of the op causes doubt and that means hell for you? For the millionth time atheism doesn't make positive blind faith assertions, that is theism's way of operating. Scientist HAVE questioned how something can come from nothing and that's how they discovered the emptiness of space where nothing is visible doesn't mean "nothing" is there. As they realized they can't detect anything itself directly but they can detect the effects of what they commonly refer to as 'dark matter'. This observance is called "gravitational lensing".

    These lensed images also act as probes of the matter distribution in the galaxy cluster. The results indicate that most of the matter in a galaxy cluster is not in the visible galaxies or hot gas around them and does not emit light, and is thus called dark matter. The distribution of lensed images reflects the distribution of all matter, both visible and dark. Hubble’s images of gravitational lensing have been used to create maps of dark matter in galaxy clusters.  https://hubblesite.org/contents/articles/gravitational-lensing
    According to big bang cosmology, there was no space for dark matter to fit in.  How much dark matter can you fit in zero space, @FactFinder?  You are appealing to dark matter (why not dark energy?) which not a single experiment has ever observed a single dark matter particle.  You are correct most scientists believe in dark matter, but you haven't explained how dark matter solves the issue of a universe from nothing.  Yet you believe it in faith cough*** indoctrination ***cough.
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -   edited October 19
    @brak ; What you "believe" and what is reality are obviously two-different things. Though many can be "indoctrinated" into a cult or a religion, it is NOT possible to be indoctrinated into true Christianity as true Christianity is an intimate, abiding, personal, relationship with our Creator by faith. Genuine, Life-Giving, Faith is beyond "indoctrination"...it is not possible to "indoctrinate" Christian faith and Christian faith cannot be taught, coerced, manipulated, but Christian faith is volitional trusting-believing with a sincere heart that what has been provided by the Holy Spirit in the Canon of Scripture is true and that same Christian faith believes that our Creator will do exactly as He has promised. Christian Faith cannot be achieved, internalized or maintained through coercion or deception...faith in Jesus as Messiah must be internally genuine in order to ingratiate one's self with our Creator and thereby establish New Covenant relationship with Him and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit as Guarantor of New Covenant promise (Ephesians 1:13-14; Hebrews 11:6).

    On the other hand, 

    The false "faith" of the atheist, secular humanist, is the product of demonic deception as it's the product of Satan, false teaching via Marxist education/indoctrination; generally, more often than not...atheism is a product of Darwinian Evolution forced upon the naive in public school settings. Atheism, once ingrained in the heart of the deceived, the arrogant, the proud, the narcissist, is likened to a metastasizing malignancy as it eats away at the soul and decimates the conscience and ultimately leads to antisocial, perverse, behaviors that destroy mind, body, soul, in Hell. It is the false faith of the atheist that comprises the "many" in Jesus' warning...

    The Narrow and Wide Gates

    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14




     

      
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6665 Pts   -   edited October 20
    As I see it, there are two decision-making modes: personal and collective. When you are engaged in the personal mode, then the sole arbiter of your choices is you: no one else's opinion matters. In the collective mode, on the other hand, your choices are assessed based on how well they conform to someone else's expectations. The personal mode is the "hardcore" mode, it is the mode of bold and courageous people taking massive risks and living their lives to the fullest. The collective mode is the "softcore" mode, for those who value safety and comfort above happiness and adventure.

    Massive movements like Christianity or Communism are the collectivist choice. Free people do not accept supremacy of anything or anyone over them: they live their lives the way they believe is right and accept full consequences of doing so. And that is precisely what Christianity and Communism vilify: when following these ideologies, you live for someone or something else, and your life is worth nothing unless it is sacrificed for something "greater" than you, pitiful worm. To become something more than a worm in a dirt - which your selected authority will tell you you are by default - you have to humiliate yourself and subject yourself to someone else's will daily.

    Nothing is more important than your life. Anyone who tells you otherwise is out to take advantage of you somehow. Do not listen to them, nor do listen to me. Listen only to yourself.
  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 453 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Just saying just-sayin

    @just_sayin

    Belief by definition is hypothetical.

    So anyone can propose anything and believe it.

    No actual proof necessary.

    Just compile an accompanying book of tales.

    And the gullible will love it.
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    According to big bang cosmology, there was no space for dark matter to fit in.  How much dark matter can you fit in zero space, @FactFinder?  You are appealing to dark matter (why not dark energy?) which not a single experiment has ever observed a single dark matter particle.  You are correct most scientists believe in dark matter, but you haven't explained how dark matter solves the issue of a universe from nothing.  Yet you believe it in faith cough*** indoctrination ***cough.

    Your response is yet to an appeal I did not make. I do not know how the universe started and have told you that so WHY LIE? You can't follow a conversation cause you're indoctrinated seeking others to be brainwashed as you have been. That is your agenda, not truths. And you can't even admit you're here to proselytize. You haven't explained how chanting "god did it" solves the issue of the universe comes from nothing either; since you're obviously the only one that believes the universe came from nothing as you're the only one who brings it up, however deceitful your motivations are. Remember your elf god hates those like you...

    Proverbs 616-19 ESV There are six things that the Lord hates seven that  are an abomination to Him haughty eyes a lying  wiirocku on Tumblr


  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -   edited October 20
    @Fredsnephew ; You don't know because you've never attempted to know Jesus by faith. You're like the patron who paid for a transatlantic cruise without knowledge of the benefits and went hungry, daily, as he observed the wealthy passengers eating lavish meals and drink till filled...on the last day of the cruise before entering port, the hungry man was standing outside a portal watching the passengers gorge themselves on incredible food and drink when a passerby inquired as to why the downtrodden man just stood there staring into the window???  

    The old man was hungry and said he wished he could have taken part in the daily feasts as he was absolutely miserable with the meager sustenance that he had brought along for the journey. The inquiring man advised the patron that the food and drink were part of the package deal...the food and drink were paid for with the ticket of passage but now it was the final hour of the cruise, port was in view...the kitchen had closed, the food was no longer available...it was too late. 

    You are this pathetic patron...life eternal is before you and you're too arrogant and too obstinate to pursue life in Jesus and find true joy, peace, sustenance, eternally. Atheism is a fools destiny.  


  • @RickeyHoltsclaw



    '

    MEMBERSHIP: PERTAINING TO THE RUNAWAY RICKEYHOLTSCLAW!

    Well, as explicitly seen since the poor RickeyHoltsclaw came back from his sabbatical of taking a short time off to try and regroup from being easily Bible Slapped Silly by Atheists that have forgotten more about the Bible than he will ever learn from it, the Christian Cultist Rickey cannot address my posts directed to him anymore!!!  

    I knew this day would eventually come in his behalf because it was to easy for me to make him this Religion Forum's number one BIBLE FOOL, as other Atheists as well did with ease! LOL!


    Here is a video of "RickeyHoltsclaw" since he cannot 
    address my posts anymore, but to only run away from them and hide
    and he wants to call himself a Christian?!  NOT!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU



    RUN RICKEY, RUN AWAY FROM ME BEING AN ATHEIST 
    THAT EASILY OWNS YOU AND YOUR CULTIST FAITH 
    OF CHRISTIANITY, PRAISE ZEUS!






    .
  • @RickeyHoltsclaw


    RickeyHoltsclaw, this Religion Forum's number one BIBLE FOOL!


    1. Rickey, you biblically LIE*D when you said you only need FAITH for Salvation, but I biblically corrected you again in where you need WORKS as well for Salvation in my post below that made you the Bible Dunce again!:

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/192028/#Comment_192028


    2. Rickey, you LIE*D” when you said that Jesus is the Messiah because I have easily shown you that Jesus WAS NOT THE MESSIAH, as explicitly shown in the post below!: 

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/193303/#Comment_193303


    3. Rickey, you “LIE*D” when you said life begins at conception, where I had to correct you again where Jesus showed that life begins with the “first breath,”where in essence, you called Jesus a LIA*R!!!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/192309/#Comment_192309


    Therefore RickeyHoltsclaw, in deducing your situation to the irreducible primary, YOU ARE AN HABITUAL LI*ER are as follows:, 

    THEREFORE, YOU ARE THE ONE GOING TO HELL UPON YOUR DEMISE AS JESUS’ INSPIRED WORDS STATE HEREWITH!:

    “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, AND ALL LIARS their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

    Rickey, I would suggest that you start wearing “asbestos suits” in case Jesus takes you earlier than you expect, do you understand this simple proposition?  You have too!!! LOL!










    .


  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -   edited October 21
    21CenturyIconoclast 

    Thank you for proving Rickey and me right - atheists throw out their talking points, but are unwilling to answer any questions asked of them.  You were asked over 3 months ago to answer just 2 questions:

    1)  How does a universe pop into existence from zero space?
    2) How does life pop into existence from non-life?

    You ran from these questions.  You are content to bomb debate after debate with your talking points and expect everyone to stop debating the topic to answer you, but this debate is about how indoctrination won't allow people to question their beliefs.  A major argument made by me is that atheists run from questions.  So thank you for proving Rickey and me right. 
  • 21CenturyIconoclast21CenturyIconoclast 454 Pts   -   edited October 22
    @just_sayin

    .


    JUST_LYING; ADDRESSING YOUR WIMPY IRRATIONAL POST SHOWN IN THE LINK HEREWITH: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/193494/#Comment_193494


    Since you didn’t show the chronological order of time periods in you wanting me to address your two questions, whereas YOU didn’t address my questions starting on MAY 9, TO JULY 30, 2024 as explicitly shown below that predated your questions by months!

    Therefore, to save your embarrassment AGAIN upon this topic, address MY QUESTIONS FIRST below before I will address your two questions! See how Logic 101 works, whoops, I'm sorry, since you are a pseudo-christian runaway from the Bible, you could never comprehend Logic 101!  Sorry. :(


    BEGIN:


    1. MAY 9, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180361/#Comment_180361

    2. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183759/#Comment_183759

    3. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183769/#Comment_183769

    4. JUNE 28, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184033/#Comment_184033

    5. JULY 1, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184265/#Comment_184265

    6. JUNE 10, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182423/#Comment_182423

    7. JUNE 10, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182424/#Comment_182424

    8. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183760/#Comment_183760

    9. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183761/#Comment_183761

    10. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183762/#Comment_183762

    11.JUNE 26, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183763/#Comment_183763

    12. JUNE 29, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184034/#Comment_184034

    13. JUNE 24, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183608/#Comment_183608

    14. AUGUST 3, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/187500/#Comment_187500 ;

    15. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183760/#Comment_183760

    16. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183761/#Comment_183761

    17. JUNE 26, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183762/#Comment_183762

    18. JUNE 26, 2024:  https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/183763/#Comment_183763

    19. JULY 30, 2024: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/187266/#Comment_187266


    Therefore, at your embarrassing expense AGAIN, of which you are used too as the links above adamantly show, you can “Whistle Dixie until the cows come home” before I will address your post in the following link below dated October 21, 2024 2024, until you address EVERY ONE of my 19 posts FIRST as shown above that you are “SHEEPISHLY AND COWARDLY” running away from since  May 9, 2024!!!!!!  LOL!!!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/193494/#Comment_193494



    .

  • @RickeyHoltsclaw@just_sayin  



    .
    RICKEYHOLTSCLAW
    has to run away from my direct post to him shown in the link below where it shows that Rickey will be Hell Bound upon his earthly demise!  Praise Jesus' revenge upon Rickey as a blatant LIA*R!
    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/193494/#Comment_193494

    JUST_LYING is also running away from a post of mine, where I guess he can't find his "Big Boy Pants" to address it in the link below:
    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/193485/#Comment_193485

    The coined name of Rickey and Just_LYING being "The Dynamic Duo of Bible Stoopidity" surely rings true!  LOL!




    .


  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @21CenturyIconoclast
    When will you answer the questions you were asked?  Why do you continue to run away?

    1) How did a universe pop into existence from zero space?
    2) How did life pop into existence from non-life?

  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    1) How did a universe pop into existence from zero space?

    When did you establish it did?

    2) How did life pop into existence from non-life?

    When did you establish it did? Unprovable fairytale elf god myths with magical powers to circumvent reality don't count. No arbitrary claims about the unknow. Go...
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    1) How did a universe pop into existence from zero space?

    When did you establish it did?

    2) How did life pop into existence from non-life?

    When did you establish it did? Unprovable fairytale elf god myths with magical powers to circumvent reality don't count. No arbitrary claims about the unknow. Go...
    1) Why Deacon, just today you told me you thought the universe was just shy of 14 billion years old - that's due to big bang cosmology which claims the universe came from near zero space (10 to -35 plank space).  Did you not?  Science established that fact for you.

    2) Are you saying that when the universe popped into existence, life already existed in the universe that didn't exist until it popped into existence?  Sorry Deacon, my brain works by logic, not whatever yours is working on.
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    1) Why Deacon, just today you told me you thought the universe was just shy of 14 billion years old - that's due to big bang cosmology which claims the universe came from near zero space (10 to -35 plank space).  Did you not?  Science established that fact for you.

    You know I never said I was a deacon, and I told you that. Is it Christian doctrine to ignore truth? No, I didn't tell you that. You said, "I am fine with saying that the universe is roughly 14 billion years old" and I said "me too."  And I am fine saying that; but that doesn't in anyway imply I know or have enough knowledge or authority to claim the universe came from nothing, big bang theory or not. All aspects are still under investigation. In your question to @21CenturyIconoclast you do assume the universe came from nothing in your phrasing of the question, that's on you to prove and not me or him.

    2) Are you saying that when the universe popped into existence, life already existed in the universe that didn't exist until it popped into existence?  Sorry Deacon, my brain works by logic, not whatever yours is working on.

    No, I'm not saying the universe "popped" into existence. You're the only one who has said that. And you're the only one setting up strawmen and then debating yourself.
    Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -  
    @Factfinder


    No debate is possible with Just Lying  as that's exactly his strategy every time as in claim his opponent said something they never said and attack that , pretty sad really but expected as goddists have not one decent argument between them.
    Factfinder21CenturyIconoclast
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @Factfinder
    You know I never said I was a deacon,

    Deacon, you never said you weren't.  Your free will Baptist church may have had another name for them like elders or board members.  If you weren't something like a Deacon/Elder/Board member then just say that.

    In your question to @21CenturyIconoclast you do assume the universe came from nothing in your phrasing of the question, that's on you to prove and not me or him.

    That is indeed what Big Bang Cosmology argues.  The Big Bang was not an explosion in pre-existing space, but rather an expansion of space itself. As one source states: "Rather, physicists believe the Big Bang created and stretched space itself, expanding the universe."  There was no space pre-Big Bang.

    Now, some cosmologists are more nuanced, and will argue that in order to avoid the singularity, that they can only claim that the universe goes back to the size of plank length - that's because the math goes wonky below that size.  However, with the big bang, matter and space are created.  




  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    Deacon, you never said you weren't.

    You never said you weren't gay. So what's your point?

    And I did correct you. The last time I corrected you was right before you typed this lie. Church board member, usher, minister of outreach, those things I said I was, never a deacon.  The big bang theory isn't settled in the absolute sense by any means but is the prominent model so far. But a lot of unanswered questions remain which you don't have. Like what was before the bang and what caused it. And with so much observed predictability that is in the universe supporting the big bang, what explains the unpredictability when seemingly the laws of physics break down? These are things being researched about the big bang. And of course there are other models which are being hypothesized as well. "God did it with special powers to subvert reality that need no explaining" is no answer or explanation. It is faith, not logic. 
    Joeseph
  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 453 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmm.

    @just_sayin @Factfinder

    Actually, in the absence of an audio reception device there would have been no bangs...Only waves. 
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin @Factfinder

    Actually, in the absence of an audio reception device there would have been no bangs...Only waves. 
    Yeah it never was presented as an audible event that I can remember. At least not what we normally think of a big bang like explosion to be in everyday life on earth. 
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