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When being god becomes difficult.

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Lets say two boxing opponents fighting at the same time, same night, live. Before they fight they pray to god for the win. At what point does god determine the winner here?. Does he shutdown both men. Does he favor one over the other?, or does he not intervene when two cross each other out. And how does this apply to us all?
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  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty

    >>Before they fight they pray to god for the win.

      I'm pretty sure that God is not our butler, only Pastafarians will pray like this to their wish granting flying Spaghetti Monster. If they knew anything about God they would be praying for His Will to be done and know what the concept of selflessness is all about. 

    >>At what point does god determine the winner here?

    Maybe the answer lies in the The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster by Bobby Henderson, I have not read it.

    >>And how does this apply to us all?

    Since no one is able to attack God on legitimate grounds, one has to twist and mangle the real story and make parodies that try to pretend to produce a humorously exaggerated imitation, but fail miserably when examined under scrutiny.


    "The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools deceives them." (Proverbs 14:8)
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRITreeMan
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1130 Pts   -   edited September 8
    @bjinthirty
    Does he favor one over the other?, or does he not intervene when two cross each other out. And how does this apply to us all?

    He fools each one into believing each will be the winner.

    In reality however, since God doesn't actually exist it is all in the minds of each boxer that he is going to win after praying to their respective imaginary friends. The loser of course will invariably think, "Oh well, that was God's will" and accept it because he is a deluded nit-wit. 

    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • JeanJean 76 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Who made the opening argument?

    I can tell who is writing responses in this debate but how can I tell who wrote the opening post?
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 8
    Argument Topic: Pray for his will to be done


    " I'm pretty sure that God is not our butler, only Pastafarians will pray like this to their wish granting flying Spaghetti Monster. If they knew anything about God they would be praying for His Will to be done and know what the concept of selflessness is all about. "

    Its a very strange idea to me that you think you need to pray to your omniscient, omnipotent god that it should do what it likes.
    It does what it likes without your prayer that it should.

    Could you elaborate on why you pray to your god for it's will to be done?
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRITreeMan
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1130 Pts   -  
    @Jean
    I can tell who is writing responses in this debate but how can I tell who wrote the opening post?

    You can tell by clicking on "reply".

    JeanBlastcat
  • Argument Topic: My God

    god never being difficult by reason of my god is great. My God can do everything.
    Blastcat
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>Could you elaborate on why you pray to your god for it's will to be done?

    I'll point to you to this article below, no need for me to reiterate.

    What does it mean to pray, “Thy will be done”? | GotQuestions.org
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 9
    Neopesdom said:
    @Blastcat

    >>Could you elaborate on why you pray to your god for it's will to be done?

    I'll point to you to this article below, no need for me to reiterate.

    What does it mean to pray, “Thy will be done”? | GotQuestions.org

    Here's a quote from that article:

    " Most simply, to pray, “Thy will be done,” is to ask God to do what He desires. "

    I'm not sure what the point of the prayer is... the god does not need reminding that it can do anything it wants to do. It's not only omnipotent, but it's also omniscient. It probably knows that it can do what it desires.
    ________________________

    To me, the prayer seems to be a declaration of subservience. Here is another quote from your article:

    " Praying, “Thy will be done,” acknowledges that God has more knowledge than we do and that we trust His way is best. And it is a commitment to actively work to further the execution of God’s will. "

    It's obvious to me that " Thy will be done" is a declaration of subservience, even though your article says that it's not. The god gives orders, does what it desires, and we are asked to accept anything that it does and do whatever it desires us to do. "I was just following military orders" is the Nuremberg defence, or in in this case, "I was just following God's orders", is the divine command theory.

    When someone says "thy will be done", it's the end of moral thinking. It's just following orders.
    We know that not all orders are moral. We saw that plain as day during the Nuremberg trials following WW2.














    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >> "I was just following God's orders", is the divine command theory.

        In order to love God, one has to first agree and embrace His teachings. Since we believe God is perfectly Loving, Holy, and Just, we know that only such things can come from God and we can be assured that every order is but a reflection of His Holy, Loving, and Just nature, the same things we accept and embrace. These orders are not followed simply because they are orders, but because we know that they are in harmony with our beliefs and values. It is because of our moral thinking that we accept God's orders, not because we don't think for ourselves.

       The divine command theory asserts that what is moral is determined by God's commands and that for a person to be moral he is to follow God's commands. This is simply not the case within Christianity. The nature of God is that He is perfectly moral, not whatever arbitrary commands He gives, because it's far from arbitrary. Morals are the principles that guide individual conduct within society, commands are not principles, they are based on them. We are driven by our conscience which is a cognitive process based on our individual moral philosophy or value system.

    Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: (1 Tim. 1:19)

    We cannot hold onto a good conscience if we are simply following orders we do not understand or embrace ourselves. Since we all fall short of perfection ourselves, our will that things conform to a Loving, Holy, and Just standard is only enforced by our prayer to God, since God has more knowledge than we do and that we trust His way is best in regards to perfecting our own morality, which only by God we can achieve. 

    “This food was offered to idols,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience (1 Cor. 10:28)

    God ordering us to live according to our conscience negates "Divine Command Theory".


      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 10

    " We cannot hold onto a good conscience if we are simply following orders we do not understand or embrace ourselves."

    Every day, some poor child dies of cancer. This is according to God's plan. You might believe that since God has to be good that these children die from cancer for a very good reason.. in fact, for a perfect reason.


    You seem to base your trust in the god on your trust in the god.
    You trust that kids die for a good, loving, perfect reason, and must rejoice at the very thought of all that goodness.

    But you don't know the reason, and you call all that death "Good".
    I don't see a child dying of cancer as a good. Neither do their parents, their doctors.

    Do as thou will in this case means " It if turns out that you have to kill my baby, that's fine, You can do whatever you like to my child, and tell me to do anything at all.. including murdering my child. That would be perfectly fine because you are so darn good."

    Amen

    TreeMan
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 91 Pts   -  
    Blastcat said:

    " We cannot hold onto a good conscience if we are simply following orders we do not understand or embrace ourselves."

    Every day, some poor child dies of cancer. This is according to God's plan. You might believe that since God has to be good that these children die from cancer for a very good reason.. in fact, for a perfect reason.


    You seem to base your trust in the god on your trust in the god.
    You trust that kids die for a good, loving, perfect reason, and must rejoice at the very thought of all that goodness.

    But you don't know the reason, and you call all that death "Good".
    I don't see a child dying of cancer as a good. Neither do their parents, their doctors.

    Do as thou will in this case means " It if turns out that you have to kill my baby, that's fine, You can do whatever you like to my child, and tell me to do anything at all.. including murdering my child. That would be perfectly fine because you are so darn good."

    Amen



    You’d be surprised how many children even adults had a undoubtedly chance of surviving but died at the hands of their unexperienced doctors. Doctors can murder people so be nice to them. 
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>Every day, some poor child dies of cancer. This is according to God's plan. 

    God's plan is for us to live eternally with Him without suffering and death. Micromanagement however is not God's way of dealing with humanity at this time. 

       In business management, micromanagement is a management style whereby a manager closely observes and/or controls and/or reminds the work of their subordinates or employees. Micromanagement is generally considered to have a negative connotation, mainly because it shows a lack of freedom in the workplace. -wiki

        I would describe God's management style as laissez-faire. In business managers "don’t micromanage or get too involved, they don’t give too much instruction or guidance. Instead laissez-faire leaders let their employees use their creativity, resources, and experience to help them meet their goals. This kind of leadership is very hands-off—managers trust their employees and are confident in their abilities. They give guidance and take responsibility where needed, but this leadership style means that subordinates and team members have the real lead." - What Is Laissez-Faire Leadership? (wgu.edu)

    If you think that is it God's plan for children to suffer then you are sadly mistaken. Mankind must take personal responsibility for the state of things in this world, passing the buck on to God is merely scapegoating God.

    Why are you scapegoating God? 

    For individuals, scapegoating is a psychological defense mechanism of denial through projecting responsibility and blame on others. It allows the perpetrator to eliminate negative feelings about him or herself and provides a sense of gratification. - Scapegoating | Beyond Intractability
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 11

    We could be free to make choices and not have to suffer so much.
    You must believe in a god who desires us to live forever without suffering and death causes us to have suffering and death.

    You must believe that the god has no choice but to make us suffer to be "free".

    You must also believe that the threat of hell doesn't affect your sense of freedom.
  • JeanJean 76 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Information

    @Swolliw Thank you.
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>We could be free to make choices and not have to suffer so much.

    We could of been free to follow God and avoid suffering altogether, but choices were made and consequences result. Without God suffering will continue in this world.

    >>
    You must believe in a god who desires us to live forever without suffering and death causes us to have suffering and death.

    People cause suffering and death, only God provides a remedy for suffering and death.

    >>You must also believe that the threat of hell doesn't affect your sense of freedom.

    Only the unrepentant sinner need fear punishment, like a criminal should fear prison.
    Blastcat
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • TreeManTreeMan 295 Pts   -  
    Neopesdom said:
    @bjinthirty

    >>Before they fight they pray to god for the win.

      I'm pretty sure that God is not our butler, only Pastafarians will pray like this to their wish granting flying Spaghetti Monster. If they knew anything about God they would be praying for His Will to be done and know what the concept of selflessness is all about. 

    >>At what point does god determine the winner here?

    Maybe the answer lies in the The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster by Bobby Henderson, I have not read it.

    >>And how does this apply to us all?

    Since no one is able to attack God on legitimate grounds, one has to twist and mangle the real story and make parodies that try to pretend to produce a humorously exaggerated imitation, but fail miserably when examined under scrutiny.


    "The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools deceives them." (Proverbs 14:8)
    Theres no point debating with you. You never see past your own ignorant shortcomings
    @Neopesdom
  • TreeManTreeMan 295 Pts   -  
    Heres a quote from Mark Twain, which you put in you 'signature'
    'Religion was invented when the first con-man met the first fool'
    @Neopesdom
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @TreeMan

    >>Religion was invented when the first con-man met the first fool'

    The Bible says "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:27)

    This "religion" you are talking about is a complete antithesis to Biblical Christianity. I agree that this "religion" you are referencing is a complete fraud. This first con-man was an atheist and started to use superstitious people for then own financial and/or sexual well being. You however are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You think that this display you see in the world before you is coming from God, but in reality is coming from people who have corrupted His teachings added things like clericalism, ritualism, tradition, and what not in order befuddle and confuse people and it seems to of worked on you quite well.
    TreeMan
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    Neopesdom said:
    @Blastcat

    >>We could be free to make choices and not have to suffer so much.

    We could of been free to follow God and avoid suffering altogether, but choices were made and consequences result. Without God suffering will continue in this world.

    Yes, but God could have created the world without suffering and still allowed us to make mistakes. I imagine that you believe your god is all powerful. If it wants something, it will have it. You might also believe that your god is all knowing, so if anyone can figure out a way to have a universe where there is no suffering, it can. If it truly desires to NOT have any suffering and it just cant make it happen, then it's not all knowing or it's not all powerful.

    We are more moral than your god:

    When my children made mistakes, I did not make them suffer. I loved my children. I would never allow them to suffer if i could help it. I did want them to obey me because I did have their best interest at heart. I ordered them to not play in the street until they were old enough to take care of the traffic, for example. If they disobeyed me, I simply reminded them and got them to safety. I did not hurt them for having a desire for more fun. Your god creates a world where there is needless suffering. My children never needed to suffer in order to follow my benevolent, loving orders. You say that without God, suffering will continue, but you must believe that without God there would be no suffering, since He created the world with suffering in it.

    Please answer this question:
    Would you allow your children to suffer if you could help it?
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    Neopesdom said:
    @Blastcat

    >>
    You must believe in a god who desires us to live forever without suffering and death causes us to have suffering and death.

    People cause suffering and death, only God provides a remedy for suffering and death.

    Your religious convictions don't make any sense.

    Your comment is not consistent with a god who creates the conditions for suffering in the first place. Your god can obviously make is so that there is no suffering. Apparently, Heaven is such a place. Nobody suffers in Heaven. God decided that we should suffer because it pleases him to do so.

    If your god can provide a remedy for suffering and death, he isn't. People really suffer and really die. Even people who believe what you do really suffer and really die.

    And we all know about people who work in the medical field, who actually provide real remedies for suffering and in some cases, even death ( for a while, they can't stop death completely yet ).

    When you talk about about a real remedy for suffering, we have some of it, but not by your god. For example, if I have a bad headache, I can take medication off the shelf and get relief in a few minutes. I don't have to suffer if I don't want to. Your god didn't provide that remedy. People provided that remedy. People created the vaccines for Covid. Not your god. Not any god.

    When you talk about a remedy for death, you are really talking about an after life for which there is as little evidence than as for your god. However, we have overwhelming evidence for medical science, and medical professionals.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    Neopesdom said:
    @Blastcat

    >>You must also believe that the threat of hell doesn't affect your sense of freedom.

    Only the unrepentant sinner need fear punishment, like a criminal should fear prison.

    You might believe that you judge yourself at those "Pearly Gates", but I think that's not really Biblical. So, you might not fear that prison, you might feel that you aren't a sinner, but you aren't the person doing the judging, and therefore, your feelings are completely irrelevant. It's the same for the criminal before the judge who feels that she is innocent. Her feelings don't matter. She is judged on the facts, not her feelings.

    1 Peter 4:5   
    " but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead."

    And if you think that you know the mind of your god, think again:

    Romans 11:34
    “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

    So, good luck with those feelings of being right with God if you have them.



  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  
    Neopesdom said:
    @Blastcat

    >>Could you elaborate on why you pray to your god for it's will to be done?

    I'll point to you to this article below, no need for me to reiterate.

    What does it mean to pray, “Thy will be done”? | GotQuestions.org

    I am replying to this article, which I found to be extremely interesting:

    " Most simply, to pray, “Thy will be done,” is to ask God to do what He desires. Of course, we’re praying to the God who said, “Let there be light,” and there was light (Genesis 1:3), so we know that His sovereign decree will be accomplished, whether or not we pray for it. "

    God will do whatever it likes, so, pray or not it's will shall be done. Praying for it's will to be done is completely redundant. It's like praying for rain when it's already raining. Praying for the rain to stop when it's already stopped. Waste of time, and quite ridiculous. But let's go on:
    _____________________

    " But there is another aspect of God’s will, which we call His “revealed” will or “preceptive” will. This is God’s “will” that He has revealed to us but that He does not force upon us. For example, it is God’s will that we speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15) and that we not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:18) or get drunk (Ephesians 5:18). When we pray, “Thy will be done,” we are asking God to increase righteousness in the world, to bring more people to repentance, and to further the cause of the kingdom of His Son. "

    This is just as silly as the first quote.
    We know that His sovereign decree will be accomplished, whether or not we pray for God to increase righteousness. . 
    _____________________

    " When we pray, “Thy will be done,” we acknowledge God’s right to rule. We do not pray, “My will be done”; we pray, “Thy will be done.” Asking that God’s will be done is a demonstration of our trust that He knows what is best. It is a statement of submission to God’s ways and His plans. We ask for our will to be conformed to His. "

    If you have will, and you desire something enough, in this you can very often get it done. Your prayer does not affect God's will one tiny bit. If the God is all knowing, you don't have to tell him that you want to obey. It knows already if you do or not, as it "knows your heart".

    If I can tell that you want to obey your god, I'm pretty sure that your omniscient god already knows it.
    I don't know why you would think you have to remind an all knowing god 
    ______________________


    " As a point of clarification, “Thy will be done” is not an impassive prayer of resignation. Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane was not passive or fatalistic in the least; He bared His heart before the Father and revealed His ultimate desire: for God’s will to be accomplished. Praying, “Thy will be done,” acknowledges that God has more knowledge than we do and that we trust His way is best. And it is a commitment to actively work to further the execution of God’s will."

    Desiring that someone else's will to be done is as passive as it gets. Praying "Thy will be done " or "Just go ahead and do what you will", is something that I would expect a masochist to say to a sadist before being tied up. The person praying that has given up his will in favour of the will of the other. Can't get more passive than that, Neopesdom.
    ____________________

    " Romans 12:1–2 says, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” Understanding who God is, we submit ourselves to Him and allow Him to transform us. The more we know God, the more readily our prayers will align with His will and we can truly pray, “Thy will be done.” We can approach God in confidence that “if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us” (1 John 5:14–15). "

    Can't get any more passive than that.
    _____________________

    By faith, we know that praying, “Thy will be done,” is the best thing we can ask for. “Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen” (Ephesians 3:20–21).

    And by reason, this makes no sense at all.
    But some people prefer faith because reason has a way of making a mockery of faith.
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 127 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Yes, but God could have created the world without suffering and still allowed us to make mistakes. 

    This is fallacious, because this assertion presupposes that mistakes cannot arise from free will, but this is always the case. As long as we can make mistakes, then suffering inherently exists in the world. You could pull the "omnipotence" card but fallacious scenarios are non-existent. Thus, this scenario you've presupposed cannot exist because it's lack of logical depth and contradictory nature. God knows all "things" but things refer to objects that have any real or conceptual framework thus why the omnipotence card doesn't work. 

    You might also believe that your god is all knowing, so if anyone can figure out a way to have a universe where there is no suffering, it can.

    Same applies here, I agree that God knows all "things" but fallacious objects cannot be categorically referred to as "things" Though this scenario you've presented, is something that can be possible. A world without suffering. From my perspective, a world without suffering already exists, and it's known as the heavens. I would like to ask you, if such world already exists, then would it be rational to make another world, of no suffering? That seems to have no objective. And scripture tell us, that we can achieve this world through faith and moral excellence. 

    So the question, should be why has God chosen to make Earth a place of suffering? I don't suppose that this was the objective of  Earth's creation, but rather suffering intrinsically exists in the world because of the conditions of mankind, such as free will. God's objective for the creation of the Earth, in Islam, is for Earth to be a testing ground. I'm sure you've heard this, but God is testing every single human being. Suffering does not exist to only cause despair, but it's a stepping stone to a closer truth. In our lowest times, is when we are closer to the Creator. 

    When my children made mistakes, I did not make them suffer

    If I transgress against God, am I made to suffer? No, not necessarily because I can be excused for such a action. This is why there is no immediate suffering when one sins, because our hearts are susceptible to repentance when we seek it. So this analogy is invalid, because God does not cause immediate suffering when we are erroneous, rather he asks us to seek forgiveness when we do so.

    This is exact approach a parent should have with a child, your child may make a mistake, but you need to teach them how to apologize for the actions they took. The typical atheist is the child that acts morally indecent, but does not apologize for that indecency. 

    You say that without God, suffering will continue, but you must believe that without God there would be no suffering, since He created the world with suffering in it.

    Again, suffering is not something you just "put" in the world. It's a inherent property of the world because of the essential nature of mankind. If there is no God, then metaphysical libertarianism is true, which means that we truly have free will independent from  anecdotal conditions. This means that we are no longer constricted by those conditions and we can now truly be held accountable for our actions. It seems to me, that as long as we have the ability to freely choose between available options, we can choose to cause suffering. What would be restricting us? 

    Would you allow your children to suffer if you could help it?

    Depends, since suffering is something everyone experiences. If I do everything in my willpower, to prevent my child from experiencing hardship and suffering, is that an efficient method of preparing them for the world, when I cannot be there for them? They'll need to learn how to tackle hardships and how to defend themselves. This is the mindset a guardian should have. I will certainly constrict  unnecessary suffering, but there are moments where we grow tremendously from painful experiences. Suffering is vital for evolution.

    My children never needed to suffer in order to follow my benevolent, loving orders

    This is not true. If a child is being continuously disobedient, you'll use some form of light suffering such as a timeout. It may not seem like it, but those children are utterly miserable when they are punished. Suffering is the gateway for growth. Evolution and human history is evidence of this. And like I stated before, it's when we experience these hardships that we are more prone to turning to God. 




    bjinthirty
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14

    Yes, but God could have created the world without suffering and still allowed us to make mistakes. 

    This is fallacious, because this assertion presupposes that mistakes cannot arise from free will, but this is always the case. As long as we can make mistakes, then suffering inherently exists in the world. You could pull the "omnipotence" card but fallacious scenarios are non-existent. Thus, this scenario you've presupposed cannot exist because it's lack of logical depth and contradictory nature. God knows all "things" but things refer to objects that have any real or conceptual framework thus why the omnipotence card doesn't work.
    Nope, I don't presuppose that mistakes cannot arise from free will. Look, Khasim, I believe that free will is an illusion. I don't think it's real, but I do make mistakes. We all make mistakes.

    Free will or not, we make mistakes.
    You might believe that a god created us, and if it did, it created us in such a way that we aren't perfect.

    If Adam and Eve would have been perfect, they would not have chosen to "sin". Choosing to sin is less perfect than choosing to not sin.

    I agree that as long as we can make mistakes, then suffering inherently exists in the world. But :

    1. God could have created us perfect, so that we never make mistakes.
    2. God could have have created a world in which there is NO suffering.
    3. God could have created a world in which we make mistakes and would use it's infinite power to protect us from any suffering anyway.

    You may not believe in a god that is infinite in power, benevolence, knowledge. and may have limited power to create a world where there is no suffering. I don't know what kind of a god you happen to believe in.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    From my perspective, a world without suffering already exists, and it's known as the heavens. I would like to ask you, if such world already exists, then would it be rational to make another world, of no suffering? That seems to have no objective. And scripture tell us, that we can achieve this world through faith and moral excellence.
    So, we both agree that such a god could create a world where no suffering exists. Great. You believe that an all powerful god is able to do that.

    I can't think of an objective either.
    If the God is perfect, it doesn't have to create anything.

    If it creates something, it means it was lacking it.
    Some people tell me that God created the world so that humans can adore it, love it and so on. Share the love kind of thing.

    A perfect god would not need to share love or anything else. it would be perfect just the way that it was. Any change implies that what came before was less than perfect.

    If someone is on the top of Mount Everest, there is no top to that. Maybe the guy can jump around? .. there is no north of the north pole. There is no degrees to perfection.

    And yes, scripture says a lot of things.
    I don't believe the scriptures.

    Unless there is a good reason to.
    You have not provided any reason to.

    So, I'm playing along for the sake of your argument, but I don't believe in any god or any heaven, sin, demons, and so on. To me, we are talking about fiction.

    The way you debate and your name makes me think you are talking about Allah. Is that a correct guess on my part?

    let me know what god you are talking about , it would help me understand where you are coming from better.

    cheers.


  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 127 Pts   -  
    Nope, I don't presuppose that mistakes cannot arise from free will. Look, Khasim, I believe that free will is an illusion. I don't think it's real, but I do make mistakes. We all make mistakes.

    Fallacious reasoning. If free will is an "illusion" and has no framework in reality, then we how can we act erroneously or make a mistake? If you don't have free will, then you cannot do or make anything. 

    The word "make" implies a choice, decision or action, and the very basis for our actions is our capacity to carry out available options, or our will. And unless you adhere to determinism, then this will is independent from anecdotal conditions.

    You might believe that a god created us, and if it did, it created us in such a way that we aren't perfect.

    Our perspectives of perfection are subjective. My opinion is that since we were created by a maximally perfect being, that we ourselves are perfect, but in comparative to more "good" things we may not seem perfect. 

    If Adam and Eve would have been perfect, they would not have chosen to "sin". Choosing to sin is less perfect than choosing to not sin.

    This is a conflict that Islam does not need to tackle, for the matter that our doctrine does not assert that Adam and Eve prior to the Fall were perfect. We say they were human, tempted by the serpent, and enacted the sin but were forgiven by God, thus why we reject the concept of original sin. 

    1. God could have created us perfect, so that we never make mistakes.

    Then God would necessarily need to eliminate free will, since free will is the capacity to freely choose between available options.  One of those options could lead to erroneous outcomes and ultimately suffering. We cannot think freely, as we could erroneously think of something that may not be. So now we are unintelligent beings that cannot do anything on our own will. Does this seem perfect? 

    2. God could have have created a world in which there is NO suffering.

    God already did so. And even further, the Creator shows us how to achieve this reality. But through this premise, we arrive at an implausible conclusion. If there is no suffering, then there cannot be free will. And if there is no free will, we are unintelligent beings unable to act, think or feel on our own. We are no longer "human" 

    3. God could have created a world in which we make mistakes and would use it's infinite power to protect us from any suffering anyway.

    This is fallacious, unnecessary and devoid of any objective. Suffering still exists, we just wouldn't be subject to it. This doesn't solve the conflict. This premise also constricts our free will, primarily because if I intentionally choose to cause someone to suffer, that ability is restricted by God's omnipotence. I can carry out the act, but the act has no effect whatsoever, which amounts that action to nothing. Our actions wouldn't be "actions" but inaction. Thus free will crumbles. 

    If God didn't want us to suffer, then why allow mistakes when you can get rid of the cause?

    @Blastcat









  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 127 Pts   -   edited September 14
    If it creates something, it means it was lacking it, Some people tell me that God created the world so that humans can adore it, love it and so on. Share the love kind of thing.

    I disagree. If God is the maximally perfect being, then He cannot lack anything, or else this divine property is incoherent.

    Sure that is a reason, though the primary reason behind Earth's creation is so that the Maker could test our resolve, faith and decency as a human race.

    A perfect god would not need to share love or anything else. it would be perfect just the way that it was. Any change implies that what came before was less than perfect.

    I agree that God is immutable, but I don't necessarily adhere to the notion that our creation was caused out of an act of love. There is a ulterior objective for the purpose of mankind. 

    You have not provided any reason to.

    In this day and age, scriptures comes second, and God comes first. We need to establish that the existence of God is a plausible inference before we can present scripture. I suggest that reading scripture with an open mind and heart, will give you the reason as to why you should follow it. 

    The way you debate and your name makes me think you are talking about Allah. Is that a correct guess on my part?

    Yup. Not many differences with the Abrahamic God, but there are some essential ones. But just for further clarification, I'm Muslim, so I worship Allah Almighty and follow his messenger, Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

    @Blastcat








  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    Fallacious reasoning. If free will is an "illusion" and has no framework in reality, then we how can we act erroneously or make a mistake? If you don't have free will, then you cannot do or make anything.
    We do make mistakes. I hope that you agree with that.
    I did not say that we don't have will, I just say that we don't will FREELY.

    We are predetermined to desire things.
    You can look it up, Khasim, the existence free will is debated in philosophy and more importantly, in science. There is no consensus yet. Think of it as string theory. There's very little evidence for free will even if it makes sense to so many.

    The word "make" implies a choice, decision or action, and the very basis for our actions is our capacity to carry out available options, or our will. And unless you adhere to determinism, then this will is independent from anecdotal conditions.

    Yes, I agree that we have choice and that we make decisions and make actions. I agree that we have will. I don't agree that we do so freely. Yes, I think that determinism makes more sense than free will.

    Our perspectives of perfection are subjective. My opinion is that since we were created by a maximally perfect being, that we ourselves are perfect, but in comparative to more "good" things we may not seem perfect.
    Ok, you think that I am perfect, yet you disagree with this perfect being... hmm.

    You say that you use the word "perfect" to mean comparatively perfect. Sorry, that's not how I understand the word. Perfection is a maximal state. To say that there is something "more" perfect to me doesn't make sense.

    I am perfect, or I'm not.
    This is a conflict that Islam does not need to tackle, for the matter that our doctrine does not assert that Adam and Eve prior to the Fall were perfect. We say they were human, tempted by the serpent, and enacted the sin but were forgiven by God, thus why we reject the concept of original sin.


    So you said that humans are perfect, and now you say that Adam and Eve were not perfect. I'm confused.

    1. God could have created us perfect, so that we never make mistakes.

    Then God would necessarily need to eliminate free will, since free will is the capacity to freely choose between available options.  One of those options could lead to erroneous outcomes and ultimately suffering. We cannot think freely, as we could erroneously think of something that may not be. So now we are unintelligent beings that cannot do anything on our own will. Does this seem perfect?

    Yes, I see a problem with a perfect being and free will. As I said before, I don't believe in free will. I can will things without doing so freely. Someone in jail can will to obey the orders of the jailer so that he doesn't get punished, for example. I would not call that a free choice.. I think the prisoner would much rather not obey the jailer.. but has no choice. The only choice is to obey or suffer more. I think that most rational people would choose to suffer less. That's because we don't like to suffer more.

    We are so designed that we don't like to suffer at all.. pain hurts.
    We didn't really have a choice about that.

    You ask does this seem perfect to a person who also doesn't believe that he is perfect. I don't expect a person can be perfect.

    2. God could have have created a world in which there is NO suffering.

    God already did so. And even further, the Creator shows us how to achieve this reality. But through this premise, we arrive at an implausible conclusion. If there is no suffering, then there cannot be free will. And if there is no free will, we are unintelligent beings unable to act, think or feel on our own. We are no longer "human"
    If God already created a world in which there is no suffering, it's surely not this one.

    You say that if there is no suffering, there cannot be free will. There is suffering in this world and I don't believe that you have demonstrated free will. You really believe in free will. But as you must know, your belief does not stand in for evidence.

    3. God could have created a world in which we make mistakes and would use it's infinite power to protect us from any suffering anyway.

    This is fallacious, unnecessary and devoid of any objective. Suffering still exists, we just wouldn't be subject to it. This doesn't solve the conflict. This premise also constricts our free will, primarily because if I intentionally choose to cause someone to suffer, that ability is restricted by God's omnipotence. I can carry out the act, but the act has no effect whatsoever, which amounts that action to nothing. Our actions wouldn't be "actions" but inaction. Thus free will crumbles. 

    If God didn't want us to suffer, then why allow mistakes when you can get rid of the cause?


    If suffering doesn't affect us, suffering doesn't exist for us. Then, I suppose it would exist for other beings on the planet. Like dogs..cats and so on. Ok, there can be suffering that we don't feel. I'd be ok with that.. too bad about the other animals who can feel pain though.

    If I were a god who could stop suffering for some of his creations.. I'd just go ahead and stop it for all of his creations who can feel pain, but that's just me.

    If the god doesn't allow anyone to suffer, you can't really cause someone to suffer, now can you?

    I don't know what you meant by " I can carry out the act, but the act has no effect whatsoever, which amounts that action to nothing. Our actions wouldn't be "actions" but inaction. Thus free will crumbles. "

    It would be nice if you would be so kind as to elaborate a bit.

    You ask me to speculate about God's intentions... ok.. God might like us to suffer and therefore, created us in such a way that we do. I don't just assume that this god is good. I see a world full of suffering, and you seem to believe that your god created it. So, if anyone has caused the conditions for my very own suffering, it's your god.

    I am not amused.
    But I can't even read people's minds, I can hardly be expected to read the mind of a god I don't even believe exists. I will let you speculate. You're the believer, after all.
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 127 Pts   -   edited September 14
    @Blastcat

    I find it intriguing that you're a determinist but an atheist. What anecdotal conditions do you believe constrict our freedom of choice?
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14

    You’d be surprised how many children even adults had a undoubtedly chance of surviving but died at the hands of their unexperienced doctors. Doctors can murder people so be nice to them. 
    Being nice to them isn't how they get experience. You would be surprised how many people don't trust doctors. But, hey, they have social media so they feel alright.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    @Blastcat

    I find it intriguing that you're a determinist but an atheist. What anecdotal conditions do you believe constrict our freedom of choice?

    Most critical thinking atheists don't believe in free will because we are skeptical by nature. We don't pay much attention to anecdotal evidence. Science is better.

    Just like the God Hypothesis, I don't believe in free will due to a total lack of evidence for it. There has been a little bit of evidence against, but it's not very spectacular. My skepticism is fuelled by everything else that we know about nature.

    In nature, things are determined.
    There's always a cause. Even theists say that nothing happens without a cause sometimes.

    Confirmation bias would make it extremely difficult for you to accept that free will is an illusion if you are too heavily invested in the idea that free will explains the problem that God has with evil and suffering in our world.

    I don't think you have an epistemic reason to believe in free will. I really suspect that you have a faith reason. which is no reason at all. I think you might agree that just because I like an idea or that I have faith that an idea is true it doesn't mean it's true.

    I'm a critical thinker.. i require evidence, not faith.
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>Praying for it's will to be done is completely redundant.

       Speaking of loving fellowships, parents already know what their child needs in order to survive, yet they still desire to have a relationship with that child. If the child is wise, they would want the will of their parents, who know best, to prevail in their upbringing. What a delight from the parent to hear their kids say “you know best”, such delight comes from the loving relationship they have. The parent will do whatever they will regardless of the child’s wishes, but that does not mean they do no want to hear them or do not have their best interests at heart. Likewise a husband and wife may know they love each other, but it is equally important that they verbalize this as well, it is far from redundant.

      I guess reiteration is in order, praying for God’s will to be done is an acknowledgment on our part that we are willing to surrender to God’s will rather than our own, is is an act of humility and worship. God will do whatever He likes within His nature as perfectly Loving, Holy and Just, even when we can’t see it, we know His ways our above ours in every respect and we place our trust in Him because He knows the best course to take and we do not. Scripture already tells us “for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him” (Luke 11:8), so why even pray at all, it on the surface it does seem redundant, but prayer is much more than simply verbalizing things God already knows. Like in a parent child relationship the child desperately needs the parents more due to their lack of knowledge, their vulnerability, the parent wants their children to be responsive and follow their will, for children to acknowledge and verbalize this to parents who already know is never redundant, it's part of the loving relationship that is shared between them.
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 91 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Yes, but God could have created the world without suffering and still allowed us to make mistakes. 

    This is fallacious, because this assertion presupposes that mistakes cannot arise from free will, but this is always the case. As long as we can make mistakes, then suffering inherently exists in the world. You could pull the "omnipotence" card but fallacious scenarios are non-existent. Thus, this scenario you've presupposed cannot exist because it's lack of logical depth and contradictory nature. God knows all "things" but things refer to objects that have any real or conceptual framework thus why the omnipotence card doesn't work. 

    You might also believe that your god is all knowing, so if anyone can figure out a way to have a universe where there is no suffering, it can.

    Same applies here, I agree that God knows all "things" but fallacious objects cannot be categorically referred to as "things" Though this scenario you've presented, is something that can be possible. A world without suffering. From my perspective, a world without suffering already exists, and it's known as the heavens. I would like to ask you, if such world already exists, then would it be rational to make another world, of no suffering? That seems to have no objective. And scripture tell us, that we can achieve this world through faith and moral excellence. 

    So the question, should be why has God chosen to make Earth a place of suffering? I don't suppose that this was the objective of  Earth's creation, but rather suffering intrinsically exists in the world because of the conditions of mankind, such as free will. God's objective for the creation of the Earth, in Islam, is for Earth to be a testing ground. I'm sure you've heard this, but God is testing every single human being. Suffering does not exist to only cause despair, but it's a stepping stone to a closer truth. In our lowest times, is when we are closer to the Creator. 

    When my children made mistakes, I did not make them suffer

    If I transgress against God, am I made to suffer? No, not necessarily because I can be excused for such a action. This is why there is no immediate suffering when one sins, because our hearts are susceptible to repentance when we seek it. So this analogy is invalid, because God does not cause immediate suffering when we are erroneous, rather he asks us to seek forgiveness when we do so.

    This is exact approach a parent should have with a child, your child may make a mistake, but you need to teach them how to apologize for the actions they took. The typical atheist is the child that acts morally indecent, but does not apologize for that indecency. 

    You say that without God, suffering will continue, but you must believe that without God there would be no suffering, since He created the world with suffering in it.

    Again, suffering is not something you just "put" in the world. It's a inherent property of the world because of the essential nature of mankind. If there is no God, then metaphysical libertarianism is true, which means that we truly have free will independent from  anecdotal conditions. This means that we are no longer constricted by those conditions and we can now truly be held accountable for our actions. It seems to me, that as long as we have the ability to freely choose between available options, we can choose to cause suffering. What would be restricting us? 

    Would you allow your children to suffer if you could help it?

    Depends, since suffering is something everyone experiences. If I do everything in my willpower, to prevent my child from experiencing hardship and suffering, is that an efficient method of preparing them for the world, when I cannot be there for them? They'll need to learn how to tackle hardships and how to defend themselves. This is the mindset a guardian should have. I will certainly constrict  unnecessary suffering, but there are moments where we grow tremendously from painful experiences. Suffering is vital for evolution.

    My children never needed to suffer in order to follow my benevolent, loving orders

    This is not true. If a child is being continuously disobedient, you'll use some form of light suffering such as a timeout. It may not seem like it, but those children are utterly miserable when they are punished. Suffering is the gateway for growth. Evolution and human history is evidence of this. And like I stated before, it's when we experience these hardships that we are more prone to turning to God. 




    Blastcat said:

    You’d be surprised how many children even adults had a undoubtedly chance of surviving but died at the hands of their unexperienced doctors. Doctors can murder people so be nice to them. 
    Being nice to them isn't how they get experience. You would be surprised how many people don't trust doctors. But, hey, they have social media so they feel alright.



    Interesting arguments. Very good points. However, as always. These common topics always go for the long run and end up back to where they started at the end. One thing most certain is that nothing just appears out of the blue without some sort of intelligence. Everything we know of and ever know of, was and always will be created. The way the universe is formed itself has proof of intelligence. The way galaxies are formed and how elements react to one another cannot be possible without some forn of intelligent meddling. Ever wonder why our DNA is missing one missing link we cannot find? or how geometry frequency and nature all revolve and simplified down to one thing. I agree with Khasim, very crucial points.



  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    Interesting arguments. Very good points. However, as always. These common topics always go for the long run and end up back to where they started at the end. One thing most certain is that nothing just appears out of the blue without some sort of intelligence. Everything we know of and ever know of, was and always will be created. The way the universe is formed itself has proof of intelligence. The way galaxies are formed and how elements react to one another cannot be possible without some forn of intelligent meddling. Ever wonder why our DNA is missing one missing link we cannot find? or how geometry frequency and nature all revolve and simplified down to one thing. I agree with Khasim, very crucial points.

    When I use the word "created" i do imply a creator. I will say things like "who created that wonderful piece of art?" and so on. By creator, I mean people. I know that artists actually create wonderful pieces of art. I have evidence that human creators actually exist. Video evidence of these artists doing their art. 

    Do you have evidence of a creator other than a human being?




  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    The way galaxies are formed and how elements react to one another cannot be possible without some forn of intelligent meddling.
    "cannot be possible" .. oh really.

    Your personal incredulity does not stand in for actual evidence. You have fallen for creationist propaganda. Creationists use fallacious arguments like the one you just used because they don't have any evidence for a creator. Lets talk
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

       Speaking of loving fellowships, parents already know what their child needs in order to survive, yet they still desire to have a relationship with that child. If the child is wise, they would want the will of their parents, who know best, to prevail in their upbringing. What a delight from the parent to hear their kids say “you know best”, such delight comes from the loving relationship they have. The parent will do whatever they will regardless of the child’s wishes, but that does not mean they do no want to hear them or do not have their best interests at heart.

    You speak as if children never grow up.
    Im not a child.

    Why would I want someone to treat me like a child?

    Religious propagandists would love nothing better than if I did whatever they told me to do. Of course, they would say "God says".

    Yeah, right.

  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

      I guess reiteration is in order, praying for God’s will to be done is an acknowledgment on our part that we are willing to surrender to God’s will rather than our own, is is an act of humility and worship.
    Yep. I see it the same way.

    No will of your own. Just following orders that you imagine God is giving. God's will be done. The only reason that you are a good person ( I consider you to be a good person ) is because of those commands, You would go on a rampage if it weren't for those commands. berserk. Evil. Satanic. Monstrous. Maybe eating babies. What would prevent you? You seem to need to feel prevented from being evil.

    Do you also believe in free will?
    Maybe youre a good person NOT because of your god's commands?

    I don't believe in free will. Im determined by my genetics and social conditioning to not want to eat all of those yummy babies.

  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -   edited September 17
    @Blastcat

    >>>Im not a child.

    Compared to God, you are certainly a child.

    >>>Religious propagandists would love nothing better than if I did whatever they told me to do. Of course, they would say "God says".

    I want you think for yourself and come to your own conclusions, if you reject God that's your choice, you are free to make up your own mind and I do not judge you for it, that's God's job.

    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? God will judge those outside....(1 Cor. 5:12-13)

    >>>You would go on a rampage if it weren't for those commands. berserk

    Conjecture, do you have any facts at all or you just going to spout subjective opinions?

    >>>Maybe you're a good person NOT because of your god's commands?

    Being good is not how we get to heaven.

    ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23“No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10:18)

    But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy... (Titus 3:5)

    >>I don't believe in free will. I'm determined by my genetics and social conditioning to not want to eat all of those yummy babies.

    Your welcome to believe whatever you like, whatever goes on in your head, determined or free, is your business, your life, and I encourage you to continue to live according what you think is correct.
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    >>>Im not a child.

    Compared to God, you are certainly a child.
    Its nice that you are certain, but your certainty does not stand in for evidence. I don't believe in your god, I am an adult.
    Please, do not condescend. It's not nice.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    >>>Religious propagandists would love nothing better than if I did whatever they told me to do. Of course, they would say "God says".

    I want you think for yourself and come to your own conclusions, if you reject God that's your choice, you are free to make up your own mind and I do not judge you for it, that's God's job.

    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? God will judge those outside....(1 Cor. 5:12-13)
     Then you are less of a religious propagandist. Propagandists judge me all the time. They say that if i don't choose God, I will go to hell.
    Lucky for me that I am not a child.

    But children get told that kind of horrible nonsense all the time. It marks them sometimes, for life.
    By the way, I judge people. Not all people are good people. Some are very bad people, indeed. An adult gets to judge things like that. I don't have to refer to some authority figure to think for myself.

    I judge you so far as a pretty nice person. I was going to say "guy:", but that would be a guess.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    >>>You would go on a rampage if it weren't for those commands. berserk

    Conjecture, do you have any facts at all or you just going to spout subjective opinions?
    So, I might have guessed badly. Looks like, in the absence of your god, you might not necessarily go on a rampage and you would remain a pretty nice person. Good for you if that's true.. Some people rely on what they think their god tells them to do. And of course, many people have actually told me that if there was no god, that they would go on a rampage. I don't know if they are serious, but that's what they tell me. Who knows?

    Hard to tell. We do know that some people actually do go on rampages.
    And yes, I spout subjective opinions, to see if they match with reality. You didn't really clear that up, but I'm having one of my subjective opinions again. Call them guesses.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

    >>>Maybe you're a good person NOT because of your god's commands?

    Being good is not how we get to heaven.

    ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23“No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10:18)

    But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy... (Titus 3:5)
    So, you can be a bad person and still get to heaven. I learn something every single day.
    You don't think that anyone is a good person. That's so sad.. maybe cynical. I know a lot of good people, theists and atheists alike.

    Maybe you live in the bad part of town.

    Good luck with the mercy. You will need it.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    >>I don't believe in free will. I'm determined by my genetics and social conditioning to not want to eat all of those yummy babies.

    Your welcome to believe whatever you like, whatever goes on in your head, determined or free, is your business, your life, and I encourage you to continue to live according what you think is correct.
    Thanks so much !
    But why are you being so nice if it really doesn't matter to you?
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>>Its nice that you are certain, but your certainty does not stand in for evidence. I don't believe in your god, I am an adult.

    It simply stands to reason and logic that by definition a supreme being, evidence aside, would be far beyond His creation. How does one measure the difference between a parent and child, if not through knowledge, experience and ability? It's not condescending if I place myself also in the position of a child as well, relatively speaking in comparison to God. It would be condescending if I was comparing myself with you. There is a difference.

    >>>By the way, I judge people. Not all people are good people

    Not all judging is the same, it is a blanket word for all kinds of distinctions that we make. We could be judging someone one way and not in another all at the same time. We all judge, but what is important is in what sense, under what context are making these judgement calls.

    >>>And of course, many people have actually told me that if there was no god, that they would go on a rampage.

    I would say that if that is the only reason they are behaving themselves, they are really out of touch with God and reality. To me anyway being good has utilitarian benefits on it's own. I believe that for a collective society to work and function optimally that out of necessity people need to be good. I believe that the might is right philosophy is deeply flawed on its own merits and history has certainly proven that to be the case. I would say that because of my own convictions regarding goodness that if there was a god who presented himself otherwise i.e. bad or indifferent, I would gladly place myself in a state of rebellion regardless of how omnipotent the entity was, a god not worthy of my worship because my own convictions and judgement would take over.
     
     >>>You don't think that anyone is a good person. That's so sad.. 

    Goodness is relative. Relative to God, no one can be as good, that is the point. I don't go around comparing other people with God, that would be sad. if not misguided. 

    >>>But why are you being so nice if it really doesn't matter to you?

    It has utilitarian purpose in some cases, in this case perhaps to continue a civil conversation, maybe later you will need some tough loving.

      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    >>>Its nice that you are certain, but your certainty does not stand in for evidence. I don't believe in your god, I am an adult.

    It simply stands to reason and logic that by definition a supreme being, evidence aside, would be far beyond His creation. How does one measure the difference between a parent and child, if not through knowledge, experience and ability? It's not condescending if I place myself also in the position of a child as well, relatively speaking in comparison to God. It would be condescending if I was comparing myself with you. There is a difference.
    So, you think that a god makes sense to you. Ok. It makes sense to you. That's not a justification for your belief. Sorry,

    You want to put evidence aside, and that's your problem. Now, you can believe anything you like without bothering with the truth of your belief.
    For all too many, Neo, the truth of their beliefs really doesn't matter at all.

    You would have to demonstrate that there is a God .. it's nice that you believe it's like a parent, it is. It's a lovely idea., Must be so comforting to you. I suppose that's what you prefer over truth. Comfort is nice, isn't it? You want to feel like a child.

    I feel bad for you.
    You prefer nice feelings over truth.
    A lot of people are like that. But you might also be suffering from cognitive dissonance, because, try as hard as you might, reality is there. And you know that you have no justification for your belief in that supernatural daddy. I'd rather feel like a grown up, thanks.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    >>>By the way, I judge people. Not all people are good people

    Not all judging is the same, it is a blanket word for all kinds of distinctions that we make. We could be judging someone one way and not in another all at the same time. We all judge, but what is important is in what sense, under what context are making these judgement calls.
    Yeah, right now, I'm judging the quality of your reasoning, and I judge it extremely poor. That's the context. You believe something with no justification at all. That's very sad. It's a delusion, you know. Living the dream, as they say. I really do hope that I can help you wake up. Reality is fine, trust me. You live in it.. thats all you have. Your belief is ... really quite meaningless since it's not based on the truth.

    And I suspect, that you must know it on some level. But of course, I talk to people who will never give it up. It's too darn nice. You are preferring what you consider a nice feeling over the truth. To me, that's irresponsible, and extremely dangerous. A lot of people support Trump, wont take the vaccines, and only pay attention to conspiracy theories with no basis in facts because they base their judgment on their feelings instead of the facts.

    Covid is real, Trump is a con man most likely going to jail, and your god is a dream. Wishful thinking is not a justification for a belief.
    You don't seem to care about the truth. You haven't mentioned the truth or any justification for your god belief yet, I have to bring it up, and I really don't think that the truth matters to you much.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  

     >>>You don't think that anyone is a good person. That's so sad.. 

    Goodness is relative. Relative to God, no one can be as good, that is the point. I don't go around comparing other people with God, that would be sad. if not misguided.
    Oh, so now you change your tune. You quoted this:

    ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23“No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10:18)
    It seems to me that you really are cynical about your fellow human beings. You don't think any of them are good. Sinners. Everyone is a sinner because you read that in a book. How sad for you, and for anyone who has to deal with you. Now, you say that goodness is relative. Yeah it is. Does that mean you have changed your mind about people being able to be good?

    That would be hopeful to me. 

    And you do compare people with your god. You say that nobody can match it's goodness. That's a comparison, my friend. And in this case, all of humanity loses. If you dropped that silly notion, you could begin to judge people's ideas and actions like an adult does. Not like a child who has to obey some imaginary authority. To say that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God IS a comparison.

    Your religious beliefs are messing with your reasoning. You don't seem to notice. You probably don't care. You really should.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 17

    >>>But why are you being so nice if it really doesn't matter to you?

    It has utilitarian purpose in some cases, in this case perhaps to continue a civil conversation, maybe later you will need some tough loving.

    So, you justify being nice to me by using utilitarianism. Fine.
    You don't need a belief in god to be nice then. Your aren't using your religion. You are just using common sense. Welcome to the rational club!
    There's hope for you yet.

    I really don't know what you mean by tough love, but it sounds very nasty.
    I would much prefer that you remain nice.

    Now, it's all very nice that I indulge your fantasies and all but I don't think they are very interesting.
    I've heard that kind of thing for decades ..You think of yourself as a child, and your reasoning so far HAS been childish. I say that an adult has the responsibility to think as well as possible. You can pretend that you are a child if you like, but I wont be enabling that nonsense.

    So, I have to ask you an extremely important question:
    Does the truth of your beliefs matter to you?

    If you say not, ok, but then, I won't really be interested in your beliefs.
    I really do hope you say yes.

    If you say yes, and you do think that the truth of your beliefs really does matter, then we can continue our discussion.
    If you say no, and that you don't care if what you believe is true or not, I wont really care much about those beliefs at all.,

    At that point, you might as well be opinionated about Star Wars for all I care.
    And, trust me, some people have very strong feelings about Star Wars.
  • NeopesdomNeopesdom 120 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    >>So, you think that a god makes sense to you. Ok. It makes sense to you. That's not a justification for your belief. Sorry, You believe something with no justification at all.

    Sorry but I don't have to justify my beliefs to you, also when exactly was I justifying anything in this conversation? You seem confused, here let me quote you, "You haven't mentioned the truth or any justification for your god belief yet", ..... and you speak about cognitive dissonance, that's rich! Did you think we were having a debate, we could if you want to?

    >>>You want to put evidence aside, and that's your problem.

    You have evidence? Why are you holding it back, by all means present your evidence.

    >>what you prefer over truth

    Your opinion is truth??

    >>>Comfort is nice, isn't it? You want to feel like a child.

    Being a child of God is very comforting.

    And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

    >>>Your belief is ... really quite meaningless since it's not based on the truth.

    Is that because you say so? Did you post your evidence yet?

    >>>A lot of people support Trump, wont take the vaccines, and only pay attention to conspiracy theories with no basis in facts because they base their judgment on their feelings instead of the facts.

    The same vaccines that Trump pushed with "Operation Warp Speed"? Keep going you might only have to dig a little deeper, have your passport ready before you break Chinese soil.

    >>You are preferring what you consider a nice feeling over the truth. To me, that's irresponsible, and extremely dangerous.

    Only you are talking about feelings, the Bible and I agree with your assessment. Feelings can cloud sound judgement, that is why it is important to be in the most resourceful state of mind possible, where reason and logic prevail. God tells us to prove (1 Thess. 5:21), test (1 John 1:4), and study (2 Tim. 2:15) everything, and not trust our feelings (Jeremiah 17:9), glad we are on the same page. 

    >>You think of yourself as a child, and your reasoning so far HAS been childish. 

    Your welcome again to your beliefs, I was just wondering though when or if you will have anything substantial to say. You keep speaking of truth, yet present only opinion, so I will have to conclude until you prove otherwise, that your truth is a cow that will yield such people no more milk, and so you are gone to milk the bull.

    Are you getting mad that your attempted manipulations have failed miserably?

    Blastcat
      “Never argue with an id'iot They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @Blastcat


    Your contradict everything you say ,

    Your exaggeration has been duly noted.
    When you start off with such a grandiose insult, I really don't want to have a conversation with you.
    You aren't being serious. What a waste of time.

    Your argument is yet another completely useless ad hominem, and I will report it to the moderators.
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