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Gender is NOT a social construct.

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Tell me otherwise. 
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  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 352 Pts   -  
    xlJ_dolphin_473PlaffelvohfenBlastcatJeffreyBlankenshipOakTownA
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • @Luigi725. So gender is objective to what you believe?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255

    I've got a couple questions.

    1. If it is a social construct.  Can I determine other people's gender based on how I believe they fit in the construct?

    2. When using pronouns who determined that pronouns are based on gender and not sex?
    JeffreyBlankenshipOakTownA
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4064 Pts   -   edited September 15
    MichaelElpers said:

    1. If it is a social construct.  Can I determine other people's gender based on how I believe they fit in the construct?
    Well, something being a social construct implies that there should be some sort of a societal consensus on it. Say, a business company is a social construct, and it would not be viable if everyone got to decide for themselves what to consider a company and what not.

    That is the problem, though: gender could be a social construct up until recently... It certainly is not any more, now that there are many competing definitions of "gender" and lack of any sort of consensus. There are even people nowadays pushing for the idea that gender can be anything one wants it to be. If that is to be accepted, then gender becomes a meaningless concept.

    It is a silly topic anyway. For the sake of a tiny minority of people who feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, other people are willing to completely ditch all considerations of reason and to start calling males females and vice versa. I have had transsexual friends and had no issues calling them what they preferred to be called - but that is a matter of courtesy. It certainly is not something that should invade science and rewrite everything there. Otherwise, why stop here? There are people believing themselves to be gods; let us start indulging in that belief, calling them gods, praying to them and so on.
    People can call themselves whatever they want; that is fine. What they choose to call themselves should not affect actual definitions of actual words. "Please call me an alligator. - Sure thing, alligator" - that is fine. "I identify as an alligator; please redefine what 'alligator' means" - that is ridiculous.

    If, linguistically speaking, a male can be a female, and a female can be a male, then words "male" and "female" just lose their meanings. If the words can be interchanged based on people's beliefs, then there is no reason to have them. Just call everyone "male" and be done with it.
    BlastcatJeffreyBlankenshipCYDdhartaPlaffelvohfenOakTownA
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 15

    If, linguistically speaking, a male can be a female, and a female can be a male, then words "male" and "female" just lose their meanings. If the words can be interchanged based on people's beliefs, then there is no reason to have them. Just call everyone "male" and be done with it.
    All words including words like "male" are social constructs. They aren't writ in stone from above. Meanings change over time,. For example, Shakespeare is hard for us to understand, these days. In fact, Shakespeare invented a lot of words that never caught on. Some did. But the reason that we have dictionaries is to list how people use the words. Typically, even the most common word has more than one usage. Linguistically, words are rather very fluid in their meanings.

    A lot of people don't like change. We often call those people who don't like change "conservatives". The politics of gender is a hot topic in these circles who might like toilet police.


    JeffreyBlankenshipSwolliwOakTownACYDdhartaLuigi7255
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -   edited September 15
    @MayCaesar

    I'm not in disagreement with you.  My response would be if there really is an objective consensus, I'd say a lot of people wanting to change there gender wouldn't meet it. 
    So is gender how someone feels they fit in the construct or should they have to meet a more objective reality of societies current construct? Currently they are treating it as the former, which is really more of a feeling than a construct.
    JeffreyBlankenshipBlastcat
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4064 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    Yes, I think that the very nature of self-identification necessitates that it is done with consideration of objective reality in mind. For example, if someone identifies as a dragon, they clearly mean a very particular kind of creature - which might not exist in reality, but, at least, it can theoretically exist. And if this identification is made based purely on feelings, then it does not make a lot of sense. The very essence of saying, "I am a dragon", is identification with certain immutable properties of a dragon.

    So, when someone says, "I feel and identify as a female", they have to have specific reasons for why what commonly is meant by the word "female" is properly placed here. One may, for instance, say, "Even though I have male sexual organs, I have always naturally felt as if I had female ones". This is a valid reasoning.

    But when people say, "I feel like a female, and you just have to accept it, because I say so", then that is circular reasoning. What does it mean to "feel like a female"? Feeling like a female is not just some random mumbo-jumbo that can be used as a placeholder for any imaginable concept; no, it has to mean something very particular. Many people do not seem to bother clarifying that.

    Imagine if I say out of the blue, "I identify as a Chinese". The most natural question anyone would ask upon seeing me (a person who does not look like a Chinese, does not speak a word of Chinese, has not spent much time in China, and has frequently openly stated his strong disapproval of the Chinese government) would be, "Why?" It would be ludicrous for someone to just take my word on it and say, "Okay, you are Chinese". If "I am X" is just a matter of personal opinion and not some match between one's attributes and the linguistical meaning of "X", then "I am X" is a meaningless statement. If a statement can mean whatever one wants, then it is not a statement at all. 
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4385 Pts   -   edited September 16
    I wonder where it’s all going to end whole new industries world wide are being created all around Gender children over here now are having to take classes at school in the ever increasing list of genders and businesses are bringing in “experts “ to explain the dangers of misgendering someone in the workplace which is being policed by individuals who are ready to pounce and shame any individuals who step out of place 

    People are outed and shamed every day for so called infractions of this ever changing  bewildering language of gender by what I call the gender Taliban , it’s utterly over the top and ridiculous with people looking for offense and taking it everywhere 

    Recently I watched and posted up a piece by a person who was gender fluid and in a 3 way relationship with a non binary person and another gender fluid person this individual was upset that people called it’s new born a “baby “ it wants it called a “theyby” as it wants the child to explore gender identity when it grows up ……utter nonsense and worse that people put up with it 

    Years ago in “primitive “ times you arrived in the workplace and said “ hi bill “ , “morning Jane “ etc , etc and people were cool with that now you have to learn new terminology to negotiate your day , I don’t care what religion, politics you are in the workplace but I must know your gender history why?

    Here is a list from the daily increasing list I want everyone to learn off by heart so as not to upset these over sensitive individuals …….

    BTW be careful in the  workplace the gender fluid person who yesterday identified as she could today be he …



    AFAB

    Acronym meaning “assigned female at birth.”

    Agender

    Someone who doesn’t identify with the idea or experience of having a gender.

    Aliagender

    nonbinary gender identity that doesn’t fit into existing gender schemas or constructs.

    AMAB

    Acronym meaning “assigned male at birth.”

    Androgyne

    Someone who has a gender presentation or identity that’s gender neutral, androgynous, or has both masculine and feminine characteristics.

    Aporagender

    Both an umbrella term and nonbinary gender identity that describes the experience of having a specific gender that’s different from male, female, or any combination of the two.

    Bigender

    This term describes someone who identifies with two distinct genders.

    Bigender indicates the number of gender identities someone has.

    It doesn’t indicate which genders someone identifies with or the level of identification they have with a particular gender (such as 50% male, 50% demigirl).

    Binarism

    Generally, binarism refers to the gender systems and schemas that are based on the existence of two opposing parts, such as male/female, man/woman, or masculine/feminine.

    More specifically, binarism is a type of sexism that erases ethnic or culture-specific nonbinary gender roles and identities.

    Body dysphoria

    Body dysphoria is different from body dysphoric disorder.

    It refers to a specific type of gender dysphoria that manifests as distress or discomfort with aspects of the body.

    This may include anatomy, shape, size, chromosomes, secondary sex characteristics, or internal reproductive structures.

    Boi

    A term, primarily used in LGBTQIA+ communities, that typically describes someone who has a presentation, sexuality, or gender that’s considered “boyish.”

    Butch

    Primarily used in LGBTQIA+ communities, this term typically describes someone with a presentation, sexuality, or gender that’s considered masculine.

    Butch doesn’t necessarily indicate the other terms that someone might use to describe their presentation, sexuality, or gender.

    Cisgender

    A term used to describe people who exclusively identify with their sex or gender assigned at birth.

    Cisnormativity

    The assumption that a person identifies with the sex or gender they were assigned at birth, or that having a cisgender gender identity is the norm.

    Cissexism

    form of oppression that discriminates against those who aren’t cisgender.

    Demiboy

    This nonbinary gender identity describes someone who partially identifies as a boy, man, or masculine.

    The term demiboy tells us about someone’s gender identity, but doesn’t convey any information about the sex or gender assigned to someone at birth.

    A demiboy can identify as cisgender or trans.

    Demigender

    This umbrella term typically includes nonbinary gender identities and uses the prefix “demi-” to indicate the experience of having a partial identification or connection to a particular gender.

    This may include:

    • demigirl
    • demiboy
    • demienby
    • demitrans

    Demigirl

    This nonbinary gender identity describes someone who partially identifies as a girl, woman, womxn, or feminine.

    The term demigirl tells us about someone’s gender identity, but doesn’t convey any information about the sex or gender assigned to someone at birth.

    A demigirl can also identify as cisgender or trans.

    Dyadic

    This describes people who have sex characteristics — such as chromosomes, hormones, internal organs, or anatomy — that can be easily categorized into the binary sex framework of male or female.

    Dyadic conveys information about someone’s sex characteristics but doesn’t indicate anything about their gender.


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    Terms E to H


    Feminine-of-center

    This describes people who identify their gender as feminine or femme.

    Some feminine-of-center people also identify with the word woman, but others don’t.

    The term feminine-of-center tells you about someone’s gender identity, but doesn’t convey any information about the sex or gender assigned to them at birth.

    Feminine-presenting

    This describes people who have a gender expression or presentation that they or others categorize as feminine.

    Feminine-presenting is a term that captures the part of someone’s gender that’s shown externally, either through aspects of their style, appearance, physical traits, mannerisms, or body language.

    This term doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about the way someone identifies their gender or the gender or sex assigned to them at birth.

    Femme

    This is a label for a gender identity or expression that describes someone with a gender that is or leans towards feminine.

    Some femmes also identify as women, while many others don’t.

    Femme indicates the way someone experiences or expresses their gender, and doesn’t provide any information about the gender or sex assigned to them at birth.

    Female-to-male (FTM)

    This term and acronym is most commonly used to refer to trans males, trans men, and some transmasculine people who were assigned female at birth.

    It’s important to only use this term if someone prefers to be referred to this way, as some trans males, trans men, and transmasculine people use terms that don’t include or indicate the sex they were assigned at birth.

    Gender apathetic

    This term describes someone who doesn’t strongly identify with any gender or with any gender labels.

    Some gender apathetic people also use terms that indicate their relationship with the sex or gender assigned to them at birth — such as cis apathetic or trans apathetic — while others don’t.

    Generally, people who are gender apathetic display an attitude of flexibility, openness, and “not caring” about how gender identity or presentation is perceived and labeled by others.

    Gender binary

    Also known as gender binarism, this term refers to gender classification systems — whether cultural, legal, structural, or social — that organize gender or sex into two mutually exclusive categories such as male/female, man/woman, or masculine/feminine.

    Gender dysphoria

    This is both a medical diagnosis and informal term used to communicate challenging feelings or distress people experience in relation to gender.

    The medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria refers to a conflict between someone’s assigned sex (as male, female, or intersex) and the gender with which they identify.

    When used informally, gender dysphoria describes interactions, assumptions, physical traits, or body parts that don’t feel affirming or inclusive of someone’s expressed or experienced gender.

    Gender expression

    Gender expression is the way someone expresses gender through behavior, mannerisms, interests, physical characteristics, or appearance.

    It’s often, but not always, described using terms such as masculine, feminine, neutral, androgynous, conforming, or nonconforming.

    The words used to describe someone’s gender expression are dependent upon social or cultural norms and stereotypes and may change over time.

    Gender identity

    This is the way someone experiences gender internally as part of their core sense of self.

    Gender identity can’t be assumed based on appearance, anatomy, social norms, or stereotypes.

    Gender identity isn’t determined by assigned gender or sex, and often develops or changes over time.

    Gender-neutral pronouns

    These pronouns aren’t stereotypically or culturally categorized as male or female, masculine or feminine, or for men or women.

    Gender-neutral pronouns are used by both cisgender and transgender individuals as a way to affirm and convey important information about who they are and how they want to be referred to.

    Examples include:

    • they/them/theirs
    • ze/hir/hirs
    • ze/zir/zirs
    • xe/xem/xyrs

    Gender nonconforming

    This term is used to describe people with a gender expression or presentation that’s different from cultural or social stereotypes associated with the person’s perceived or assigned gender or sex.

    Gender nonconforming isn’t a gender identity, though some people do self-identify using this term.

    It doesn’t convey any information about the way someone experiences gender internally.

    More accurately, gender nonconforming is a term used to describe physical traits in relation to socially and culturally defined gender categories.

    People of any gender — cis, trans, or nonbinary — can be gender nonconforming.

    Gender normative

    A term used to describe gender traits or identities that are perceived to fall within social norms and expectations.

    Gender presentation

    Similar to gender expression, gender presentation refers to the way someone uses behavior, mannerisms, interests, physical characteristics, or appearance to convey or present a particular gender externally.

    Gender questioning

    A person who’s questioning one or multiple aspects of their gender, such as their gender identity or expression.

    Gender roles

    The interests, behaviors, and mannerisms that a society or culture assigns to a particular gender or to the things expected of a person based on their assigned, perceived, or actual gender.

    Gender roles change over time and across cultures.

    Gender variant

    Similar to gender nonconforming, gender variant is an umbrella term used to describe people with a gender identity, expression, or presentation that’s different from the perceived social norm or dominant group.

    Some people dislike this term because of its potential to perpetuate misinformation and negative stigma about noncisgender gender identities and nonconforming presentation being less normal or naturally occurring.

    Genderfluid

    This label is used to describe gender identity or expression.

    It involves the experience of moving between genders or having a gender that changes over a particular period of time. For example, from moment to moment, day to day, month to month, year to year, or decade to decade.

    Genderfuck

    Similar to the term gender bender, genderfuck involves the act of combating or dismantling the gender binary and stereotypes through a gender identity, expression, or presentation that challenges existing norms and expectations in a given cultural context.

    Genderqueer

    This nonbinary gender identity and term describes someone with a gender that can’t be categorized as exclusively male or female, or exclusively masculine or feminine.

    People who identify as genderqueer experience and express gender many different ways. This can include neither, both, or a combination of male, female, or nonbinary genders.

    Graygender

    A gender term that describes someone who experiences ambivalence about gender identity or expression, and doesn’t fully identify with a binary gender that’s exclusively male or female.


    Terms I to P


    Intergender

    A nonbinary gender identity that describes the experience of having a gender that falls somewhere in between female and male or is a mix of both male and female.

    Intersex

    An umbrella term that describes people who have sex characteristics — such as chromosomes, internal organs, hormones, or anatomy — that can’t be easily categorized into the binary sex framework of male or female.

    Intersex conveys information about someone’s sex characteristics but doesn’t indicate anything about their gender identity.

    Masculine-of-center

    This term describes people who identify their gender as masculine or masc.

    Some masculine-of-center people also identify with the word man, but many others don’t.

    The term masculine-of-center tells you about someone’s gender identity, but doesn’t convey any information about the sex or gender assigned to them at birth.

    Masculine-presenting

    This term describes people who have a gender expression or presentation that they or others categorize as masculine.

    Masculine-presenting captures the part of someone’s gender that’s shown externally, either through aspects of their style, appearance, physical traits, mannerisms, or body language.

    This term doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about the way someone identifies their gender or the gender or sex assigned to them.

    Maverique

    This nonbinary gender identity emphasizes the inner experience of gender.

    It describes those who experience gender or have a core gender identity that’s independent of existing categories and definitions of gender, such as male or female, man or woman, masculine or feminine, and androgynous or neutral.

    Misgender

    The act of referring to someone using a gender pronoun or gendered language that’s incorrect, inaccurate, or not inclusive of the person’s actual gender identity.

    Male-to-female (MTF)

    This term and acronym is most commonly used to refer to trans females, trans women, and some transfeminine people who were assigned male at birth.

    It’s important to only use this term if someone prefers to be referred to this way, as some trans females, trans women, and some transfeminine people prefer to use terms that don’t include or overtly indicate the sex they were assigned at birth.

    Multi-gender

    This umbrella term is used to describe people who experience more than one gender identity.

    Other gender labels that fall under the multi-gender umbrella include:

    • bigender
    • trigender
    • pangender
    • polygender

    In some cases, “genderfluid” may also fall under this umbrella.

    Neutrois

    This nonbinary identity and umbrella term is used to describe people who have a gender that isn’t exclusively male or female.

    Neutrois can be a broader term encompassing other gender identities, such as nonbinary, agender, genderfluid, or genderless.

    Nonbinary

    Also referred to as enby, this is a gender identity and umbrella term for gender identities that can’t be exclusively categorized as male or female.

    Individuals who identify as nonbinary can experience gender a variety of ways, including a combination of male and female, neither male nor female, or something else altogether.

    Some nonbinary individuals identify as trans, while many others don’t.

    Whether a nonbinary person also identifies as trans is often dependent on the extent to which that person identifies, even partially, with the sex or gender assigned to them at birth.

    Novigender

    A gender identity used by people who experience having a gender that can’t be described using existing language due to its complex and unique nature.

    Pangender

    A nonbinary gender identity that describes people who experience all or many gender identities on the gender spectrum simultaneously or over time.

    Polygender

    This gender identity term describes the experience of having multiple gender identities, simultaneously or over time.

    This term indicates the number of gender identities someone experiences, but doesn’t necessarily indicate which genders are included in the given person’s polygender identity.


    Terms Q to Z


    Sex

    The classification of a person as male, female, or intersex based on the existing system of organizing human bodies and biologies.

    This system is based on chromosomes, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, and secondary sex characteristics.

    Sex assigned at birth

    This refers to the act of assigning or designating a particular sex to a person based on their chromosomes, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, and secondary sex characteristics.

    This is often done by medical professionals during pregnancy or immediately after childbirth.

    The sex a person is assigned at birth doesn’t determine or indicate anything about their authentic gender experience or identity.

    Social dysphoria

    A specific type of gender dysphoria that manifests as distress and discomfort that results from way society or other people perceive, label, refer to, or interact with someone’s gender or body.

    Soft butch

    Both a gender identity and term used to describe the nonconforming gender expression of someone who has some masculine or butch traits, but doesn’t fully fit the stereotypes associated with masculine or butch cisgender lesbians.

    Stone butch

    Both a gender identity and term used to describe the nonconforming gender expression of someone who embodies traits associated with female butchness or stereotypes associated with traditional masculinity.

    Third gender

    Originating in non-Western and native cultures, third gender is a gender category that includes people who have a gender that can’t be exclusively categorized as male or female, or is different from male or female.

    Transfeminine

    A gender identity label that conveys the experience of having a feminine gender identity that’s different from the gender or sex that was assigned at birth.

    Transgender or trans

    Both an umbrella term including many gender identities and a specific gender identity that describes those with a gender identity that’s different from the sex assigned at birth (male, female, or intersex).

    Transmasculine

    A gender identity label that conveys the experience of having a masculine gender identity that’s different than the gender or sex that was assigned at birth.

    Transitioning

    The act of making physical, social, medical, surgical, interpersonal, or personal changes that help to affirm gender or address gender dysphoria.

    Transsexual

    Falling under the transgender umbrella, transsexual is a word that was medically and historically used to indicate a difference between one’s gender identity (i.e., the internal experience of gender) and sex assigned at birth (as male, female, or intersex).

    Transsexual is often (though not always) used to communicate that one’s experience of gender involves a medical diagnosis or medical changes — such as hormones or surgery — that help alter anatomy and appearance to feel more congruent with gender identity.

    Due to a fraught history, the word transsexual can be contentious and shouldn’t be used unless someone specifically asks to be referred to this way.

    Trigender

    This gender identity describes the experience of having three gender identities, simultaneously or over time.

    This term indicates the number of gender identities someone experiences, but doesn’t necessarily indicate which genders are included in a given person’s trigender identity.

    Two-spirit

    This umbrella term was created by native communities to bring traditional indigenous understandings of gender and sexuality into Western and contemporary native education and literature.

    Each First Nation tribe has its own understanding and meaning of what it means to be two-spirit, so this term can have many definitions.

    Two-spirit generally refers to a gender role believed to be a common, acknowledged, accepted, and praised gender classification among most First Nation communities, dating back centuries.





  • exconexcon 279 Pts   -   edited September 16

    If it is a social construct.  Can I determine other people's gender based on how I believe they fit in the construct?
    Hello M:

    In this great land of ours you absolutely HAVE the freedom to determine other people's gender based on your beliefs..  You do NOT have the freedom to DO anything about what you think..

    As well, in this great nation, anybody and everybody has the absolute FREEDOM to determine their own gender for themselves, based upon whatever reasons they choose.   They do NOT have the freedom to FORCE you to agree.

    Finally, in the USA, if you wanna believe, May, that you're a dragon or an elf, or a block of wood, you absolutely have the FREEDOM to do so..  You do NOT have the freedom to force anyone to agree with you..

    Ain't this a great country, or what?

    excon
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

    But when people say, "I feel like a female, and you just have to accept it, because I say so", then that is circular reasoning.
    That's not what circular reasoning means.

    Your argument is this:

    1. I feel like a female.
    2. Therefore, you just have to accept that I feel like a female.

    You might not accept that she feels like a female, so you might not accept premise one. A lot of people have trouble accepting the feelings of others. In the conclusion, she is saying that you should accept her feelings. You might not agree with that. You might not feel you need to accept her feelings just because she has them.

    Circular reasoning never comes into the argument you presented. In debates, it's crucial to avoid circular reasoning, and therefore, crucial to find out what it means:


    PlaffelvohfenHappy_Killbot
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

    Imagine if I say out of the blue, "I identify as a Chinese". The most natural question anyone would ask upon seeing me (a person who does not look like a Chinese, does not speak a word of Chinese, has not spent much time in China, and has frequently openly stated his strong disapproval of the Chinese government) would be, "Why?" It would be ludicrous for someone to just take my word on it and say, "Okay, you are Chinese".
    If it's important for you to verify if the person is, indeed, Chinese when you are skeptical, you should ask for evidence. The person might be Caucasian, ( white ) and have no physical features that you associate with being Chinese, but still have Chinese citizenship, two Chinese parents. Go figure, there are Caucasian people who live in China.

    You don't have to take their word for it.

    The person might associate so strongly with the Chinese culture that she "Feels Chinese".You might have to ask her why she says she is Chinese. People have feelings. I know I do. I identify with many cultures. I sometimes label myself "DJ" because I mix music just like a DJ does with the same kind of equipment. You might decide that I'm too amateurish ( ok, I am ) to call myself a DJ. You might decide that a real DJ gets payed for mixing music for people. I don't. I do it for free.

    However, your criteria for what a "real" DJ is does in NO WAY affect my feelings on the matter, nor my self-identification.

    And your Chinese analogy doesn't apply here. A person's race or nationality is not a "FEELING". A person's gender is. I feel like a man, I sure look like one, but that's my feelings on the matter. If I don't tell you my feelings on the matter, you will not be able to guess my feelings on the matter.
    __________________

    I have to ask you why my feelings on the matter would bother you in any way? It sure looks like it bothers you a lot. A lot of people are trans-phobic and just don't like it when someone self-identifies in a way that they just do not like, for whatever reason.

    My self-identification is about my feelings, not yours, after all. If you want to hurt my feelings, go right ahead. Don't call me a DJ. That's a very small matter, anyway. But when it comes to gender, a person's feelings might be huge. We can't pretend that trans-phobia isn't real, and that trans people aren't being oppressed, in all kinds of clever ways.

    That's why they would like to force people who attack them to stop. Leave them alone, let them live, and respect that they are humans with basic human rights, please.

    I appeal to your compassion. And I have spotted a few errors in your reasoning.

  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2805 Pts   -   edited September 16
    @JeffreyBlankenship

    Many cultures around the world have recognized more than 2 genders for thousands of years...

    The Hijras in South Asia, the Navajo, Lakota, Mohave tribes recognize 4 genders, the fa'afafine of Polynesia, the chibados of Angola, the femminiello in Neapolitan culture... And the list goes on...

    Gender is, socially constructed...
    Happy_KillbotLuigi7255
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    If you live in the US, Europe, or most parts of Asia, odds are that you will walk around and see women who are not covering themselves with a Hijab or Burka. If however you are in the middle east, you will tend to see this.

    Why is this seemingly irrelevant detail important?

    Well, first off it demonstrates that there are cultural dependencies to gender, as this is the only thing which can explain the discrepancy indicating that it is a social construct.

    This as a specific example of a gender construct provides evidence that in fact. one's gender identity is at least tied to social constructions. We can however, do one better by demonstrating that in fact there is nothing, with the notable exception of sex, which is an aspect of gender identity but not a social construct.

    Let's play a little game (i'm stealing from vegans) called "name that trait"

    The rules are simple: list any trait which is always true of gender identity.

    If you list something which is also a social construct, then this reduces to absurdity as with the Hijab example above because it provides a reason to not think that they are different

    At some point, you might come up with something like "sex".
    Then I might ask, how is that thing necessarily subject to cultural norms a nd practices?
    (that is to say, is it necessarily the case that cultural practices be applied based on that thing you name)

    If the answer is "no" then you admit that it is not a reason to think that gender is anything but a social construct.
    if the answer is "yes" then you must acknowledge that what we are determines what role we have in society.
    PlaffelvohfenLuigi7255Blastcat
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

    If you live in the US, Europe, or most parts of Asia, odds are that you will walk around and see women who are not covering themselves with a Hijab or Burka. If however you are in the middle east, you will tend to see this.

    Why is this seemingly irrelevant detail important?

    Well, first off it demonstrates that there are cultural dependencies to gender, as this is the only thing which can explain the discrepancy indicating that it is a social construct.
    Your example fails.

    Wearing a hijab or a burka is a social construct, but you would have to demonstrate that these women accept the dress code in order to self-identify as  women. We know that these women dress that way to self-identify as Muslim, and in all too many cases, to save their very lives.

    In these cultures, a man who would dress up as woman would have a real hard time of it. In fact, I suspect, they might be killed in some of those cultures. There's not a lot of cross-dressing or trans culture in Islamic states who tend to be homophobic to the extreme.

    Dress codes vary from region to region for sure, but you have only demonstrated that dress code is a cultural "dependency", not gender identification.
  • Tell me otherwise. 
    I aim to please: Gender is a social construct. 
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotBlastcat
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Are you saying that a hijab/Burka is not an aspect of a woman's gender identity IAW the cultural norms of middle eastern societies and Islamic tradition?

    I really don't see how anyone could even possibly argue against that, and when we discuss gender identity as it pertains to this discussion, it is stuff like the that we are talking about. The simple fact that these societies require that women dress modestly (and will punish non-conformists) seems to me to be definitive proof that people are accepting these norms as part of their gender identity. I can't think of any other useful explanation to describe this social behavior. (do note I am talking about the dress code as a social requirement, not the articles of clothing themselves if that is your objection here)

    In Western culture, examples might include things like "men are the bread winners" and "women are homemakers" as a component of gender identity, or in recent years "men play violent videogames" and "women drink pumpkin spice lattes" would be another set of examples of socially constructed gender identities on par with the hijab as an example.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

    Are you saying that a hijab/Burka is not an aspect of a woman's gender identity IAW the cultural norms of middle eastern societies and Islamic tradition?
    Yep. That's what I'm saying.

    We all know that they wear it to identify as an obedient Muslim, as I stated in my initial reply to you.

    It would be a bit different if men wore them to self-identify as women, but i think.. that's probably not happening a lot. If they were to be found out in Islamic states ( lets use Afghanistan as an example ) they would be severely punished.

    Public cross dressing is kinda rare in Afghanistan. Trans-gendered people maybe even more rare because the consequences of being outed could be dire.


    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat ;

    Isn't the simple fact that it would be punished evidence that the society is pushing this gender identity onto women, thus proving that wearing a hijab/burka is a socially constructed gender identity?

    Is there any other possible explanation for this?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16
    @Blastcat ;

    Isn't the simple fact that it would be punished evidence that the society is pushing this gender identity onto women, thus proving that wearing a hijab/burka is a socially constructed gender identity?

    Is there any other possible explanation for this?
    Modesty is the most likely suspect. In Sharia, women have to hide most of their bodies. In its traditionalist form, the hijab is worn by Muslim women to maintain modesty and privacy from unrelated males. According to the Encyclopedia of Islam and Muslim World, modesty concerns both men's and women's "gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia". The Qur'an instructs Muslim women and men to dress modestly.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -  
    @excon

    I never said anything about me being able to do anything or others being able to force me to do anything.

    One of my points is why does society deem it more offensive that I assume or decide how I see someone else fits in that construct.

    It's stated to be a social construct but there doesn't seem objective social construct.  Therefore to me the term gender doesn't really have much meaning at all because people can decide there gender based any perceived reality.
    Blastcat
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat ;
    Blastcat said:

    Modesty is the most likely suspect. In Sharia, women have to hide most of their bodies. In its traditionalist form, the hijab is worn by Muslim women to maintain modesty and privacy from unrelated males. According to the Encyclopedia of Islam and Muslim World, modesty concerns both men's and women's "gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia". The Qur'an instructs Muslim women and men to dress modestly.
    Ok, but doesn't that just push the question back? Isn't the desire for modesty itself a social construct given that many societies such as western societies just don't care about it?

    I would argue that adherence to the qu'ran is itself a social construct as with all religious traditions.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16
    @Blastcat ;
    Blastcat said:

    Modesty is the most likely suspect. In Sharia, women have to hide most of their bodies. In its traditionalist form, the hijab is worn by Muslim women to maintain modesty and privacy from unrelated males. According to the Encyclopedia of Islam and Muslim World, modesty concerns both men's and women's "gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia". The Qur'an instructs Muslim women and men to dress modestly.
    Ok, but doesn't that just push the question back? Isn't the desire for modesty itself a social construct given that many societies such as western societies just don't care about it?

    I would argue that adherence to the qu'ran is itself a social construct as with all religious traditions.
    My point was that a hijab is used to denote modesty and adherence to Islam, not gender.

    Yes, a desire for modesty is a social construct. Adherence to the Qu'ran is also a social construct. Just because something is a social construct does not mean that it's about gender identification.

    Your mistake is a category error. The hijab is not use to display a gender association but for other reasons entirely. It just so happens that only women have to hide their bodies, but they aren't signalling their gender association by wearing the disguise. They are signalling their obedience and fear of men and that they are Muslim.

    In fact, I'd say that the hijab is used to HIDE their gender, not to display it.

    In secular countries, women still decide to wear a hijab, and that's not because they are cross dressing. They wear it to signal that they are Muslims and that they might live in a powerful, restrictive social group. Now, it's entirely possible that a Muslim man might cross dress and wear a hijab, but since that goes against Shariah, I don't think that would be very common. But if they do, then ok, that would signal that they are ... maybe LGBTQ or something. We would have to ask.

    The hijab is a religious symbol. High heels and lipstick aren't
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat ;
    My point was that a hijab is used to denote modesty and adherence to Islam, not gender.

    Yes, a desire for modesty is a social construct. Adherence to the Qu'ran is also a social construct. Just because something is a social construct does not mean that it's about gender identification. In fact, I'd say that the hijab is used to HIDE their femininity, not to display it.

    That's your mistake.
    I fail to see how displaying vs hiding one's femininity is relevant here as both pertain to gender identity, and are levied directly by a social construction on the basis of sex.

    I don't think these two things are mutually exclusive, if it possible that a hijab denotes modesty, adherence to Islam, adherence to cultural norms, and gender identity all under the pretext of a social construct. I see no reason to think it is one or the other.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • exconexcon 279 Pts   -   edited September 16
    @excon

    I never said anything about me being able to do anything

    Hello M:

    DOING things includes supporting bathroom bills; supporting politicians who itch to pass bathroom bills; going to rally's where the speaker supports bathroom bills; donating to campaigns where the objective is to pass bathroom bills; demonstrating in front of schoolhouses for bathroom bills.

    I even think writing about it is DOING something..  IF you support your FREE fellow citizens to be as weird as they want, in this great nation, you say and do NOTHING.  If you're not DOING anything, what is the purpose of your post?

    excon
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1711 Pts   -  
    @excon

    I never said anything about me being able to do anything or others being able to force me to do anything.

    One of my points is why does society deem it more offensive that I assume or decide how I see someone else fits in that construct.

    It's stated to be a social construct but there doesn't seem objective social construct.  Therefore to me the term gender doesn't really have much meaning at all because people can decide there gender based any perceived reality.
    There's almost never a reason to use the term gender.  Sex is much more meaningful descriptor. 
    excon
  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16
    @Blastcat ;
    My point was that a hijab is used to denote modesty and adherence to Islam, not gender.

    Yes, a desire for modesty is a social construct. Adherence to the Qu'ran is also a social construct. Just because something is a social construct does not mean that it's about gender identification. In fact, I'd say that the hijab is used to HIDE their femininity, not to display it.

    That's your mistake.
    I fail to see how displaying vs hiding one's femininity is relevant here as both pertain to gender identity, and are levied directly by a social construction on the basis of sex.

    I don't think these two things are mutually exclusive, if it possible that a hijab denotes modesty, adherence to Islam, adherence to cultural norms, and gender identity all under the pretext of a social construct. I see no reason to think it is one or the other.

    It's not only possible that the hijab denotes modesty, it's a fact. I have no evidence that a hijab is used to denote gender.

    If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be grateful. I use debates to learn.


  • BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -  
    @excon

    Therefore to me the term gender doesn't really have much meaning at all because people can decide there gender based any perceived reality.
    So, just for clarity, do you believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman?
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5193 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat ;
    It's not only possible that the hijab denotes modesty, it's a fact. I have no evidence that a hijab is used to denote gender.

    If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be grateful. I use debates to learn.
    The evidence is as you provided:

    In these cultures, a man who would dress up as woman would have a real hard time of it. In fact, I suspect, they might be killed in some of those cultures. There's not a lot of cross-dressing or trans culture in Islamic states who tend to be homophobic to the extreme.
    It would be a bit different if men wore them to self-identify as women, but i think.. that's probably not happening a lot. If they were to be found out in Islamic states ( lets use Afghanistan as an example ) they would be severely punished.

    Public cross dressing is kinda rare in Afghanistan. Trans-gendered people maybe even more rare because the consequences of being outed could be dire.
    It just so happens that only women have to hide their bodies, but they aren't signalling their gender association by wearing the disguise. They are signalling their obedience and fear of men and that they are Muslim.

    In fact, I'd say that the hijab is used to HIDE their gender, not to display it.
    In secular countries, women still decide to wear a hijab, and that's not because they are cross dressing. They wear it to signal that they are Muslims and that they might live in a powerful, restrictive social group. Now, it's entirely possible that a Muslim man might cross dress and wear a hijab, but since that goes against Shariah, I don't think that would be very common. But if they do, then ok, that would signal that they are ... maybe LGBTQ or something. We would have to ask.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1711 Pts   -  
    Should a transgender rɑpist be put in a men's or a woman's prison?

    Transgender woman who rɑped a 15-year-old girl could be moved to a female prison under proposed law
  • piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
    @JeffreyBlankenship

    It pretty much says in plain English in the definition of gender that it is indeed a social construction.  

    gen·der
    /ˈjendər/
    noun
    1. 1.
      either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to SOCIAL AND CULTURAL DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN BIOLOGICAL ONES. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
      "a condition that affects people of both genders"
      • 2.
        GRAMMAR
        (in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections that they have and require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.
      Gender is just a short term for gender roles. This means that the idea of wearing pink dresses and high heels is for women and girls is only a social construction, not related to any biological processes. Our sex is certainly related strictly to biological processes, whereas our gender is not any kind of scientific truth. One blaring red flag that should tip somebody off to the non-scientific categorization of gender is its relation to sociology which is inherently not scientific. Its an overglorified form of journalism. Sociology cannot demonstrate a cause and effect. It can only categorize specific social behaviors. No true effect from those categories can be scientifically surmised. It's all just a giant categorization of quaint little quirks that make up social behavior. Savoir faire is fake!!!!  
      Blastcat
    2. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

      It pretty much says in plain English in the definition of gender that it is indeed a social construction. 
      You must be using a rather modern dictionary. Meanings of words are also social constructs, and can change over time and culture.
    3. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
      Blastcat said:

      It pretty much says in plain English in the definition of gender that it is indeed a social construction. 
      You must be using a rather modern dictionary. Meanings of words are also social constructs, and can change over time and culture.
      Granted. But in the context of the difference between gender and sex, the two are not interchangeable. At least not in the sense if how those words are currently used. What I'm mostly pointing out is that socially established connotations of acceptable behavior for males vs females is only a social construction. It is the ideas of acceptable social behavior that are the construction, as well as the words. The best word that can be used to describe those socially acceptable social behaviors is gender. And when we are describing indisputable biological differences, the best term to describe that would be our sex.    
      Blastcat
    4. MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -  
      @excon

      I'm not sure where bathroom bills came up or where you came up with my stance on law.

      My post was to question how the term gender is being used and how society currently views it.  I've said nothing about how any of it should be regulated by law.  People have free speech that can call themselves whatever they want and others can view and call others whatever they want without incitement of violence.
      piloteerBlastcat
    5. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -   edited September 16
      @excon

      I'm not sure where bathroom bills came up or where you came up with my stance on law.

      My post was to question how the term gender is being used and how society currently views it.  I've said nothing about how any of it should be regulated by law.  People have free speech that can call themselves whatever they want and others can view and call others whatever they want without incitement of violence.
      Well put!!!!

      In reference to how gender is being used, I cannot contest that it is not a static word, because all words are not in the end. But what can be contested is the phenomena of socially established connotations of behavior that is allocated for each sex. There's is no biological study that can demonstrate how women and girls are genetically predisposed to liking pink dresses and ironing boards. Obviously those are social constructions. So, because of a lack of any better term to describe that phenom, the word gender will be used in the interim. It's not so much the term that's up for grabs here, it's the phenomena of the social acceptability of specific behaviors that are allocated for each sex that is really at stake here.    
    6. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -  

      Granted. But in the context of the difference between gender and sex, the two are not interchangeable. At least not in the sense if how those words are currently used.
      Not as they are currently used, agreed. Usage can vary. And in this website, I've really noticed that some people use words in a very personal, interesting way.

      Some do so to the point of incomprehensibility.

      The best word that can be used to describe those socially acceptable social behaviors is gender. And when we are describing indisputable biological differences, the best term to describe that would be our sex.    

      Ok, makes sense.
      My sexual organs are what I would describe as male and when it comes to what gender I identify with is also male, but it could be different.

      As for trans people... Their sex organs are... variable so their sex should reflect that variability. What do we use.. percentages?

      If you say youre a woman, that's enough for me, it's not as if Im going to go check down there. Im too old to go check you down there. Too bad we didn't meet decades ago. I was very found of checking out the sex of people back in the day.

      Ahhh those were the days, my friend. I thought they would never end.

      piloteer
    7. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
      Tell me otherwise. 
      I aim to please: Gender is a social construct. 
      This should have been the first post on this thread. 
      Blastcat
    8. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
      Blastcat said:

      Granted. But in the context of the difference between gender and sex, the two are not interchangeable. At least not in the sense if how those words are currently used.
      Not as they are currently used, agreed. Usage can vary. And in this website, I've really noticed that some people use words in a very personal, interesting way.

      Some do so to the point of incomprehensibility.

      The best word that can be used to describe those socially acceptable social behaviors is gender. And when we are describing indisputable biological differences, the best term to describe that would be our sex.    

      Ok, makes sense.
      My sexual organs are what I would describe as male and when it comes to what gender I identify with is also male, but it could be different.

      As for trans people... Their sex organs are... variable so their sex should reflect that variability. What do we use.. percentages?

      If you say youre a woman, that's enough for me, it's not as if Im going to go check down there. Im too old to go check you down there. Too bad we didn't meet decades ago. I was very found of checking out the sex of people back in the day.

      Ahhh those were the days, my friend. I thought they would never end.

      You didn't take any of the brown acid at woodstock, did ya? That would not have been ideal.  
    9. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -  

      woodstock was a teeny bit before my time. When I heard about it, I wasn't even a hippy freak yet. Let's say that I was a wanna be hippy freak.

      Never touched the hard drugs.
      That's code for I wasn't a pot head until much later.

      Now, I smoke so much that I don't know if i smoke too much.
    10. MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -   edited September 16
      @piloteer

      "There's is no biological study that can demonstrate how women and girls are genetically predisposed to liking pink dresses and ironing boards. Obviously those are social constructions."

      I always find it interesting what created those constructions.  For example, why did women supposedly liking pink items ever become a social construction?  Is it because they have a natural liking of lighter colors, did society or marketing all of a sudden just suggest women like pink and it was just accepted. Why do we market that women like pink and why did thag ever come about? Psychologically women wear reddish makeup because that is attractive to men.

      "So, because of a lack of any better term to describe that phenom, the word gender will be used in the interim. "

      I guess my issue is that no one ever seems to question whether someone's gender identity follows along the lines of social construction, we are told to just accept how anyone identifies.
      If gender really is a social construction, for a biological man to identify a female (gender) should we ask them whether they like pink, ironing, other tasks societal construction identifies as female in order to determine if they meet that criteria?

      Are we supposed to determine how male and female every activity/choice a human makes in order to determine where someone lies on a gender spectrum? Often if we stereotype activities to men or women that is deemed as sexist, but apparently identifying your gender based on those constructions is not; it's brave, ect...quite confusing. Identifying all social constructions on a spectrum would be very subjective and I think really makes the term gender pretty meaningless.  I accept people are individuals and have different personalities and preferences. I'm not sure why we just don't leave it at that.

      Lastly I'd say
      We are told sex and gender are two separate ideas, but that becomes confusing when the terms man, woman, male, female can be used to describe either, or at least they currently do.
      piloteer
    11. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16

      I find always find it interesting what created those constructions.  For example, why did women supposedly liking pink items ever become a social construction?  Is it because they have a natural liking of lighter colors, did society or marketing all of a sudden just suggest women like pink and it was just accepted. Why do we market that women like pink and why did thag ever come about?
      Nature and nurture, both, not necessarily in the same proportions.
      Back in the day, women stayed at home whilst men used their burly muscles to hunt, fight, repeat. Women could afford to make things cute. Men went out where it was really quite dangerous.

      Im talking about back in the day... like last week.
      piloteer
    12. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
      Blastcat said:

      Im talking about back in the day... like last week.

      I had bear sushi that I prepared myself last week. And then I rode home on my saber toothed eagle. This week, I was called a sexist pig because I told you about what I did last week. 
    13. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
      @MichaelElpers

      Pink is in fashion for men on the golf course. I think fashion and status symbols play into how social constructions are made. This is getting into the topic of llinguistics which entails history, philosophy, cultural studies, and politics to decipher how a word, phrase, or even social constructions came to be.  Some question whether society influences language, or if it is the language that is influencing society.  

      As far as any social rule that says we must abide by strict rules governing pronouns, I'd say that's not very enforceable, and rules should be only enforced according to the law, not social views. I would apologize if I were to misappropriate a pronoun, but I'm not gonna feel like I need to sing the entire theme to the rocky horror picture show to someone just to prove I'm not homophobic.      
    14. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -   edited September 16
      Blastcat said:

      woodstock was a teeny bit before my time. When I heard about it, I wasn't even a hippy freak yet. Let's say that I was a wanna be hippy freak.

      Never touched the hard drugs.
      That's code for I wasn't a pot head until much later.

      Now, I smoke so much that I don't know if i smoke too much.
      I get what you're saying. And by that, I mean, I have no idea what you're saying because I'm rolling my last four brain cells up into a j-bar, and I don't even remember who you are. I loved LSD and mushrooms when I was in my twenties. I don't often use those as much anymore though. My kids tend to be a real buzz kill.   
    15. MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 895 Pts   -   edited September 16
      @piloteer

      I'm not saying we should govern the rules of pronouns, but if our language is going to say gender is based in social construct but currently we are supposed to accept anyone's identity whether their identity conforms to social constructual norms then that cannot be the true definition of gender.
      If people want to say it's based in social construct they should follow their own rules or not be offended when others determine their pronouns based on their personal views of the construct as their subjective view is just as valid.
      piloteer
    16. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16
      @piloteer

      I'm not saying we should govern the rules of pronouns, but if our language is going to say gender is based in social construct but currently we are supposed to accept anyone's identity whether their identity conforms to social constructual norms then that cannot be the true definition of gender.
      If people want to say it's based in social construct they should follow their own rules or not be offended when others determine their pronouns based on their personal views of the construct as their subjective view is just as valid.

      The problem begins when a person's self-identity is being degraded, attacked, shat upon, denied, cancelled. Trans people go through hell already, They don't need people crapping all over them.

      If a person identifies as a woman, that's it. It would be very impolite, hurtful and demeaning to refuse her self-label. People do have feelings. And in the case of trans people, those feelings are exceedingly raw. We should not pretend that there are no transphobic people who take pleasure in putting them down.

      It's easy to just use a pronoun instead of an other one, come on.
      The effect on the trans person is huge. Everyone needs to be accepted, and not using their preferred pronoun is a sure way to signal to a trans person that she is NOT accepted, nor acceptable. Some religious people think of them as "Abominations". It's in the bible. So they have no problem.

      We can't pretend that a large proportion of Christians do not accept these people, and damn them to hell. They literally damn them to hell.

      Im quite sure that even trans people would not mind to be called anything in a perfect world. Pronouns... who cares.

      By the way, you can call me by any pronoun that you like. Im not a trans, so I haven't gone through hell about gender. But I can understand the pain of those who have and have to suffer even more due to hate, fear, ignorance or whatever.

      Trans people are people and truly deserve our respect as people. And their pain is real. We should respect the pain. That's physical pain if there are operations, and emotional pain when they get rejected and mocked. It aint easy. Ask any trans person.

      We would not attack a cancer victim for having cancer. Nobody decides to be a trans without a HUGE need. They all know what they will be going through. Part of being a trans is psychotherapy. No shrink, no trans.
      piloteer
    17. exconexcon 279 Pts   -  

      So, just for clarity, do you believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman?
      Hello again, M:

      The point of my post is that what I believe doesn't matter.  It's NOT my freedom we're talking about here.  It's hers, and if she wants to declare herself a woman or an oak tree, and demands nothing of us in return, then she absolutely has the right to do so..  And it ain't none of my business..

      excon

      Blastcatpiloteer
    18. BlastcatBlastcat 261 Pts   -   edited September 16
      excon said:

      So, just for clarity, do you believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman?
      Hello again, M:

      The point of my post is that what I believe doesn't matter.  It's NOT my freedom we're talking about here.  It's hers, and if she wants to declare herself a woman or an oak tree, and demands nothing of us in return, then she absolutely has the right to do so..  And it ain't none of my business..

      excon


      AMEN
      Call me the lizard queen
    19. exconexcon 279 Pts   -  

      So, just for clarity, do you believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman?
      ----------------------------------------

      Hello again, M:

      The point of my post is that what I believe doesn't matter.  It's NOT my freedom we're talking about here.  It's hers, and if she wants to declare herself a woman or an oak tree, and demands nothing of us in return, then she absolutely has the right to do so..  And it ain't none of my business..

      excon

      PS>  I dunno what's going on with this software..
    20. SwolliwSwolliw 1209 Pts   -  
      @CYDdharta
      Should a transgender rɑpist be put in a men's or a woman's prison?
      Transgender woman who rɑped a 15-year-old girl could be moved to a female prison under proposed law

      A transgender rapist should be put in a transgender prison.

      piloteer
    21. piloteerpiloteer 1401 Pts   -  
       @MichaelElpers

      I think what you're saying is that trans people will use the word gender like it is a social construction, then they'll assign themselves a pronoun and immediately follow in accordance to the traditional gender constructs of that pronoun as if to say those pronouns are still relevant. That probably does happen, but often trans people are gender neutral, or gender fluid (which are the modern terms for androgynous, which means to not be of a discernable gender).

      I think the whole trans movement is to highlight those traditional social constructions, and then break them down, but not necessarily in that order. In the end, the hope is for men to feel comfortable wearing anything a women would be comfortable wearing in public, but the man doing so would feel just as comfortable wearing it in public. And women will one day feel comfortable wearing a suit and tie. 

      When we bring back the linguistics element, this demonstrates how social norms, and even political and social views dictates fashion. But here again, there's always a question of whether  art (In this case fashion) imitates life, or life imitates art. 

      In the end, I will do whatever I can to respect the feelings of those who question their own identity, or question the validity of any social categorization. I myself have no sympathy for social categorizations and therefore welcome any movements that highlight their repressive nature and aim to neutralize them. The only rules we should feel we need to abide by without being intimidated is the law. All other cultural, social, or political ideals of proper social behavior are just expectations to abide by even more "unwritten" rules aside from the already objective legal obligation to the law. So they're just more rules on top of other rules. Those kind of rules should be disregarded and broken in spite of social attitudes. I'm never in the mood to have to brush up on the local lingo when I'm far to preoccupied with making sure I'm not violating the law in any way (or at least not letting others see me breaking laws). Graffiti is art!!!!!              
      Blastcat
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