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Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

Debate Information

It’s pretty easy to utter these words but to me they’re just noise uttered and repeated  without ever really thinking about what it means to utter these words 

The standard response I expect and the standard one recommended by the mob is “ how dare you bring this topic up that’s racist “ this is a childish attempt to shut down dialogue and one I predict certain members will resort to 

How exactly do they matter? Do they matter to the sizable and disproportionate amount black criminals incarcerated in American jails if so how?

It’s up to parents to turn their children into moral agents so who is to blame for the massive amount of black criminality in the US is it society ( the usual cry) or the parents? 

How do the black lives of children dying of starvation in Africa matter ? In what way do they matter or is it  just something uttered so as not to incur the wrath of hysterical mob who look for any disagreement with their narrative so they descend and screech and howl for full agreement or else 

Incidentally this ever so popular slogan was tossed at me by a member during the week as in “ black lives really do matter “ yet he couldn’t explain which lives and why?

The life of people like George Flyod meant nothing to me the manner in which he died did , but his life leading up to his death was pathetic and put many people through misery 

The only lives that matter to most us if we exercise a modicum of honesty are those closet to us everything else is just waffle 

Blastcat
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  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: We are asked to read everyone's mind to discount racism.


    Dee asks these two questions:
    Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

    1. It isn't good to have two questions to debate. Right off the bat, there are two topics instead of just one, so we now have the potential for twice as much confusion and half the focus.
    2. Dee asks us to speculate about people's motivation in using the phrase. I cannot read minds, nor will I pretend to read minds. This request is silly.

    3. Therefore, Dee asks us to read minds, puts the honesty of people who use the phrase, perhaps implying that those who do are liars. This is a typical ad hominem or "to the person" tactic to put someone in disrepute instead of dealing with the racial injustice that the whole word knows exists in the USA. To attempt to minimize racism is itself indicative of racism. His argument is also an attempted poisoning of the well. The reasoning goes like this:

    " If I can put the motivation for using the phrase black lives matter into disrepute, by insinuating that people are not honest when they use the phrase, then the idea of black lives matter might not be taken as seriously"

    or

    " People who say black lives matter are hypocrites, so don't concern yourself with that whole movement, it's hypocritical, too"

    or

    " I promote racism, so I hate black lives matter with a passion, but I don't want to come out and be accused of racism, so I will try to be sneaky about it .. I wont come out and say I promote racism, I'll just do it and hope that people wont notice my bias."

    DeePlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    Argument topic : Blastats inability to comprehend basic questions 



    Dee asks these two questions:
    Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

    Because people like you only recognise American black lives which is why last week you fled when questioned on the starving in Africa 

    1. It isn't good to have two questions to debate. Right off the bat, there are two topics instead of just one, so we now have the potential for twice as much confusion and half the focus. 

    It’s for clarification which I’ve just done as according to you some black lives (American ) mean more than others , so tell me how do black lives in Africa matter to you 


    2. Dee asks us to speculate about people's motivation in using the phrase. I cannot read minds, nor will I pretend to read minds. This request is silly. 

    I asked what do people mean when they say as in people like you who mouth it but couldn’t explain why you use it 

    3. Therefore, Dee asks us to read minds, puts the honesty of people who use the phrase, perhaps implying that those who do are liars. 

    I’ve called no one liars I’m asking what do they mean you said you don’t know because you cannot read minds , I’ve implied nothing 

    This is a typical ad hominem or "to the person"

    No it’s not , it’s a simple question you refuse to answer so you dishonestly invent a strawman to mask your lack of an intelligible response 

    tactic to put someone in disrepute instead of dealing with the racial injustice that the whole word knows exists in the USA. To attempt to minimize racism is itself indicative of racism.


    I have not “mimimised “ racism I asked you to explain what people mean you admit you don’t know any you also admit you do not know why you say it so end of argument 

    I predicted you would play the racism card and the Ad Hominem card , so you’re  to your usual whining 


    Ps …..I note you fled from my destruction of your nonsense on the hijab and also ( wisely) you withdrew from your utter mess of a contention regards the term “fact” …….
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

     The reasoning goes like this:

    " If I can put the motivation for using the phrase black lives matter into disrepute, by insinuating that people are not honest when they use the phrase, then the idea of black lives matter might not be taken as seriously" 

    No I didn’t say that or imply it , I asked you to explain what you mean when you utter it so your deflection and strawmen fail again 

    " People who say black lives matter are hypocrites, so don't concern yourself with that whole movement, it's hypocritical, too"

    Nor did I say that but do continue lying it clearly shows how low you are 

    " I promote racism, so I hate black lives matter with a passion, but I don't want to come out and be accused of racism, so I will try to be sneaky about it .. I wont come out and say I promote racism, I'll just do it and hope that people wont notice my bias."


    I detest racism so your filthy lie is exposed yet again , I predicted you would play the race card and there you go all because you cannot answer what it means when trolls like you utter “ black lives matter “ you still cannot answer why’s that?


    Also you were the one who boasted several weeks ago “ Jews fully deserved the Holocaust as they were parasites on the German economy “ 

    So your latest attempt at trolling fails 


    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

     Blastats argument is also an attempted poisoning of the well. The reasoning goes like this:

    " I couldn’t answer Dee’s question he keeps catching me out so let’s play the racism card , I cannot keep using the Ad Hominem one everyone is on to that one “


    ” Jesus I hope Dee doesn’t bring up the fact I detest Jews I shouldn’t have told him they got their just deserts in the Holocaust  …..hope he’s forgotten “


    Blastcat
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2144 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Blastcat said:

    Dee asks these two questions:
    Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

    1. It isn't good to have two questions to debate. Right off the bat, there are two topics instead of just one, so we now have the potential for twice as much confusion and half the focus.
    2. Dee asks us to speculate about people's motivation in using the phrase. I cannot read minds, nor will I pretend to read minds. This request is silly.

    3. Therefore, Dee asks us to read minds, puts the honesty of people who use the phrase, perhaps implying that those who do are liars. This is a typical ad hominem or "to the person" tactic to put someone in disrepute instead of dealing with the racial injustice that the whole word knows exists in the USA. To attempt to minimize racism is itself indicative of racism. His argument is also an attempted poisoning of the well. The reasoning goes like this:

    " If I can put the motivation for using the phrase black lives matter into disrepute, by insinuating that people are not honest when they use the phrase, then the idea of black lives matter might not be taken as seriously"

    or

    " People who say black lives matter are hypocrites, so don't concern yourself with that whole movement, it's hypocritical, too"

    or

    " I promote racism, so I hate black lives matter with a passion, but I don't want to come out and be accused of racism, so I will try to be sneaky about it .. I wont come out and say I promote racism, I'll just do it and hope that people wont notice my bias."

    Hmm, interesting here how blascat said at the beginning of his paragraph he cannot read minds and nor will he try to pretend to and yet then tries to read Dee's mind at the end of his post.



    DeePlaffelvohfen



  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    Hmm, interesting here how blascat said at the beginning of his paragraph he cannot read minds or pretend to and yet then tries to read Dee's mind at the end of his post. 


    Isn’t it just Z , I’m afraid this is a game he has being called out on several times , he will rarely debate a point fairly as every argument he makes is an emotional one and if you do not agree he flies into a rage and tags it an Ad Hominem 

    He has been asked by me and 7 others if he could explain what he thought Ad Hominem meant in his own words he refused to answer. I note you asked him a few very simple clarifying questions and he is doing his usual deflecting 

    Questions regards race are to much for him and he calls everyone who disagrees with his assertions on such “racist “ , he asks people to obey his list of rules and to apologise if they don’t agree with his emotional outbursts , I treat him like the child he is 
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne Gold Premium Member 1374 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: Do people really mean it when they say All lives matter? Or is it only some lives matter?

    @Dee

    'It’s pretty easy to utter these words but to me they’re just noise uttered and repeated  without ever really thinking about what it means to utter these words.'




    Your argument does not overcome its own criticism.

    The point of "Black lives Matters" is that black lives should be treated the same as every other life. So, yes, of course this poor child's life matters but not because of the color of his skin.
    ZeusAres42
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @SkepticalOne

    Your argument does not overcome its own criticism.

    It’s not an argument as such it’s an observation 

    The point of "Black lives Matters" is that black lives should be treated the same as every other life.

    Yes I know that 

    So, yes, of course this poor child's life matters but not because of the color of his skin.

    But to say a “life matters” means what exactly? How does this child’s life matter to you ? This is like a meaningless mantra governments chant and listeners think something profound has just being said.

    The lives that matter to us are those closet to us ,  most people say Black Lives Matter yet  after looking at the image I supplied the words uttered that “ black lives matter “ are immediately forgotten by most that’s how much they matter 

    The life of George Flyod did not matter a whit to me the way he died was criminal with that I agree  , but if you asked me would I care about the life of low level scum bag like him , no I wouldn’t 
    Blastcat
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne Gold Premium Member 1374 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Dee

    The life of George Flyod did not matter a whit to me the way he died was criminal with that I agree  , but if you asked me would I care about the life of low level scum bag like him , no I wouldn’t 

    Hindsight is 20/20. It is easy claim indifference to the life of someone we don't personally know who we find, after the fact, has made poor choices throughout his life. The thing is, it is the job of police to be the the opposite of indifferent to every life. When this doesn't happen consistently, it shows gross flaws in the system.

    The rule of law is that the same rules apply to everyone. There should not be one rule for the rich and another for the poor, one rule for powerful and another for the powerless, and different rules for different race, ethnicity, religion, etc. Regardless of what you or I may think about George Floyd, his death and many other unjustifiable deaths of people of color demonstrate the rules are not the same for everyone. 

    That is the point of BLM: every life should have equal value in the eyes of law enforcement and in the eye of the courts. It is a stance against racial inequality.


    As I said at the announcement of my nomination, those norms require that like cases be treated alike. That there not be one rule for Democrats and another for Republicans; One rule for friends and another for foes; One rule for the powerful and another for the powerless; One rule for the rich and another for the poor; Or different rules depending upon one's race or ethnicity.  -Merrick Garland.
    ZeusAres42
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    You must keep it in context though...  The slogan "Black lives matter" is a statement about racism (and largely in the context of US politics and institutions, though it migrated to a few places around the globe since 2019), and it never was about the purported value of "life"... 

    So pictures of starving african children is irrelevant with regard to the "BLM" slogan... 
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Dee

    The life of George Flyod did not matter a whit to me the way he died was criminal with that I agree  , but if you asked me would I care about the life of low level scum bag like him , no I wouldn’t 


    We wont be able to have Dee agree that a person's life matters when he call that person a low level scum bag.
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    Hindsight is 20/20. It is easy claim indifference to the life of someone we don't personally know who we find, after the fact, has made poor choices throughout his life

    Indifference is my reaction  to most lives that are lost as I have no personal stake in them. Look at the language you use “has made poor choices” , would you in fairness use the same language if it was your pregnant wife he held at gunpoint in front of her terrified kids? 


    . The thing is, it is the job of police to be the the opposite of indifferent to every life. When this doesn't happen consistently, it shows gross flaws in the system.

    Yes but groups like BLM are regressive and divisive , look at the debate on here on a related matter regards the teaching of CRT  in American schools I printed off a quote from one of the recommended books for CRT in schools which is an outrageous slur on all whites 

    Groups like BLM and others continuously accuse and lump all whites into the category racist , one famous book regarding race matters in the US makes the ridiculous claims whites are not entitled to talk about racism , remarks like this are par for the course 

    The rule of law is that the same rules apply to everyone. There should not be one rule for the rich and another for the poor, one rule for powerful and another for the powerless, and different rules for different race, ethnicity, religion, etc. Regardless of what you or I may think about George Floyd, his death and many other unjustifiable deaths of people of color demonstrate the rules are not the same for everyone. 



    That is the point of BLM: every life should have equal value in the eyes of law enforcement and in the eye of the courts. It is a stance against racial inequality.

    I’ve nothing against fighting racial inequality , there is a whole conversation needs to be had in the US regards the staggering incarceration rates of black Americans and the glorification and  normalising   of criminality in black ghettos where a whole culture has grown up around criminality and of course behind it all is the big bad white man who lazily  gets the blame for black criminality 



    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Well yes then maybe we should say “ American  Black Lives Matter “ ………but I don’t think they would like that ……
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    We wont be able to have Dee agree that a person's life matters when he call that person a low level scum bag. 

    Wow ! Yet another attempt to glorify “gentle George “ 

    “We won’t be able “ the  sacred “we”. Well that’s me I call a man that puts a gun to a pregnant woman’s stomach with his homies a low level scum bag what’s your preferred PC wording if it was your wife ? Bet you refuse to answer yet again?

    Maybe you could use a variant of what another user suggested “ he made some poor choices “ …..you see buddy where I come from we call a spade a spade , I have no time for this constant walking on egg shells least some over sensitive snowflake like you takes offence 
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    Well yes then maybe we should say “ American  Black Lives Matter “ ………
    Meh... It still would be open to interpretations about the "value of life" and would still lack direct reference to the problem they actually want to address; systemic racism... 
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Meh... It still would be open to interpretations about the "value of life" and would still lack direct reference to the problem they actually want to address; systemic racism... 

     I’m not a big fan of BLM they seem to tar mostly everyone with the one brush if your white it seems you’re racist 
  • I remember having a similar discussion here on another debate in the past with @Happy_Killbot, and we both agreed that there is a public perception regarding BLM, and one way in which we could solve this is by rephrasing BLM to BLAM I.E that is "Black Lives Also Matter." I thought this response was brilliant. 




  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    I’m not a big fan of BLM, they seem to tar mostly everyone with the one brush.........

    Ironic, isn't it?  ;)

    SkepticalOneZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Plaffelvohfen

    LOL ……I tar just BLM with the one brush and thats the organisation itself they target all whites as being guilty as charged as in we are all racist which is a sweeping generalistion and totally unfair 
    BLM has increased racial tensions and has become more divided in itself , to me it’s divisive favorability of the movement has dropped 14 points since last summer

    I of course can only go on what I read and see in media it would be interesting to live in the US for a while and see what the populations opinions were on BLM as I’m reading they started out on a high but now are dropping weekly







  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @ZeusAres42

    I like that it’s a lot better …..






  • @Dee

    would you in fairness use the same language if it was your pregnant wife he held at gunpoint in front of her terrified kids? 

    A better question might be is 'does having a criminal record warrant execution on the street?  Of course not. Your focus on Floyd's history is a distraction, my friend.

    Yes but groups like BLM are regressive and divisive , look at the debate on here on a related matter regards the teaching of CRT  in American schools

    I don't agree with your assessment of BLM. I think there is a lot of rhetoric and propaganda (even) to make BLM seem that way.  CRT as a right wing talking point is a good example of this: CRT is not, and never has been, taught in American Public schools. Plus, CRT existed long before BLM. Ask yourself why would any honest person would suggest otherwise.


    Timpa was an exception to the rule while Floyd was not. Timpa and and Floyd are not analogous situations.

    I’ve nothing against fighting racial inequality , there is a whole conversation needs to be had in the US regards the staggering incarceration rates of black Americans

    Agreed. That is the point of BLM.

    BlastcatPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: Zeus thinks that I am trying to read people's minds

    Blastcat said:

    Dee asks these two questions:
    Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

    1. It isn't good to have two questions to debate. Right off the bat, there are two topics instead of just one, so we now have the potential for twice as much confusion and half the focus.
    2. Dee asks us to speculate about people's motivation in using the phrase. I cannot read minds, nor will I pretend to read minds. This request is silly.

    3. Therefore, Dee asks us to read minds, puts the honesty of people who use the phrase, perhaps implying that those who do are liars. This is a typical ad hominem or "to the person" tactic to put someone in disrepute instead of dealing with the racial injustice that the whole word knows exists in the USA. To attempt to minimize racism is itself indicative of racism. His argument is also an attempted poisoning of the well. The reasoning goes like this:

    " If I can put the motivation for using the phrase black lives matter into disrepute, by insinuating that people are not honest when they use the phrase, then the idea of black lives matter might not be taken as seriously"

    or

    " People who say black lives matter are hypocrites, so don't concern yourself with that whole movement, it's hypocritical, too"

    or

    " I promote racism, so I hate black lives matter with a passion, but I don't want to come out and be accused of racism, so I will try to be sneaky about it .. I wont come out and say I promote racism, I'll just do it and hope that people wont notice my bias."

    Hmm, interesting here how blascat said at the beginning of his paragraph he cannot read minds and nor will he try to pretend to and yet then tries to read Dee's mind at the end of his post.




    I am talking about what I think the reasoning might be, not what he is thinking.
    I don't pretend to read minds.

    I can, however, interpret what people write and what it can possibly mean.
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @SkepticalOne

    A better question might be is 'does having a criminal record warrant execution on the street?  Of course not. Your focus on Floyd's history is a distraction, my friend.


    Well in fairness I thought my question was pretty reasonable as I’ve heard all the labels applied to Chauvin and the names  he was called and rightfully so , my question is still why use different language when it comes to Floyd as in “  “has made poor choices”


    I don't agree with your assessment of BLM. 

    I didn’t think you would 


    I think there is a lot of rhetoric and propaganda (even) to make BLM seem that way.

    Really? Maybe you should read how the a fair proportion of black people who took part in the civil rights movement feel about BLM 


      CRT as a right wing talking point is a good example of this: CRT is not, and never has been, taught in American Public schools

    I’m actually talking with another regards CRT on site


    Plus, CRT existed long before BLM. Ask yourself why would any honest person would suggest otherwise.


    I don’t know how long CRT has been about , I think it would be a sad day for the US if this tripe was taught in American schools


    Timpa was an exception to the rule while Floyd was not. Timpa and and Floyd are not analogous situations.


    Agreed. That is the point of BLM.


    How are they going about that ? Also how is there concerns about police reform being addressed ?

  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    I am talking about what I think the reasoning might be, not what he is thinking. 

    But that’s exactly what you did in your quotes as in you put down in quotes what my possible thinking was all because you’re a spineless individual who had no arguments to offer so maliciously invented a pile of c-rap


    I don't pretend to read minds.

    Your hate piece says otherwise 

    I can, however, interpret what people write and what it can possibly mean.

    Why not just ask them instead of making up a pile of malicious nonsense?
    Blastcat
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne Gold Premium Member 1374 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Dee

    Well in fairness I thought my question was pretty reasonable as I’ve heard all the labels applied to Chauvin and the names  he was called and rightfully so , my question is still why use different language when it comes to Floyd as in “  “has made poor choices”

    The action that brought both Chauvin and Floyd to our attention belonged to Chauvin. The fact that Chauvin has a history of brutality is relevant to the discussion.

    I don’t know how long CRT has been about , I think it would be a sad day for the US if this tripe was taught in American schools

    No one that I know of is trying to get CRT into public schools - it is a type of legal analysis that would be out of place outside some type of legal setting.

    How are they going about that ? Also how is there concerns about police reform being addressed ?

    Who is 'they'? BLM is a decentralized movement - not some type of cabal. 

    Plaffelvohfen
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne


    The action that brought both Chauvin and Floyd to our attention belonged to Chauvin. The fact that Chauvin has a history of brutality is relevant to the discussion.


    My question was about language usage 


    No one that I know of is trying to get CRT into public schools - it is a type of legal analysis that would be out of place outside some type of legal setting.


    Well why then has the dreadful book Not my idea that’s from one of its main mouthpieces been put forward to be recommended reading in American schools?


    Who is 'they'? BLM is a decentralized movement - not some type of cabal. 


    “They “ of course is BLM , have you not read their goals? My question was in relation to those 

    Plaffelvohfen
  • @Dee


    My question was about language usage 

    If Chauvin had been the victim his history might have been summarized as 'bad choices' too. 

    Well why then has the dreadful book Not my idea that’s from one of its main mouthpieces been put forward to be recommended reading in American schools?

    You give me too much credit assuming I know what book (or 'main mouthpiece') you're referring to. 

    They “ of course is BLM , have you not read their goals? My question was in relation to those 

    I think you missed my point. So far as I know, BLM isn't a person or group of people. It is a leaderless social movement. Who is writing these goals you're referring to?

    PlaffelvohfenDee
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @SkepticalOne

    If Chauvin had been the victim his history might have been summarized as 'bad choices' too. 


    I think if Chauvin had held a pregnant woman at gunpoint in front of her own children it wouldn’t have been called “ bad choices “ somehow do you?


    You give me too much credit assuming I know what book (or 'main mouthpiece') you're referring to…….

    No worries ….

     At least 30 schools recommended that students should read Not My Idea, a children's book that called racism "a white person's problem and we are all caught up in it".

    Its author, Anastasia Higginbotham, has argued that "any place where there are white people has violent white supremacy embedded into it" and is not shy about labelling her discussions on race as "CRT".


    I think you missed my point. So far as I know, BLM isn't a person or group of people

    Really? Yet they have their own websites stating there aims. Are you saying it’s just a slogan like “black power “ etc ,etc , ?


    . It is a leaderless social movement.

    Really ? So tell me then why it’s leaders met Joe Biden and his team in June 

    It had also has over 40 chapters in the US 


    Who is writing these goals you're referring to?

    They are , the same goals they discussed with Biden and his team no doubt 






     

    Plaffelvohfen
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne Gold Premium Member 1374 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Dee

    I think if Chauvin had held a pregnant woman at gunpoint in front of her own children it wouldn’t have been called “ bad choices “ somehow do you?

    If that were true and Floyd had brutally killed Chauvin on the street for malicious and unrelated reasons we wouldn't be focused on Chauvin's previous transgressions. 

    Focusing on Floyd's past unrelated to his murder is implicitly justifying Chauvin's despicable actions. 

     At least 30 schools recommended that students should read Not My Idea, a children's book that called racism "a white person's problem and we are all caught up in it".

    Its author, Anastasia Higginbotham, has argued that "any place where there are white people has violent white supremacy embedded into it" and is not shy about labelling her discussions on race as "CRT".
    I will need to look into this before weighing in.

    Really? Yet they have their own websites stating there aims. Are you saying it’s just a slogan like “black power “ etc ,etc , ?

    And I suppose all these websites say exactly the same thing and there is no areas of disagreement whatsoever? I don't think that is the case.
    They are , the same goals they discussed with Biden and his team no doubt 

    The un-named 'leaders of BLM' (who met with Biden) are writing the goals of BLM? Ok, if you say so.

    PlaffelvohfenDee
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 484 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Dee

    Let me say right now that we sympathize with the victim, no matter their past (Hitler wasn't a victim before you bring that up). We sympathized with Floyd, despite his past. We felt his death was wrongful, so we advocated for change because of his death. If it were Chauvin that was killed, there'd be a lot of police protection bills in Congress, no doubt.
    SkepticalOneZeusAres42Plaffelvohfen
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 951 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    In 2013, Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi formed the Black Lives Matter Network. Garza described the network as an online platform that existed to provide activists with a shared set of principles and goals. Local Black Lives Matter chapters are asked to commit to the organization's list of guiding principles but operate without a central structure or hierarchy.

    The reason they set it up this way is so they can take all the credit and non of the blame.
    Having no official hierarchy or central structure means they can get put of any negative reaction..."not all members believe that, or that's just one person."
    However there's an issue when the movement is causing provocation of violence.  Additionally the website states they want destruction of the nuclear family. 

    Thr movement uses a common tactic, create a movement with a saying that 99% of people agree on its face but use it to push policy less commonly accepted.  If you disagree, you're a racist stating Black Lives don't matter 
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Luigi7255

    Let me say right now that we sympathize with the victim, no matter their past (Hitler wasn't a victim before you bring that up)

    Do we? I don’t at all I’ve no sympathy for him , he was murdered by Chauvin he didn’t deserve to be murdered but I wouldn’t mourn his loss I’ve no sympathy for him no he was low life scum 

    Did you sympathise  when Bin Laden was killed?

    . We sympathized with Floyd, despite his past. 

    You did and others yes 

    We felt his death was wrongful, so we advocated for change because of his death. 

    His death was wrongful I agree 

    If it were Chauvin that was killed, there'd be a lot of Police protection bills in Congress, no doubt.

    But police have been killed by citizens so where’s the bills passed if your contention is true?
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 484 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    "Do we? I don’t at all I’ve no sympathy for him , he was murdered by Chauvin he didn’t deserve to be murdered but I wouldn’t mourn his loss I’ve no sympathy for him no he was low life scum "

    If you believe that he didn't deserve to be murdered, that's still sympathy.

    "Did you sympathise when Bin Laden was killed?"

    No, because he wasn't a victim, he was a terrorist and you're bringing a false equivalency on me.

    "You did and others yes"

    What?

    "
    But police have been killed by citizens so where’s the bills passed if your contention is true"

    There have already been police protections passed because of police deaths.
    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOneDee
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @SkepticalOne

    Focusing on Floyd's past unrelated to his murder is implicitly justifying Chauvin's despicable actions. 

    I’ve roundly condemned his actions so theres your first red herring 


    I will need to look into this before weighing in.

    That’s a good idea

    And I suppose all these websites say exactly the same thing and there is no areas of disagreement whatsoever? I don't think that is the case.

    I didn’t say that , I’ve never said there’s no disagreement 


    The un-named 'leaders of BLM' (who met with Biden) are writing the goals of BLM? Ok, if you say so.


    I never said that either 

    Maybe no one representing BLM met Biden and it’s all  made up. What do you think they talked about? BTW a heads up I read and am aware of what they discussed it’s all online , but sorry I rained on your parade 

    That’s 3 red herrings you’ve thrown at me do you always make up stuff and then claim that’s what your opponent is saying?

    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOne
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255




    If you believe that he didn't deserve to be murdered, that's still sympathy.

    You obviously never read the definition of sympathy 

    "Did you sympathise when Bin Laden was killed?"

    No, because he wasn't a victim, he was a terrorist and you're bringing a false equivalency on me.

    Ahh right so he was a terrorist so sympathy depends on the crime committed? I’ve no sympathy with a scum bag who put a gun to a pregnant woman’s stomach in front of her kids 

    "You did and others yes"

    What?

    Sympathise 

    "But police have been killed by citizens so where’s the bills passed if your contention is true"

    There have already been police protections passed because of police deaths.

    But I asked where are the bills can you name them?
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 484 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    [deleted]
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 951 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    Regard information critical race theory. It was endorced by nations largest teachers union.  Additional examples.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/yes-critical-race-theory-is-being-taught-in-public-schools/ar-AAM2t1V
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2144 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Blastcat said:
    Blastcat said:

    Dee asks these two questions:
    Do people really mean it when they say black lives matter? Or is it only some black lives matter?

    1. It isn't good to have two questions to debate. Right off the bat, there are two topics instead of just one, so we now have the potential for twice as much confusion and half the focus.
    2. Dee asks us to speculate about people's motivation in using the phrase. I cannot read minds, nor will I pretend to read minds. This request is silly.

    3. Therefore, Dee asks us to read minds, puts the honesty of people who use the phrase, perhaps implying that those who do are liars. This is a typical ad hominem or "to the person" tactic to put someone in disrepute instead of dealing with the racial injustice that the whole word knows exists in the USA. To attempt to minimize racism is itself indicative of racism. His argument is also an attempted poisoning of the well. The reasoning goes like this:

    " If I can put the motivation for using the phrase black lives matter into disrepute, by insinuating that people are not honest when they use the phrase, then the idea of black lives matter might not be taken as seriously"

    or

    " People who say black lives matter are hypocrites, so don't concern yourself with that whole movement, it's hypocritical, too"

    or

    " I promote racism, so I hate black lives matter with a passion, but I don't want to come out and be accused of racism, so I will try to be sneaky about it .. I wont come out and say I promote racism, I'll just do it and hope that people wont notice my bias."

    Hmm, interesting here how blascat said at the beginning of his paragraph he cannot read minds and nor will he try to pretend to and yet then tries to read Dee's mind at the end of his post.




    I am talking about what I think the reasoning might be, not what he is thinking.
    I don't pretend to read minds.

    I can, however, interpret what people write and what it can possibly mean.

    Right. I stand corrected. Blascat is not reading the person's mind. He is actually reading how they are reasoning in their head.
    Blastcat



  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -   edited November 2021

    The BLM is about racism not black lives, yet it has as one of its goals that the broader movement and its related organizations typically advocate against police violence toward black people as well as for various other policy changes considered to be related to black liberation.

    The main cause of violent black deaths in America is fellow blacks racism is a drop in the ocean in comparison

    If it were about black lives it’s focus would be logically placed on where black lives are mostly impacted such as health related issues , obesity , heart disease , diabetes , drug / alcohol abuses

    I think the slogan should by Black Lives Matter Only  When  Killed  By Whites …….a bit long I admit 

    Of course the big elephant in the room which no one will mention as it may cause “grave offence” is the shocking rate of unnecessary slaughter of blacks by blacks in black ghettos.

    I get it that blacks get a rough deal off cops , their biggest enemy is themselves unless people  have someone else to blame for the shocking carnage in black neighbourhoods



    Of course no marches or nationwide protests at the daily black slaughter of blacks by blacks why’s that ? No one taking to the black neighbour hoods with banners stating “ Black Lives Matter” because that totally misses the main target which is white police officers right?

    Black Americans are disproportionately impacted by gun violence. They experience 10 times the gun homicides, 18 times the gun assault injuries, and nearly 3 times the fatal police shootings of white Americans.

    Criminality is celebrated in music and black culture where the “man” is to blame for all their woes 

    So looking at the stats can people see blacks are targeting law enforcement which is responsible for the lowest figure in the list , what a surprise blame the man all the time for slaughter and carnage on a large scale carried out by blacks 



    The sensationalist slogan Black Lives Matter is used to stir up emotions and is a dreadful slur on those who work (mostly) to protect and serve others in society , it’s implications are basically saying that black lives are not important to non-black police officers and non-black people, in general. It is intended to stir up emotions and it does that successfully

    This is the very same as when the child sex abuse scandals broke in the Catholic Church and all priests were labeled child abusers 

    The phrase “black lives matter” is offensive to the many who work to protect the lives of those in predominantly black communities (and all communities) such as fire fighters, health care professionals, police officers, government administrators, lawmakers, soldiers and others because (with, admittedly, the exception of a few) they are trying very hard to protect and save the lives of black people (and all people) and some put their own lives at risk in doing so.

    There are specifically many black police officers who are killed in the line of duty due to violence in predominantly black communities. Their black lives matter, too.

    It’s about time American blacks stopped blaming the “man”  for all their woes and took some responsibility for cleaning up their own appalling mess , lashing out and blaming whites for all their problems is like something a big sulking child would do , a complete and utter waste of time 

    It’s like they are saying we are victims of the past and refuse to move on and of course to even air this topic leaves me open to the tyranny of the majority 

    Stanford Daily 

    For all its attention to the white supremacy and racism that ostensibly underlies these statistics, BLM pays far less heed to much more deadly forms of crime. In 2017, 304 Black people were killed by police. 9,908 were victims of homicide. A Department of Justice report found that “Based on victims’ perceptions of the offenders, the offender-to-population ratio shows that the percentage of violent incidents involving Black offenders (25%) was 2.1 times the percentage of Black persons in the population.” Homicide is also the leading cause of death among Black males age 1-44 years, which is not the case for any other ethnic group, but these numbers never seem to make it into BLM talking points.



    PlaffelvohfenBlastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    Right. I stand corrected. Blascat is not reading the person's mind. He is actually reading how they are reasoning in their head

    I’m thrilled he cleared that up …..this is from a guy who claims he values critical thinking above all else …….man oh man 
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: We all interpret what people write. IF I get it WRONG, please correct me.

    Hmm, interesting here how blascat said at the beginning of his paragraph he cannot read minds and nor will he try to pretend to and yet then tries to read Dee's mind at the end of his post.

    I am talking about what I think the reasoning might be, not what he is thinking.
    I don't pretend to read minds.

    I can, however, interpret what people write and what it can possibly mean.

    Right. I stand corrected. Blascat is not reading the person's mind. He is actually reading how they are reasoning in their head.

    I am not reading what is in their heads, Im READING what they write.
    We all have to interpret what others write.

    If I get it wrong, ok.
    I don't pretend to read minds or pretending to be perfect in my understanding or even perfect when I try to explain something.

    Lets get real here.
    Everyone has the opportunity to correct me if I am wrong.
    I hate to be wrong.

    I just go by what people write.
    I chastise people for telling me what I am thinking even when I tell them that they are wrong. I would not do the same. Im not THAT crazy, even though some members would love to portray me that way. I am rather sick of personal attacks. I expect nothing more from Dee, but I do hope that you don't play that silly game as well. I usually always stop wanting to engage with a person who shits on me too much. I don't LIKE to be harassed, as Dee has been doing for a few months now, and I don't like to be harassed by anyone. I'm here for honest, elevated conversations with honest people so that I might learn something. Being harassed only teaches me that , yep, I really don't like being harassed.

    I complained to the admins..They told me that harassment NEVER happens on this site. I thought that was hilarious. So, I posted about how we would have to self-police ourselves. Not many members are interested in STOPPING harassment. I think most members in here love to harass and insult people. They would need external control, such as what a good admin would do. To me, this site has become a place to study how people can be mean and utterly irrelevant. People are irrational. Even in a place where they should be most rational, constant attacks due to some triggering is the rule rather than the exception. What a pity.

    If you join the ranks of people who constantly on me, I WILL notice, Zeus, and then will not bother with your musings .. what a pity. I think that there are at least 5 people who are very close to being perfect "trolls" in here. I don't really want to do anything with these people.. yuk. Utterly obnoxious. Im under attack and you seem to encourage it. That's a huge strike against you. So, decide if you want to ever engage with me or not.

    We are not engaged to be married, so I wont cry if our relationship ends as it has with Dee and I.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat
    I'm here for honest, elevated conversations with honest people so that I might learn something.

    Sorry to say that if that's what you're after, this site isn't the place for that... Sounds like you're looking for a high cuisine, 7 course meal... But DI is a rural burger joint with loud, drunk and often obnoxious patrons and no doorman... 

    Blastcat
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: I have to agree but only to a point

    @Blastcat
    I'm here for honest, elevated conversations with honest people so that I might learn something.

    Sorry to say that if that's what you're after, this site isn't the place for that... Sounds like you're looking for a high cuisine, 7 course meal... But DI is a rural burger joint with loud, drunk and often obnoxious patrons and no doorman... 

    I am thinking that in some cases, the joint looks more like a drunken bar.
    Some people DO drink and post, after all.

    But perhaps, just maybe maybe, in some rare extremely abnormal situation, I might find one or two people who have a clue.
    And for now, I am the fresh meat, if someone else comes along the ADD might kick in.. and the drunken rabble might focus on the new guy .. I will be defending that new guy if he becomes under attack. I have actually noticed this pathology in here. Some abuser went from attacking anything and everything one member dared write to attacking anything and everything that i dare to write.

    Some new "squirrel" should come along to distract pretty soon.
    And then, DARE to disagree just once.

    That will seal the deal until yet ANOTHER new person falls into the trap.
    There are some people who just can't handle disagreements. So, they fight instead of using reason.

    QUESTION:

    Do you enjoy the insults?

    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Another whole post dedicated to attacking me , how many is that now ?
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    There are some people who just can't handle disagreements. So, they fight instead of using reason.

    Yes that’s you to a tee I’m afraid nearly every member has called you out on it . When you start actually debating instead of whining let’s us all know , you’re a very emotional person yet another 3 debates posted up by you wailing about your feelings 

    So why not use a bit of that reason you keep saying you use? Watch ….silence …..
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: When some abusers feel threatened, they abuse more

    Typical behaviour.

    The reasoning seems to be that complaining about abuse is an abuse.
    This is very much like a racist calling complaints about racism is racism.

    These people might feel that getting arrested for physical violence IS physical violence.

    The complaint is an opportunity to abuse some more.
    I am not very surprised by the attempted gaslighting which is a typical abusive tactic.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Sure, on occasion you'll find one or two who have a clue, but that's my point, it's the exception...

    Why would you go to a rural burger joint when you're looking for fresh lobster bisque?? It's like you're sitting in a McDonald and complain about the loud kids and the "unelevated" cuisine... Of course it's unelevated, greasy and loud, it's a McDo... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 4549 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    When some abusers feel threatened, they abuse more

    Yes which is why you posted up another 3 debates targeting me 

    Typical behaviour.

    Yet you keep repeating it 

    The reasoning seems to be that complaining about abuse is an abuse. 

    You’ve made over 200 false complaints ( all ignored) you’ve been warned about it yet you persist 


    This is very much like a racist calling complaints about racism racism.

    So don’t do it then…..why don’t you mute ….watch silence …..ignore …..watch silence …
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 403 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: I can enjoy a good conversation in a drunken bar, it's just that I have to avoid the drunks.

    @Blastcat

    Sure, on occasion you'll find one or two who have a clue, but that's my point, it's the exception...

    Why would you go to a rural burger joint when you're looking for fresh lobster bisque?? It's like you're sitting in a McDonald and complain about the loud kids and the "unelevated" cuisine... Of course it's unelevated, greasy and loud, it's a McDo... 

    I like my metaphor of the drunken bar better than a burger joint where families go to eat. People are generally way more respectful in family restaurants than they are when they drink to excess and desire a fight.

    All the rural burger joints I've been to have been really pleasant places to visit. People are VERY friendly there. However, I tend to avoid the bar next door unless it has a stellar reputation. But that's in REAL LIFE.

    Online, I study how people interact with each other, why they do, and if they use any sound reasoning. I also study people's reasoning to improve my own.

    I'm having a normal, if not quite extremely elevated conversation with you right now, no insults from either side, which to me is the bare minimum to get my attention.

    However, could you answer my question from above?

    Do you enjoy the insults in here?
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2838 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat
    QUESTION: Do you enjoy the insults?

    I mostly ignore them... Like I ignore the loud kids when I go to a burger joint... 

    SkepticalOneZeusAres42Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
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