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What Kyle Rittenhouse verdict should be?

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The famous trial, covered by major news media.  
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  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -   edited November 18
    Guilty. I don't understand why the judge dropped the gun charge. He should've at least been guilty of that.
    OakTownAZeusAres42dallased25
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • JungaDunoJungaJungaDunoJunga 46 Pts   -   edited November 18
    Argument Topic: Acquitted of all charges, Self-defense stands.

    He shot at people, attacking him, rushing him, when he was clearly running away. He wasn't provoking anyone, and was trying to do right by the community.

    17 years old, disregarding curfew, possesing a weapon as a minor, overstating his imporatance and traning as EMT provided are all irrelavant in the case of self-defense. All the video evidence shown from both prosecution and defense, only proves that Kyle was acting in self-defense. 

    He was trying to run away, and the mob was clearly trying to beat him to death. 

    The prosecution was being despearate trying to pin playing a video game for him trying to shoot people. Driving without a license, as morally lackster teenager.

    It's really the fault of the people in "mob mentality" trying to rush somebody who has a weapon, and is clearly are doing a poor job at execution.  
    all4acttdallased25
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -  
    @JungaDunoJunga

    So... You really think he should get off scot-free for still breaking a law?
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 18
    @Luigi7255

    Which law? Maybe there was a reason the judge dropped the gun charge.  He didn't break a law.

    Yes he should be not guilty on all charges.  I don't understand why people justify any mob action destroying the city, but someone putting out fires, cleaning vandalism, and helping injured, is evil.  He should have never been there.

    I'm glad a citizen with good intentions was able to defend himself against those with bad ones.
    Blastcatall4actt
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -   edited November 18
    @MichaelElpers

    There is a law in Illinois where a minor can't bring a gun across state borders. He crossed the state border from Illinois to Wisconsin while he was 17. It also is illegal to own a long gun under 18 in Illinois, which includes rifles, except in the case of hunting.
    OakTownAexcon
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @JungaDunoJunga

    So... You really think he should get off scot-free for still breaking a law?
    I think so, because the law he broke was unjust. A person should be able to own any gun they want, and take it wherever they want (so long as it is not private property).
    JungaDunoJungaOakTownA
  • piloteerpiloteer 1442 Pts   -  
    JungaDunoJunga said:
    " He was trying to do right by the community."


    "Trying to do right by the community" is not license to declare yourself a law enforcement officer. Especially since his actions tied up the efforts, time, and resources of law enforcement and EMTs. If he can't comprehend that those actions were obviously going to do nothing even close to "right by the community", but instead would exacerbate an already bad situation, he should have his liberty revoked.               
    ZeusAres42Luigi7255Happy_KillbotOakTownA
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @Luigi7255

    I believe the gun wasn't owned by Kyle. An eligible friend in Wisconsin purchased it for Kyle who was the owner until Kyle became legal to own.  I don't believe it was carried across state lines.

    Rittenhouse’s attorneys seized on a subsection of the Wisconsin law that states the ban on minors possessing dangerous weapons applies to minors armed with rifles or shotguns only if those weapons are short-barreled. The language stems from a bill that then-Republican Gov. Tommy Thompson signed in 1991.

    Kyle's weapon wasn't short barreled so it got dismissed.
    OakTownAall4actt
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;

    Here's a little hypothetical for you: If there was no gun in the hands of this young adult, do you think that he would have needed it?

    It seems to me that arming one's self is to make yourself a target, and that attracts the exact thing you are seeking to avoid.

    do you really think that "a citizen with good intentions" would go out of their way to find danger?
    ZeusAres42OakTownA
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    "I believe the gun wasn't owned by Kyle. An eligible friend in Wisconsin purchased it for Kyle who was the owner until Kyle became legal to own.  I don't believe it was carried across state lines."

     He lives in Illinois. Antioch, Illinois to be specific, so he did cross state lines.

    "Kyle's weapon wasn't short barreled so it got dismissed."

    "Short-Barreled Rifles. The AR-15 is the most popular long gun in American history. It is the short- and even ultra-short-barreled ARs in the form of the “modern pistol” or the short-barreled rifle..."

    So you're wrong there. He used an AR-15.
    OakTownA
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;

    Here's a little hypothetical for you: If there was no gun in the hands of this young adult, do you think that he would have needed it?

    It seems to me that arming one's self is to make yourself a target, and that attracts the exact thing you are seeking to avoid.

    do you really think that "a citizen with good intentions" would go out of their way to find danger?
    What kind of nutcase would target a guy because he had a gun? He was there to protect a business, and if he didn't have a gun with him he would have no way of defending either himself or the business from the violent looters.
    OakTownA
  • JungaDunoJungaJungaDunoJunga 46 Pts   -  
    He can probably be charged for gun violations, but that is no longer under consideration.  @Luigi7255
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @anarchist100 ;
    What kind of nutcase would target a guy because he had a gun? He was there to protect a business, and if he didn't have a gun with him he would have no way of defending either himself or the business from the violent looters.
    How about a person trying to protect their life?

    Have you watched the videos? There were lots of people there, and yet no one else seems to have landed the same fate as Kyle or his targets.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • JungaDunoJungaJungaDunoJunga 46 Pts   -  
    He didn't declate himself as law enforcement, he was just helping in a situation where law enforcement wasn't there to help. This whole violent protest, which already dealt property damange, was against law enforcement.  He is a brave a teenager who was trying to do good, and got into difficult situation, that required for him to use a weapon for self-defense. The law is on his side.

    "Trying to do right by the community" is not license to declare yourself a law enforcement officer. Especially since his actions tied up the efforts, time, and resources of law enforcement and EMTs. If he can't comprehend that those actions were obviously going to do nothing even close to "right by the community", but instead would exacerbate an already bad situation, he should have his liberty revoked.                @piloteer
    ZeusAres42all4actt
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -  
    @JungaDunoJunga

    Which is the thing I'm mad about. He should've been guilty of that, but somehow, the defense molded the law to acquit him of a law he so clearly violated.
    all4actt
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • JungaDunoJungaJungaDunoJunga 46 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @JungaDunoJunga

    Which is the thing I'm mad about. He should've been guilty of that, but somehow, the defense molded the law to acquit him of a law he so clearly violated.
    I haven't been following the reasons on why it was dropped, technicality of some sort? Or was it, since the gun was not under his name, and he was borrowing it from a friend, to support the community. He obviously didn't think of that consequences (him being a teenager, and following the lead of adults), when he ignored the role, but this is minor in comparison to capital case trial.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    What kind of nutcase would target a guy because he had a gun? He was there to protect a business, and if he didn't have a gun with him he would have no way of defending either himself or the business from the violent looters.
    How about a person trying to protect their life?

    Have you watched the videos? There were lots of people there, and yet no one else seems to have landed the same fate as Kyle or his targets.
    Kyle was the one who was targeted (probably because of his age), Grosskreutz pointed his gun at him and Rosenbaum and Huber both tried to attack him.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    Kyle was the one who was targeted (probably because of his age), Grosskreutz pointed his gun at him and Rosenbaum and Huber both tried to attack him.
    Age?

    You think his age was the reason he was targeted?

    Not because, idk, he was openly carrying an AR-15?

    You don't think that had anything to do with it?

    Violence attracts violence.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 440 Pts   -  
    @JungaDunoJunga

    It was dropped because they said that an AR-15 isn't a short-barreled gun, despite the fact that it is.
    all4actt
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255 ;

    US gun laws are notoriously complex, with more total laws just related to arms and accessories than China has laws total. The AR-15 is one of the most popular rifle-style weapons in the US because, and among other things, it is extremely customizable, modular, and easily modifiable. In this case, the rifle that Rittenhouse used was exempt from the Wisconsin law specifically because it was not short barreled.
    all4actt
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    Kyle was the one who was targeted (probably because of his age), Grosskreutz pointed his gun at him and Rosenbaum and Huber both tried to attack him.
    Age?

    You think his age was the reason he was targeted?

    Not because, idk, he was openly carrying an AR-15?

    You don't think that had anything to do with it?

    Violence attracts violence.
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    Someone had to defend the businesses, and the police certainly weren't going to.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    Someone had to defend the businesses, and the police certainly weren't.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    Someone had to defend the businesses, and the police weren't doing it.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    Someone had to defend the businesses, and the police weren't doing it.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 574 Pts   -  
    @anarchist100 ;
    He needed it to protect that business, also most of the other people protecting it had guns.
    I don't know how closely you are following this trial, but he really had no obligation to be there to "protect" anything.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/men-testify-they-never-asked-kyle-rittenhouse-to-protect-their-business/vi-AAQogdD ;

    Even if you claim that his actions were in the name of "defense of property" that would still do nothing to diminish the fact that his actions were careless and reckless.

    Guns are F***ing dangerous, and like it or hate it Kyle was an immature and undisciplined kid.
    Someone had to defend the businesses, and the police certainly weren't.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255

    He didn't cross with the gun because the gun was already in Wisconsin.  It was not owned by Kyle and was  eing stored in Wisconsin.

    The version kyle had was not ultra short barreled so that point is wrong.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @MichaelElpers ;

    Here's a little hypothetical for you: If there was no gun in the hands of this young adult, do you think that he would have needed it?

    It seems to me that arming one's self is to make yourself a target, and that attracts the exact thing you are seeking to avoid.

    do you really think that "a citizen with good intentions" would go out of their way to find danger?
    Regarding your first question.  You and I have no idea that's pure speculation, and regardless it doesn't matter. You can't blame people that aren't taking unlawful action.
    Why are you blaming a victim that wasn't doing something wrong. It be like: we'll if that woman wasn't wearing revealing clothing maybe she wouldn't have been raped.

    Arming ones self only makes you a target to those who chose to see you that way.  Additionally Kyle was already going against the rioters cleaning up vandalism and putting out fires which already put a target on him, which I suspect is part of the reason he carried that night.  Seems like he was right.

    It depends why theyre running into danger.  If there doing to help people or put out fires, I'd say running into danger is brave.

    I'm baffled why everyone is trying to figure out a way to view every intention of Kyle as bad (the person putting out fires) while simultaneously making justifications for all the rioters and people commiting unprovoked violence against him.

    "How about a person trying to protect their life?"

    So the person trying to protect their life from Kyle decided to chase him down while throwing stuff at him, calling him the n word, and previously threatening to kill him.  Yeah that's sounds like what I'd do if I was trying to avoid getting shot by someone with a gun 
    all4actt
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -  
    @piloteer

    "Trying to do right by the community" is not license to declare yourself a law enforcement officer. Especially since his actions tied up the efforts, time, and resources of law enforcement and EMTs. If he can't comprehend that those actions were obviously going to do nothing even close to "right by the community", but instead would exacerbate an already bad situation, he should have his liberty revoked."

    His actions only took up the time of law enforcement and EMTs because someone attacked him unprovoked.
    Why are we justifying the actions of unlawful people and blaming the lawful person?
    Rioters can go around and do whatever they want. If they end up attacking a kid putting out the fires , we'll that's also his fault, he shouldn't have been there.
    This is so backwards. 
    I will condemn the unlawful action and commend the people working to protect the community.
    all4actt
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @JungaDunoJunga

    What Kyle Rittenhouse verdict should be?


    Guilty, only in the home gun nuts would this question be asked 

    Argument Topic: One should not listen to FOX news 


    He shot at people, attacking him, rushing him, when he was clearly running away. He wasn't provoking anyone, and was trying to do right by the community.


    You mean he killed two people who tried to disarm him the first  according  to a witness, a man named Rosenbaum ( unarmed ) lunged at Rittenhouse and tried to take his gun. Rittenhouse fired four times at Rosenbaum, causing him to die shortly afterwards……resident Anthony M. Huber struck Rittenhouse in the shoulder with a skateboard and attempted to take his rifle. Rittenhouse fired at Huber once, fatally shooting him in the chest 

    That’s two men who tried to disarm him and he shot them dead 

    No one asked the “hero “ to defend the community he was a member of blue lives matter and his big ambition in life was to police people 

    His quote on his Tik Tok account …. , "Bruh I'm just tryna be famous."


    In addition to his participation as a youth police cadet in Lake County, his social media posts showed Rittenhouse was a staunch law-enforcement supporter who had posted tributes to officers killed in the line of duty in Chicago and the northern suburbs.

    Another social media account that appeared to belong to Rittenhouse suggests he was also a supporter of President Trump. The TikTok account, with just 25 followers, read "Trump 2020" with a U.S. flag next to it, and, "Bruh I'm just tryna be famous."

    In one video recorded in Kenosha before the shootings and posted on social media, a teen who identifies himself as "Kyle" explained that he went to the center of the city on Tuesday evening with the intention of assisting police in dealing with rioters.


    17 years old, disregarding curfew, possesing a weapon as a minor, overstating his imporatance and traning as EMT provided are all irrelavant in the case of self-defense. All the video evidence shown from both prosecution and defense, only proves that Kyle was acting in self-defense. 

    Nonsense , you haven’t a “right” to murder two unarmed people 

    He was trying to run away, and the mob was clearly trying to beat him to death

    How do you know they were going to beat him to death?


    The prosecution was being despearate trying to pin playing a video game for him trying to shoot people. Driving without a license, as morally lackster teenager.


    It's really the fault of the people in "mob mentality" trying to rush somebody who has a weapon, and is clearly are doing a poor job at


    Ahh right the community and car dealership never asked for protection this guy was acting the Rambo and had visions of glory poking his nose into what was none of his business …….


    Kenosha car dealer denies he asked gunmen to protect his business

    BRUCE VIELMETTI   | Milwaukee Journal Sentinel


    A Kenosha car dealer said Thursday he never asked a band of riflemen to guard one of his businesses the night of two fatal shootings, contesting a narrative the accused gunman's attorney told on Fox News.


    At the first location, Rittenhouse was pursued by a group that included Kenosha resident Joseph Rosenbaum. Racine resident Joshua Ziminski fired a shot into the air, after which Rittenhouse turned towards Rosenbaum. According to a witness, an unarmed Rosenbaum then lunged at Rittenhouse and tried to take his gun. Rittenhouse fired four times at Rosenbaum, causing him to die shortly afterwards.

    Rittenhouse then fled the scene to a second location while being followed by a crowd of around a dozen people. He tripped and fell to the ground after being hit in the head, then fired twice at an unidentified man who jump kicked him, his shots missing. While Rittenhouse was still on the ground, Silver Lake resident Anthony M. Huber struck Rittenhouse in the shoulder with a skateboard and attempted to take his rifle. Rittenhouse fired at Huber once, fatally shooting him in the chest. When West Allis resident Gaige Grosskreutz approached Rittenhouse while pointing a handgun at him, Rittenhouse shot Grosskreutz once in the right arm, severing his biceps muscle.

  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 202 Pts   -  
    Once again America's lust affair with guns has got people shot dead and someone in trouble for shooting them. 
    What is it with you Yanks that you feel you have to have a gun? What kind of society do you live in where you feel the need to own a gun as you might just have to shoot someone sometime?
    In all my years there has never been a gun in my home. The thought of having one has never even crossed my mind. None of my neighbours has guns, in fact, I don't know anyone, outside of the police, who carries a gun.
    People from my side of the pond look across at America and see the school shootings, the mall shootings, hear the outpouring of anger and grief, but know that as sure as day follows night that another similar atrocity will happen again sometime soon.
    America has a gun problem, but we are told it is not guns that are the problem, but people. 
    Yeah, but if they didn't have guns they wouldn't be a problem.
    America does have a gun problem, but sadly, it can't see the forest for the trees!
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @Dee

    You haven't followed this case close enough and listened to the prosecution and defense.

    Rosenbaum was mentally ill just released from the hospital. He had set fires that night and previously threatened to kill Kyle and others. Callings them mother frs and the n word.  When Rosenbaum got shot he chased Kyle down yelling profanities and throwing items at him. Kyle only shot him when he got within arms reach.  You don't try chasing someone down disarming someone whose not doing anything. Watch the full video evidence.

    I really hope your not on a jury.  If an account saying I'm try a be famous on a 17 year old, or supporting trump and law enforcement is any evidence of murder, that's absolutely crazy 

    How do you know if someone is trying to beat you to death unless you wait for them to beat you to death?
    Kyle was running to the police after shooting the first person. Running away from the crowd you can see in the video.
    Huber tried to strike Kyle in the head with a skateboard while he was running to the police not threatening anyone or continuing to shoot. Kyle only shot him after he attacked again.
    The second person admitted on the stand that Kyle only shot him after he pointed his pistol at kyle.  BTW all three of the individuals Kyle shot had criminal rap sheets.  It's actually pretty telling that even in all the chaos Kyle only injured three people that attacked him and injured no other bystanders 

    The car dealer denied approving it.  But he took a photo with Kyle and the rest of the group.  Also one of Kyle's friends in the group had keys to get into the repair shop.  I wonder how he got those.
    all4actt
  • The opening truth amended by the American United States Consitutional First Amendment suggests the question asked is how has the liberty of televising trials without control over the audience improved the judicial process as a whole? Has it improved the process ? As a basic issue of malpractice of law, how does the media or a legal council separate this type of action from a historic lynch party? Can a separation take place by the process of writing or reporting on certain events as they take place?
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers




    You haven't followed this case close enough and listened to the prosecution and defense.

    Translation : I’m not  buying your justification for a local Rambo mudering two people 


    Kyle Rittenhouse provoked bloodshed on the streets of Kenosha by bringing a semi-automatic rifle to a protest and menacing others, and when the shooting stopped, he walked off like a “hero in a Western,” a prosecutor said in closing arguments Monday at Rittenhouse’s murder trial.

    KENOSHA, Wis. (AP) — The first man shot and killed by Kyle Rittenhouse on the streets of Kenosha was acting “belligerently” that night but did not appear to pose a serious threat to anyone, a witness testified Friday at Rittenhouse’s murder trial.

    Jason Lackowski, a former Marine who said he took an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle to Kenosha last year to help protect property during violent protests against racial injustice, said that Joseph Rosenbaum “asked very bluntly to shoot him” and took a few “false steppings ... to entice someone to do something.”

    Lackowski got up from the witness stand and demonstrated what he meant by “false stepping.” He took a small step and slight lurch forward, then stopped.


    But Lackowski, who was called as a witness by the prosecution, said he considered Rosenbaum a “babbling ” and turned his back and ignored him. He admitted he didn’t see everything that went on between Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum, including their final clash.

  • @Dee

    How do you know they were going to beat him to death?

    How do you know when you are going to be beaten to death? A person knows they will be beaten to death only when the person asserting the force of the attack is militarily trained in hand-to-hand combat. There is no less risk of death when beaten by an unarmed attacker in opposition to lethal training other than the speed and efficiency of the way lethal force is applied, a past criminal record establishes a private training regiment of the use of force. 

    How do you know you will be beaten? As a defender of basic principles, how does any participant in a gathering of people know when the group they are in attendance with is a physical threat to human life? "This process takes place the moment the group becomes a threat to private property that is not documented as owned and in legal control by the group."
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    "Kyle Rittenhouse provoked bloodshed on the streets of Kenosha by bringing a semi-automatic rifle to a protest and menacing others, and when the shooting stopped, he walked off like a “hero in a Western,” .

    Why are you taking the prosecutions emotional words as evidence; it is their job to paint him in the worst light possible; it's not even any hard evidence.  Kyle didn't provoke anyone just by carrying a rifle and walked off like a hero in a western again is just a statement.  In reality he ran off, and ran straight to the police. I'm not sure the proof that he walked off like a hero in a western.

    "Lackowski got up from the witness stand and demonstrated what he meant by “false stepping.” He took a small step and slight lurch forward, then stopped."

    And that matters why?  He didn't take a few steps on Kyle.  He chased him down with kyle running away throwing stuff at him.  He was within arms reach in his attack when Kyle shot him. Aka not a few steps.  Kyle didn't shoot Rosenbaum earlier in the night when he was provoking Kyle to shoot him. It was only when he went to chase and attack did Kyle shoot.

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4152 Pts   -  
    If this question could just be answered by a random online poster, there would have been no need for the trial in the first place, would there? ;) The whole reason there is the trial is that it is not very clear from the superficial look at the legal system what the verdict should be, and the goal of court procedures is to determine it.

    I am not familiar with this case (not in the habit of, like a hunting dog, following every thing the media blow out of proportion), but it is strange to me that so many people always know whether someone is guilty or not and how much just by reading through a couple of newspaper headlines, while trials are going on with legal experts and investigators carefully examining the law and evidence. It is as if everyone knew what the dark matter was, and nobody understood what in the world all those physicists are doing who are trying to figure out what it is scientifically.
    all4actt
  • exconexcon 324 Pts   -   edited November 19
    MayCaesar said:

    but it is strange to me that so many people always know whether someone is guilty or not and how much just by reading through a couple of newspaper headlines

    Hello May:

    Well, some crimes are visible, ala George Floyd, and some are not.  Here, it doesn't matter what we see, so much as what we know.  He says he was there to distribute water and render medical aid.  But, you don't need an AR15 to do that..  He says he was there to protect a business.  But, if that were so, he'd be AT the business he was trying to protect instead of IN the crowd. That's enough for me to declare him guilty. 

    He does have a right wing judge, however, who I believe will entice the jury into a not guilty verdict, or even declare a mistrial.

    excon

    all4actt
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    Regarding your first question.  You and I have no idea that's pure speculation, and regardless it doesn't matter. You can't blame people that aren't taking unlawful action.
    Is it though?

    Think about it, there were thousands of people there, and yet this is the sole instance of violence of this caliber.

    Therefore, I can make an empirical (and frankly obvious) observation that immature kids who carry weapons are more likely to cause or attract violence than people who are unarmed, specifically because they are not dangerous.

    Why are you blaming a victim that wasn't doing something wrong. It be like: we'll if that woman wasn't wearing revealing clothing maybe she wouldn't have been raped.
    In this case, it seems to me that Kyle was not the victim, he barely got hurt.
    Arming ones self only makes you a target to those who chose to see you that way.  Additionally Kyle was already going against the rioters cleaning up vandalism and putting out fires which already put a target on him, which I suspect is part of the reason he carried that night.  Seems like he was right.
    Ok, so if I point out that a serial killer did community service, does that "make them right"?

    No , it's the f***ing Halo effect.
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/halo-effect ;
    It depends why theyre running into danger.  If there doing to help people or put out fires, I'd say running into danger is brave
    In this case, he wasn't looking to put out a fire, he was looking to start one.
    I'm baffled why everyone is trying to figure out a way to view every intention of Kyle as bad (the person putting out fires) while simultaneously making justifications for all the rioters and people commiting unprovoked violence against him.

    "How about a person trying to protect their life?"
    What he did was still immature and socially irresponsible. Think about it, on an average day, how many non-law enforcement citizens do you see walking around in the streets carrying rifles? Probably almost none, that isn't normal, it isn't responsible, it isn't "for protection", it is purely to aggravate and attract violence, even if that was not the intent. 

    So the person trying to protect their life from Kyle decided to chase him down while throwing stuff at him, calling him the n word, and previously threatening to kill him.  Yeah that's sounds like what I'd do if I was trying to avoid getting shot by someone with a gun 
    That sounds like bravery to me, if there is some kid actively shooting people, it is not only in your best interest to disarm that individual, as that is putting out a fire.

    Have you considered the implications of your own beliefs? The people trying to stop Rittenhouse would have to be considered the good-guys here as well, just as if not more brave than this kid. Think about it.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @excon

    He wanted a gun with him while putting out fires and rendering medical assistance because he knew it may be unsafe undoing the actions of unlawful rioters.  Turns out he was right for having one.

    He wasn't there solely to protect the business.  Throughout the night he had gone elsewhere to try and put out fires 

    Also he wasn't just standing in the crowd.  Even if he was he has just as much right to do so as they do.  If they let there emotion boil so high they start commiting violent action, that's their fault not Kyle's.

    Standing in a crowd is enough evidence for you to find him guilty? That's ludicrous.  Maybe you should actually listen to the trial and watch the video evidence.  Your argument is a bit like if that woman wasn't running at night she wouldn't have gotten raped 

    The prosecutions argument was so bad they resorted to arguments that he played call of duty.
    Also argued that he had time to change his story after hearing testimony, aka he invoked his 5th amendment, which almost got the trial dismissed outright.
    If you had any hard evidence he actually did something wrong you'd argue that he shot any of his victims unjustly, but of course they all attacked him first.
  • exconexcon 324 Pts   -  

    Standing in a crowd is enough evidence for you to find him guilty? That's ludicrous.
    Hello M:

    Nahhh, of course not..  But, when your defense is that you were there to protect buildings, and you weren't AT the building you were there to protect, punches a WIDE hole in your defense. 

    Fact is, his BEST defense is the right wing judge he has.

    excon

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @Happy_Killbot

    People that are on the opposite side of an unlawful rioting crowd already have more a target painted on their back.  They were violent riots, so bad that the police couldn't handle the unrest.  So do I blame him for taking a gun. No. If others view that as a target that's on them not Kyle.

    Kyle very well could have been the dead victim if he didn't have a gun. I mean if a rapist went to attack a girl and she shot him, would you be angry at the girl?  Maybe she shouldn't have been running at night...ridiculous. 

    On an average day how often do you see rioters burning and looting buildings?  The environment was totally different than the average day. And again whether it attracts aggravation is on other people.  It's a completely lawful action. I'm not placing criminal intent on a lawful action.

    Regarding Rosenbaum being "brave". Maybe that would make sense if Kyle was shooting people, but he wasn't.  In fact, usually active shooters aren't being chased and don't run away.  They perform the chasing.  You point is totally lost.

    No none of these people would be considered good.  Rosenbaum was threatening to kill people that night, specifically he had told Kyle previously that if he saw him alone he would kill him.  He was starting fires and causing destruction.  He then proceeded to chase Kyle down later in the night and got shot for it...fine by me.

    When you look at the video evidence after he had shot Rosenbaum Kyle actually runs away from where the closest crowd was, understanding that could provoke additional fear.  He ran towards the closest police line.

    The second and third individuals then tried to track down Kyle who was running and no longer shooting or pointing his weapon at anyone.  Doesn't much sound like an active shooter. Kyle then didn't shoot again until he got knocked to the ground by someone and then got hit by a skateboard by someone else who proceeded to continue attacking. The third didn't not get shot until admittedly pointing his weapon at kyle.
    In all this chaos Kyle didn't injure a single person that didn't attack him.  That's actually pretty incredible and shows a lot of discipline regarding how he used his weapon. 
    all4actt
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;
    Regarding Rosenbaum being "brave". Maybe that would make sense if Kyle was shooting people, but he wasn't.  In fact, usually active shooters aren't being chased and don't run away.  They perform the chasing.  You point is totally lost.
    That isn't true if Kyle was instigating and Rosenbaum was actively trying to disarm him, in which case you should consider him a hero as well, how about that?
    No none of these people would be considered good.  Rosenbaum was threatening to kill people that night, specifically he had told Kyle previously that if he saw him alone he would kill him.  He was starting fires and causing destruction.  He then proceeded to chase Kyle down later in the night and got shot for it...fine by me.
    Except that Kyle was the one who shot and killed, so you would be holding a double standard to say that it is not ok in one scenario...then totally cool in another...

    Either they are both hero's, or neither of them are. You can't have it both ways.
    In all this chaos Kyle didn't injure a single person that didn't attack him.  That's actually pretty incredible and shows a lot of discipline regarding how he used his weapon. 
    Except that it is arguable that kyle provoked those who he did attack, in which case he would have lost the right to self defense. If you invite the attack, then it is no longer self-defense, it is that simple. You can't walk into a police station armed as he was and not expect to be taken down, that isn't how this works, and what Kyle did was effectively do just that.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -  
    @excon

    I'll state again he had left the car lot previously (they had other people there still) in order to assist putting out other fires.  Kyle was called by one of his friends to help assist putting out a fire away from the lot.

    Also there is no criminal action in leaving a car lot he stated he was protecting. Kyle has the right to go anywhere in public that he wants, just like the rioters.
    Can you show me the evidence that Kyle instigated the violence?  If not you have no argument.
    all4actt
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @Happy_Killbot

    There is evidence that Kyle wasn't instigating.  Have you watched the video evidence?  When Kyle was going to put out a fire he walked right past where Rosenbaum was standing not towards him. Rosenbaum started chasing him and threw things at him. The bias you have here is insane.  Why are you trying to disarm someone who is not making threats or currently shooting anyone?  

    No double standard.  Kyle was going to put out an active fire. Rosenbaum was chasing, threatening, and attacking a currently non violent person.

    You cannot provoke someone just by carrying a gun. A police station would have a no gun policy most likely, this didn't.  They had no witness throughout the night that said Kyle threatened or pointed his weapon at them until he was attacked. The same couldn't be said for Rosenbaum, who was acting mentally unstable and threatened to kill people.

    What your literally saying is you cannot carry a gun period and use it as self defense, because the action of carrying it is provoking. There goes second amendment.
    all4actt
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5282 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers ;

    Kyle is being charged with 5 different felonies here, even if he is found not guilty on the Rosenbaum charges, that is only one of them.

    If you are to argue that Kyle was acting in self-defense, then so was Anthony Huber when Kyle shot him. After all, Rittenhouse had just shot someone else, so in this way Huber would have been looking to protect himself and others in the crowd from Kyle.

    If you hold that Kyle is a "hero" then you must say the same thing for Anthony.
    You cannot provoke someone just by carrying a gun. A police station would have a no gun policy most likely, this didn't.  They had no witness throughout the night that said Kyle threatened or pointed his weapon at them until he was attacked. The same couldn't be said for Rosenbaum, who was acting mentally unstable and threatened to kill people.
    The simple fact that a police station has a no-gun policy is evidence enough that you are completely wrong here, as simply carrying a weapon is more than enough to be proactive and attract violence.

    The reality is that Kyle went out of his way, placed himself in a dangerous situation, then things got violent, shooting 8 times in 4 minutes. 
    What your literally saying is you cannot carry a gun period and use it as self defense, because the action of carrying it is provoking. There goes second amendment.
    How about this then, the next time you go out, why not carry a rifle every where you go?

    Do you do this already?

    If not, then what ground do you really have to speak here?

    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    Why are you taking the prosecutions emotional words as evidence; it is their job to paint him in the worst light possible; it's not even any hard evidence. 


    Why are you taking the defences emotional words as evidence; it is their job to paint him in the best light possible; it's not even any hard evidence. 


     Kyle didn't provoke anyone just by carrying a rifle 

    Only in the US would anyone make a statement like that and think it a norm , it’s staggering the way certain Americans defend the indefensible as there’s nothing better for gun nuts to play up to than this ludicrous notion of the “good guy “ protecting the community as depicted in countless westerns over the years …..

    The tragedy is this nut will possibly walk going by how corrupt and politically driven the courts are in the US 


    Happy_Killbotall4actt
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    I'm not taking the defenses emotional arguments.  I've been stating what Kyle's and his supposed victims actions were.  
    I don't need to resort to calling Kyle acting like a western hero, or suggesting he somehow is guilty because he plays call of duty. Prosecution resorts to those kind of arguments out of desperation.

    Well yeah you can't provoke someone by just carrying a rifle. You say Kyle's a nut for carrying one, but supposedly attacking and chasing the person carrying the rifle is the actions of a sane individual. 
    If carrying a gun is provocation, then please suggest to me how it's possible to ever claim self defense with one?
    You can start on westerns all you want but it really has no bearing and is an entirely subjective statement.

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 922 Pts   -   edited November 19
    @Happy_Killbot

    But your wrong again. The second and third victims didn't attack Kyle immediately after the first shooting.  Kyle ran away from the crowd and was no longer posing at threat.  He didn't continue pointing his weapon at anyone.

    Huber cannot be acting in self defense against someone who is not taking any threatening action against him.  Kyle actually showed restraint towards Huber.  As Huber hit him with a skateboard once, and only git shot after continuing with his attack.

    Greuskreuts admitted he only got shot after pointing his firearm at kyle.  When he had his hands up Kyle neither shot nor pointed his weapon at him. 

    So in none of these instances did Kyle give any reason for the victims to claim they were acting defensively.

    If carrying a gun is provocation it wouldn't be allowed.  Additionally it would be impossible to act it self defense with a firearm.  Kyle is being tried under current law, not idiotic laws you think should be in place.

    You cannot be blamed for placing yourself in a dangerous situation created by others. All that suggests is the people around him were acting dangerous. Do you allow women to run at night and be victimized by men, or should they not have placed themselves in a dangerous situation?

    Why does it matter whether or not I walk around with a rifle.  There's plenty of things I don't do that other individuals might.  If I normally don't wear a hat, does that make individuals with hats nuts or provocative? You can be certain that I would've been carrying something if I was in a rioting environment.
    all4actt
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