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Is God Psychotic?

Debate Information

Thomas Edison was thought to have tried and failed over a thousand times before he invented the light globe. It would have driven him (and his family) nuts in the process.

But that's nothing compared to God's mucking around whilst creating the universe.

Although it is to be commended that He supposedly did it all in six days, look at all the wastage.

It is estimated that there are 10 trillion planets and suns in the universe so, the Guy must have been going completely ape making 1.6 trillion blobs a day before getting the Earth just right.

But, if that's not enough, astronomers have discovered that the universe is continuing to expand at an accelerating rate.

That must mean His Holiness is still at it, wildly lobbing giant atomic bombs and giant spherical rocks randomly into the void at an ever increasing rate of knots.

Surely, isn't it time some of you theists, who talk to God, just let Him know that He can stop now, we are perfectly happy with what we have. Otherwise, of course, His attention is going to be completely taken up in His workshop and will be ignoring your needs.

I don't like to say it and this is mere speculation of course but I think that He just might have some other planets with life on them going on.

And when He gets bored with breeding little zoos around the place I reckon He is going to get up to some real fun playing Star Wars with the whole lot.

Don't ever say you weren't warned.



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  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    If there is a god, it certainly isn't "all good"...that's simply not possible. An "all good god" wouldn't allow the amount of suffering and destruction that goes on in the universe. So if there is a god...either he doesn't care at all about the destruction or suffering of his creations...or he planned it that way meaning he's sadistic. The god of the bible certainly is psychopathic.
    OakTownA
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -   edited December 2021
    Argument Topic: I have to interpret what I read

    Some people like to be told how to interpret what they read.
    I don't.

    So, when I read the bible, I make up my own mind.
    I say Yahweh is an evil, crazy magician of great power.

    I don't take it as a real person, so it's ok to me if I use insults to describe it.
    Fictional characters can't be hurt by my words because they don't have real feelings.
    OakTownA
  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 35 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    Thomas Edison was thought to have tried and failed over a thousand times before he invented the light globe. It would have driven him (and his family) nuts in the process.

    But that's nothing compared to God's mucking around whilst creating the universe.

    Although it is to be commended that He supposedly did it all in six days, look at all the wastage.

    It is estimated that there are 10 trillion planets and suns in the universe so, the Guy must have been going completely ape making 1.6 trillion blobs a day before getting the Earth just right.

    But, if that's not enough, astronomers have discovered that the universe is continuing to expand at an accelerating rate.

    That must mean His Holiness is still at it, wildly lobbing giant atomic bombs and giant spherical rocks randomly into the void at an ever increasing rate of knots.

    Surely, isn't it time some of you theists, who talk to God, just let Him know that He can stop now, we are perfectly happy with what we have. Otherwise, of course, His attention is going to be completely taken up in His workshop and will be ignoring your needs.

    I don't like to say it and this is mere speculation of course but I think that He just might have some other planets with life on them going on.

    And when He gets bored with breeding little zoos around the place I reckon He is going to get up to some real fun playing Star Wars with the whole lot.

    Don't ever say you weren't warned.
    I'll answer this question or at least trying to based on what I know. This answer is based on Islamic perspective since I am a muslim. I will clarify a few things from your argument before I respond :

    1. In the third sentence, Allah which is God created the heaven and the earth in six days (Surah Al-Araf 7:54). I don't think God created the world in six days. Depending on the context the word, "يَوْم" (Yawm) can mean days which is much common or a period. The evidence is Surah Al-Hajj 22:47 "Verily a Day in the sight of your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning" (Surah Al-Hajj 7:54). The measure of time is very subjective depending on one's perspective.

    2. Now in the next sentence, you said that Allah or God (I'm assuming you refer to it in the sentence as "the Guy") created 1.6 billion planets per "day". Now this is very speculative. Mathematically, it's plausible however the possibility doesn't end there. Allah can create 10 trillion planets at a time and the process takes six "days". Moreover, Allah or God doesn't need to say 10 trillion times for 10 trillion planets to be created. He can just will it once, and it will happen.

    3. The sixth sentence, you said to the Theist and I'm assuming you also refer to me that we should tell God we're perfectly happy with what we have. Now this is subjectivity at it's finest. Although I assume that you're happy with what you have currently, otherwise you wouldn't write this sentence, we need to define what is happiness. Is it maximizing pleasure? Is it minimizing pain? Is it both? Or are there any alternatives to the definition of happines? I will touch this in a bit.

    4. Lastly, at the ninth sentence, you talked about when God gets bored. Well...it can't. Let's define what boredom is, shall we? Taken from Oxford Dictionaries, (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/bored#:~:text=feeling tired and impatient because,bored expression on her face.)

    "feeling tired and impatient because you have lost interest in someone or something or because you have nothing to do."

    Well...as I recall in the Qur'an, Allah cannot feel tired as Allah never sleep and doesn't need to sleep. As per emotional tiredness or impatient, one of Allah's name in Al-Asma Al-Husna (Translated as "The best of names") we have As-Shabr or Sabur have a meaning of The most Patient.

    Now as I have clarify things that I need to clarify, I'll continue by responding to a few point. I will do as much as I can but as I am a human, let me know if I miss any point you have.

    1. "Thomas Edison was thought to have tried and failed over a thousand times before he invented the light globe. It would have driven him (and his family) nuts in the process. But that's nothing compared to God's mucking around whilst creating the universe."

    A process is not a waste of time. What he did is an experiment. It's for certain that he did fail a lot. Yes. But that failure is a byproduct of himself. Flaws. As he keep going to make his lamp, he keep improving his design to what it previously has. Unlike human, Allah or God does not "experiment" as we know that Allah or God is Omniscient. However, one might question that because Allah or God does not experiment with things, they would create things faster and as a result what are the rest of the time for if not wasted? Allah or God are a sovereign ruler. Although God know past, present, or future, one cannot argue that Allah does not have anything to do other than creating things. The possibility doesn't end there. 

    2. "It is estimated that there are 10 trillion planets and suns in the universe so, the Guy must have been going completely ape making 1.6 trillion blobs a day before getting the Earth just right. But, if that's not enough, astronomers have discovered that the universe is continuing to expand at an accelerating rate. That must mean His Holiness is still at it, wildly lobbing giant atomic bombs and giant spherical rocks randomly into the void at an ever increasing rate of knots."

    I would like to point out although yes, planet is developed more and more, it doesn't mean Allah or God doing things at random. Randomness is a byproduct of lack of information and lack of processing that information such that there is no definite answer other than trying it and using probability of success in predicting what is going to happen. Let me give you an example,

    Suppose both of us bet on a game where one need to guess whether how long a bird should fly off the ground. Sound simple. Some people might just guess a random number of seconds. Maybe 10 seconds, 20, 30, whatever. Now, I bet that the bird will fly in three seconds and I picks up a stone, throwing it to the bird and scaring it. With that control in mind, I can bet with any number with a condition that the bird would stay on the ground without any interference. It's easy to say that one thing is a probability of success as there is so much nuance that comes to predicting something. But if someone already knows all the variables that affect a probability and being able to control it, it wouldn't be a probability or estimation. This is applied to Allah or God as they have power over all things.

    3. Lastly, this is quite comical from you.
    "Surely, isn't it time some of you theists, who talk to God, just let Him know that He can stop now, we are perfectly happy with what we have. Otherwise, of course, His attention is going to be completely taken up in His workshop and will be ignoring your needs."

    what I found funny is that you stated that Allah or God have something called attention and somehow will ignore our needs. Well I can't say I understand this sentence fully so I do request a clarification. But, we know that humans have this capability of multitasking? So lack of attention would never be a problem. Now I'm not saying Allah or God counter all the things that happening in the world by multitasking but to assume that Allah or God can only do one thing at one time is quite absurd, don't you think?

    As per Problem of Evil, I do want to respond to the main title of this discussion.

    Is God Psychotic?


    Now, let's define the word psychotic.
    "suffering from psychosis (= severe mental disease):." (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/psychotic)

    How about Psychosis?
    "A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, which may be chronic or transient, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality, causing a deterioration of normal social functioning." (https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100352898#:~:text=A severe mental disorder, with,in A Dictionary of Dentistry »)

    Oops...well the definition speaks for itself. I don't believe you argue with these definitions but as I scroll to the other people who debated and saw that they're discussing and giving argument with the support of Problem of Evil, I think you mean psychopathic.
    "a person suffering from a serious mental illness that causes them to behave in a violent way toward other people." (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/psychopath)

    Well...to a person who think that Allah or God doesn't exist, this seems plausible. If Allah or God have power over all things, why did he let out injustice, oppression, all these things? Why does Allah or God in which one of the attribute of it is good let bad things happen? Well, I do want to ask you to define good, bad, and justice. Is good subjective or is it objective? Let me give you an example, if a police officer shot a man dead, is it good or bad? You see, it depends on the perspective. That is the same as the Problem of Evil. It depends on the perspective. For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly. Rather I find it much more diabolical the other way around. Imagine if a woman raped and then she died. For someone who doesn't believe that there will be justice conducted in the hereafter, this would be a tragedy for the whole universe even as the woman would have no way to have their justice upon the person or people who raped her. This is why the problem of evil exist. Moreover, as I said, what is the definition of good? bad? happiness? justice? If pain is our measure of happiness and good, there will be no one who wanted to struggle. For me, exercise is good but does it mean I don't feel pain? Of course I do. But the pain is the process of getting the benefits. The pleasure. Then is pleasure our measure of good and happiness? If it is, then rich people is good and poor people is bad. Allah or God will give justice to those who has being wronged and those who oppress. Whether this answers the Problem of Evil or not, I don't know. I leave it to you for pondering. My opinion? God is not diabolical as I believe this world is a test for everyone. A test beneficial for us so that we can appreciate life as painful and as hard as we life in it as in the next life I believe that people will get what they deserve.
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad

    . If Allah or God have power over all things, why did he let out injustice, oppression, all these things? Why does Allah or God in which one of the attribute of it is good let bad things happen? Well, I do want to ask you to define good, bad, and justice. Is good subjective or is it objective? 

    Moral evaluations are subjective , morality is about the well being of thinking creatures , our actions have consequences 

    If we can agree well being is a good thing then we can agree on what acts are moral 



    Let me give you an example, if a police officer shot a man dead, is it good or bad? You see, it depends on the perspective.

    I don’t know your example is too vague 

     That is the same as the Problem of Evil. It depends on the perspective

    That’s unclear , let’s look at great evil is it a matter of “ perspective” that raping a child is evil?

    . For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly. 

    You believe that but why should anyone else? 

    Rather I find it much more diabolical the other way around. Imagine if a woman raped and then she died. 

    The difference is Allah watches as children are raped daily and does nothing , if I saw a child being raped and could help I would Allah chooses not to , how is he morally superior to me? 

    For someone who doesn't believe that there will be justice conducted in the hereafter, this would be a tragedy for the whole universe even as the woman would have no way to have their justice upon the person or people who raped her.

    Its a tragedy Allah watches women being raped and does nothing when he can

     This is why the problem of evil exist. 

    So evil exists so evil can be done and Allah can punish it in the next world?

    Moreover, as I said, what is the definition of good? bad? happiness? justice? If pain is our measure of happiness and good, there will be no one who wanted to struggle. For me, exercise is good but does it mean I don't feel pain? Of course I do. But the pain is the process of getting the benefits. The pleasure. Then is pleasure our measure of good and happiness? If it is, then rich people is good and poor people is bad. Allah or God will give justice to those who has being wronged and those who oppress. Whether this answers the Problem of Evil or not, I don't know.

    If all morality comes through Allah anything he deems moral is moral right? 

     I leave it to you for pondering. My opinion? God is not diabolical as I believe this world is a test for everyone. 

    I think your god is diabolical and Sharia law which is a part of Islam and apparently the revealed word of god is informed by the Quran is a great moral evil 

    A test beneficial for us so that we can appreciate life as painful and as hard as we life in it as in the next life I believe that people will get what they deserve.

    All religions spout the same nonsense , how come all the different gods have different moral codes and why pick Islam?
  • @Jawadiahmad

     In the third sentence, Allah which is God created the heaven and the earth in six days (Surah Al-Araf 7:54). I don't think God created the world in six days. Depending on the context the word, "يَوْم" (Yawm) can mean days which is much common or a period.

    And if Allah is not a numerical axiom describing the basic principle of mathematics? The logical elapse of distance as duration of the day around a source of light larger than the earth's sun is simply a six-day duration that while on earth cannot be equaled or measured.
  • @Dee
    All religions spout the same nonsense , how come all the different gods have different moral codes and why pick Islam?
    The use of logic a numerical axiom, a pattern is used in front of you to express a volume in general to assert reason you cannot grasp yet you still ask the reason why it is so?

    Here is an example. There are 54,821 religions and by the time you finish reading this one line, there will be 72,341 religions. When you read the line a second time the answers have changed yet again for no other reason a person can change their mind.
  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 35 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @Jawadiahmad

    . If Allah or God have power over all things, why did he let out injustice, oppression, all these things? Why does Allah or God in which one of the attribute of it is good let bad things happen? Well, I do want to ask you to define good, bad, and justice. Is good subjective or is it objective? 

    Moral evaluations are subjective , morality is about the well being of thinking creatures , our actions have consequences 

    If we can agree well being is a good thing then we can agree on what acts are moral 



    Let me give you an example, if a police officer shot a man dead, is it good or bad? You see, it depends on the perspective.

    I don’t know your example is too vague 

     That is the same as the Problem of Evil. It depends on the perspective

    That’s unclear , let’s look at great evil is it a matter of “ perspective” that raping a child is evil?

    . For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly. 

    You believe that but why should anyone else? 

    Rather I find it much more diabolical the other way around. Imagine if a woman raped and then she died. 

    The difference is Allah watches as children are raped daily and does nothing , if I saw a child being raped and could help I would Allah chooses not to , how is he morally superior to me? 

    For someone who doesn't believe that there will be justice conducted in the hereafter, this would be a tragedy for the whole universe even as the woman would have no way to have their justice upon the person or people who raped her.

    Its a tragedy Allah watches women being raped and does nothing when he can

     This is why the problem of evil exist. 

    So evil exists so evil can be done and Allah can punish it in the next world?

    Moreover, as I said, what is the definition of good? bad? happiness? justice? If pain is our measure of happiness and good, there will be no one who wanted to struggle. For me, exercise is good but does it mean I don't feel pain? Of course I do. But the pain is the process of getting the benefits. The pleasure. Then is pleasure our measure of good and happiness? If it is, then rich people is good and poor people is bad. Allah or God will give justice to those who has being wronged and those who oppress. Whether this answers the Problem of Evil or not, I don't know.

    If all morality comes through Allah anything he deems moral is moral right? 

     I leave it to you for pondering. My opinion? God is not diabolical as I believe this world is a test for everyone. 

    I think your god is diabolical and Sharia law which is a part of Islam and apparently the revealed word of god is informed by the Quran is a great moral evil 

    A test beneficial for us so that we can appreciate life as painful and as hard as we life in it as in the next life I believe that people will get what they deserve.

    All religions spout the same nonsense , how come all the different gods have different moral codes and why pick Islam?
    Allow me to respond.

    1. "I don’t know your example is too vague."
    It's a deliberation in my part so that we can see in certain scenario, something evil might not be evil and something good might not be good.

    2. "That’s unclear , let’s look at great evil is it a matter of “ perspective” that raping a child is evil?"
    I don't know what would your point be in this argumentation. Whether you wanted me to review this case based on morality to say whether it's evil in which perspective or it's good in which perspective but to answer this directly, it's evil.

    3. "You believe that but why should anyone else?"
    No, in this sentence in no shape or form do I tell someone or some group to believe what I believe in.

    4. "The difference is Allah watches as children are raped daily and does nothing , if I saw a child being raped and could help I would Allah chooses not to , how is he morally superior to me?"
    Well...I did answer that Allah does something. In fact, I would argue what is the difference between stopping the evil now and later when you can deal the same weight of justice to each scenario?

    5. "Its a tragedy Allah watches women being raped and does nothing when he can"
    I did answer this. I'll quote myself "For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly." Ironically you quoted me. Allah can do it. It does the justice in the end. I have an opinion on why Allah will let that happen but he won't let that happen without consequences and Allah will delivers it whether it's at that time or later. Although I have a grammatical mistake which the word "...would've..." should be the word "...will..."

    6. "So evil exists so evil can be done and Allah can punish it in the next world?"
    No. I'll quote myself again on my opinion on why there is evil in this world. "...I believe this world is a test for everyone. A test beneficial for us so that we can appreciate life as painful and as hard as we life in it as in the next life I believe that people will get what they deserve."

    7. "If all morality comes through Allah anything he deems moral is moral right? "
    Um...yes? I don't quite know why you use this argumentation. Maybe you can provide the example on what morals in Islam that you disagree in your response.

    8. "I think your god is diabolical and Sharia law which is a part of Islam and apparently the revealed word of god is informed by the Quran is a great moral evil"
    It's ok if your opinion is that Allah is diabolical. However the Shariah Law one is quite confusing to me. It's clear that you might see Shariah Law as a one book and fixed. While that may be true, the application which is Fiqh is quite fluid and differ from each region as it the implementation. And Fiqh is also determined by what the scholars who understand it which is Fatwa.

    9. "All religions spout the same nonsense , how come all the different gods have different moral codes and why pick Islam?"
    That there is a creator? I do require some clarification on what's nonsense and the different moral codes.

    Also, there is actually a good question and although I imply it here, I would ask it in more deliberate fashion as you have quoted me this sentence from my argument.
    "Rather I find it much more diabolical the other way around. Imagine if a woman raped and then she died."

    If there is none left after we die. We just die and that's it. It's the extinction of human existence, how can justice be served in that regard? Is the circumstances above would just be a human tragedy and the woman would never get any justice on bad things that has happened to her?

    And I can assume that you believe in subjective morality based on your initial sentences. Although I don't respond it here since I haven't got much clarification and explanation. Besides, it's not what we arguing here.
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad


    1.

    But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being , you seem to  operate through a book of moral dictates like a robot 

    2. 

    I don't know what would your point be in this argumentation. Whether you wanted me to review this case based on morality to say whether it's evil in which perspective or it's good in which perspective but to answer this directly, it's evil.

    I’m asking in your view how can child rape be a matter of perspective , you admit it’s evil 

    3. 
    No, in this sentence in no shape or form do I tell someone or some group to believe what I believe in.

    Fine 

    4. 
    Well...I did answer that Allah does something.

    In the next life  A child’s life is ruined and that’s the best an all powerful Allah can do …..seriously?

     In fact, I would argue what is the difference between stopping the evil now and later when you can deal the same weight of justice to each scenario?

    Because it’s grossly immoral to merely watch a child being raped and do nothing when you can watch it , only a monster would behave in this way 

    Tell me if your brother watched one of your kids being raped and told you “ it’s fine , Allah will punish the rapist in the next life “would you agree with your brother and forgive him “?

    If not why would you agree with Allah and worship him?

    5. 
    I did answer this. I'll quote myself "For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly." Ironically you quoted me. Allah can do it. It does the justice in the end. 

    That’s of no use to a child who’s life is ruined by child rape , yet Allah chooses to merely watch so you find it totally moral for someone to watch a child rape and not intervene right? That’s what you’re saying

    I have an opinion on why Allah will let that happen but he won't let that happen without consequences and Allah will delivers it whether it's at that time or later. Although I have a grammatical mistake which the word "...would've..." should be the word "...will..."

    Read above 

    6. 
    No. I'll quote myself again on my opinion on why there is evil in this world. "...I believe this world is a test for everyone. A test beneficial for us so that we can appreciate life as painful and as hard as we life in it as in the next life I believe that people will get what they deserve."

    So tell me what sort of “test” is it to allow children be raped and why would a loving god allow “testing “ of children this way ?


    7. 
    Um...yes? I don't quite know why you use this argumentation. Maybe you can provide the example on what morals in Islam that you disagree in your response.


    If everything Allah deems moral is moral if Allah said rape was moral it is so , your “um ….yes” would suggest so

    8. 
    It's ok if your opinion is that Allah is diabolical. However the Shariah Law one is quite confusing to me. It's clear that you might see Shariah Law as a one book and fixed. While that may be true, the application which is Fiqh is quite fluid and differ from each region as it the implementation. And Fiqh is also determined by what the scholars who understand it which is Fatwa.


    Sharia law is brutal and primitive and used to demonise , victimise  and abuse people 

    9. 
    That there is a creator? I do require some clarification on what's nonsense and the different moral codes.

    Yes a god claim which is not supported by evidence . Also are you not familiar with the moral codes of different religions? Which one is “right” and how did you decide?

    Also, there is actually a good question and although I imply it here, I would ask it in more deliberate fashion as you have quoted me this sentence from my argument.
    "Rather I find it much more diabolical the other way around. Imagine if a woman raped and then she died."

    If there is none left after we die. We just die and that's it. It's the extinction of human existence, how can justice be served in that regard? 

    When you’re dead you’re dead unless you can prove otherwise , what use is justice when you’re dead?

    Is the circumstances above would just be a human tragedy and the woman would never get any justice on bad things that has happened to her?

    It’s absolutely of no use if you’re dead 

    And I can assume that you believe in subjective morality based on your initial sentences. Although I don't respond it here since I haven't got much clarification and explanation. Besides, it's not what we arguing here.

    All morality is subjective Your morality is based solely on the word of Allah no matter your opinion of a given situation , that’s how an unthinking robot would behave 
  • The word psychosis is used to describe conditions that affect the mind, where there has been some loss of contact with reality. When someone becomes ill in this way it is called a psychotic episode.

    Unless God is not a logic held in a numeric axiom the psychosis of the individual person can be repetitively transferred away from the psychosis of the logical contribution and back into the idea of faith.
  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 35 Pts   -   edited December 2021
    @Dee

    1. "In the next life  A child’s life is ruined and that’s the best an all powerful Allah can do …..seriously?" "Because it’s grossly immoral to merely watch a child being raped and do nothing when you can watch it , only a monster would behave in this way. Tell me if your brother watched one of your kids being raped and told you “ it’s fine , Allah will punish the rapist in the next life “would you agree with your brother and forgive him? If not why would you agree with Allah and worship him?" "That’s of no use to a child who’s life is ruined by child rape , yet Allah chooses to merely watch so you find it totally moral for someone to watch a child rape and not intervene right? That’s what you’re saying"

    I'll respond to these two argument. One, what Allah does in what I'm referencing to you is this.
    "For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly."
    In fact, I do want to add to this that Allah can bring the justice now or later. Does not matter when. Whether it is close or even after you die, you will have recompense if you have been wronged and you will get retribution if you wronged someone. As per your question about whether I would forgive the rapist, yes. It would be hard but I would. And I would interfere if I can as Allah tell me to do that.

    "...Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves...." (Ar-Rad, 13:11)

    But let's just say no one interfered and she died. There is no effort to bring her justice. I would still accept this rather than your view of death in which there is nothing after death as you says.

    "It’s absolutely of no use if you’re dead."

    I don't expect you to say this since with this sentence that you said,

    "Moral evaluations are subjective , morality is about the well being of thinking creatures , our actions have consequences 

    If we can agree well being is a good thing then we can agree on what acts are moral."

    The first sentence that you said that it's no use if you dead almost make me assume that you're a nihilist. Saying that there is no use for consequences if you're dead. Nothing in this world would matter because at the end you will die and nothing matters when you die. You know what? Let's test that theory. We will flip the script as they say. Imagine your daughter has been raped. Then, one people says, "We will move every police force. We will report the case to FBI and hope that the perpetrator will be found.". If your daughter died and the rapist died, your daughter live is ruined and there is no recompense for her ruined life and there is no retribution to the man who has raped her. Now if you think this is still ok, based on the principle of utilitarianism which person life a good life and which one life a bad one? Based on utilitarianism, the one who lived a good life would be the rapist and the one who lived a bad life is the raped girls. Moreover, I could use this argument against yourself.

    "In the next life  A child’s life is ruined and that’s the best an all powerful Allah can do …..seriously?"

    Yep. "In the next life, is that what happened? A child's life is ruined and that's it? There is nothing he or she can do about it?" You see how much more diabolical this sounds rather than if there is life in hereafter? And no. In no way shape or form we should let things happened. We should do something about it if we want change and you can read the passage above.

    2. "So tell me what sort of “test” is it to allow children be raped and why would a loving god allow “testing “ of children this way ?"
    Ok you know what? I'll tell you what I think. Allah or God give this test to see whether we submit to Allah's command or our greed or what we call 'Nafs'. I mean even a child who got raped and died. I believe that even if the child who is raped commits suicide which is a major sin, I believe that he would still enter heaven as he is not matured.

    3. "That’s of no use to a child who’s life is ruined by child rape , yet Allah chooses to merely watch so you find it totally moral for someone to watch a child rape and not intervene right? That’s what you’re saying"
    No. Never said it was moral and never said that Allah just merely watch. See my argument above if you still doesn't understand this response.

    4. "If everything Allah deems moral is moral if Allah said rape was moral it is so , your “um ….yes” would suggest so" "Sharia law is brutal and primitive and used to demonise , victimise  and abuse people"
    Proof? Because I can prove otherwise within these two statement. Let's start with the response about the rape argument you have first. Rape in Islam is categorized as Zina Al-Zibr and this is what Allah says in the Qur'an commanding us about Zina.

     "And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." (Al-Isra, 17:32)

    How could you say it is moral when it isn't based on the verse that I pointed out above? And yes do check it and assess it if you want to.

    As per the Shari'ah Law used to demonize, victimize and abuse people, let's look at one case where people think that there is a discrimination towards Jews shall we? Bani Quraizah in which their tribe are killed. You can search it on Sahih Muslim, The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l Siyar). Many claim that these people has been massacred by the commands of Prophet Muhammad. Even an Ex-Muslim such as Apostate Prophet if you watch him. However, the decision is not from Prophet Muhammad. In fact, it's from Sa'd bin Mu'adh. An Ex-Jew, Prophet companion and have a close relation to the tribe himself.

    It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri who said :

    "The people of Bani Quraiza surrendered accepting the decision of Sa'd bin Mu'adh about them...."

    Moreover, Bani Nadhir who the decision is on Prophet Muhammad, exiled insted of being killed. To give you more context, these are the people who complots to kill the Prophet after they have a treaty and you can read the treaty if you search Madinah treaty.

    5. "Yes a god claim which is not supported by evidence . Also are you not familiar with the moral codes of different religions? Which one is “right” and how did you decide?"
    What do you mean by evidence? Is it evidence that you can see or feel like your eyes? But some people even doubt their eyes. Saying that there is a possibility that we could live in a simulation. Also, I do know about some of the difference on moral code in which there could be. However, you asking whether which one is "right" I would assume that you mean whether which one hasn't been tampered yet. How do we do it? See whether the moral is taken from the scripture. Assess whether those scripture have been tampered or not. Assess the religion basically.

    6. "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being , you seem to  operate through a book of moral dictates like a robot " "All morality is subjective Your morality is based solely on the word of Allah no matter your opinion of a given situation , that’s how an unthinking robot would behave "
    And no. We are not like robots in which we just judge without any compassion. These morals are indeed from Allah and I believe it, yes. But to say that it just things without any wisdom or even thinking is false. You know, I don't want to assume things about you again. Let's see the superiority of the thinking and the subjective morality, shall we? If there is a community of people and they think that incest is okay because man and their daughter or woman and their son have affection towards each other, they do it consensually, their ages has reached age of consent and they do not harm anyone. The majority disagrees and discriminate these groups. They keep protesting about their rights to have intercourse. Do you think in this case incest is right or wrong? Why if I may ask since you are they thinking subjective morality type of person?
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad

    I'll respond to these two argument. One, what Allah does in what I'm referencing to you is this.
    "For me who believes in Allah or God and in the hereafter, Allah or God would've given justice to the people who is oppressed, to the one who have died unjustly."


    First you have to prove a god and then prove it’s Allah

    In fact, I do want to add to this that Allah can bring the justice now or later. Does not matter when. 

    It matters a great deal actually which is why we have justice systems worldwide are you saying you never want justice in this world?

    Whether it is close or even after you die, you will have recompense if you have been wronged and you will get retribution if you wronged someone.

    Prove it?

     As per your question about whether I would forgive the rapist, yes. It would be hard but I would. And I would interfere if I can as Allah tell me to do that.

    You would interfere and save a child yet you worship a monster who just watches ….wow!

    "...Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves...." (Ar-Rad, 13:11)

    But let's just say no one interfered and she died. There is no effort to bring her justice. I would still accept this rather than your view of death in which there is nothing after death as you says.

    Prove life after death?


    I don't expect you to say this since with this sentence that you said,

    "Moral evaluations are subjective , morality is about the well being of thinking creatures , our actions have consequences 

    If we can agree well being is a good thing then we can agree on what acts are moral."



    The first sentence that you said that it's no use if you dead almost make me assume that you're a nihilist.

    You’re wrong 

     Saying that there is no use for consequences if you're dead. Nothing in this world would matter because at the end you will die and nothing matters when you die. 

    Everything I value in this world matters , the next world is an unproven fairy tale 


    You know what? Let's test that theory. We will flip the script as they say. Imagine your daughter has been raped. Then, one people says, "We will move every police force. We will report the case to FBI and hope that the perpetrator will be found.". If your daughter died and the rapist died, your daughter live is ruined and there is no recompense for her ruined life and there is no retribution to the man who has raped her. Now if you think this is still ok, based on the principle of utilitarianism which person life a good life and which one life a bad one? Based on utilitarianism, the one who lived a good life would be the rapist and the one who lived a bad life is the raped girls. Moreover, I could use this argument against yourself.

    I never mentioned utilitarianism stop trying to attribute positions I haven’t made on me , the only justice that matters is in this world , you have zero proof for justice in another unproven world 

    "In the next life  A child’s life is ruined and that’s the best an all powerful Allah can do …..seriously?"

    Yep. "In the next life, is that what happened? A child's life is ruined and that's it? There is nothing he or she can do about it?" You see how much more diabolical this sounds rather than if there is life in hereafter? And no. In no way shape or form we should let things happened. We should do something about it if we want change and you can read the passage above.


    Yes do something to help if you can which makes you better than a useless uncaring Allah 

    2. "So tell me what sort of “test” is it to allow children be raped and why would a loving god allow “testing “ of children this way ?"
    Ok you know what? I'll tell you what I think. Allah or God give this test to see whether we submit to Allah's command or our greed or what we call 'Nafs'. I mean even a child who got raped and died. I believe that even if the child who is raped commits suicide which is a major sin, I believe that he would still enter heaven as he is not matured.

    How is a child being raped a “test” ? Why would “Allah”  test a child with rape? What’s Allah “command “ to a child?

    "That’s of no use to a child who’s life is ruined by child rape , yet Allah chooses to merely watch so you find it totally moral for someone to watch a child rape and not intervene right? That’s what you’re saying"

    No. Never said it was moral and never said that Allah just merely watch. See my argument above if you still doesn't understand this response.

    So Allah is immoral for watching , I agree as you admit …. “Never said it was moral”   ….Allah is just watching as he doesn’t intervene do you deny this?

    You didn’t make a coherent response 


    Proof? Because I can prove otherwise within these two statement. Let's start with the response about the rape argument you have first. Rape in Islam is categorized as Zina Al-Zibr and this is what Allah says in the Qur'an commanding us about Zina.

     "And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." (Al-Isra, 17:32)

    How could you say it is moral when it isn't based on the verse that I pointed out above? And yes do check it and assess it if you want to.


    I never said rape was moral stop making up stuff I never said where did I say rape was moral ?

    As per the Shari'ah Law used to demonize, victimize and abuse people, let's look at one case where people think that there is a discrimination towards Jews shall we? Bani Quraizah in which their tribe are killed. You can search it on Sahih Muslim, The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l Siyar). Many claim that these people has been massacred by the commands of Prophet Muhammad. Even an Ex-Muslim such as Apostate Prophet if you watch him. However, the decision is not from Prophet Muhammad. In fact, it's from Sa'd bin Mu'adh. An Ex-Jew, Prophet companion and have a close relation to the tribe himself.

    It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri who said :

    "The people of Bani Quraiza surrendered accepting the decision of Sa'd bin Mu'adh about them...."

    Moreover, Bani Nadhir who the decision is on Prophet Muhammad, exiled insted of being killed. To give you more context, these are the people who complots to kill the Prophet after they have a treaty and you can read the treaty if you search Madinah treaty.

    What are you talking about you bring up a subject I never mentioned 


    What do you mean by evidence? Is it evidence that you can see or feel like your eyes? But some people even doubt their eyes. Saying that there is a possibility that we could live in a simulation. Also, I do know about some of the difference on moral code in which there could be. However, you asking whether which one is "right" I would assume that you mean whether which one hasn't been tampered yet. How do we do it? See whether the moral is taken from the scripture. Assess whether those scripture have been tampered or not. Assess the religion basically.


    You don’t know what constitutes good evidence ? Seriously? 

    You totally ignored my question 

     "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being , you seem to  operate through a book of moral dictates like a robot " "All morality is subjective Your morality is based solely on the word of Allah no matter your opinion of a given situation , that’s how an unthinking robot would behave "


    And no. We are not like robots in which we just judge without any compassion. These morals are indeed from Allah and I believe it, yes. But to say that it just things without any wisdom or even thinking is false.

    I never said that you keep misrepresenting me . You don’t know what is moral or immoral unless it’s informed by the Quran and Allah anything Allah deems moral is moral no argument , you behave like an unthinking  robot no moral decision is yours 

    You know, I don't want to assume things about you again. Let's see the superiority of the thinking and the subjective morality, shall we? If there is a community of people and they think that incest is okay because man and their daughter or woman and their son have affection towards each other, they do it consensually, their ages has reached age of consent and they do not harm anyone. The majority disagrees and discriminate these groups. They keep protesting about their rights to have intercourse. Do you think in this case incest is right or wrong?


    You totally ignored what I said about subjective morality which was …. "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being ,”

    Incest is an example in this case of subjective immorality 


    Why if I may ask since you are they thinking subjective morality type of person?

    In the Muslim world this week thieves will have hands amputated for being thieves , people will be jailed or killed for being apostates or homosexuals , women beaten and tortured , whipped and jailed for breaking Sharia law this is most Muslims view of what they claim is “ objective morality “ …..you can keep it 

    Subjective morality is what every person uses which is why moral codes differ in societies around the world and are ever evolving and changing so called “objective morality “ as believers use the term does not exist as if its demonstrably false ….


    1. God commands acts because they are good.


     That implies God is beholden to a separate, observable standard to determine what's good. If this is the case, then a god is actually not necessary for morality


    2.   Acts are good because they are commanded by God


    That effectively renders morality arbitrary; nothing is intrinsically good, and God could declare something bad one day to be good the next day.

  • SwolliwSwolliw 1442 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad
    I'll answer this question or at least trying to based on what I know. This answer is based on Islamic perspective since I am a muslim. 

    In which case, you don't know much.

  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Psychotic?

    I don't believe that psychotic is the right word to describe the biblical god. If this god is supposedly omnipotent, then it should be in full control of its mind and actions.
    As the bible is the only thing that gives us a picture of what this god is like, then going by the contents of that book I would think that the word evil is more appropriate to describe this god.

  • NotReallyNotReally 92 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw
    Thomas Edison was thought to have tried and failed over a thousand times before he invented the light globe. It would have driven him (and his family) nuts in the process.

    --Ye--

    But that's nothing compared to God's mucking around whilst creating the universe.

    --Why is it(God) removing manure...--

    Although it is to be commended that He supposedly did it all in six days, look at all the wastage.

    --Oh the Christian God. I am just going to argue with my definition of God, I guess.

    It is estimated that there are 10 trillion planets and suns in the universe so, the Guy must have been going completely ape making 1.6 trillion blobs a day before getting the Earth just right.

    --Actually, it(God) didn't make those planets--

    But, if that's not enough, astronomers have discovered that the universe is continuing to expand at an accelerating rate.

    --True--

    That must mean His Holiness is still at it, wildly lobbing giant atomic bombs and giant spherical rocks randomly into the void at an ever-increasing rate of knots.

    --Eh, no. All it did was create the fundamentals.--

    Surely, isn't it time some of you theists, who talk to God, just let Him know that He can stop now, we are perfectly happy with what we have? Otherwise, of course, His attention is going to be completely taken up in His workshop and will be ignoring your needs.

    --I don't really think it cares, he is a neutral entity--

    I don't like to say it and this is mere speculation of course but I think that He just might have some other planets with life on them going on.

    --Again, I don't think it cares.--

    And when He gets bored with breeding little zoos around the place I reckon He is going to get up to some real fun playing Star Wars with the whole lot.

    --I think it might know better than to play Star Wars in its time, but it is fun...--

    Don't ever say you weren't warned.

    --Okay--
    Swolliw
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1442 Pts   -  
    @JoeKerr
     I would think that the word evil is more appropriate to describe this god.

    You are probably right and I would say though that evil and psychotic go hand-in-hand.

  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 35 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    1.First you have to prove a god and then prove it’s Allah
    What? What do I have to prove it to you? I'm not arguing about the existence of God or Allah. I'm just making an argument that for people who believe in Allah, there will be justice at the end of the day from him. I don't need to prove it to you as the prerequisite of this statement is for people who believe in Allah.

    2.It matters a great deal actually which is why we have justice systems worldwide are you saying you never want justice in this world?
    Do you understand what I'm actually arguing? I argue that there will be justice from God or Allah whether it's now or later. It doesn't matter when as Allah or God is in Al-Qur'an is the most just. To someone who believe in the afterlife, at least. For you, it might be that you view justice as something constrained by time.

    3.Whether it is close or even after you die, you will have recompense if you have been wronged and you will get retribution if you wronged someone.
    What do you even argue about? I didn't need to prove this. My argument at this specific sentence is explaining if someone believe in the hereafter

    4.You would interfere and save a child yet you worship a monster who just watches ….wow!
    What? Again, do you even understand my argument? I never and let me repeat it again for you. Never. Claim that Allah does nothing. For Allah to do nothing about an evil act, he would never deliver justice which is the opposite of what I'm arguing.

    5."Moral evaluations are subjective , morality is about the well being of thinking creatures , our actions have consequences  If we can agree well being is a good thing then we can agree on what acts are moral."
    I have challenged this. I'll come back to this in a bit.

    6.You’re wrong 
    Now? I guess I doubt this statement

    7.Everything I value in this world matters , the next world is an unproven fairy tale 
    I guess now it's the time for you to prove the inexistence of the next world. For me? I have prove it logically. You can ask if you still doesn't understand it.

    8.I never mentioned utilitarianism stop trying to attribute positions I haven’t made on me , the only justice that matters is in this world , you have zero proof for justice in another unproven world 
    You know what? I come back just because of this point. I just baffled by this specific point that I feel that I owe you an explanation. Why do I judge that from utilitarianism perspective? To put it simply, I'm being generous. You think that there is no afterlife and there is no use in judgement after you die. So, how do we judge someone quality of life? There is no consequences of what he does when he still alive that can be imposed to him now. No reward or punishment can be imposed to him. If I'm not being generous, I'll use nihilism.

    9.Yes do something to help if you can which makes you better than a useless uncaring Allah 
    How? What do you want to do? There is no mechanism to help the child directly. There is nothing that you can do as there is no afterlife. There is no life after this life, right? Unless you want to fix that statement of course.

    10.How is a child being raped a “test” ? Why would “Allah”  test a child with rape? What’s Allah “command “ to a child?
    Now I am 100% certain you don't even understand what I argue about. In the sentence that you responded with this statement, I said,

    "Ok you know what? I'll tell you what I think. Allah or God give this test to see whether we submit to Allah's command or our greed or what we call 'Nafs'. I mean even a child who got raped and died. I believe that even if the child who is raped commits suicide which is a major sin, I believe that he would still enter heaven as he is not matured."

    Now I don't want to claim to know what Allah wanted to test the child. But again, you don't believe in afterlife and judgement and the concept of re compensation of suffering in this world so in your world view, Allah is wrong for letting a child getting raped and doesn't do anything to recompense that. And I'll put an emphasis in my word. In your world view.

    11. So Allah is immoral for watching , I agree as you admit …. “Never said it was moral”   ….Allah is just watching as he doesn’t intervene do you deny this? You didn’t make a coherent response 
    Don't misquote me please. "...Never said it was moral and never said that Allah just merely watch...." I think this is what you want to quote from me. First, doesn't intervene doesn't necessarily that Allah is just watching and neglecting his creator. Again, please read my argument.

    12. I never said rape was moral stop making up stuff I never said where did I say rape was moral ?
    I agree you didn't say that. But you said that Allah says that. I simply refute that point. You neglected every context that I put above and just pick the last sentence. Want me to prove to you that you claim that Allah said that rape is moral?

    "If everything Allah deems moral is moral if Allah said rape was moral it is so , your “um ….yes” would suggest so"

    13.What are you talking about you bring up a subject I never mentioned 
    Oh wait, you don't mention this? I can prove you wrong.

    "Sharia law is brutal and primitive and used to demonise , victimise  and abuse people."

    Since Prophet Muhammad judge by the Shari'ah Law at that time, I pick that example.

    14.You don’t know what constitutes good evidence ? Seriously? You totally ignored my question 
    I do know evidence. Logical or Empirical. I'm asking what evidence would make you certain that there is God or Allah.

    15.I never said that you keep misrepresenting me . You don’t know what is moral or immoral unless it’s informed by the Quran and Allah anything Allah deems moral is moral no argument , you behave like an unthinking  robot no moral decision is yours 
    You know what? This is a misinterpretation from me. I do apologize about that but for your...let's just say 'moral robot argument', I would come back to this.

    16.You totally ignored what I said about subjective morality which was …. "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being ,” Incest is an example in this case of subjective immorality 
    And I challenge that specific morality standard based on what I said. Also, do explain this statement from you. 'Incest is an example in this case of subjective immorality' Do you say that it's still immoral or it's not a part of subjective morality?

    17.In the Muslim world this week thieves will have hands amputated for being thieves , people will be jailed or killed for being apostates or homosexuals , women beaten and tortured , whipped and jailed for breaking Sharia law this is most Muslims view of what they claim is “ objective morality “ …..you can keep it 

    Subjective morality is what every person uses which is why moral codes differ in societies around the world and are ever evolving and changing so called “objective morality “ as believers use the term does not exist as if its demonstrably false ….


    1. God commands acts because they are good.


     That implies God is beholden to a separate, observable standard to determine what's good. If this is the case, then a god is actually not necessary for morality


    2.   Acts are good because they are commanded by God


    That effectively renders morality arbitrary; nothing is intrinsically good, and God could declare something bad one day to be good the next day.



    Ok, you know what, I don't even want to bother to even explain the first claim that you make since there is so much ground to cover and you have little to no proof from the classical Islamic source but you know what, I guess if you do respond to this, Insha'Allah I'll respond to the first argument. For the second one, I'll demonstrate to you why your example is preposterous. First, define good and bad. With your earlier mechanism, "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being", and your statement that people can agree with what's right and wrong, if there is no agreement, there won't be right and wrong. And even if it arises from this, "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being", it's quite literally in totality, subjective no matter how much you want to say that it's right and people will agree to it. One circumstance can lead to many or should I say infinite amount of interpretation. For example, rape. You says rape is wrong right? And I assume it's based on the fact that you hurt a woman, right? You can confirm or deny this. But another person objects to you saying that this rape is justified as it has the most pleasure for the most amount of people which is utilitarianism. Now, there is more people agree with the utilitarianist than you. Are the rape objectively justified?

    And coming back to the point of 'moral robot argument', Allah commanding any morality from Islam it doesn't mean that there is no wisdom behind it. You just gives this assumption that you're not supposed to think if Allah declare something moral or immoral. Also, coming back to the 5th argument, I did challenge that. The challenge exist in this argument as well if you want to see it.

    And with this long argument, I'll try to end with this.

    Swolliw said:
    @Jawadiahmad
    I'll answer this question or at least trying to based on what I know. This answer is based on Islamic perspective since I am a muslim. 

    In which case, you don't know much.

    First of all, this is quite the statement. I don't want to assume anything about you but saying that just because someone is a Muslim they don't know much I think is quite moronic. Why? Anyone can use this argument. Flat earthers can use this argument against scientist or people who believe that earth is round. Even a Muslim can use this against an Atheist. I could say this is a fallacy of Poisoning the Well. But hey, what do I know, right?

    And frankly, I don't think this argument will be satisfactory to any Atheist or people who doesn't believe in God but I'll just say it. Problem of evil arises from your own ignorance. You're picking an attribute of God or Allah and just bashing it forgetting that God or Allah has other attributes such as The most just and the most wise. You picked your perspective and say that this is the right perspective neglecting that other possibility that exist might be true

  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -   edited January 14
    @Jawadiahmad

    What? What do I have to prove it to you?

    If you don’t wish to debate well don’t , no one is forcing you 

     I'm not arguing about the existence of God or Allah. 

    There is no evidence and no decent “arguments “ for the existence of god or Allah 

    I'm just making an argument that for people who believe in Allah, there will be justice at the end of the day from him

    So why are you arguing? If you only want to talk to fellow Muslims what are you doing on this site preaching?

    . I don't need to prove it to you as the prerequisite of this statement is for people who believe in Allah.

    Well then you’re just looking for agreement and preaching to others

    Also I’ve read your lengthy reply after several months and all you’re saying is there is justice in the next world which all Muslims agree with so why are you preaching to me?

    I have never claimed there are gods I have never claimed I can be 100 per cent certain there are none , there is no burden of proof on me to disprove a god the burden is on you to prove what not one person can prove which is the existence of a god 

    Also the burden of proof is on you to prove an afterlife which is something else you have no proof of so can only preach about it

    I wish you would do a bit of basic research into simple concepts like subjective morality as you lazily and stupidly think if one deems incest moral it becomes so as anything individuals deem a moral act becomes so from their perspective.

    You believe there can be no morality without a god which makes you a robot as you cannot tell right from wrong without consulting a “holy book “ to see what Allah has to say , if Allah appeared in the morning and told all Muslims killing children was moral it becomes so 

    Also I said Allah watches daily as children are raped (if he exists) and does nothing , you say he does something but cannot demonstrate what it is he does , also you agree it’s “moral “ for Allah just to watch and not intervene 

    You say ….  For example, rape. You says rape is wrong right?

    Yes ……Remember your god watches and does nothing 

     And I assume it's based on the fact that you hurt a woman, right? You can confirm or deny this. 

    It’s destroys a woman physically and mentally so yes 

    But another person objects to you saying that this rape is justified as it has the most pleasure for the most amount of people which is utilitarianism. 

    Your failure to understand basic statements regards morality is staggering if another person rapes a woman he is not excecising subjective morality which is ….  evaluating each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being ……how is rape empathizing and addressing a woman’s well being ? Please stop saying ridiculous things 

    Now, there is more people agree with the utilitarianist than you

    I said ……  "But I evaluate each situation as it arises based on empathy and well being",  you are making an argument which makes no sense at all , can you try at least to keep up?

    . Are the rape objectively justified?

    What are you even talking about ? Regards rape and Muslims actually praise Muhammad who at 56 consummated his “marriage “ to Aisha when she was 9 …..Muslim “objective morality “ ….LOL 
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad

    You're picking an attribute of God or Allah and just bashing it forgetting that God or Allah has other attributes such as The most just and the most wise.

    If you believe in god it’s up to you to address the problem of evil saying your god is the “most just and wise” is a statement you cannot prove as you have zero proof for a god 

    Also if you call “just and wise “ a god who allows a 56 year old man called Muhammad  consummate a marriage to a 9 year old child there the first problem as you or your god do not even know what evil is 

     You picked your perspective and say that this is the right perspective neglecting that other possibility that exist might be true

    Prove it then ?
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1442 Pts   -  
    @Jawadiahmad
     but saying that just because someone is a Muslim they don't know much I think is quite moronic. Why?
    I did not say nor infer anything of the sort, you did. In fact you said: "This answer is based on Islamic perspective since I am a muslim." and thus made an erroneous conclusion.
    You even said, "I don't want to assume anything about you but......".(then proceeded to do exactly just that) Come on now!!
    It's a bit like the tired old line from a bigot...."I'm not a racist but......" (then proceed to talk racist)

    You then carried on with your sustained personal attack......"Problem of evil arises from your own ignorance." .......which is contrary to the rules of this site and if you persist in this sort of behaviour I will make the appropriate representations to have you removed.
    You then made an assumption based on ignorance......"You picked your perspective and say that this is the right perspective neglecting that other possibility that exist might be true" because there is not another perspective that is true.
    So, do we now have that nonsense out of the way?

    Whether someone is Muslim or Christian or Judaist my point is that they don't know much about the subject matter of this thread because their knowledge retention is very heavily influenced by their faith. By the very nature of their faith they will invariably exclude any knowledge of scientific principles and how it is not feasible or logical that a creator could have made the universe. And indeed you diverted from the gist of the thread which questioned why a creator (or indeed how) would still be continuing to create an expanding universe at an accelerating pace.

    You don't know much, do you?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4664 Pts   -   edited January 14
    I have probably put in over 30,000 hours throughout my life into scientific studies and research, yet the more I do it, the more fun I have: I can draw from this baggage of experience and knowledge to work on progressively sophisticated things. Maybe I am psychotic, but if so, I am psychotic in a good way. :) Hopefully I become more psychotic in this sense as the time goes, and when it is time to kick my legs, I would rather do it while studying properties of some volcano and accidentally dropping into it, than laying in a bed choking on my own saliva.

    If there is indeed a creature out there that has been creating stars and planets for 14 billion years, imagine the baggage of knowledge and experience it has. When it is time for it to die, I imagine it will find a way to go with Universe-wide fireworks!
    Swolliw
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