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What if there is a God who created the heaven and earth and humanity

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If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?
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  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  

    What if there is a God who created the heaven and earth and humanity


    Indeed , what if the god is Allah that’s your goose well and truly cooked isn’t it ?
    OakTownAZeusAres42dallased25Luigi7255
  • piloteerpiloteer 1526 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    Are you trying to scare people into believing God exists?!?!? If anybody believes in God because they're scared that hell may exist, so to get out of going to hell, they believe in God just in case, then they may as well pack their bags and get ready for a nice trip to eternity in hell. Your book says God will not let people into heaven who follow his word out of fear, or "just in case". Telling atheists like me that we must fear not believing in God because "it might be true' will do nothing to convince atheists to embrace the word of God, but if any of them just happen to do it out of fear, then they're not embracing the word of God with the right motivations, because it's a mortal sin to believe in God just in case. That is also true for those who already do believe in God. If they believe in him out of fear, they may not be welcome into the kingdom of heaven.         
    ZeusAres42OakTownA

  • What if something one day appeared to you that presented itself as God. And you had a complete conviction that this is God. You felt him, you knew it in your heart it was him. And then he told you to decapitate the heads of multiple people that were not believers in him. Would you do it?
    OakTownA



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    I think that a creature that created anything should be a little more sophisticated and a little petty than that. The idea that such a god gives any importance what individual humans think about it, let alone punish them for thinking the "wrong" thing, is preposterous and overly anthropocentric.

    Would you be deeply offended if you programmed a virtual world full of NPCs and some of those NPCs would claim that you do not exist? I do not know about you, but to me what some sequence of bits "thinks" is quite inconsequential. ;)
    OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    piloteer said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Are you trying to scare people into believing God exists?!?!? If anybody believes in God because they're scared that hell may exist, so to get out of going to hell, they believe in God just in case, then they may as well pack their bags and get ready for a nice trip to eternity in hell. Your book says God will not let people into heaven who follow his word out of fear, or "just in case". Telling atheists like me that we must fear not believing in God because "it might be true' will do nothing to convince atheists to embrace the word of God, but if any of them just happen to do it out of fear, then they're not embracing the word of God with the right motivations, because it's a mortal sin to believe in God just in case. That is also true for those who already do believe in God. If they believe in him out of fear, they may not be welcome into the kingdom of heaven.         
    Shoe me in the bible were it says God will not  people into heaven who follow his word out of fear.  Proverbs 1:7,The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
    But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    You said (it's a mortal sin to believe in God out of fear), where did you get that from. 
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  

    What if something one day appeared to you that presented itself as God. And you had a complete conviction that this is God. You felt him, you knew it in your heart it was him. And then he told you to decapitate the heads of multiple people that were not believers in him. Would you do it?
    No, because that is not the character of God.
    PutinOakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    I think that a creature that created anything should be a little more sophisticated and a little petty than that. The idea that such a god gives any importance what individual humans think about it, let alone punish them for thinking the "wrong" thing, is preposterous and overly anthropocentric.

    Would you be deeply offended if you programmed a virtual world full of NPCs and some of those NPCs would claim that you do not exist? I do not know about you, but to me what some sequence of bits "thinks" is quite inconsequential. ;)
    God don't punish those that do not believe in him.  He just let them do as they please, and they are devoured by the devil.
    PutinOakTownA
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: decapitation

    @pamelajohnson1


    You are correct. Going by what it says in the bible, decapitation was not your god's thing. He prefered to drown people, commit genocide, inflict plagues, and here's a nice one, kill off the firstborn.
    Decapitation? No. It's not right that he has all the fun, so he left decapitation to allah and his lot.
    OakTownA
  • piloteerpiloteer 1526 Pts   -   edited December 2021
    piloteer said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Are you trying to scare people into believing God exists?!?!? If anybody believes in God because they're scared that hell may exist, so to get out of going to hell, they believe in God just in case, then they may as well pack their bags and get ready for a nice trip to eternity in hell. Your book says God will not let people into heaven who follow his word out of fear, or "just in case". Telling atheists like me that we must fear not believing in God because "it might be true' will do nothing to convince atheists to embrace the word of God, but if any of them just happen to do it out of fear, then they're not embracing the word of God with the right motivations, because it's a mortal sin to believe in God just in case. That is also true for those who already do believe in God. If they believe in him out of fear, they may not be welcome into the kingdom of heaven.         
    Shoe me in the bible were it says God will not  people into heaven who follow his word out of fear.  Proverbs 1:7,The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
    But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    You said (it's a mortal sin to believe in God out of fear), where did you get that from. 

    John 15:9-11 says, “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me .... When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow!”

    https://corechristianity.com/resource-library/articles/obeying-god-out-of-slavish-fear/

    According to the bible and many Christian scholars and believers of God in general, one of the core principles of following God's word is to do so out of love, not fear!! 

    PutinGnosticChristian
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    I see you refused to answer my question again as you have no valid answer, you’re not much of a Christian if you cannot answer basic questions about your beliefs 
    GnosticChristian
  •  @pamelajohnson1
    you’re not much of a Christian if you cannot answer basic questions about your beliefs 

    We are not much of a people if we cannot answer basic questions about our beliefs.

    Is it possible GOD exists and you are just a bad witness in confirming how God is what it is described to be?

    GnosticChristian
  • What does not make sense is the idea a threat being God exists or not, the greatest threat to religion is if God exists as an object of non-religious creation.
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2195 Pts   -   edited December 2021

    What if something one day appeared to you that presented itself as God. And you had a complete conviction that this is God. You felt him, you knew it in your heart it was him. And then he told you to decapitate the heads of multiple people that were not believers in him. Would you do it?
    No, because that is not the character of God.

    Again, you just like @JusinC also appear to be confused about the difference between imagining something like this did happen and being asked what you would do in that situation as opposed to debating if God would ever do this.

    Furthermore, it's also very bold of you to speak for God himself and define his character don't you think?. I am pretty sure it's God himself that defines his own character; not you or I, nor anything else. That is assuming God exists at all.

    And on another point, you both might want to read or re-read the Bible. Both testaments.
    GnosticChristian



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    pamelajohnson1 said:

    God don't punish those that do not believe in him.  He just let them do as they please, and they are devoured by the devil.
    That is like saying, "I am not punishing you by poisoning all of your food. I just let you do as you please, and you die to poisoning".

    This alleged "god" has created all of the world, including the conditions that resulted in the devil devouring humans who do not believe in him. That is not "just letting them do as they please".

    I would think that a designer of the entire world would be a little more... elegant with his, well, design.
    SkepticalOneOakTownAGnosticChristian
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    pamelajohnson1 said:

    God don't punish those that do not believe in him.  He just let them do as they please, and they are devoured by the devil.
    That is like saying, "I am not punishing you by poisoning all of your food. I just let you do as you please, and you die to poisoning".

    This alleged "god" has created all of the world, including the conditions that resulted in the devil devouring humans who do not believe in him. That is not "just letting them do as they please".

    I would think that a designer of the entire world would be a little more... elegant with his, well, design.
    God want children who will forever abide with him.  Some of the angels left their dwelling place and sinned, so God is weeding out the ones who will not stay in their place.  That is why we are here amongst this evil in the world. So, it's your choice. 
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    pamelajohnson1 said:

    God don't punish those that do not believe in him.  He just let them do as they please, and they are devoured by the devil.
    That is like saying, "I am not punishing you by poisoning all of your food. I just let you do as you please, and you die to poisoning".

    This alleged "god" has created all of the world, including the conditions that resulted in the devil devouring humans who do not believe in him. That is not "just letting them do as they please".

    I would think that a designer of the entire world would be a little more... elegant with his, well, design.
    It's the people's choice.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    Given that this god created the children as they are, all of their choices are dictated by its design. It is as much of a choice as it is your choice whether to give the highwayman your wallet or have your throat slit.
    OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Given that this god created the children as they are, all of their choices are dictated by its design. It is as much of a choice as it is your choice whether to give the highwayman your wallet or have your throat slit.
    Yes, it depends on whether you go to heaven or hell.  But with the highway man you can give him your wallet and still get your throat slit. God can do whatever he wants, he's God. He knows everything.  Our wisdom is foolishness to him.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    pamelajohnson1 said:

    God don't punish those that do not believe in him.  He just let them do as they please, and they are devoured by the devil.
    That is like saying, "I am not punishing you by poisoning all of your food. I just let you do as you please, and you die to poisoning".

    This alleged "god" has created all of the world, including the conditions that resulted in the devil devouring humans who do not believe in him. That is not "just letting them do as they please".

    I would think that a designer of the entire world would be a little more... elegant with his, well, design.
    God does as he pleases.  His will is good. It's best not to anger him.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    So can a highwayman with an axe when intercepting an unarmed merchant. The ability to do as one pleases without repercussions for themselves does not in any way speak in favor of their victims making free choices. In other words, your god is a dictator who created conditions in which those who do not obey its will suffer. It is god's choice, not people's.

    As for this will being "good"... I suppose even highwaymen have their spokesmen among theists. :)
    OakTownA
  • If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    God does as he pleases. 

    Yes it pleases him to watch children die of cancer daily it seems 


    His will is good.

    Whats good in an all powerful loving god watch babies die of cancer ?

     It's best not to anger him.


    He is a bully one should not back down to bullies 
    OakTownA
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    Any god who would punish us for being honest and evaluating the evidence and not finding any god(s).....but expects us to just believe on bad evidence (aka faith), isn't a good moral being who I wouldn't want to follow anyways. Giving us knowledge of god(s) wouldn't violate our free will because all of us could still choose to accept or reject this god(s). I personally find the idea of a god who creates beings....just to worship him because I guess it's just really, really, really needy and insecure and wants praise all the time...is very silly. 
    OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    So can a highwayman with an axe when intercepting an unarmed merchant. The ability to do as one pleases without repercussions for themselves does not in any way speak in favor of their victims making free choices. In other words, your god is a dictator who created conditions in which those who do not obey its will suffer. It is god's choice, not people's.

    As for this will being "good"... I suppose even highwaymen have their spokesmen among theists. :)
    It is what it is

  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    God does as he pleases. 

    Yes it pleases him to watch children die of cancer daily it seems 


    His will is good.

    Whats good in an all powerful loving god watch babies die of cancer ?

     It's best not to anger him.


    He is a bully one should not back down to bullies 
    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe it. 
    OakTownAdallased25
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Any god who would punish us for being honest and evaluating the evidence and not finding any god(s).....but expects us to just believe on bad evidence (aka faith), isn't a good moral being who I wouldn't want to follow anyways. Giving us knowledge of god(s) wouldn't violate our free will because all of us could still choose to accept or reject this god(s). I personally find the idea of a god who creates beings....just to worship him because I guess it's just really, really, really needy and insecure and wants praise all the time...is very silly. 
    Read the bible then see if you can get something from it that prove there is a God.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    pamelajohnson1 said:

    It is what it is
    This is a completely meaningless sentence, you realize.

    All of your comments completely missed my original point: that a creature that is able to create an entire Universe from scratch would not care at all what some primitive mammals think about its existence. Your earlier allegiance that disbelieving in god's existence could possibly "anger" it is not sensible.

    pamelajohnson1 said:

    Read the bible then see if you can get something from it that prove there is a God.
    "Read a book" is not an argument. The burden of proof is on you, and it is up to you to propose a reasoning suggesting that there is god. It is not up to other people to read huge ancient fantasy books in order to see that your claim is true.
    OakTownA

  • Still waiting for your response.



  • OakTownAOakTownA 348 Pts   -  
    Any god who would punish us for being honest and evaluating the evidence and not finding any god(s).....but expects us to just believe on bad evidence (aka faith), isn't a good moral being who I wouldn't want to follow anyways. Giving us knowledge of god(s) wouldn't violate our free will because all of us could still choose to accept or reject this god(s). I personally find the idea of a god who creates beings....just to worship him because I guess it's just really, really, really needy and insecure and wants praise all the time...is very silly. 
    Read the bible then see if you can get something from it that prove there is a God.

    I have read the Bible, from cover to cover. It made me stop being a Christian. I wonder if you have read the Bible, especially the Old Testament.

    Earlier, you stated that asking you to decapitate people would not be in "the character of God." Yet he directs his followers to commit genocide of the Amalakites and Midiantites, among others, in Numbers, and also directs his people to kill everyone, including the infants in Deuteronomy 20:16-18. After all, historically the god of your Bible was a god of war. https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-yhwh-became-god-1457732366

    If you believe that your god is knows everything, that means he knew that Lucifer would "fall," and decided to create him anyway, thus creating evil.
    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe it. 
    Are you claiming that cancer is caused by demonic possession? Is it just cancer or all disease? What about birth defects? Can a fetus be possessed but not the person carrying it?

    Do you believe in Original Sin? If so, why would a good god punish the entire world, including plants, for the actions of two people? This is just nor good. If a parent punished their child for their entire life because of something they did wrong when the kid was 6, as a society, we'd consider that child abuse. Yet you have no problem with people being tortured for ETERNITY for disbelief. This is neither good nor just.

    If your god exists, shouldn't it be crystal clear as how to go to heaven? Ask Christians of different denominations, and they will likely tell you different things. Is it good works, belief, or a combination? Or is it all pre-written, and nothing we do will change our fate?
  • If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  

    Still waiting for your response.
    What was the question.  Click on the quote so I can see what the question is, because I can't remember who said what.
  • BarnardotBarnardot 185 Pts   -  
    Like nobody knows that there is a God so there probably isn’t one because it is all made up and when you die you just rot where you are.@pamelajohnson1
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    OakTownA said:
    Any god who would punish us for being honest and evaluating the evidence and not finding any god(s).....but expects us to just believe on bad evidence (aka faith), isn't a good moral being who I wouldn't want to follow anyways. Giving us knowledge of god(s) wouldn't violate our free will because all of us could still choose to accept or reject this god(s). I personally find the idea of a god who creates beings....just to worship him because I guess it's just really, really, really needy and insecure and wants praise all the time...is very silly. 
    Read the bible then see if you can get something from it that prove there is a God.

    I have read the Bible, from cover to cover. It made me stop being a Christian. I wonder if you have read the Bible, especially the Old Testament.

    Earlier, you stated that asking you to decapitate people would not be in "the character of God." Yet he directs his followers to commit genocide of the Amalakites and Midiantites, among others, in Numbers, and also directs his people to kill everyone, including the infants in Deuteronomy 20:16-18. After all, historically the god of your Bible was a god of war. https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-yhwh-became-god-1457732366

    If you believe that your god is knows everything, that means he knew that Lucifer would "fall," and decided to create him anyway, thus creating evil.
    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe it. 
    Are you claiming that cancer is caused by demonic possession? Is it just cancer or all disease? What about birth defects? Can a fetus be possessed but not the person carrying it?

    Do you believe in Original Sin? If so, why would a good god punish the entire world, including plants, for the actions of two people? This is just nor good. If a parent punished their child for their entire life because of something they did wrong when the kid was 6, as a society, we'd consider that child abuse. Yet you have no problem with people being tortured for ETERNITY for disbelief. This is neither good nor just.

    If your god exists, shouldn't it be crystal clear as how to go to heaven? Ask Christians of different denominations, and they will likely tell you different things. Is it good works, belief, or a combination? Or is it all pre-written, and nothing we do will change our fate?
    You don't understand how demons work.  When the devil was kicked out of heaven, he fell into the second heaven.  That's where he and his demons' dwell. They come in and out of time and space.  They want to find rest from going to and fro so they watch for open doors in humans to enter in.  People who cuss all the time, have a profanity spirit, one that lie all the time have a lying spirit, addicts have an addition spirit etc. etc. There are spirits of cancer and other diseases.  They don't teach that in church because they are still babies.  People are not tortured for their disbelief; they are damned for taking on the traits of the devil.  There are only two ways to live either in Christ or of the world. The world is run by Satan.
    OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Barnardot said:
    Like nobody knows that there is a God so there probably isn’t one because it is all made up and when you die you just rot where you are.@pamelajohnson1
    I imagine that is what you hope, but it is not so.  Can't you fell that you are inside your flesh looking out. the blood gives the flesh life.  The lights that are on inside your flesh is you.  When the flesh dies that part of you that looks out of the flesh is still alive.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    If you read the bible, you may understand.
  • If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    If you read the bible, you may understand.
    Why should anyone take the Bible seriously?
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe 


    You are a prime example of how religious indoctrination can lead to mental illness …..get help please 

  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 35 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    I think that a creature that created anything should be a little more sophisticated and a little petty than that. The idea that such a god gives any importance what individual humans think about it, let alone punish them for thinking the "wrong" thing, is preposterous and overly anthropocentric.

    Would you be deeply offended if you programmed a virtual world full of NPCs and some of those NPCs would claim that you do not exist? I do not know about you, but to me what some sequence of bits "thinks" is quite inconsequential. ;)
    I do like to respond to this bit for a moment. To clarify, my point is based on Islamic perspective.

    In the argument that @MayCaesar give above in which I do humbly disagrees with, it points out that such god gives any shape or form of importance in what humans think. Now as a Muslim, I believe this world is designed for us as a test. Now I do willing to elaborate this but I will touch this later if you wish to. Now in this world, as a Muslim, I do not think that Allah or God really cares of what each individual opinions are. Rather, it is us who should care for it. In a test, we know that there is a right answer and some wrong answers. What Allah or God provides is clues. Clues about his existence and if people believe in his existence, Allah or God must bring down guidance. After all if we want to see the example, imagine a Computer or PC have no guide on how to install it. There is no book who instruct how to build the computer or PC. Then, a random person who hasn't had the experience of building a PC came along and try to build it. Would he be able to succeed? Maybe. But it will be much harder and if not careful, as some computers or PC are quite delicate, there will be permanent damage. This world in the perspective of Islam is a test to see whether someone control their greed or what we call 'Nafs' and whether they submit to it.

    As per the argument whether what if there is a god that creates heaven and earth and humanity, I will put my perspective to Atheism to judge this. If there is such thing, Allah or God would never let evil just be evil. Now The Problem of Evil is a different matter entirely but if it is true that there is a god, in the perspective of Atheism, whether I believe in that god or not, I would certainly believe that he would never let someone death as their end. As if I would like to put the circumstances, if someone who extract money by wrongdoing people, let's just say he lend them money and demand quite the interest, this person would have retribution and the people who has been wronged will be recompense for what they have experienced. Otherwise if there is the flip side meaning that there is no god, I would never believe in morality as it wouldn't matter at the end. Pleasure is pleasure and pain is pain. I would get as much pleasure and I will prevent myself from experiencing pain.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe 


    You are a prime example of how religious indoctrination can lead to mental illness …..get help please 

    What do you think mental illness come from?  Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?  What do they talk about?  They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about. I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    If you read the bible, you may understand.
    Why should anyone take the Bible seriously?
    Start with the old testament .  Listen to it.  Go to bible gateway and listen to it.  You get more out of it that way.  You should take it seriously because it's true.  
  • DeeDee 4771 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    What do you think mental illness come from?  

    In your case religion indoctrination 

    Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?  What do they talk about?  They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about. 

    They talk about a variety of things , but I would guess you are talking about what you talk about when your illness is at a peak 

    I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one.

    It doesn’t scare me at all I worked in mental health my field was child psychiatry so I know what I speak of 
    OakTownA
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    Jawadiahmad said:

    I do like to respond to this bit for a moment. To clarify, my point is based on Islamic perspective.

    In the argument that @MayCaesar give above in which I do humbly disagrees with, it points out that such god gives any shape or form of importance in what humans think. Now as a Muslim, I believe this world is designed for us as a test. Now I do willing to elaborate this but I will touch this later if you wish to. Now in this world, as a Muslim, I do not think that Allah or God really cares of what each individual opinions are. Rather, it is us who should care for it. In a test, we know that there is a right answer and some wrong answers. What Allah or God provides is clues. Clues about his existence and if people believe in his existence, Allah or God must bring down guidance. After all if we want to see the example, imagine a Computer or PC have no guide on how to install it. There is no book who instruct how to build the computer or PC. Then, a random person who hasn't had the experience of building a PC came along and try to build it. Would he be able to succeed? Maybe. But it will be much harder and if not careful, as some computers or PC are quite delicate, there will be permanent damage. This world in the perspective of Islam is a test to see whether someone control their greed or what we call 'Nafs' and whether they submit to it.

    As per the argument whether what if there is a god that creates heaven and earth and humanity, I will put my perspective to Atheism to judge this. If there is such thing, Allah or God would never let evil just be evil. Now The Problem of Evil is a different matter entirely but if it is true that there is a god, in the perspective of Atheism, whether I believe in that god or not, I would certainly believe that he would never let someone death as their end. As if I would like to put the circumstances, if someone who extract money by wrongdoing people, let's just say he lend them money and demand quite the interest, this person would have retribution and the people who has been wronged will be recompense for what they have experienced. Otherwise if there is the flip side meaning that there is no god, I would never believe in morality as it wouldn't matter at the end. Pleasure is pleasure and pain is pain. I would get as much pleasure and I will prevent myself from experiencing pain.
    I fail to see what purpose it would serve for a powerful being to create a virtual world just to populate it with primitive NPCs and to test them. As a lab experiment or a simulation, it would make a certain sense - however, a being powerful enough to create such a Universe certainly would also be powerful enough to create much more advanced beings whose behavior would allow it to make much more insightful observations.
    It would also make little sense to create such a vast Universe and give such a tiny fraction of it over to humans for whom the entire Universe is created. It would be like building a huge MMORPG world where it takes 14 billion years to run from one corner of the map to the other, yet only make 0.00000000000000000000001% of it actually contain some meaningful content. It would just be a huge waste of resources.

    To your analogy with building a PC, every component I have ever purchased had a thorough manual explaining exactly what steps I need to take to be guaranteed (assuming I do not make horrible mistakes) to integrate it into the circuit and make it functional. Imagine instead if you bought a bunch of PC components with no experience of assembling PCs on your own, and did not receive any manuals, but received the Lord of the Rings book with cryptic clues hidden throughout it which, if you manage to decipher somehow, would eventually allow you to figure out how to assemble the PC.
    Again, it just seems extremely inefficient. One would think that a powerful being able to create an entire Universe from scratch could come up with a better instruction manual than one or a few "holy books" most claims in which contradict basic observations.

    Morality, to me, exactly is the system tasked to facilitate maximization of long-term pleasure and minimization of long-term suffering. There is no other purpose that it has. I do not see how the fact that it "does not matter in the end" make it useless. True, we all die eventually and our consciousness, to our best knowledge, then terminates. But it is not just the destination that matters; the path matters much more in this particular case. You are going to die, but there is a large variety of lives you can live prior to that and experiences you can have. The fact that 100 years from now I will probably be gone does not at all make me want to experience a lot of pleasure today any less.
    On the contrary, if I knew that there was afterlife awaiting me, then this life would be much less of a deal. It would be like knowing that in a week you are going to get 1 billion dollars in your bank account: that gives you a license to mess up today, to make a lot of mistakes and not worry about the consequences, because in just a week you will have enough resources to fix (nearly)all of those consequences. But if this life is all there is, then it means that you should get the most out of it while you can.
    So, contrary to what many religious people claim, to me the fact that death is the end only makes this life matter much more, not less.
  • If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    If you read the bible, you may understand.
    Why should anyone take the Bible seriously?
    Start with the old testament .  Listen to it.  Go to bible gateway and listen to it.  You get more out of it that way.  You should take it seriously because it's true.  
    Why do you think the Bible is true?
    OakTownA
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe 


    You are a prime example of how religious indoctrination can lead to mental illness …..get help please 

    What do you think mental illness come from?  Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?  What do they talk about?  They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about. I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one.
    They don't just talk about angels and demons though, they talk about all kinds of crazy stuff like aliens abducting them, or speaking to them telepathically, or that there's a secret race of lizard people living in human form among us right now, some believe they are reincarnations of famous dead people like Elvis and yes, sometimes Jesus or Mohammed. They also sometimes see things that are invisible to the rest of us, such as dead people, or imaginary made up people, or talking animals, or mythical creatures. You only took the case of people who see gods and angels because you believe that somehow proves your god exists. It does not, anymore than the guy who says he's regularly abducted by aliens nightly is justified in his beliefs, or the guy who believes he's reincarnated Elvis, or the guy who sees talking animals. Unfortunately for you, Neuroscience DOES actually understand what these things are and why they happen. Some brain issues are treatable, some as of now are not. What we do know is that in all the history of science and mankind when looking into the answer to these types of issues, every time the real answer was found....the answer has never, ever, ever been gods, demons, angels or anything supernatural. 
    OakTownA
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 569 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    Oh boy do I have a lot to say here.

    "What do you think mental illness come from?"

    From either A. birth (Like Autism) B. Isolation or C. Terrible events happening in succession.

    "Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?"

    If you're also including Autism in your definition, then yes because I have Autism.  :)

    "What do they talk about?"

    They mostly talk like normal people. Not the crazy noises you see in movies. I admit, some do, but not most of them.

    "They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about."

    No, no they don't. If anything, that means believing in God results in mental illness. :)

    "I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one."

    You're the one brushing it off here.
    OakTownA
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    If there is a God who created everything, and you are denying him when you die and leave this earth does everything stop or do you face the God who made you?

    In this hypothetical, has the creator made his existence detectable? Why does this deity need my acknowledgment? Would oblivion or meeting god be my choice...it kind of seems like that would be up to the god. You make meeting a creator sound like a bad thing...why is that? 


    Because there is judgement on how you lived this life, to determine if you are worthy to spend eternity with him.

    Oh I see, you're assuming the god you believe in is the 'God that created everything'. Why do you believe that and why should anyone else take that belief seriously? 
    If you read the bible, you may understand.
    Why should anyone take the Bible seriously?
    Start with the old testament .  Listen to it.  Go to bible gateway and listen to it.  You get more out of it that way.  You should take it seriously because it's true.  
    Why do you think the Bible is true?
    A number of passages in the Bible predict future events in great detail—events that were future to the writers but are now in our past. For example, in Daniel 2 a prophecy predicted the next three world empires (up to and including the Roman Empire) and their falls. If the Bible were not inspired by God, how could its mere human writers possibly have known about events in the distant future?
    OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Oh boy do I have a lot to say here.

    "What do you think mental illness come from?"

    From either A. birth (Like Autism) B. Isolation or C. Terrible events happening in succession.

    "Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?"

    If you're also including Autism in your definition, then yes because I have Autism.  :)

    "What do they talk about?"

    They mostly talk like normal people. Not the crazy noises you see in movies. I admit, some do, but not most of them.

    "They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about."

    No, no they don't. If anything, that means believing in God results in mental illness. :)

    "I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one."

    You're the one brushing it off here.
    If they are born with it, that means a spirit entered in when they were being born.  With autism they do not have to be institutionalized and medicated to be brought back.  The ones that are diagnosed with schizophrenia and sometimes bipolar have to be institutionalized when the get off their medication. The spirit confuses them and make them crazy.
    OakTownA
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 569 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1

    "If they are born with it, that means a spirit entered in when they were being born."

    No, it doesn't because there's no "spirit". If by "spirit", you mean "crazy" then you're right.

    "With autism, they do not have to be institutionalized and medicated to be brought back."

    Some people do have to be institutionalized with effects from Autism, yet they can't cure Autism, they can cure the effects of Autism.

    "The ones that are diagnosed with schizophrenia and sometimes bipolar have to be institutionalized when the get off their medication."

    What even is this sentence? They get institutionalized if the medication doesn't work, or they just go ahead and put them in an institution.

    "
    The spirit confuses them and make them crazy."

    Seems the spirit is in you, bud.  ;) 
    OakTownA
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • OakTownAOakTownA 348 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @pamelajohnson1

    Cancer comes from the devil.  Christians are supposed to be casting out demons, but they don't.  Because the whole world has been deceived.  The church goers are Christians, but they are babies.  They are like you they read about unclean spirits in the bible, but they act like they don't really believe 


    You are a prime example of how religious indoctrination can lead to mental illness …..get help please 

    What do you think mental illness come from?  Have you been around someone who is mentally ill?  What do they talk about?  They talk about God, angels, if you are ever around someone who has gone off take note of what they talk about. I think that you brush it off because it scares you.  You're not the only one.
    I work in mental health. I can assure you that not everyone with a mental illness experience delusions, and those that do have a wide variety of delusions. The most common mental illnesses are general anxiety disorder, depression, and bipolar.

    Your thinking around diseases is literally Medieval. We know what causes, or at least what mechanisms, cause illnesses. Are viruses and bacteria demons? What about genetic illnesses or chronic illnesses? What about babies that are born with defects? Was the fetus possessed but not the mother? There are people who die every year from curable diseases because they think like you. My Grandmother was a Christian, believed with her whole heart in God and Jesus, read her Bible and prayed daily. She died of cancer. Was she possessed? How can you tell if a person is possessed? Either you are a troll, or incredibly ignorant. If it is the latter, please educate yourself!
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