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Sacrificed for what?

Debate Information

Jesus was not god, he was the son of god chosen as the messiah. Jesus was influenced by god almost sort of like saying he was possessed. What exactly was the point in god sacrificing a human to bring religious beliefs to bring fear and faith and why in the form of a sacrifice?. Was jesus sacrifice ground zero for all the different civilizations practice for sacrifices?. And is this somewhat proof that christianity is also similar to other sorcery practice like black magic, voodoo, and witchcraft involving the ritual of sacrificing something just as god did with Jesus? Was Jesus sacrifice a ritualized practice of that like the aztecs?



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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    What I do not understand is how one can, through their actions, redeem someone else; how one can cleanse someone else from their "sins" by taking the punishment for them.

    Imagine if the system of justice worked this way: someone murders someone, someone else chooses to go to jail in their place, and the murderer walks away free. I am not saying that such a system cannot exist in principle or be justified somehow, but it simply is not a system found anywhere on this planet across the whole recorded history, including even heavily Christian periods in heavily Christian countries' history.

    Jesus' sacrifice simply seems inconsistent with other practices adopted by the very cultures venerating this sacrifice.
    GnosticChristianMeex
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    What I don't understand is why they call it a sacrifice? Sacrifice means giving up something and they call Jesus dying on the cross the "ultimate sacrifice for our sins". Well...he was tortured for a few days and then died for a weekend and then rose again to go on to be god. So what did he give up exactly....a weekend? Then got to go on to be god? I'll take that deal any day! They should really change their sayings to "Jesus gave up a weekend for your sins", but of course that sounds much less impressive, but is much more accurate. Meanwhile the average soldier, police officer or fire fighter who dies while saving others...does not get to come back to life after a weekend, does not get divine powers or get to "be god", they just die leaving their families behind. So the average soldier, police officer or fire fighter gives up far more than Jesus did! So then why do christians revere Jesus so much? Brainwashing. 
    GnosticChristian
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    when christ sacrificed himself for all  humanity in order to please the gods for all our sins was this before or after god casted lucifer into hell?. Because if this sacrifice was for pleasing the gods out of respect instead of sacrificing christ in order to win the faith of people against the devil then all I see here is god being sacrificed either as an innocent clueless man who was chosen randomly to take the blame or an important standard of pract8ce expected from humans for the gods as aztecs were as an example. I know speaking about it is against gods rules and i understand  that but i am not saying i dont believe in god because i do even with all the funny stuff but im speculatijg the what if stone.

    The truth of the matter is that god died for us.. but nobody is asking what if god chose not to die for us. what would of happened then? Even after christs sacrifice, nothing changed actually. everything continued to roll out the same
    GnosticChristianMeex
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    If I sacrificed my freedom or my life to take the punishment for a murderer, what good would that achieve? None. It would change nothing, it would only make things worse. The murdered person would still be a murdered person and the loved ones of the murder victim would have to see the killer living freely amongst them and the wrong person in jail.
    It's an exercise in madness and it is incredible to think that such a thing is so central to the Christian faith.
    You can take a person's punishment, but you can't take away their wrongdoing.
    GnosticChristian
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    well there has been new evidence found in roman texts indicating that the roman empire created the story of jesus christ in order to achieve rule, control, and order from people. If people feared going to hell for wrong doing and a ticket to heaven for behaving without the roman empire involved, then you have not the fear of roman laws but the fear of a god separate from that of a system everyone can abide. Google it.

    If we humans could trick fish to believe that life expands to the end of an aquarium, then I am sure if aliens do exist the same can be in effect to us. Historical texts, documented events, hints and parts of history as we try putting together the truth could be mislead by beings from the universe.



    we are missing only one piece of our dna, why is that?


    So as you live your life and experience to learn love, hate, or no interest in things we begin to think. We resort to faith. What we sacrifice ourselves for others or another thing in present day situations is an indoctrinated belief that you are doing the right thing and you feel good about it. As human beings we thrive on emotions. We have evolved to figure out how to control our emotions by setting forth a religious figure in our mind that have managed our social behavior. It is this same social behavior controled via emotions that we have been able to thrive as a species and sets us distinct from all other species on the planet. The sacrifice of christ therefore has had an effect on all of us.
    GnosticChristianMeex
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty

    I would also ask what it means to sacrifice "for someone" who did not ask for this sacrifice in the first place. For example, if someone commits a suicide right now and in a death note hands their rusty car to me, but I do not want that car - then how is it a sacrifice? As I see it, sacrificing for others is only valid when they asked for or, at least, gave a note of acceptance of that sacrifice. You cannot sacrifice for someone without their permission, so to speak.

    I do not see objectively any good that Jesus' death did to me 2,000 years ago. As I see it, the guy rebelled against the government and was executed, which is unfortunate - but, from my perspective, he would have been wiser to live a long and happy life and not worry about someone living two millennia after his death.

    Back when I lived in Russia, everyone told me how I was supposed to "feel pride" and "pay back to" the ancestors who died on the fields of World War 2, protecting the country. I never understood how I could possibly have any duty to those who, first, mostly died before I was born, and second, who I never asked to lay their lives down for anything. They did it out of their own volition, honoring whatever values they did - and I had no part in it, hence anything that they did is on them, and the sacrifice was not for me, but for them.

    Same argument applies to all those people in the US who claim that my prosperity is partially a product of labor of black slaves of the past, so I owe blacks today something. Aside from it being incoherent in itself (why would I owe anything to blacks today based on what blacks did over a century ago?), it is also just how the world works: we all build our livelihood on top of the giants of the past. I did not expect any people living in the past to do anything for me, and just as much other people should not expect me to do anything to honor them or repay them, let alone their descendants.

    All these arguments stem from the faulty idea according to which people share responsibility for others' actions. To me this seems contradictory to the concept of responsibility as I see it. One can only be responsible for their actions; actions of other people, unless coerced into by someone else, are their sole responsibility.
    GnosticChristian
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    You say you feel no duty to those who died, that their deaths were before you were born. Perhaps you need to consider that without these people dying you would not have been born at all. 
    I am not surprised at the disrespect you show for those who died in defeating the Nazis, probably the most evil force ever inflicted on the world, as you have openly admitted in past posts, and indeed your present one, that you don't have too much concern for others.
    You have shown no respect for those who gave you and countless others the opportunity to live a life free from tyranny.
    What respect I may have had for you is evaporating fast.

     
    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -   edited January 10
    @JoeKerr

    Well, I never asked to be born or for others to die to make it happen, so that is easy. As for "disrespect", I never said that I do not respect what they did: I said that I do not see it as a sacrifice for me and that I never asked for them to do so. And I do not owe anything to them; neither do you. Similarly, 75 years later, assuming I am dead, no one will owe anything to me - hopefully, by that time humanity evolves enough to collectively realize that. It would be painful for me to learn that 70 years down the line there would be statues venerating me... if they would, at least those statues should be painted in rainbow colors.

    I am truly heartbroken to hear that.  :'( I thought there was something between us!
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    You may not have said that you were being disrespectful, but the tone of your post most certainly was. and your attempt at sarcasm was rather childish.
    I hope you don't adopt the attitude of, "I didn't ask them to do it, so I owe them nothing" in your daily life.
    If someone out of kindness did you a good turn, would you just dismiss it with I didn't ask them to do it so I owe them nothing, not even a thank you? I really hope not.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -   edited January 10
    @JoeKerr

    Well, if you read imaginary lines between the actual lines, you can find any tone in any statement. Fair enough! And, what can I say, I have always been 14 years old deep inside. Which, probably, has allowed me to get away with far more than I should.

    The fact that I do not owe someone anything does not imply that I do not appreciate kindness. Anyone who I have interacted a lot with in real life will attest to the fact that I never leave a good deed unaddressed. But I do it because I like to, not because I feel obliged to.
    In fact, the idea that I have some "duty" before my friends, for example, would denigrate the relationship in my eyes. Conversely, I would like to think that my friends treat me so well because they genuinely like me and want me to be well, not because they have taskmasters at the backs of their skulls, lashing them and yelling, "You must treat him well, or else!"
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar:

       How could you have asked them not to make you if you weren’t even born yet. Your ancestors never asked to be made either they just did just. Its just the way it is. Scientific research explains how 2/10 times parents have a baby, there is one that seems like it wasn’t done right. You’re part of that 2/10 so it’s okay to think like that, we know there’s more of you out there. What I’m concerned about is if you are in a community mental state and not in a critical state of mind where you smush part of you bit by bit into a can until it swallows you. It could be dangerous for you and others so if you are experiencing any social issues I suggest you get screened by a therapist just to safe. I would say you are either a rainbow or a fairy but then again you could be the above male. Anyways, just like you say you werent asked to be created, well they didnt ask to create someone like you either is that straight?. You didnt ask them to die for you because you werent alive to say it. Therefore the only one thinking imaginary lines here is you.


    @JoeKerr

       You cant win arguments with this one at this topic. It’s almost identical to the other kid on here that high fives plaffowaffel watever his name is in fist bumping em in every thread they post on. Its like playing against a tennis ball player that has six arms.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty

    Correct: no one, to my best knowledge, knew before my birth who I was going to turn out to be. My parents certainly did not. They flipped a coin and got what they got. I am happy to report that they are very happy with the way I turned out; so are other people dear to me. ;)

    Had it been different, it would not affect my argument. If I turned out to be a petty criminal, for instance, then that would be a logical outcome of the actions other people took - without knowing their consequences. That is how life works: most of the time you act somewhat blindly - and, whatever outcome you get, you (if you are wise) accept and move on. And consequences of your actions certainly do not owe anything to you.

    If you wrote a computer program that accidentally gained consciousness, that computer program would not owe anything to you - and would have a full moral right (in my book) to take off on its own and never interact with you again. Similarly, every child has the moral right to leave their parents forever and never contact them. Similarly, every person has the moral right to not do anything for someone who did something for them. It is not necessarily a good thing to do, but it is not a prohibited one.
  • KhasimAmeduKhasimAmedu 136 Pts   -   edited January 11
    The entire narrative of the Biblical God establishing a law that cannot be followed, because of corrupt human nature that he himself decreed, then not being pleased by something he is responsible for, so he decides to descend to earth, as a God-incarnate in the form of a poor Galilean peasant and Jewish apocalyptic rabbi in order serve as a unecessary human sacrifice to redeem mankind from the curse of the law and that he himself implemented is laughable.  
    GnosticChristian
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -   edited January 15
    The entire narrative of the Biblical God establishing a law that cannot be followed, because of corrupt human nature that he himself decreed, then not being pleased by something he is responsible for, so he decides to descend to earth, as a God-incarnate in the form of a poor Galilean peasant and Jewish apocalyptic rabbi in order serve as a unecessary human sacrifice to redeem mankind from the curse of the law and that he himself implemented is laughable.  


    Remember that you are talking about humanity at an age where people were barely upgrading homes into straw from the outdated ones made from mud. People were hungry and I imagine a struggle, rendering many vulnerable to any signs of opportunity. You cant compare your logic to those who lived in an age of men who believed the sun was an eye. While you type and text with google today, they were lucky if they had a piece of papyrus or ink to write on. Your comment of "sacrifice" and "law" being laughable is laughable and sad. It's almost like hearing Jeffy make fun of the normal guy. Throws you off being funny but only because you know its straight up retarded.


    God puts us in a very tough position but ultimately wins my vote for faith. Whatever the answer is I wouldnt feel dumb choosing the odds going with god. Thats why many of us are neutral. We choose not to believe in god but at the same time choose not to cross the line when it comes to doing anything bad you feel you can go to hell/trouble with. God or law, the neutral human mind is bordered by good and bad regardless of beliefs.
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  

    On Jesus dying for Christians. 

    Try to think in a moral way.

    It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

    Christians have swallowed a lie, and don’t care how evil they make Jesus, to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

    It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

    To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

    Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.


    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

     

    Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

     

    Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
    Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

    Regards
    DL

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    The entire narrative of the Biblical God establishing a law that cannot be followed, because of corrupt human nature that he himself decreed, then not being pleased by something he is responsible for, so he decides to descend to earth, as a God-incarnate in the form of a poor Galilean peasant and Jewish apocalyptic rabbi in order serve as a unecessary human sacrifice to redeem mankind from the curse of the law and that he himself implemented is laughable.  
    Good thinking.

    Remember though that Christian dogma and bible say that sin is a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

    It is necessary to both nature and Christianity, which is basically a naturalist religion, that was ruined by belief in the supernatural.

    Our continuing evolution is dependent on sin and evil as they are the result of our necessary competing with each other.

    Have you heard them sing their Exsultet hymn during Thanks Giving.

    Christians are consistent, even as they have lost the ability to do apologetics for their religion.

    The Church never wanted a religiously knowledgeable people, and that is exactly what the world now has.

    Religious dummies who cannot do apologetics for their immoral homophobic and misogynous genocidal God loving religions.

    That is also why posts like this that speaks of morals, Christians run away from.

    It is a lonely life for those who try to talk moral sense to Christians.

    They just keep their heads in the sand.

    Regards
    DL 


     

  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    I once knew a man named Joe who wanted to commit suicide because he lost his job, wife, and kids. He drove up to the mountains and found a cliff with a mortal fall. As he stood at the edge of the cliff ready to jump, the reflection of a shiny object bouncing off the sun at a distance grabbed his attention. From afar the shiny object was a bracelet that a man was wearing. Joe couldnt believe what else he also saw. Looking closely at the man not so far from him he realized the man was dancing but not only was he dancing, the man had no arms!. Immediately, Joe re evaluated his decision to jump abd snapped out of it. Here was about to end his life intact and this man without arms is dancing full of joy. Joe went over to the man dancing walked up to him and thanked him for saving his life. When the man turned over to look at Joe he replied, “Im not dancing at all brother, I have the worse itch ive ever had in my life between both buttcheeks and i cant scratch!.



    Dont over estimate your knowledge.
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    I once knew a man named Joe who wanted to commit suicide because he lost his job, wife, and kids. He drove up to the mountains and found a cliff with a mortal fall. As he stood at the edge of the cliff ready to jump, the reflection of a shiny object bouncing off the sun at a distance grabbed his attention. From afar the shiny object was a bracelet that a man was wearing. Joe couldnt believe what else he also saw. Looking closely at the man not so far from him he realized the man was dancing but not only was he dancing, the man had no arms!. Immediately, Joe re evaluated his decision to jump abd snapped out of it. Here was about to end his life intact and this man without arms is dancing full of joy. Joe went over to the man dancing walked up to him and thanked him for saving his life. When the man turned over to look at Joe he replied, “Im not dancing at all brother, I have the worse itch ive ever had in my life between both buttcheeks and i cant scratch!.



    Dont over estimate your knowledge.
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    I once knew a man named Joe who wanted to commit suicide because he lost his job, wife, and kids. He drove up to the mountains and found a cliff with a mortal fall. As he stood at the edge of the cliff ready to jump, the reflection of a shiny object bouncing off the sun at a distance grabbed his attention. From afar the shiny object was a bracelet that a man was wearing. Joe couldnt believe what else he also saw. Looking closely at the man not so far from him he realized the man was dancing but not only was he dancing, the man had no arms!. Immediately, Joe re evaluated his decision to jump abd snapped out of it. Here was about to end his life intact and this man without arms is dancing full of joy. Joe went over to the man dancing walked up to him and thanked him for saving his life. When the man turned over to look at Joe he replied, “Im not dancing at all brother, I have the worse itch ive ever had in my life between both buttcheeks and i cant scratch!.



    Dont over estimate your knowledge.

    @bjinthirty
    If he didn't have any arms....where was he wearing his bracelet? It was a funny story though. 
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    Remember that you are talking about humanity at an age where people were barely upgrading homes into straw from the outdated ones made from mud. People were hungry and I imagine a struggle, rendering many vulnerable to any signs of opportunity. You cant compare your logic to those who lived in an age of men who believed the sun was an eye. While you type and text with google today, they were lucky if they had a piece of papyrus or ink to write on. Your comment of "sacrifice" and "law" being laughable is laughable and sad. It's almost like hearing Jeffy make fun of the normal guy. Throws you off being funny but only because you know its straight up retarded.
    God puts us in a very tough position but ultimately wins my vote for faith. Whatever the answer is I wouldnt feel dumb choosing the odds going with god. Thats why many of us are neutral. We choose not to believe in god but at the same time choose not to cross the line when it comes to doing anything bad you feel you can go to hell/trouble with. God or law, the neutral human mind is bordered by good and bad regardless of beliefs.
    If you are just "choosing the odds going with god", then don't you think an all powerful being would know that you aren't really being sincere and just trying to avoid hell? The god of the bible specifically doesn't really care what you do, it's all about what you believe, after all, it says in 3 different places in the bible that the only unforgiveable sin is non-belief. So if you just aren't doing anything bad according to your view, claim to believe, but aren't really following all the instructions of being a "good christian" and following the faith, then basically you are just being a politician trying to lie your way into winning an election by pretending to be a christian....except there's only one vote that counts, and that vote knows your mind and heart (allegedly). So even if you chose the odds and claimed to believe, it doesn't guarantee you will avoid hell. As far as "faith", there isn't a belief in the world that you couldn't justify using faith. Faith isn't a win, it's giving up and believing regardless of evidence or rationality. For those that are "neutral", we don't choose not to do bad things to avoid hell, we do it because there's value in living in a society where people aren't garbage to one another. It doesn't take a book, a god, or anything other than a functioning brain and empathy to see the value in caring for one another. 
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    @dallased25

    if I were to go based off odds the odds would equal aliens not god. So no I am not going against the odds.

    I am not a politician lying my way into heaven by pretending to be a good christian. Lets say rhetorically speaking I come across a stranger in a crowded shopping place who out of nowhere a demon comes ripping out of the ground slapping him around. I would helplessly risk my skin fighting this demon just because he is opposite of my beliefs. So you see it is not pretending when you put your life to defend what you believe in.


    Yes I know it doesnt take a book or a god or anything but a functioning brain with empathy to see the values of caring for one another. But remember that before we were tamed humand we were neanderthals who behaved pretty wild. We are animals nonetheless. Animals who were tamed off the belief of good and bad. Your functioning brain you speak of developed from the same concept except you were not alive to witness the evolutionary timeline when it happened to knowingly apply this logic to your assessment. So yes all you need is a brain not god but your brain wasnt made yesterday it comes from years and years of development plastered data in history. Sort of like when you breed a dog breed and the breeder works his best to pass on the good genes like inheriting the gene of being a guard dog or protector to the young pups. The pups have no idea where there skills or knowledge comes from because its been hardwired onto em.



    I lost track of what we were talking about now. does anyone else wonder why the f anyone would eat corndogs?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty

    I think that the fact that you acknowledge that humans are just animals shows that you have risen above common animals and, therefore, do not need the same suboptimal tools that common animals may need to survive and thrive. The idea that humans need religion because they are incapable of living by reason itself can only be a produce of reason; the fact that such deep ideas have arisen suggests to me that they are no longer needed. It sounds somewhat counter-intuitive, and, maybe, ironic, but it is inevitable: humans that claim that they need something other than reason with that very claim prove that they do not need it.

    Religion to an intellectually curious person in this sense is like a heavy metal stick for an old man having trouble walking: if he can walk with this heavy stick, then he has a good enough physique that he does not need a stick; and if he cannot, then it is of no use to him either.

    People often make claims among these lines: "Humans are not robots, they have emotions and feelings and, thus, are irrational". But I do not see how having emotions and feelings necessarily makes you irrational. As long as you have a thinking brain, you can account for the biases that emotions and feelings produce and still act perfectly reasonably. In fact, feelings and emotions only make reason more efficient, as they provide a drive for you to use it more actively. In science, for example, excitement is not a detriment to success, but a preliminary for it. And while feelings and emotions may provide distractions, as long as one keeps them in check when necessary, they are a boon, not a curse.

    I also do not buy Jordan Peterson-like argument that knocking religion out from under people is a terrible idea, because in the ensuing vacuum they will gravitate to even less rational ideas. It is a false dichotomy: there does not have to be a vacuum there, and religion can be replaced by reason. It does not have to be replaced by naked mathematics to which most people cannot relate emotionally; it can be replaced just as much by a fiction-based storytelling, as long as it is merely a convenient framework to use to represent the reason-based approach, and as long as the person understands that it is such.

    I have never found science boring, for example. People who say that "science has no soul, unlike religion" say something that I cannot relate to. People saying that, probably, have had bad teachers, and their parents made some mistakes as well. But nothing is ever lost permanently, and they can learn to find science fascinating if they set their minds to it.
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    The ability to have “reason” only exists because of choice. Without the ability to choose, reason wouldnt exist. And the ability to choose originates from choosing right from wrong. When people reason, they reason because there are choices. And to have a choice means to have two or more sides to choose from in order to reason.
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    @dallased25

    if I were to go based off odds the odds would equal aliens not god. So no I am not going against the odds.

    I am not a politician lying my way into heaven by pretending to be a good christian. Lets say rhetorically speaking I come across a stranger in a crowded shopping place who out of nowhere a demon comes ripping out of the ground slapping him around. I would helplessly risk my skin fighting this demon just because he is opposite of my beliefs. So you see it is not pretending when you put your life to defend what you believe in.


    Yes I know it doesnt take a book or a god or anything but a functioning brain with empathy to see the values of caring for one another. But remember that before we were tamed humand we were neanderthals who behaved pretty wild. We are animals nonetheless. Animals who were tamed off the belief of good and bad. Your functioning brain you speak of developed from the same concept except you were not alive to witness the evolutionary timeline when it happened to knowingly apply this logic to your assessment. So yes all you need is a brain not god but your brain wasnt made yesterday it comes from years and years of development plastered data in history. Sort of like when you breed a dog breed and the breeder works his best to pass on the good genes like inheriting the gene of being a guard dog or protector to the young pups. The pups have no idea where there skills or knowledge comes from because its been hardwired onto em.



    I lost track of what we were talking about now. does anyone else wonder why the f anyone would eat corndogs?
    Actually...there are no odds for any gods, because it isn't possible to calculate the odds of there being a god since there's no base to calculate the odds from. There are actually stats for aliens existing though, because an alien isn't something supernatural, but natural, just like us. So even though the stats for aliens existing isn't considered complete or reliable since it's based upon a limited scope of information given the scope of the universe and what science knows about planets and which ones are in the right zone to potentially support life...that's a far cry more, even with how limited it is, than say the "odds for god", which don't actually exist at all in science, or even in a practical sense. So no, you are not "going against the odds", you aren't even going with the odds...because they don't exist yet. The day someone discovers how to quantify or measure the supernatural...is the day that happens and you can make that claim. Sacrificing yourself for someone else isn't a virtue of belief or faith and doesn't prove that you actually believe or are committed to a faith. You can save a life simply because you value life. Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, etc....can all do this exact same action and still not believe the same things as you do, with the only common belief being that they value life. Not to mention there's always the "no true scotsman" fallacy where by your definition of what makes a "committed believer", might be different from someone else's and there's no one to answer who is right. 

    Actually, just a technical point, but Neanderthal was a different species from us. There's some evidence that some of them may have bred with modern humans, but genetically we were cousins, much like modern Chimpanzees, but of a different species, but I digress. Your point was when we were primitive and "cavemen", we didn't have the complex moral systems we have now. Yet we survived. That means at the least that it was more valuable to primitive humans to cooperate and value life, than to just work best for the individual. It actually makes perfect sense the development of morality from that stance, because our best chance for survival in a hostile world full of predators, diseases, viruses, natural disasters, etc....would have been through cooperation and altruism. Nature favored those who cooperated and cared for one another, because it increased our survivability and yes these favored genes passed on. 

    All that being said, I eat corndogs all the time, I'm from TX and they are famous here, especially Fletcher's Corny Dogs. They are amazing! You should try one! 
  • knuckleheadknucklehead 16 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: You will bow to Jesus Christ, ALL OF YOU!

    John 12:48- He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him. The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last days.

    Philippians 2:10,11- that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

    Most of you have no concept of the sacrifice of Christ and your comments gives glory to your ignorance. Reading your comments is like a first grader trying to teach senior English.
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    @knucklehead
    “Most of you have no concept of the sacrifice of Christ “



    Please briefly explain this concept please.

    GnosticChristian
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4665 Pts   -  
    knucklehead said:

    Most of you have no concept of the sacrifice of Christ and your comments gives glory to your ignorance. Reading your comments is like a first grader trying to teach senior English.
    Perhaps, it seems that way to you. I imagine that someone who has read the Lord of the Rings and taken everything written there overly seriously also would be considering comments suggesting that hobbits do not exist a display of ignorance...
    GnosticChristian
  • knuckleheadknucklehead 16 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty God's plan for the sacrifice of His Son was in place before the world was ever created. Much of the Old Testament is the history of the Nation of Israel through whom Christ would come. His sacrifice was a planned event. Everything happened as planned. His birth, His life, His death, the manner of His death and His resurrection were all prophesied in the Old Testament. The fulfillment of these are recorded in the New Testament Books, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. With regards to His sacrifice, Jesus said "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45) You asked me to be brief. I do not say this as being disrespectful, but having read a number of your post what Paul said fits you very well." The natural man does not receive  the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." (I Corinthians 2:14)
    GnosticChristian
  • BarnardotBarnardot 185 Pts   -   edited January 27
    You can’t say baloney like it was all predicted like that because all that is in the Bible was found hundreds of years after Jesus died so I think you got really sucked in believing that. Big time. Haven’t you seen TV shows where a magician predicts what card is going to turn up? It’s all allusion and that’s what’s happened to you.@knucklehead
    GnosticChristian
  • dallased25dallased25 303 Pts   -  
    @bjinthirty God's plan for the sacrifice of His Son was in place before the world was ever created. Much of the Old Testament is the history of the Nation of Israel through whom Christ would come. His sacrifice was a planned event. Everything happened as planned. His birth, His life, His death, the manner of His death and His resurrection were all prophesied in the Old Testament. The fulfillment of these are recorded in the New Testament Books, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. With regards to His sacrifice, Jesus said "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45) You asked me to be brief. I do not say this as being disrespectful, but having read a number of your post what Paul said fits you very well." The natural man does not receive  the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." (I Corinthians 2:14)
    You didn't actually explain anything about the "concept of Jesus's sacrifice", you just told us what you believe. I know many christians believe that Jesus's birth and life were foretold in the OT, but a simple examination of the scriptures reveal that those couldn't have been referring to Jesus. It's the very reason that Jews rejected him, because he didn't fit the narrative. I could get into the details of that, but I'm not sure you'd even listen. 

    The ultimate point is that even if Jesus "sacrificed himself for our sons" and you think this is somehow a good thing, let me explain why it is not. What Jesus supposedly did is called vicarious redemption....or in the ancient world was a practice known as "scapegoating". In the times of Jesus and before, there was a practice by which villages once a year would take a goat, put it in the middle of the village and leave it there for some time. Villagers were to then go, confess their sins while placing their hand on the goat, the idea being that they were passing their sins on to the goat and relieving themselves of their sins. After a day, once all the villagers had their turn, the goat was then led out to the desert where they would scare it away, driven out into the wastes to die. If it is not moral to do this to a goat, then why is it ok to do it to a man? This idea here is the same, it's putting your actions, misgivings, "sins" and placing the responsibility for those "sins", on to someone else. Imaging going to court and when the judge renders the verdict, they bring out someone else to be whipped for your actions. You wouldn't be a very moral person if you allowed this, especially since you are the responsible part. It is not moral or good to place your "sins" or your wrong doings....on to someone else, even if they ask you to. It is an immoral system and act that believes you can place the responsibility of your own wrong actions and give them to someone else. There's no moral accountability there if you don't take responsibility for your own actions. 

    Lastly, what Jesus did wasn't even a sacrifice. What did he give up exactly? A weekend? He was tortured, died for 3 days and then got to live again and went on to be a god. What is pain and death....to a god. Meanwhile the average police officer or soldier who dies in the line of duty while savings someone else, doesn't get to live again, doesn't get god like powers and leaves their family and friends behind to grieve. If the story of Jesus is true, then he really gave up nothing and his "sacrifice", was nothing but a hollow show. As it stands though, there's actually no evidence of much about Jesus, except that maybe there was indeed a man who was crucified, but no evidence he rose from the dead and sure as heck no evidence of anything divine about his life or himself outside of the bible....that was written decades after his supposed death. 
    GnosticChristian
  • knuckleheadknucklehead 16 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: The sacrifice of Jesus

    After reading your post, you remind me of Job's three friends. "No doubt you are the people and wisdom will die with you." (Job 12:1) Your comment of the prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament that " a simple examination of the scriptures reveal that those couldn't have been referring to Jesus" is laughable. Your attempt to explain "vicarious redemption" is just as bad. None of us put our sins on Him. The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son...It was a gift from God to us. (John 3:16)  Then you made the absurd statement "what Jesus did was not even a sacrifice." You asked "what did he give up?" Paul wrote "who though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God and thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8) And guess what? He died for you as much as for me. If you don't like it, tell Jesus to His face at the judgment because it will be before Him we will all be judged. (2 Corinthians 5:10)
    GnosticChristian
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Jesus was not god, he was the son of god chosen as the messiah. Jesus was influenced by god almost sort of like saying he was possessed. What exactly was the point in god sacrificing a human to bring religious beliefs to bring fear and faith and why in the form of a sacrifice?. Was jesus sacrifice ground zero for all the different civilizations practice for sacrifices?. And is this somewhat proof that christianity is also similar to other sorcery practice like black magic, voodoo, and witchcraft involving the ritual of sacrificing something just as god did with Jesus? Was Jesus sacrifice a ritualized practice of that like the aztecs?
    Jesus was God and still is.  Jesus is the word of God.  God is the mind; Jesus is the word, and the Holy spirit does the work.  All one God. Jesus is God's word made flesh.  He was sacrificed because he was the only soul ever who was free of sin.  We were born in sin and a slave to sin, until Jesus showed us a way to present ourselves before God under the Grace of Jesus.  Jesus died and rose again.  We can now humble our souls (give up or will, wants, ways, walk and worship) And live by the human spirit (be born again) and no longer consciously commit sin.
    GnosticChristian
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    It is definitely difficult to politically determine the obvious answer here. Jesus sounds a little like the birds arent real movement the flipflop wearing cloth made shirts to the heel version of what it is today. I think comparing the before and after jesus showing pretty much says nothing big really changed other than people sent into a saturn like storm of 's and gossip.


    Pretend you are a god and your task is to storm into all humans hearts so that they can recognize who you are as a solidarity being of good nature. Then your plan put into effect was for someone named jesus put em on a cross make everyone lool at him suffer and then resurrect him to show them what ur about.... doesnt sound so god planning to me.
    GnosticChristian
  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 277 Pts   -  
    @knucklehead

    I still don't see what the sacrifice was. According to your holy book, Jesus had a rough time before being crucified.
    He supposedly died on the cross and was buried but magically came back to life after a couple of days. One of the perks of being a supernatural being I suppose. 
    So in reality nothing had changed. It was still god the father the son and the holy ghost, not just god the father and the holy ghost. God sacrificed nothing.
    When you look at all those hundreds of white headstones at a military cemetery, those buried there are not coming back. Their families were told their loved ones had been killed in action. They were not told that if they waited a couple of days their loved one would be back with them good as new. No, their sacrifice was real and final.

    GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    Barnardot said:
    You can’t say baloney like it was all predicted like that because all that is in the Bible was found hundreds of years after Jesus died so I think you got really sucked in believing that. Big time. Haven’t you seen TV shows where a magician predicts what card is going to turn up? It’s all allusion and that’s what’s happened to you.@knucklehead
    If all you are going to do is ignore the bible, then why are you even here?

    The bible conforms what our friend says and that bible is the one creating many of our collective homophobe and misogynous a hole problems.

    Your duty is to point that out and not just ignore what the bible is doing against many innocent people.

    Sure it is all baloney, but harmful baloney.

    Regards
    DL
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    " (Philippians 2:5-8) And guess what? He died for you as much as for me. If you don't like it, tell Jesus to His face at the judgment because it will be before Him we will all be judged. (2 Corinthians 5:10)
    Christians never answer simple questions.

    Let me try anyway.

    What sin got you condemned in the first place?

    I did nothing that earned me such a huge punishment.

    What did you do that was so evil, and would have you abdicate your own responsibility for your own sins?

    Regards
    DL


  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    Jesus was not god, he was the son of god chosen as the messiah. Jesus was influenced by god almost sort of like saying he was possessed. What exactly was the point in god sacrificing a human to bring religious beliefs to bring fear and faith and why in the form of a sacrifice?. Was jesus sacrifice ground zero for all the different civilizations practice for sacrifices?. And is this somewhat proof that christianity is also similar to other sorcery practice like black magic, voodoo, and witchcraft involving the ritual of sacrificing something just as god did with Jesus? Was Jesus sacrifice a ritualized practice of that like the aztecs?
    Jesus was God and still is.  
    Really?

    Show the scriptures that say your eternally living God can die.

    Regards
    DL
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    Many of you in favor of god misunderstand one thing. Jesus was sacrificed for what? oh okay that happened. There boom todays religious world is the result and the world created the faith god wanted. The question is that why did god choose to go with Jesus sacrifice as his decision. I am hands down absolutely sure a lot better alternatives were available. Why go with the one that throws a human under the gutter as sacrifice
    GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    Many of you in favor of god misunderstand one thing. Jesus was sacrificed for what? oh okay that happened. There boom todays religious world is the result and the world created the faith god wanted. The question is that why did god choose to go with Jesus sacrifice as his decision. I am hands down absolutely sure a lot better alternatives were available. Why go with the one that throws a human under the gutter as sacrifice
    Jesus is/was not supposed to be just a human. Hew was/is supposed to be God as well.

    This does not take away from your good point.

    Telling humans to accept substitutional punishment as justice, is just too unjust to think some God would do so.

    Especially given that it goes against what Jesus taught about responsibility for our own sins.

    Here is an old O.P. I give to Christians.

    On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

    It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

    Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

    It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

    To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

    Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.


    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

     Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
    Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

    Regards
    DL

     

     

     
     
  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -   edited January 30
    Many of you in favor of god misunderstand one thing. Jesus was sacrificed for what? oh okay that happened. There boom todays religious world is the result and the world created the faith god wanted. The question is that why did god choose to go with Jesus sacrifice as his decision. I am hands down absolutely sure a lot better alternatives were available. Why go with the one that throws a human under the gutter as sacrifice
    Jesus is/was not supposed to be just a human. Hew was/is supposed to be God as well.

    This does not take away from your good point.

    Telling humans to accept substitutional punishment as justice, is just too unjust to think some God would do so.

    Especially given that it goes against what Jesus taught about responsibility for our own sins.

    Here is an old O.P. I give to Christians.

    On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

    It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

    Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

    It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

    To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

    Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.


    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

     Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
    Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

    Regards
    DL

     

     

     
     


    To accept humans as intelligent species capable of things other species cant requires a few steps back into history to look into the story of god. Let’s admit that by the time Jesus was alive humans had been living off of land with the acknowledgement of a certain ruler or leader. To say that some human couldnt be intelligently adept to figure out that humans follow a leader and what if there was an invisible leader nobody would question and find out it is real. Just like the unfound scriptures and evidence of Jesus sounding a little to dumb for a god to use such a method to sacrifice jesus to win the hearts of men to gain faith points. It sounds more like human planning to me. Or do you think humans are dumb?
    GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 250 Pts   -  
    Many of you in favor of god misunderstand one thing. Jesus was sacrificed for what? oh okay that happened. There boom todays religious world is the result and the world created the faith god wanted. The question is that why did god choose to go with Jesus sacrifice as his decision. I am hands down absolutely sure a lot better alternatives were available. Why go with the one that throws a human under the gutter as sacrifice
    Jesus is/was not supposed to be just a human. Hew was/is supposed to be God as well.

    This does not take away from your good point.

    Telling humans to accept substitutional punishment as justice, is just too unjust to think some God would do so.

    Especially given that it goes against what Jesus taught about responsibility for our own sins.

    Here is an old O.P. I give to Christians.

    On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

    It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

    Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

    It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

    To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

    Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.


    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

     Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
    Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

    Regards
    DL

     

     

     
     


    To accept humans as intelligent species capable of things other species cant requires a few steps back into history to look into the story of god. Let’s admit that by the time Jesus was alive humans had been living off of land with the acknowledgement of a certain ruler or leader. To say that some human couldnt be intelligently adept to figure out that humans follow a leader and what if there was an invisible leader nobody would question and find out it is real. Just like the unfound scriptures and evidence of Jesus sounding a little to dumb for a god to use such a method to sacrifice jesus to win the hearts of men to gain faith points. It sounds more like human planning to me. Or do you think humans are dumb?
    More like, --- obtuse and stuck in mimic, and or, sheeple mode, --- when inappropriate to be stuck.

    We are the most insecure animal on the planet and our need of fellowship basically forces us into tribes and religions.

    A conditioned mind is hard to change and will not usually engage.

    Have you noted how few speak for religions with plain language?

    Most hade behind their books and saying and age old garbage arguments to insure they do not have to discuss moral issues.

    They grew by inquisitions and jihads because their morals were garbage.

    Nothing has changed except the numbers in the non-believers favor.

    It makes it harder for me to talk to some about the good Christianity, Gnostic Christianity.

    is as does is taken.

    Dumb is as dumb does, and religions are morally dumb.

    Many authors and experts who are not on the non-believer side have complained for years of the education level of theists who really believe that serpents and donkeys can talk human, but that they cannot use the "" word, due to offending.

    I do not believe in being politically correct and label honestly.

    Regards
    DL





  • bjinthirtybjinthirty 113 Pts   -  
    If the world already knows that ancient humans were vast more advance for their time than even some of the work done today. People like Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, etc.. and even more ancient people in history who discovered an invention or a way in doing things that it is still used today and even marbles the minds of present mathematicians, scientists, and engineers to how they did it. If ancient people could invent those things back then whats to stop me from saying that making up a story about god was that hard?
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