Why does our Creator mandate the shedding of innocent blood as atonement for sin?

Dee

Our Creator's response to sin is so strong and objectionable that the only payment, atonement, appeasement, He will accept for mediation of that sin is innocent blood, why? 

By any standard you are mentally insane , according to your cults  beliefs you worship a god who created every human that walked the earth and this god knew full well everyone would sin yet desires blood sacrifices to atone for the sin he know each and everyone would commit , you worship a complete and utter psychopathic moron 

RickeyD

@Dee ; Yours is a natural response of one who does not know God or His righteousness or His eschatological plan for Time and Eternity. You have chosen the way of death in self-righteousness, arrogance, aberrant lust...this your doing and your error.

Dee

@RickeyD

Yours is a natural response of one who does not know God

I don’t believe in a god 

or His righteousness

His “righteousness “ included watching men women and children being gassed to death during the Holocaust and not lifting one finger to save them , you’re fine with this as you hate Jews anyway 

or His eschatological plan for Time and Eternity. 

A plan that required the evil of the Holocaust to unfold and untold suffering to happen to appease your psychopathic god 

You have chosen the way of death in self-righteousness, arrogance, aberrant lust...this your doing and your error. 

We all die you senile id-iot you follow a god who approves of abortion , slavery , infanticide , slaughter , torture , lies , deceit , threats , lust , arrogance , self righteousness etc , etc and you think it worthy of worship , Stalin was an angel compared to your god 

RickeyD

@Dee ; You are a voice of Satan within these pages...you are to be pitied for the fate you will incur at Judgment...you have chosen to be intrinsically evil and your father revels with glee as you destroy yourself with words and aberrant lust that defiles your soul. I wish I could help you but you will not listen. May my God have mercy on your soul.

 

Dee

@RickeyD

You  are a voice of Satan within these pages...you are to be pitied for the fate you will incur at Judgment...you have chosen to be intrinsically evil and your father revels with glee as you destroy yourself with words and aberrant lust that defiles your soul. I wish I could help you but you will not listen. May my God have mercy on your soul. 

Ricky you follow a demonic cult look at the date your cult was formed 1517 that’s 1500 hundred years after what’s universally called the one true church Roman Catholicism you and your wife are going to roast my friend …repent you sinner before it’s to late 

RickeyD

@Dee ; Wow...were you assaulted by a Catholic priest...I mean...you seem to be hung up on that religion....did they hurt you in some way...is this why you're so angry?

anarchist100

Speaking of shedding innocent blood, your "Just God" sent millions of innocent people to hell because they where Muslim, while there murderers, Cheney and his pet human, are going to heaven.

RickeyD

@anarchist100 ; Actually, no human being is currently in Hell. Hell will become relevant for humanity subsequent the Judgment of the Condemned. Hell was never created for mankind but for Satan and his demons... mankind chooses Hell by rejecting our Creator's pardon offered by faith in Jesus as Lord.

anarchist100

@RickeyD
Ok alright then, perhaps I was mistaken, but that doesn't at all change the fact that according to your religion, they will still suffer eternally, while their murderers will be eternally happy. All by the will of a person who say is "just".

RickeyD

@anarchist100 ; Hell will not be a place of everlasting torment. At the Judgment of the Condemned (Revelation 20:11-15) you will be adjudicated "guilty" of your sin for having rejected the blood atonement provided by Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin (John 3). You will have received a resurrected body of corruption and placed before the Throne of Jesus Christ and subsequent your Judgment for sin you will be escorted to the Lake of Fire and you will forced to enter therein and you will suffer commensurate with the sin-the evil done in the body while constrained by Time and once you have paid for your own sin you will experience the "second death" and cease all existence, forever. The obstinate atheist will not suffer like a Hitler or Lenin or Mao...each will be punished in accordance with his deeds.

dallased25

Because christianity was heavily influenced by pagan religions that very often sacrificed animals or even people to satisfy the gods and prevent things like natural disasters from happening, or to have a good harvest in Spring. Sacrificing people or things was not original at all to christianity and Jesus being a scape-goat, was also not original at all. Much of christianity is pagan in origin, including things that are celebrated in modern times such as the traditions of christmas. The tree, the lights, the holly, the mistletoe, even the gift giving are all pagan practices that christianity lifted from pagan celebrations such as Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice. Funny that christians look at sacrifices in old pagan religions as "evil", but just "one sacrifice" to satisfy all of sin...is a good thing, even if it is literally the exact same practice. The hypocrisy is delicious. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 The mandating of innocent blood for the forgiveness of sin did not begin with Christianity or Judaism but was first pictured in Genesis 3:21 in Eden. God the Father articulated same in the Covenant of Law in Leviticus 17:11, thousand of years before Messiah entered into the World to provide that blood atonement for your sin. Jesus fulfilled the blood atonement pictured in Eden 4000-years later at Golgotha.

Leviticus 17:11 — The New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 The mandating of innocent blood for the forgiveness of sin did not begin with Christianity or Judaism but was first pictured in Genesis 3:21 in Eden. God the Father articulated same in the Covenant of Law in Leviticus 17:11, thousand of years before Messiah entered into the World to provide that blood atonement for your sin. Jesus fulfilled the blood atonement pictured in Eden 4000-years later at Golgotha.

Leviticus 17:11 — The New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

That's where it started for christianity and Judaism...but history did not start with the bible and there's no proof that Adam and Eve ever existed. We have the history going back way before christianity or even Judaism of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Persians, ancient Egyptians, etc....who all practice these pagan practices long before your "book of myth" was written. So sorry, real history disagrees with you and until you prove that A&E even existed, or that there's any reason at all to consider the story as anything other than myth....anything you say about it isn't worth even talking about. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; Well, there is your eternal problem...you call God a and deny His words. This is why you will not find life lest you repent.

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; Well, there is your eternal problem...you call God a and deny His words. This is why you will not find life lest you repent.

I can't call "god" anything since by my count none exists, in the same way I can't call Gandalf a fake magician. I call the bible for what it is, clearly man-made, clearly imperfect, clearly not original and clearly uninspired by anything but pagan influences and competing mythologies. Until you and your ilk prove that these words are "gods words", I haver zero reason to listen to you and again, threats won't do it. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; You call God a by denying Him and not pursuing Him. What you "think" is irrelevant....what you don't know about God is YOUR culpability. I'm not threatening you...I'm telling you what the Holy Spirit has said...if you feel threatened, look inwardly.

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; You call God a by denying Him and not pursuing Him. What you "think" is irrelevant....what you don't know about God is YOUR culpability. I'm not threatening you...I'm telling you what the Holy Spirit has said...if you feel threatened, look inwardly.

Wrong again, I can't deny something that hasn't been proven to exist. It would like me denying Vishnu or Allah. I guess by your logic, you deny all the other gods and admit they exist right? Or do believe they don't exist? If you don't believe the other gods exist, you aren't "Denying them", you simply don't believe they exist at all. In which case, you are an atheist with regards to all the other gods, just not yours. So you are actually an atheist in regards to Allah or Vishnu.

As far as the rest...when you say, "If you don't believe, something bad will happen to you"...that's a threat. Put it this way, if the Mafia wants to put a hit on you, the rep for the mob boss would say, "Hey, you'd better pay our boss for protection, or something bad will happen to you." Then of course, he sends his henchmen to do his dirty work. So while you may not be the one to get your hands dirty, you are essentially threatening me on behalf of your mob boss that if I don't believe in him, he'll torture me. Sorry, threats won't work and I don't "feel threatened", because I can't be afraid of a god and place that doesn't exist, but just because I'm not afraid, that doesn't mean that what you said still isn't a threat. It'd be the same if a Muslim threatened you with eternal torture if you don't believe in Allah. It's still a threat, even if you don't believe in Allah or the Muslim hell. 

SkepticalOne

@RickeyD

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; All history relevant to Time begins with Genesis 1:1.

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne If we did not sin, Jesus' suffering and death for you would not have been necessary as Hell for mankind not have been mandated but only for Satan and the angels.

SkepticalOne

@RickeyD

If we did not sin, Jesus' suffering and death for you would not have been necessary as Hell for mankind not have been mandated but only for Satan and the angels.

If a creation is imperfect, isn't that the fault of the creator? It makes no sense to require the creation to atone for a creator's ineptitude. 

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; The imperfection that has manifested in the creation is not the fault of the Creator but of the created who have exercised free will with narcissism and covetousness as the root of their volition. Our Creator remains sinless...the creation defiles itself by "choice." It is the "perfect" Creator who has interceded and provided a path to forgiveness by faith in the perfect One, Jesus Christ.

SkepticalOne

@RickeyD

Free will would also be a creation of the creator though. 

This brings up another question. Basically free will and sin go hand in hand, right? It makes me wonder what your conception of heaven is. If there is no sin in heaven, then there is no free will...

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; Free will remains extant in the Eternal Kingdom as witnessed and verified by Satan's volition to covet the sovereignty of our God as is the volitional decision of one-third of the entire angelic creation who followed Satan's leadership. Free will is absolutely essential for authentic love and relationship to exist with purity; therefore, the Heavenly Hosts will be endowed with free will and to a large part, free will is the reasoning for our creation in Time as our Father has used the previous 6000-years of Satan's horror to demonstrate to the faithful angelic creation the ramifications of rebellion and rejection of God's way...the way of peace through obedience to God's will and the previous 6000-years will also serve as experiential relevance for human kind that are redeemed by faith in Jesus as they too will possess volition but they will understand that God's way is the best way...6000-years of horror will be contrasted with the soon to come 1000-years of pervasive peace during the Millennial Kingdom where Satan is bound and not allowed access to human kind and this stark differentiation will leave no doubt as to the causation of suffering and evil and horror for both the angelic and human creation.

 

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; All history relevant to Time begins with Genesis 1:1.

So "real" history begins with the talking snake story...right.....

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; Simply because the Holy Spirit has used the analogy of a "serpent" and its attributes to describe Satan in Eden...this is not what Eve observed; in fact, the physiology of the "serpent" we know and see was not manifest until Genesis 3:14-15 subsequent the fall of man. Through the prophet Ezekiel, the Holy Spirit gives us a picture of what Eve observed in Eden....

SkepticalOne

@RickeyD

That's a lot of words to say you believe in a heaven with sin. How does one receive salvation for thir 'spiritual' sins...or is it 1 strike and straight to he'll?

You don't dispute free will is a creation. That brings us back to where we started: If a creation is imperfect, isn't that the fault of the creator?

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; There is no sin in the Kingdom...this is why our Universe and this Earth were created as temporary repositories for Satan's rebellion as God the Father is dealing with the rebellious cherub angel here, partially constrained by Time and physics, apart from the Kingdom where nothing impure is permitted to exist. That is why this body of decaying flesh must die away before the redeemed spirit of the one who has trusted in Jesus will enter the Kingdom (2 Corinthians 5:8).

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; You receive forgiveness for sin by trusting in the One who died to pay your sin-debt owed the Father for you, Jesus Christ.

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; Simply because the Holy Spirit has used the analogy of a "serpent" and its attributes to describe Satan in Eden...this is not what Eve observed; in fact, the physiology of the "serpent" we know and see was not manifest until Genesis 3:14-15 subsequent the fall of man. Through the prophet Ezekiel, the Holy Spirit gives us a picture of what Eve observed in Eden....

I don't care and as usual...you missed the point. 

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@SkepticalOne ; There is no sin in the Kingdom...this is why our Universe and this Earth were created as temporary repositories for Satan's rebellion as God the Father is dealing with the rebellious cherub angel here, partially constrained by Time and physics, apart from the Kingdom where nothing impure is permitted to exist. That is why this body of decaying flesh must die away before the redeemed spirit of the one who has trusted in Jesus will enter the Kingdom (2 Corinthians 5:8).

"There is no sin in the Kingdom.." I've heard this before and brings up an interesting point. Would you agree that sin is a by-product of free will? In other words, so long as people have free will, there will be people who choose to sin. Therefore, it is a logical conclusion that free will must necessarily not exist in the kingdom since there "is no sin in the kingdom". So when you get to heaven, you become a mindless automaton devoid of free will or choice anymore, with only the ability to worship god for the rest of eternity. Sounds like a pure hell to me. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; Sin is a byproduct of free will...if one has no ability to choose to violate God's moral law or they lack the ability to know God's will...there is no sin for where there is no law or consciousness of same, there is no sin.

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; No, you don't become robotic in the Kingdom but you are NOT beleaguered by a sin-nature because you're in a resurrected body of glory; you're free from the body of sinful flesh encumbered with a genome passed through our father, Adam. The redeemed in Jesus will not have a body of corruption but one likened to our Lord in perfection...much like Adam had before he sinned and exactly like the one modeled by Jesus subsequent His resurrection. The redeemed have new-nature (2 Corinthians 5:17).

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; No, you don't become robotic in the Kingdom but you are NOT beleaguered by a sin-nature because you're in a resurrected body of glory; you're free from the body of sinful flesh encumbered with a genome passed through our father, Adam. The redeemed in Jesus will not have a body of corruption but one likened to our Lord in perfection...much like Adam had before he sinned and exactly like the one modeled by Jesus subsequent His resurrection. The redeemed have new-nature (2 Corinthians 5:17).

So you do not deny this, but try to play word games to get around it. Sin is a by-product of free will. If sin does not exist in heaven, then free will cannot exist. It's simple logic. So if you don't have free will, then you are no longer you and everything that defined you in life, becomes meaningless. Thank you for proving that the christian afterlife makes life meaningless. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; Incorrect....flesh and blood don't exist in Heaven but they're a reality here...Adam was created without sin...and paradise lost will be paradise restored in the New Jerusalem...sinless perfection and free will. There will be no sin in the Kingdom because the unrighteous will not inherit it.

dallased25

@RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; Incorrect....flesh and blood don't exist in Heaven but they're a reality here...Adam was created without sin...and paradise lost will be paradise restored in the New Jerusalem...sinless perfection and free will. There will be no sin in the Kingdom because the unrighteous will not inherit it.

It doesn't matter and this is not a rebuttal to the logic. You cannot have free will, without the option to sin. No option to sin = no free will. It means that when we enter heaven, our minds are lobotomized and we aren't who we were in life. By your own admission in other posts, those that are righteous, are those who choose not to sin. It's the choice that makes everything because of free will. So, no choice, no free will and you can no longer "be righteous", because you aren't given a choice. I know you won't comprehend or understand this logic, because you are too narcissistic. 

John_C_87

 (Revelation 21:27). This unfathomable rebellion is of such magnitude that it involves one-third of the Heavenly hosts and due to its potential to cause great harm, the Father commissioned the Son, Jesus Christ
(Revelation XXI: IIIXXX)
Even now (GOD: 89) is hiden by obscure ideas of understandings the use of math and time as fact, and not in the world of man.Humanity holds more then one creator and life is createrd in manyways not one.

RickeyD

@John_C_87 ; Humanity has but One Creator, Elohim, and life constrained by time and physics is created in His spiritual

image (Genesis 1:26-28).

 

 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; I never said the "option to sin" would be unavailable in the Kingdom; obviously, Satan "chose" to rebel against God through covetousness. What I am saying is that our entire creation narrative, the horror of 6000-years of Satan running amuck and the New-Nature given the redeemed in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17) will act as a bulwark against rebellion, sin, in the Kingdom where free will remains extant and had YOU actually read what I wrote, you would know this.

dallased25

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; I never said the "option to sin" would be unavailable in the Kingdom; obviously, Satan "chose" to rebel against God through covetousness. What I am saying is that our entire creation narrative, the horror of 6000-years of Satan running amuck and the New-Nature given the redeemed in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17) will act as a bulwark against rebellion, sin, in the Kingdom where free will remains extant and had YOU actually read what I wrote, you would know this.

I love that you believe that what you just wrote changes anything or makes any sense at all. If free will is an option, then keeping the kingdom free of sin is an impossibility unless god knows in advance who will rebel eventually in heaven and kicks them out or doesn't allow them in. If you knew anything about "free will" it's that no one will ever measure up and remain sin free forever, meaning at some point everyone gets kicked out of the pool....or free will must be removed. What Jesus did just allowed people to get into heaven if they measure up, it doesn't say it will keep them in, but does say that there will be no sin in the new kingdom since god cannot tolerate sin in his presence. The thing you don't get about free will is that it is imperfect, as are humans. So unless something fundamentally changes about the person when they get to heaven, they will remain human and imperfect and always and forever, incapable of completely measuring up and hell will receive fresh souls straight from heaven from those that fell like Lucifer did....unless free will is erased. Do you deny this? 

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; Nothing is impossible with God and the experiential relevance provided by the evil that has manifest over the previous 6000-years will act as a sufficient bulwark to constrain evil in the Kingdom as the Holy Spirit working through the New Nature will ensure it.

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; If you seek rebuttal, use the "reply" option so I know you've responded directly to me as opposed to the whole group; that is, unless you're a coward seeking to conceal your atheistic nonsense?

RickeyD

@dallased25 ; If you seek rebuttal, use the "reply" option so I know you've responded directly to me as opposed to the whole group; that is, unless you're fearful seeking to conceal your atheistic nonsense?

dallased25

@RickeyD

RickeyD said:

@dallased25 ; Nothing is impossible with God and the experiential relevance provided by the evil that has manifest over the previous 6000-years will act as a sufficient bulwark to constrain evil in the Kingdom as the Holy Spirit working through the New Nature will ensure it.

Yet another non-answer. I'll chalk it up to cowardice at this point. 

RickeyD

@dallased25 Nothing is impossible with my Lord that can be done...free will is extant in the Kingdom as it is here...you can chalk anything you desire but unless you repent and trust in Jesus as your Lord, you will NOT enter the Kingdom of God.