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If faith in Jesus is essential for eternal life, what will happen to those born before Messiah?

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Anyone born from Adam forward up to Messiah's 1st-Advent found righteousness (a right standing) with the Father by "faith" (see Hebrews 11). A problem existed for the Old Testament saints as their sin had not received the acceptable blood atonement as first pictured in Genesis 3:21; therefore, they awaited Messiah's atoning sacrifice in Sheol as nothing impure is permitted to enter the Kingdom (Revelation 21:27).

The Holy Spirit tells us that while the body of Jesus laid in the tomb, Jesus entered Sheol (Hades in the Greek) and preached liberty to the captives there and escorted them into the Kingdom (Ephesians 4:7-10) and from Messiah's blood atonement forward, those who trust in Jesus no longer enter Sheol or Hades but are translated instantaneously into the presence of our Lord awaiting the resurrection of the righteous and service in the New Jerusalem (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 3:21).




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  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 7
    first, you are assuming that god is real; regardless of your belief, that assumption may be incorrect.  however; and correct me if i am wrong; does not the bible say that only a certain amount of souls will be saved/ it seems to me that the amount that the bible states that will be saved is very small compared with humanity. those who never heard of jesus will not be saved.  many who believe in jesus will not me saved.  This is according to your own scripture.   yes i am sur3e that you can post verses that says different but various biblical passages disagreeing  with each other is hardly conducive to the truth.  would  you care to tell me what the bible says about the amount of people who will be saved?  it breaks it down tribe by tribe if i am not mistaken.  asa well sir; please show me where it states jesus came to save ALL mankind @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ;  God's reality is not an assumption for me, Maxx...His Spirit lives within me and His reality is beyond my ability to deny...He is the LOVE of my life. Our Creator desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth but yes, Jesus said that only a relative "few" would find the path to life in Him. You're thinking of the Scriptures directed to the 12-Tribles of Israel, 12,000 from each Tribe who will be Jewish witnesses during the Tribulation era soon to come where a "remnant" of Israel's children will find faith in Messiah and enter into the Millennial Kingdom...this is a separate eschatological event from the totality of mankind, specifically the Gentile, that will be saved. Excellent questions, thanks for asking.

  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
    i dont know.  this is what i am getting.  Who Goes to Heaven? | Bible Questions (jw.org)  as well and for instance, revelation clearly states three things.  there will be those who p[erish.  there will be those who enter heaven and then there are the nations and people that those who enter heaven will govern over. those outside the gate will not be the ones who perish nor are they the ones who will enter heaven and be saved and have everlasting life   @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; It's important that you differentiate between those Scriptures referencing the Millennial Kingdom from those referencing the New Jerusalem, the Eternal Kingdom. Our Heavenly Father has ordained but ONE-WAY to find reconciliation with Him through the forgiveness of sin; that is, to believe with a sincere heart in the One He has sent into the World to provide blood atonement for your sin; that is, Jesus Christ our Lord (John 6:29). It is ONLY by repenting of your sin (turning away from a life of rebellion toward God's will for your life) and sincerely believing-trusting in Jesus Christ as your Lord, believing that Jesus died for you to pay your sin-debt owed the Father...a debt you could NEVER pay yourself...this is the KEY to eternal life through the forgiveness of sin.

    I strongly urge you to sit quietly, humble yourself and ask our Heavenly Father to send His Spirit to open the Scriptures and touch your heart with His Truth; find you a readable version of the English translation of the Scriptures and carefully read every word of the Gospel of John in the New Testament. Please do not perish without at least making an attempt to seek your Creator and His will for your life?

     
  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -  
    again  i am also going by what the bible states. i  am sure you have read revelation.  it clearly states that AFTER those who are cast into the lake of fire and AFTER  new  jerusalem  comes down to earth, that there are still those outside of the gates; including thieves, and those of low morals.  surely i do not have to show you the verses.  these people outside of the gate are there AFTER all is said and done; AFTER  new jerusalem comes to earth..@RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; Your mixing the Millennial and New Jerusalem...there will be nothing impure in the New Jerusalem but in the Millennial Kingdom the Nation's will exist outside and those Nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor the King and His sovereignty, Jesus Christ. In the New Jerusalem, outside the gates, long distances outside the gates are those who exist in darkness and suffering and shame, the unredeemed...those who have rejected Messiah Jesus as Mediator for their sin...they will never enter the Kingdom yet they will be a constant reminder of why disobedience to God's will culminates in failure and the necessity for faithfulness and the beauty of justice and honor in the Kingdom where life and relationship with intimacy can flourish apart from sin and suffering....where there will be no tears or sorrow or pain...paradise lost will be paradise restored.


  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
    aside of those verses you just posted having nothing to do with the end times, for one can clearly see they are refering to something else at hand iof you read the full chapter;jesus returns but once, therfore the millemual kindom goes hand-in-hand with new jerusalem.  however let me pause and read the areas of revelation again.     ok what you are talking about is the first resurrection, where those who will reign with christ for 1000 years.  i am not confusing that with the many who will not be saved and those who will perish.  there will be plenty still alive who are not saved after new jerusalem comes to earth @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -   edited May 8
    @maxx ; (PLEASE use the "reply" option)  The verses I shared with you concern the end-times and the Kingdom. The Millennial Kingdom refers to that Kingdom governed by Jesus Christ immediately subsequent the Tribulation Era soon to come upon the Earth...the Millennial Kingdom will be present on this Earth in present day Jerusalem while the New Jerusalem will be present on a New Earth within a New Heaven...this present Earth will be burned, consumed by fire, purified, remolded and made a repository for the New Jerusalem, God's Eternal Kingdom where He will dwell with His people in resurrected bodies, forever.

    Those who are outside the Gates of the New Jerusalem are the Condemned who have been adjudicated in the Great White Throne Judgment that will manifest subsequent the Millennial Reign of Messiah (Revelation 20:11-15). They will be relegated to a resurrected body of corruption to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
       
  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
    very reaching rick  very.  ALL  those who turn their backs on jesus will be subject to the second death. not made into new bodies.rev 21-8  i fail to see anywhere that they get another chance by getting new bodies.   as well after all is finished, in rev 22, there are those outside the gates of the city. see verse 15  @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx Please use the reply option so your rebuttal comes to me and not as a general comment? There will be a resurrection of the righteous (Philippians 3:21; John 5:28-29) and a resurrection of the condemned (John 5:28-29).

    Those who die in body having rejected the mediation of their sin by faith in Jesus as Lord are relegated to Hades-Torments in spiritual form awaiting the Judgment of the Condemned where they will receive a resurrected body of corruption and stand before Jesus Christ for adjudication (Revelation 20:11-15).

    Jesus said,

    Two Resurrections

    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, [i]a time is coming and [j]even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [k]the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this; for [l]a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment. John 5






  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -  
    i do use the reply; the4 site has a glitch; many times i do not see notifications at all and have to search.  now, i am not sure what bible or version you have or even how you can correlate Philippians with the great white throw judgement , but in that judgement, no where does it state, that those who are cast into the lake of fire will get new bodies.  therfore they can not be the same  as those outside the gates because not only were they condemned to the lake of fire, new jerusalem has not been brought down as of yet. @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -   edited May 8
    @maxx Philippians 3:21 is NOT the Judgement of the Condemned but the resurrection of the righteous in Jesus. Jesus told you that the condemned would be resurrected in corruption (John 5:28-29) and the Holy Spirit tells you in Revelation 20:12 that they condemned "stand" before the throne. How is there "weeping and gnashing of teeth" but through a body with the ability to weep and teeth with the ability to gnash and legs with the ability to stand?

    "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books." Revelation 20:12 (NASB)





  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
    all these verses are self contradicting; yet regardless, out side of new jerusalem are nations of people, for the fig leave is to heal these nations and these people are clearly not the ones who were cast into the lake of fire.  there will be those who will not make it into new jerusalem and be saved, yet will not have perished with the second death. @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; They are suffering in the outer darkness...that is what the Scripture says...these are not contradictory nor will the same punishment be meted out for every individual. A rebellious Atheist that lives in wilful ignorance will not suffer to the same degree as a Hitler or a Stalin...God's justice will be fair.

    3 But do you suppose this, [d]you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and [e]restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But [f]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [g]for every soul of mankind who does evil, [h]for the Jew first and also [i]for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.  Romans 2 (NASB)

  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -  
    look what i am saying is what the bible  clearly states. the second death, is where those who are not saved will be destroyed. yet later on we see after new jerusalem comes down there are nations and people outside of the gates, who will not be saved and did not perish.  am i correct? @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; The first death is the body in sin, the second death is the spirit in sin and separation from the Father for eternity. Personally, I interpret the "second death" as all cessation of life in the lake of fire though many theologians disagree with me and suggest that the soul does not die and will be in torment forever...Revelation does speak of those in outer darkness outside the City of God and Jesus did say this would manifest...how all of this will be reconciled by our Lord I do not know...whether some, due to their most defiled nature, will be destroyed by fire while others will be allowed to live but in separation from God...I don't know...what I do know is that I don't want to be in that group irrespective of outcome....I have believed and trusted in Jesus Christ as my Lord for the mediation of my sin.  


  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
     perhaps so; yet the question i am asking, is after the second death, in where all who have perished, after that, we still find people of nations still alive; so where did they come from ? in other words; if all those people who did not believe in jesus, all thos sinners perished in the second death, then why are there still sinners outside the gates after and i repeat after the second death?  @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; As I said, how my Lord will reconcile this, I don't know...these could be those to whom a degree of compassion is shown...they live but separated from our Lord, forever...others, those who have done unconscionable evil...they perish for eternity in the lake of fire....as I mentioned...neither scenario is one I desire to experience when Jesus has paved the path for my forgiveness.


  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -  
    well thanks for an honest answer.  nice debating with you  @RickeyD
  • maxxmaxx 858 Pts   -   edited May 8
    well thanks for an honest answer.   been a nice debate . i may not agree with you; yet that does not mean we can not have a logical debate, rather than the ridicule many resort to when they do not agree.   @RickeyD
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @maxx ; I appreciate you Maxx and your politeness. Thank you!
  • @RickeyD
    So in simple honest words you are saying Jesus sends people to hell..or gives them eternal life of suffering while at the same time taking GOD in vian? 
  • RickeyDRickeyD 770 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87 ; Jesus is Elohim, Jesus is God...He is your Creator, Messiah, Judge...and Hell was never created for human kind but for Satan and the rebellious angels; mankind will enter Hell subsequent Judgment for rejecting the suffering and death of Jesus as atonement for our sin. Mankind chooses Hell and God honors the "choice."

    Elohim has given His all for you that you might seek Him and enter into covenant relationship with Him by faith in the Son, Jesus Christ and LIVE...but you have chosen to exist in spiritual ignorance and defiance of what our Creator has done for us in the midst of a horrific war that engulfs us daily...you are comfortably numb and dying daily in your sin and you simply don't care. 


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