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American was founded on Judeo-Christian values?

Debate Information

What do people mean when they say this? Are they suggesting the US government is built on exclusively Christian principles? If so, which ones? 

I would think they mean core components of Christianity like, say, the commandments, vicarious redemption, original sin, etc.

The 1st commandment is 'Thou shall have no other gods before me' which is the antithesis of American religious freedom. Vicarious redemption is the opposite of personal responsibility which is required for our legal system to function. Original sin is the opposite of a presumption of innocence built into our system of justice.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Christianity. People are entitled to their religious beliefs. It's just that Christianity as the inspiration for American government is an absurd suggestion because the two are so far apart ideologically. Christian nationalism (the US is founded on Christian principles) is quite literally un-American.
Plaffelvohfen
A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.



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  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited May 13
    @SkepticalOne ;  America was founded by Christians for Christians not atheists.

    Sovereign authority of God, not sovereignty of the state, or sovereignty of manMayflower Compact, Declaration, Constitution, currency, oaths, mention of God in all 50 state constitutions, Pledge of AllegianceEx. 18:16, 20:3, Dt. 10:20, 2 Chron. 7:14, Ps. 83:18, 91:2, Isa. 9:6-7, Dan. 4:32, Jn. 19:11, Acts 5:29, Rom. 13:1, Col 1:15-20, 1 Tim. 6:15
    Existence of objective moral values, Fixed standards, Absolute truth, Sanctity of life Declaration ("unalienable" rights—life, etc., "self-evident" truths) Ex. 20:1-17, Dt. 30:19, Ps. 119:142-152Pr. 14:34, Isa. 5:20-21, Jn. 10:10, Rom. 2:15Heb. 13:8 
    Rule of law rather than authority of man Declaration, Constitution Ex. 18:24-27, Dt. 17:20, Isa. 8:19-20, Mat. 5:17-18 
    All men are sinners Constitutional checks and balances Gen 8:21, Jer. 17:9, Mk. 7:20-23, Rom. 3:23, 1 Jn. 1:8 
    All men created equal Declaration Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Peter 2:17
    Judicial, legislative, and executive branches Constitution Isa. 33:22 (See Madison)
    Religious freedom First Amendment 1 Timothy2:1-2
    Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state First Amendment Dt. 17:18-20, 1 Kgs. 3:28, Ezra 7:24, Neh. 8:2, 1 Sam. 7:15-10:27, 15:10-31, 2 Sam. 12:1-18, Mat. 14:3-4Lk. 3:7-14, 11:52, Acts 4:26-29 

    Republican form of government and warnings against kings but in favor of Godly rulers

     Constitution

    Ex. 18:21, Dt. 1:13, Jud. 8:22-23, 1 Samuel 8, Pr. 11:14, 24:6  
    Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments Mat. 18:15-18Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8 
    Establish justice Declaration Ex. 23:1-9, Lev. 19:15, Dt. 1:17, 16:19-20, 24:17-19, 1 Sam. 8:3, 2 Sam. 8:151 Kings 3:28, 10:9, Mic. 6:8, Rom. 13:4 
    Fair trial with witnesses Sixth Amendment Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16 
    Private property rights Fifth Amendment Ex. 20:15-17
    Biblical liberty, Free enterprise Declaration Lev. 25:10, Jn. 8:362 Cor. 3:17, Gal. 5:1, James 1:25, 1 Peter 2:16 
    Creation not evolution Declaration Gen. 1:1
    Biblical capitalism not Darwinian capitalism (service and fair play over strict survival of the fittest) Anti-trust laws Ex. 20:17, Mat. 20:26, 25:14-30, 2 Thes. 3:6-15, 1 Pet. 2:16 
    Importance of the traditional family State sodomy laws, few reasons for divorce Ex. 20:12-14, Mat. 19:1-12, Mk. 10:2-12, Rom. 1:18-2:16, 1 Cor. 7:1-40
    Religious education encouraged Northwest Ordinance Dt. 6:4-7, Pr. 22:6, Mat. 18:6, Eph. 6:4
    Servanthood not political power Concept of public servant Ex. 18:21, Rom. 13:4, Php. 2:7
    Sabbath day holy "Blue laws" Ex. 20:8
    RestitutionRestitution lawsLev. 6:1-5, Num. 5:5-7, Mat. 5:23-26



    PlaffelvohfenHappy_Killbot
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4792 Pts   -   edited May 13
    It seems to me that America has become what it has not because of, but in spite of Christianity and Judaism - much like China has become an economically successful country not because of, but in spite of communism. The moment hardcore communism in China gave way to a little bit of sanity, the economy took off, and all the attempts of the communists to revert back to Mao's system have failed in the face of the appeal of the new system to the public. Similarly, the moment hardcore Christian theocraticism in Europe gave way to a little bit of sanity, a wave of revolutions shoot the continent and the related territories overseas, and those regions were never the same.

    People like Jordan Peterson like saying that one cannot discard the predominantly Judeo-Christian history of the West, as the West allegedly has arrived at its current point through that history - but that is like saying that one cannot discard the Nazi period in Germany, as Germany has arrived at its current point through that period. Only a madman would claim that Germany was founded on the National-Socialist values - yet it is qualitatively the same kind of argument as the one in question.

    Many countries with little to no history of Christianity or Judaism - Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore - adopted most of the elements of the American system and are thriving as a consequence, despite lacking a similar history. This suggests that the values the American system is based on are inherently (partially) reasonable, independently from the history of arriving at them. And if that is the case, then the fact that the West has arrived at them through Judaism and Christianity is simply a product of chance. In an alternative Universe, with slightly tweaked initial conditions, a system similar to the US could easily first emerge, say, in India, and then people with just as much zeal would claim that United States of India was founded on the Hinduist values.

    It is possible that the Christian and Judaist values are better shortcuts to the Enlightenment than the values promoted by most other religions and ideologies that have been created by humans, but they by no means are a prerequisite to Enlightenment. In fact, many of their values promoting dogmatic thinking are contradictory to Enlightenment, and it is only when those values were relaxed and, ultimately, discarded that the Enlightenment could happen.
    SkepticalOne
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ; Without Jesus as King and His teachings as foundational to America's Constitutional Republic, the United States would not have survived as long as it has; unfortunately, our youth were inundated in public schools by Progressives like Dewey who abhorred individualism and free thinking and demanded conformity to the State of which the bourgeoisie elitists found profitable through control and subservience of the lower and middle class proletariat; therefore, 60-years of methodical brainwashing in Darwin, Marx, Lenin, Sanger, Dewey, has resulted in a communist Millennial-Gen Z and Gen X populous, much like those who contribute to this atheistic forum, that are Marxists, morally perverse, sissified and confused while our present senile Administration and perverse staff lead America into Hell in hopelessness.



    Plaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4792 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    "Jesus" is not mentioned a single time in any of the official documents in the US. As for "kings", the US was founded in opposition to monarchy, with king George being the primary antagonist in the war. Your claim that the US would not survive as long as it did without a king genuinely made me chuckle. :D
    Plaffelvohfenanarchist100
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ; Jesus is the focus of attention in all our Founder's did and said. You chuckle because Satan is your father and you don't know any better. You're clueless, brainwashed, and headed to Perdition...



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4792 Pts   -  
    @RickeyD

    My father's name is not Satan. You are confusing me with someone else. As for being brainwashed, the most brainwashed people are always the one accusing others of brainwashing the most. Folks back in my home country (Russia) kept accusing me of being brainwashed by American propagandists, even as they swallowed every word their news channels threw at them... You are not doing anything new, you are just making me a bit sad: I expect this kind of thing from victims of the 74 years of the communist oppression, but you have grown up in the free world and are to be held up to a higher standard.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ; Your father's name is Satan and you will suffer a similar fate as he in Hell lest you repent and believe in Jesus as your Lord who died for you.


  • @RickeyD

    You neglected to address arguments in the OP. One day I hope to see something beside low effort copypasta plagiarism from you. Here is the entirety of your post: http://www.humzoo.com/PaulNowlin/blog/67/

    Sovereign authority of God, not sovereignty of the state, or sovereignty of man

    The first three words of our founding document (the Constitution) are "We the people".  The US government derives its power from the governed - god(s) have no role.

    Existence of objective moral values, Fixed standards, Absolute truth, Sanctity of life - Declaration ("unalienable" rights—life, etc., "self-evident" truths)

    The Declaration of Independence does not establish the US form of government. Besides that, your interpretation of the DOI is quite fantastical. 

    Rule of law rather than authority of man

    Again, the US government derives it power from the people. (Ie. Man)

    All men created equal

    This is not a Biblical principle. The OT has much to say about a chosen people. Not equality. Slavery is codified in the OT. Not equality. OT laws favor men over women. Not equality.

    Judicial, legislative, and executive branches

    In Federalist No 78, Hamilton attributes separation of powers to Montesquieu.

    Religious freedom

    As established in the OP, religious freedom is not a Biblical principle. The 1st commandment makes this quite clear. However, verses such as Deuteronomy 13:6-9 make it undeniable:

    "And when your brother or son or daughter, or even your dear wife or lifelong friend, comes to you in secret and whispers, “Let’s go and worship some other gods” (gods that you know nothing about, neither you nor your ancestors, the gods of the peoples around you near and far, from one end of the Earth to the other), don’t go along with him; shut your ears. Don’t feel sorry for him and don’t make excuses for him. Kill him."

    Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state

    The 1st amendment has 2 clauses regarding religious freedom. The establishment clause prevents government established religion. The free exercise clause prevents government from interfering in the free exercise of religion. So, you're right that the church is protected from government. Where you went wrong is that the government is also protected from religion. Ie. Religion pushed with the power of government runs contrary to the establishment clause.

    Republican form of government and warnings against kings but in favor of Godly rulers
    Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance

    Just a few lines above, you suggested the power of government comes from God. In a Republic the people hold the power. You're contradicting yourself. Also, the Bible is rife with references to monarchy: "the kingdom of God", "the King of Kings", "kingship belongs to the lord", etc. Given this and the strong push for obedience to god thoughout the Bible, it is quite a logical leap to suggest a Republic is the go-to Biblically preferred form of government.

    Establish justice

    The concept of justice predates Christianity. It is nonsensical to suggest Christianity has a monopoly on it.

    Fair trial with witnesses

    Per the Bible, every person is guilty of original sin by default. Our legal system operates on the presumption of innocence. 

    Private property rights

    The Bible isn't the first time we realized theft is bad...

    Biblical liberty

    Jubilee, eh? Someone could only get your Biblical freedom if they were an Israelite and had been an endentured servant for ~7years. Jubilee did not apply to slaves - they could be owned indefinitely and even passed down as inheritance. Im not sure what the message is here...Biblical freedom is selective and can only occur after paying off your debt by selling yourself to others? Strange.

    Creation not evolution

    The 'Creator' in the DOI is nature, not gods...and evolution wouldn't be a thing for another ~75 years.

    Darwinian capitalism (service and fair play over strict survival of the fittest)

    Capitalism is capitalism, and it existed long before Christianity. Ancient Athen and Rome were capitalistic.

    Restitution

    Restitution predates Christianity. The code of Hammurabi, for instance.

    Importance of the traditional family

    Biblical conceptions of family are quite scandalous compared to "traditional family". Man with woman, man with daughters, man with wife and concubines, son with mother, man with other man's wife, etc. 

    Religious education encouraged

    Uhhh, no, at least not by our founding document. Have there been poor understandings of religious freedom? Yes.

    Sabbath day holy - blue laws

    ...speaking of breaches in the wall of separation of state and religion.


    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • RickeyD said:
    @MayCaesar ; Your father's name is Satan [...]
    @MayCaesar ;

    Wait, doesnt Ricky believe God is our father? I'm pretty sure 2 dads doesn't fit into that whole 'traditional family' we hear so much about!
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited May 14
    @SkepticalOne ; @MayCaesar Our entire Nation was founded upon Christian values that were successful in framing a Nation of people who worked hard, honored our Lord by faith and obedience, loved their neighbor as them self, sought honor in the Biblical family unit and took pride in the Nation that our Creator had blessed. God is our Father, God is the Son and the Spirit and these three are One and they possess pure sovereignty over our lives and our future via our posterity but they will NOT honor you, your atheism, your arrogance in perversion and hate for all things good and sustainable. Your perverse ideology is the resultant of progressive compromise with the devil. Every atheist in this forum is a servant of Satan...you espouse evil and that which is eternally destructive to mind, body, soul...you are evil. America requires another civil war to once again restructure the demons in the Democrat Party and suppress their propensity for evil.

    There was NEVER a separation of Church and State in the manner envisioned by the demonic atheist. Our Founders simply did not desire any particular Christian denomination possessing a majority in the Executive, Legislative, Judicial, branches of the Federal Government...our Founder's were especially concerned about the abuses of the Church of England and Catholicism that are not Christian at root and our Founder's did NOT want a repeat of the British theocracy running amuck with a subservient King as a puppet.


  • @RickeyD

    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-by-Repetition

    You're not providing any evidence, buddy. You're simply stating and restating your opinions. You have not yet addressed any challenges provided against your opinions.
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -   edited May 15
    @SkepticalOne ; We're not "buddies"....we're enemies...and all one must do is read our founding documents to see that Jesus is King and America is completely dependent upon Him for sustainability.

    Founding Father and educator Noah Webster (1758-1843) had this to say: "The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."

    SkepticalOne
  • @RickeyD
    There was NEVER a separation of Church and State in the manner envisioned by the demonic atheist.

    There is, and there has always been a separation of church and state the idea of separation of church and state just isn't the idea of  denial of reprteatation altogether. There is no citizen of the United States of America who is atheist, not known or understanding how GOD is not a religion by only a fact is not equal to being unable to provide a witness account which does not require GOD to be like a name  child given at birth to a person. As a numerical axiom GOD is 89 like IV is the value 4.

    Jesus is King and America is completely dependent upon Him for sustainability. Here rests the problem  " RickyD"  America has no KIng and Jesus does not hold united states consitution principles as a Presdient of the united states.


  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87 ;  No...you're simply wrong and taught wrong...the ONLY separation of Church and State is the limiting of Government to advocate for a theocracy or to prevent the individual their right to religious choice and expression but the Founder's primary concern was that no particular Christian denomination find exclusivity in the Federal process as the Founder's were wary of the Church of England, its abuses, as well as Catholicism, a cult...perversion of Christianity.

    Excerpt:  Church and state were distinct in that the Federal Government could not elevate one denomination over others. Nor could government and its flawed inhabitants usurp divine authority by harnessing politics to the church. Faith is no civil contract, but a personal matter not to be profaned by politics. https://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/07/09/the-true-meaning-of-separation-of-church-and-state/?sh=7b5fe9685d02



  • @RickeyD
      Church and state were distinct in that the Federal Government could not elevate one denomination over others.  

    The principle of separation of church and state apply directly to states of written and legislated law. At both State and Federal levels. Are you in full understanding of the self-evident fact held by the building of the House of Representatives and religions of European church by architectural design? Are you in understanding of the self-evident facts John Adams brings to bear into the ideas of morality Christianity brough to Washington D.C.? John Adams brings to bear in the ideas of morality of Christianity brough to Congress and Senate? 

    the ONLY separation of Church and State
    "Only" Does not apply when addressing separations of any kind upon a United State held as "whole truth" placing a search for the more perfect union is also held in the connection of the words State and Church, this is a union like all others that can be improved upon for the tranquiity of the people, by the people.

     No...you're simply wrong and taught wrong...There is a much larger legal history and context made between the 13 Colonies, America, England, France, and Spain in relationship the Freedom of speech then what is made by you as whole truth. I am wrong by a standard of instruction...sure, I take no offer for payment to lie, as I will not fall easily into the principle you hold by coaching, by your words taught for money as payment in school and organized education.

    In self-representation I am not wrong but most likely more thorough in my discoveries of truth and how they are to be held with whole truth within halls of justice when called upon. In self-representation I am not wrong but more thorough in my discoveries of truth and how they are to be held with whole truth within halls of justice and myself.


    The ideas of religion and people who direct politics is seen by connections of the Quaker view of Christianity held self-evident in the formation of the America's in the hostory held by the city of Philadelphia Pennsylvania.

  • RickeyDRickeyD 901 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87 ; Precedent was set by our Founder's, established as a covenant with the American people...whatever atheists and secular humanists, perverts-progressives, have done to the documents henceforth is of no relevance...only perversions that are not sustainable...much like your thinking, apparently. I am an originalist; evidently, you're not?

    Establishment has been redefined. Limitations on government have been altered into restrictions on religious expression, which clearly violates the amendment’s next clause: "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" and third clause “abridging the freedom of speech.” Meanwhile, Washington publicly imposes politically correct secular religions like worshiping diversity or the environment.

    Are our rights inalienable or contrivances from courts? Is government still limited or its power undefined? Is the state answerable to the people or are we but subjects? Do our rights descend from God or derive from man?

    America must decide.

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