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God's life is a test fallacy

Debate Information

Abrahamic/many religions claim that god created us to test us. However, we create tests when we are uncertain or ignorant about the outcome of something, so why would an all knowing god "test" us? Is he unsure? isn't is a contradiction?
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Persuaded Argument

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -   edited September 23

    What do I not understand? Please stop preaching this stuff and address my actual argument: that omniscience is incompatible with unpredictability, and predictability is incompatible with free will. Or is my point beyond your religious comprehension?

    Let me simplify it:

    1. God knows everything => nothing in the future is unknown.
    2. Nothing in the future is unknown => everything in the future is predefined.
    3. Everything in the future is predefined => everyone's actions are predefined.
    4. Everyone's actions are predefined => no one can make choices.
    5. No one can make choices => no one has free will.

    Please point out exactly at which of these 5 steps your agreement with my argument breaks.

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  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    God want children who have his character.  He has the angels who are his sons, but the angels are not capable of love.  They can only serve or not serve.  People are capable of good and capable of evil.   There is an adversary in the world to bring out the reality of a person.   Will that person be good or evil?  God want his children to unite with him one day.  A person could change at any time, so God is refining his children through this life.  Few will be refined.  Most will choose the wrong path, because of the ways of this world.  God is making sure that when his children are united with him, in the midst of being with him they don't turn evil and go bad.@jimmy3954
  • OakTownAOakTownA 366 Pts   -  
    You didn't answer the question:
    Do you believe god "tests" us? If he knows everything, he all ready knows how you will react, so why is the test necessary?

  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Yes, he tests us.  He knows the outcome, but we still have to go through the process.@OakTownA
  • OakTownAOakTownA 366 Pts   -  
    Why? What's the point?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -  
    My understanding is, god's "omniscience" in religion does not literally imply that god knows absolutely everything that will happen at every moment in time. Rather, it means something like this: god has a perfect knowledge of all the laws of this Universe and everything that happens at every point in it at a given point of time - but does not necessarily have the ability to perfectly predict future events. Think of it as similar to knowing the rules of the game of chess, but not being able to predict what the position on your board is going to look like 20 moves ahead.

    In that interpretation, god may want to set up some experiments to see whether his theories hold. He may think, "Hmm, if I create this type of intelligent creatures called humans, then I expect them over millennia to converge to this type of civilization. Let me see if I am right. Let us run this experiment on this planet... Oops, they exterminated themselves. How about here... Whoa, they blew up the whole solar system. Let us make some adjustments... Aha, they achieved a civilization of eternal bliss and prosperity. Too boring. Let us introduce some flaws, such as the ability to commit 'sin'... Yes, now we are talking, this is looking fun!"
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    God knows everything that is going to happen.  He thought it out from the beginning to the end before he even put in into existence.  That's why he says: Revelations 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.  He knows the beginning and he knows the end.  We all are given the opportunity to be transformed. @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -  

    If god knows everything, then there is no "test" to be put, as the god knows everything about every human's life, in the past, present and future. There is no "free will" then, as everything is fully deterministic.

    I offered an interpretation that actually makes your religion look a little less horrible than it is. You did a good job at bypassing that: well done!  ;)
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    God knows everything, but we don't.  If the work is not done in us, then we are the same as when we started.  We are full of sinful ways. @MayCaesar
  • dallased25dallased25 314 Pts   -  
    God knows everything, but we don't.  If the work is not done in us, then we are the same as when we started.  We are full of sinful ways. @MayCaesar
    Your view renders the entirety of existence as pointless. If god creates us for a purpose and he knows that purpose and that purpose is a part of a larger plan, then all we are doing is playing out a plan that was set into motion a long time ago and none of what we do matters, because it was already set in stone by this same god. So basically what god a play writer of a movie in which he's scripted all of the characters and they have no choice in ultimately what they do, or become, or how they die, or live, or what they say, or do...because the outcome to the movie is already written. So we are just puppets in a play with god pulling the strings. What an empty, pointless existence. 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -   edited September 22
    God knows everything, but we don't.  If the work is not done in us, then we are the same as when we started.  We are full of sinful ways. @MayCaesar
    God knew, when creating us, that we would not know everything. The work is absolutely completely done in us, but not by us, as, due to determinism and god's omniscience, our pathways were fully designed and predetermined by him. We are "full of sinful ways" because those ways were part of intentional design: god wanted us to be full of sinful ways, otherwise he would have created us differently.

    You are trying to reconcile two contradictions, without fully realizing that they are contradictions, because of all the religious conditioning you have received, masking the simple concepts behind the walls of religious abstractions.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    The point is to be changed.  To have his character.  To be united with him at the end of this time.  @OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    I keep telling you, but you don't understand.  If God would have made us so that we did not have free will, and that we could only serve or not serve and not be able to love, we would have been just like the angels. He wants us to choose to have his character.  Not force us to do anything.  To choose to be good or evil.  He made to angels to serve us.  That's why the devil is so angry.  We are a weaker vessel, but God chose us to be his heirs.@MayCaesar
  • OakTownAOakTownA 366 Pts   -  
    "The point is to be changed.  To have his character.  To be united with him at the end of this time."
    Why does this require tests from god? What is god's "character?" According to you, god all ready knows if a person will be "united with him at the end of this time," so again, why the tests?

  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    Because we can't be with him in the character that we are when we come into the world.  For example, you can't drive a car and expect for it to take you where you want to go, unless you first put gas in it.   The car can accomplish nothing until it has gas in it.  We have to go through intense change, because our nature is sinful.   But the thing is, is that a car will run out of gas and go right back to where it started from.  But when we are taken through intense change, we will not go back to the sinful nature.@OakTownA
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    God does know who will be changed and who will not.  So that give you the beginning and the end, but what happens in the middle.  How do we get from the beginning to the end result?   At the beginning you are sinful.  At the end your sinful nature has ceased.  How did you get there.  Test? @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -  

    Since god is omniscient and created me, how I get there has been fully predetermined, hence I cannot make any choice of my own.

    As I expected, you failed to answer my question. Religious people always run around in circles, throwing cryptic phrases and refusing to say or answer anything concrete. I will repeat my request: "Please point ou exactly at which of these steps your agreement with my argument breaks". It is a simple request: all you need to do is type in an integer number from 1 to 5, preferably with a brief explanation of the nature of your disagreement.
  • jimmy3954jimmy3954 22 Pts   -  
    @pamelajohnson1 "God is making sure" implies that he isn't already sure and therefore isn't all knowing and therefore isn't god.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    I answered your question.  You just don't understand the answer.@MayCaesar
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    God knows the end. We don't.  God is God.  He will aways be God.@jimmy3954
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4713 Pts   -   edited 1:48PM
    I answered your question.  You just don't understand the answer.@MayCaesar
    No, you did not. Stop lying please and answer it:
    MayCaesar said:
    Please point out exactly at which of these steps your agreement with my argument breaks.
    Or is answering direct questions not something you people do? You only cite cryptic verses and, when your opponents point out their ambiguity, you retort with, "You just don't understand it"? Great. :D I wish I could do the same in my field (STEM sciences)... "What, you guys see some errors in this machine learning algorithm? Ha-h, you just do not understand it; it is perfect. Now publish my paper, or burn in hell!"

    God knows the end. 
    That is the point. If god knows the end, then the end is predetermined, meaning there is nothing any human can choose: all roads lead to the same end. Now, you could relax your argument and say, "God knows the end, but not the path to the end" - that, at least, leaves some illusion of choice, although this is not much of a choice if its outcome is the same ("Here are 100 buttons; whichever you press, you get punched in the face, and if you press none or multiple ones, you get punched in the face. Choose!"). But omniscience does not allow even for that.

    I have the sense that you do not even understand the point. I would think that any child would be able to understand it. It takes a lot of religious conditioning to twist one's thinking so that simple arguments are completely obscured in their eyes.

    I just listened to Jordan Peterson's podcast this morning, where he was talking to a popular religious figure. The figure was saying the same kind of nonsense: "Resurrection of Jesus happened, but you should not take it as a material story: it is more than that. It precedes matter. There is no historical evidence of resurrection and there cannot be, because it is not a historical, but a divine phenomenon". A lot of smoke and mirrors, completely missing a very simple fact: that "Jesus was resurrected" simply means that Jesus was resurrected, and it is either true or false. 
    You people have this talent of saying a lot of complex (or, in your case, not so complex) sentences that have absolutely zero actual content. It is just random abstractions referencing each other, like a complex network graph - a graph that does not contain any nodes intersecting with reality.
  • pamelajohnson1pamelajohnson1 187 Pts   -  
    You are so right.  We were created for God's pleasure.  He is not a man, that he has to tip toe around our feelings.  We are the pawns in the game.  You either go with the ways of the creator, or you lose.  It doesn't matter if you don't think that it is fair.  You are the created.  How are we going to tell him what we think he should do.   Check mate. @dallased25
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