Putin has already lost!

Sargonski

Argument Topic: Putin has Lost --- turned out to be not such a good prediction

Turns out it was the EU and the US who has lost the Economic war part of this scenario.     Got it handed to us we did .. outside the west most of the rest of the world not buying into the sanctions  ..     China going around doing deals   ..  Making Peace between Iran- and El Saud -  debasing the Petro- Dollar ..  booting us out of the Middle East ..  China-Russia and the EU to some degree gonna be doing the rebuilding..     

the EU is suffering major economic pain over the cost of energy ---  Bidens little act of international terrorism .. essentially making economic war on Germany - ..  turns out to be a big blunder ..   EU begging for Cheap Russian Energy Back -  heads gonna roll come election time

This war has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster .. in so many ways ..  will be remembered as the straw that broke camel's back I think...  

Barnardot

@ZeusAres42 There's no way that Putin can loose because for one thing Russia is more mightier than Ukraine and has China on its side. So that alone means that Russia will win. It could win tomorrow if Putin wants to but hes just stretching it out a bit to soften up the Ukraines more.
Any way  just because some dufis says you cant repeat history means totally nothing.
And having a leg to stand on makes no difference either. Like so what, we invaded Iraq without a leg to stand on and so is Putin invading Ukraine but he has more of a leg because Ukraine broke away from Russia by tampering the voting system so that the government lost and some dufis who plays the piano with his doolie got in ton power.
So it was Ukraine who was doing the wrong thing and knocking off Russians all the time along the border. So all Putin is doing is putting things back right the way they were.
And another thing is Putin is proberly the most experienced and politically awear leader in the world and if any one thinks that he didnt work things out before hand are going to get a surprise. There is not a doubt in the world that Ukraine will fall. Its just a matter of time and Putin is going to chose that time exactly when he wants it to be. 

Swolliw

@Barnardot ;There's no way that Putin can loose

There is nearly every way that Putin can lose and barely any chance at all of achieving his objectives. We all know that Ukraine is a basket case in terms of its status and economy but Putin has to realise that the old Soviet Union was a failed union and Ukraine, once independent, and a member of Europe will thrive.

John_C_87

@Swolliw
Do we know his objective?

ZeusAres42

@Swolliw

Economists of both Russian and English have predicted Russian economy will begin to stagnate by mid 2023. Russia is already feeling wrath and things will get worse. Russian people have already started fighting against each other as a result of this too 

However, I do feel it is a shame that innocent citizens should have to suffer because of the actions of one man and his clan. 

Putin wants to try and recreate the Soviet empire. I guess he is another genocidal maniac that did not learn that you cannot recreate history.

ZeusAres42

Putin has already shown all of his cards. He just loves to showboat. A big weakness on his part.  

Swolliw

@John_C_87

Do we know his objective?

We don't and indeed there is conjecture from all angles and sides of politics. Did we know Hitler's objectives? No, at least not until it was too late.

Our modern, civilized world has come a long way in such a short space of time and Putin's old world bully-boy style of tyrannical rule and expansionism just doesn't cut the mustard.

MineSubCraftStarved

@ZeusAres42
It can be admitted that Russia has lost(for the most part) its original military goal in Ukraine.
However, this does not detract that Russia has managed to secure much of Southern and Eastern secure for Russian annexation. I expect that the borders of this war will ultimately most reflect the linguistic/dialectic differences of the region if nothing else.
However, Putin can never truly "lose" unless he loses to his own people. I think we have to keep in mind that Russia has a nuclear stockpile of around 6250, Ukraine therefore has absolutely no ability to enter Russian territory, much less dethrone Putin's regime.
Additionally, European countries have been caught off-guard by the lack of energy caused by the Russian oil sanctions. While this winter was better this year in terms of energy, the effects on fuel will have profound impacts in the coming years.
Putin may not be winning, but neither is the West.

John_C_87

@ZeusAres42
Do you like Mint Tulips?
Ever notice how some alcohalic drinks can trigger memories?

Dave Mason, 1977, "We just disagree".

ZeusAres42

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@ZeusAres42
It can be admitted that Russia has lost(for the most part) its original military goal in Ukraine.
However, this does not detract that Russia has managed to secure much of Southern and Eastern secure for Russian annexation. I expect that the borders of this war will ultimately most reflect the linguistic/dialectic differences of the

Yes, Russia did not achieve, and what they have achieved so far could also take a turn. From a military perspective, they have done some damage to the Ukraine but they have not overtaken all of Ukraine or managed to rebuild something akin to the Soviet Empire which I do believe was Putin's goal.

However, Putin can never truly "lose" unless he loses to his own people.

Right now, Russia is divided which I do believe was the goal of the West as well as Asian countries; it seems people have forgotten that Asia is also against Russia here, except for a few allies which are remaining neutral for the first part anyway. In any case, Russian people have already started going to war with each other literally, with some parts trying to blow up other parts. I also am not so sure division via world isolation is right though from a moral perspective; it's not fair that all the innocent citizens of Russia have to suffer because of the actions of one genocidal maniac and his terrorist crew.

On another note, the isolation of the whole nation also played right into Putin's hands. This was just ammunition for Putin to further brainwash the Russian public into hating the West even more.

  I think we have to keep in mind that Russia  has a nuclear stockpile of around 6250, Ukraine therefore has absolutely no ability to enter Russian territory, much less dethrone Putin's regime.

Yes, Ukraine does not have nuclear power. Hence why Putin has no fear of invading; he only attacks countries that are weak in this respect (AKA bullying). On another note, Putin loves to showboat how powerful he is with all this new military technology, and he does it on a daily bases, and daily threatens NATO countries with the threat of nuclear war (NATO countries are not taking him seriously here and with good reason). Just because he likes to make a lot of noise doesn't mean that other countries do not have the same or more/better. I find quiet countries like China that don't give much away far more concerning than one that loves to show his full deck. Furthermore, only one nuclear attack is enough to cause damage and if came to this then this would result in MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).

Additionally, European countries have been caught off-guard by the lack of energy caused by the Russian oil sanctions. While this winter was better this year in terms of energy, the effects on fuel will have profound impacts in the coming years.
Putin may not be winning, but neither is the West.

This is an overly simplistic view here that fails to take into account multiple other variables. For example, several European countries either never relied on Russia or if they did it was very minuscule. For instance, the economic failure of the UK rests largely on the results of Brexit. The majority of the current economic crises in the UK seen now are exactly what economists had predicted would happen as a result of Brexit long before Brexit was even actioned as also stated by British Economists recently. Putin didn't really need to do anything to affect the UK's economy as the UK seems to do a pretty good job at f*cking this up themselves. Also, the UK wasn't even relying on Russia that much for energy, anyway and we already had/have backups in addition to trading with the USA such as the North Sea Oils, and other measures. We actually cut all ties with Russia's trade and not allowing Putin this chance to do this in the first place. I guess the UK was lucking in this respect. Other countries not so much.

Then there are the Covid lockdowns that largely affected the whole global economy at an exponential rate.

Then there is the variable that every country will have its own individual economic issues that have nothing to do with Russia, or Covid lockdowns, etc.

Then, there are still those countries that not doing too badly at all such as on each Continent, such as Canada, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand, Norway, Sweeden, China, Japan, and so forth.

Russia is indeed far worse here in comparison to a large portion of the rest of the modern world. The only thing is though, is this enough to affect Putin himself or does he walk away unscathed?

@MineSubCraftStarved

John_C_87

@ZeusAres42

Yes, Russia did not achieve, and what they have achieved so far could also take a turn. From a military perspective, they have done some damage to the Ukraine but they have not overtaken all of Ukraine or managed to rebuild something akin to the Soviet Empire which I do believe was Putin's goal.

What Executive office Putin states as a report and what intelligence finds are not always equal ZeusAres42. The purpose of the invasion of Ukraine was to attempt an international trigger a response, a reaction  like what had been directed at Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait. The difference being no use of chemical weapons had been conducted by EO Putin prior to invasion and acts of War. There is an attempt to rebuild an economy that shadows the cold war economy of the past using threats of chemicl Warfare. There are simply too many facts that have changed since the Cold War for that to happen simply because a couple nations make threats of chemical warfare. Again, human inteligence tells us these type threats are misguided.

The threats are taken as very real, what is doubtful might be the understanding of past treaties and arms agreements had been broken. The issue as a whole might come back a really hurt believe it or not Israel as the use of Atomic Weapons will be moving into international law as chemical warfare not a countries self-defense. These type missiles and weapons are for object impact defense from the vast area of solar system, galaxy, and finally the universe. Not that I personally do not like Israel, but they have entered a risk by describing a constitution based on law. This is like saying a nation is basing the connection to established justice on law, with other laws, guiding any numbers of law. I can be wrong but when explained as a truth in that way it sounds off.

Sargonski

Argument Topic: Putin has Crushed it out of the ball park ....

ZeusAres42 said:

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@ZeusAres42
It can be admitted that Russia has lost(for the most part) its original military goal in Ukraine.
However, this does not detract that Russia has managed to secure much of Southern and Eastern secure for Russian annexation. I expect that the borders of this war will ultimately most reflect the linguistic/dialectic differences of the

Yes, Russia did not achieve, and what they have achieved so far could also take a turn. From a military perspective, they have done some damage to the Ukraine but they have not overtaken all of Ukraine or managed to rebuild something akin to the Soviet Empire which I do believe was Putin's goal.

However, Putin can never truly "lose" unless he loses to his own people.

Right now, Russia is divided which I do believe was the goal of the West as well as Asian countries; it seems people have forgotten that Asia is also against Russia here, except for a few allies which are remaining neutral for the first part anyway. In any case, Russian people have already started going to war with each other literally, with some parts trying to blow up other parts. I also am not so sure division via world isolation is right though from a moral perspective; it's not fair that all the innocent citizens of Russia have to suffer because of the actions of one genocidal maniac and his terrorist crew.

On another note, the isolation of the whole nation also played right into Putin's hands. This was just ammunition for Putin to further brainwash the Russian public into hating the West even more.

  I think we have to keep in mind that Russia  has a nuclear stockpile of around 6250, Ukraine therefore has absolutely no ability to enter Russian territory, much less dethrone Putin's regime.

Yes, Ukraine does not have nuclear power. Hence why Putin has no fear of invading; he only attacks countries that are weak in this respect (AKA bullying). On another note, Putin loves to showboat how powerful he is with all this new military technology, and he does it on a daily bases, and daily threatens NATO countries with the threat of nuclear war (NATO countries are not taking him seriously here and with good reason). Just because he likes to make a lot of noise doesn't mean that other countries do not have the same or more/better. I find quiet countries like China that don't give much away far more concerning than one that loves to show his full deck. Furthermore, only one nuclear attack is enough to cause damage and if came to this then this would result in MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).

Additionally, European countries have been caught off-guard by the lack of energy caused by the Russian oil sanctions. While this winter was better this year in terms of energy, the effects on fuel will have profound impacts in the coming years.
Putin may not be winning, but neither is the West.

This is an overly simplistic view here that fails to take into account multiple other variables. For example, several European countries either never relied on Russia or if they did it was very minuscule. For instance, the economic failure of the UK rests largely on the results of Brexit. The majority of the current economic crises in the UK seen now are exactly what economists had predicted would happen as a result of Brexit long before Brexit was even actioned as also stated by British Economists recently. Putin didn't really need to do anything to affect the UK's economy as the UK seems to do a pretty good job at f*cking this up themselves. Also, the UK wasn't even relying on Russia that much for energy, anyway and we already had/have backups in addition to trading with the USA such as the North Sea Oils, and other measures. We actually cut all ties with Russia's trade and not allowing Putin this chance to do this in the first place. I guess the UK was lucking in this respect. Other countries not so much.

Then there are the Covid lockdowns that largely affected the whole global economy at an exponential rate.

Then there is the variable that every country will have its own individual economic issues that have nothing to do with Russia, or Covid lockdowns, etc.

Then, there are still those countries that not doing too badly at all such as on each Continent, such as Canada, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand, Norway, Sweeden, China, Japan, and so forth.

Russia is indeed far worse here in comparison to a large portion of the rest of the modern world. The only thing is though, is this enough to affect Putin himself or does he walk away unscathed?

@MineSubCraftStarved

Russia is going to end up with 30% of Ukraine --   some of the most fertile and best parts along with strategic control of the Black Sea..     

At the same time he has defeated NATO  -- who has run out of ammo  --  Artillery  -   Air defense on last legs .. also out of Ammo ..  Ukraine is runing ouf of Bodies ..  NATO hopelessly unprepared for a ground and pound like this ..   

But the real War .. the economic War ..    that is where Putin's Star is Brightest ..  the Sanctions a huge fail ...   US and Europe the ones who got really hurt ..    US hegemony a huge kick in the nuts.  ..  the straw that broke the camels back will this war be recorded as in the history books ..  The US Dollar Supremicy under seige like never since  it took the reigns. 

China laughing all the way to the bank .. and looking like the hero going around making peace between long rivals. 

Did you not notice  the big Middle Finger from the MIddle East mate ?    in particular Brother El Saud ? 

Bogan

As I understand the military situation in Ukraine, Ukraine now has a bigger, better equipped, and better trained army than Russia.     The Ukrainians have at least 9 "assault brigades" (3000-5000 men) equipped mainly with western equipment, waiting for the rains to stop and the ground to harden.     The ground must be hard for the offensive to begin.     Every day, Ukraine gets stronger and Russia gets weaker.      It is very likely that when the Ukrainian offensive begins, they will cause the Russians to panic and may well drive them right out of Ukraine altogether.       The fighting around Bakhmut where Ukraine has stopped the Russian offensive and is now rolling the Russians back, is indicative to me that the Ukrainians are tired of waiting, and they decided tom use a couple of their assault brigades to engage the Ivans and see how they do.     They seem to be going quite well.     The Ukrainians are now pushing back the Ivans in Bakhmut itself, and beginning to encircle the city.    Bakhmut could become Putin's Stalingrad.

I have always wondered why everybody was so scared of the Russian Army?      If the yanks and the Brits in 1943 had not given the Russians Spitfires, Hurricanes, Aircobras, B-25's, A-10 Havocs, a million tons of military rations, ammunition, and 50,000 GMC trucks, the Russians would still be trying to take Berlin.

MineSubCraftStarved

@ZeusAres42

Russian people have already started going to war with each other literally, with some parts trying to blow up other parts. 

Not to any significant measure. At least as of February, the vast majority of Russians still support the war in Ukraine. So to suggest significant internal divisions within the Russian populace seems rather far-stretched.
https://www.statista.com/chart/28436/support-for-war-in-ukraine-russians/

one genocidal maniac and his terrorist crew.

It is definitely unfair to call Putin a "genocidal" or "terroristic" maniac. While he is bad, he is nowhere near such attributes. Russia currently lacks a policy of systematically killing Ukrainians, and thus is not a genocidal country, and therefore Putin, as Russia's leader, is not genocidal. I agree that Putin is a bad leader and person, but we should place labels in proportion and validity.

This is an overly simplistic view here that fails to take into account multiple other variables. For example, several European countries either never relied on Russia or if they did it was very minuscule. For instance, the economic failure of the UK rests largely on the results of Brexit. 

Germany, NATO's strongest EU partner suffered rather heavily from the war due to its reliance on Russian fuel. Gas prices in the United States have also risen precipitately, along with gas prices in many other countries. Perhaps the United Kingdom was already struggling with economic difficulties, however, this does not discount the effect of the war on its economy and fuel, among those of other countries.

Then there are the Covid lockdowns that largely affected the whole global economy at an exponential rate.

Covid lockdowns are not actively affecting the current energy stockpiles and fuel shortages and prices throughout Western Countries. However, such variables are changed in the largest manner by Russia.

Then, there are still those countries that not doing too badly at all such as on each Continent, such as Canada, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand, Norway, Sweeden, China, Japan, and so forth.

True, the economic effects of the war have not been felt yet, gas prices have still increased substantially (just look at the United States: https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts). And while we have seen a rise in gas prices as of late, this does not discount the effect on further energy production through alternative methods such as nuclear and green energy, which are not ideal in the current international situation for the West.

Russia is indeed far worse here in comparison to a large portion of the rest of the modern world. The only thing is though, is this enough to affect Putin himself or does he walk away unscathed?

The way I see it this is just a war of attrition. Russia has experienced economic stagnation for around a decade or so, so slower growth will likely not have a significant effect on its populace. However, the economic bubble within the United States may eventually lead to a large economic recession, hurting both Europe and the United States. I think the way Putin sees this, he just has to hold out long enough for NATO support to dwindle away from economic disaster and political instability.