Should we create a new economic system?

BonitaVanhooser

For me, digital and central currency system on its way. 

John_C_87

@theinfectedmaster

Should we create a new economic system?

A new economic system has aleady be created..

John_C_87

@BonitaVanhooser

For me, digital and central currency system on its way. 
Is that an economic system or a service institution for an economic system?

just_sayin

@theinfectedmaster
I don't see the point and maybe its because I'm not understanding the topic/issue you are really wanting to talk about.  For me, our system changes over time to accommodate changes in technology or spending behavior.  If that's what you are getting at, I think the markets will figure it out for themselves.  Are you making an argument against capitalism?  Then I would ask you to list the countries that Marxism ever lifted out of poverty.  If Marxism worked then Cuba and North Korea would be much richer than Caribbean Countries and South Korea.  Instead, they are both poorer.  Having spent a lot of time in Cuba, I can tell you it is very messed up.  A doctor will make about $50 American money per month.  That's good for Cuba.  But a doorman to one of the tourist hotels in Havana will make that in a week.  In fact, a major drive to learn English in Cuba, is for people to get into tourism.  Even Cubans know that the best way to get rich in their country is to get as close to capitalists as you can.

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: We just need a more pure form of capitalism

The government simply needs to remove the following:
* Minimum wage
* Ridiculous government regulations
* Rent control
* Gun control
* free government health care
* mandated paid leave
* mandated company diversification
* wage control
* These ridiculous things government spends money on https://moneyminiblog.com/lists/stupidest-things-u-s-government-spends-money-on/
* subsidies
* Native American government departments
* Affirmative action
* Mandated paid leave
* DMCA
* free abortion
* legalized Abortion in general
* Legal Medical weed
* etc.
Only then will we have a nigh perfect system.

John_C_87

Pepsiguy said:

The government simply needs to remove the following:
* Minimum wage
* Ridiculous government regulations
* Rent control
* Gun control
* free government health care
* mandated paid leave
* mandated company diversification
* wage control
* These ridiculous things government spends money on https://moneyminiblog.com/lists/stupidest-things-u-s-government-spends-money-on/
* subsidies
* Native American government departments
* Affirmative action
* Mandated paid leave
* DMCA
* free abortion
* legalized Abortion in general
* Legal Medical weed
* etc.
Only then will we have a nigh perfect system.

So are you saying a government should not govern. Regulate? The actual Untied States Constitutional right that allows American's to speak openly at liberty is based on their own intelectual ablilaties to establish more perfect unions to established justice.

You are offering no better detail….

None…..Zero. Not even something that might be too hard form the masses to understand.

Nomenclature

Argument Topic: 100 Percent

@theinfectedmaster

Capitalism is a complete and total disaster which has led to some of the worst wealth inequalities the planet has ever seen. This would be more commonly understood if mass media weren't under the control of capitalists. 

just_sayin

@John_C_87
I think you may be misunderstanding @Pepsiguy.  I'm not sure I fully agree with him, but I think he is not suggesting that government should never do anything, but that in the instances identified their actions have had a negative impact.

For instance, take the minimum wage.  If you are skilled and get the minimum wage increase it definitely seems like a good thing.  Problem is that it harms the lowest skilled workers, especially low skilled minority workers, and those with prison records as that it reduces rungs on the ladder to success, reduces their hours, reduces job opportunities, reduces benefits, or results in them being fired.  As Harvard Review reported on California's minimum wage hike (this isn't the most recent one):

However, our data suggests that the way in which those hours were allocated among workers did change. For every $1 increase in the minimum wage, we found that the total number of workers scheduled to work each week increased by 27.7%, while the average number of hours each worker worked per week decrease by 20.8%. For an average store in California, these changes translated into four extra workers per week and five fewer hours per worker per week — which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%.

The National Bureau of Economic Research did a study of minimum wage studies.  Here is what they found:

“[The] body of evidence and its conclusions point strongly toward negative effects of minimum wages on employment of less-skilled workers, especially for the types of studies that would be expected to reveal these negative employment effects most clearly,” economists David Neumark and Peter Shirley write. 

Washington States initial study on minimum wage found:

“Seattle’s minimum wage ordinance appears to have delivered higher pay to experienced workers at the cost of reduced opportunity for the inexperienced.”

For the record, when Seattle's board didn't get the results they wanted, they had the study pulled.  However, its methodology was impeccable.  Most minimum wage surveys may do a few scattered phone interviews with shop owners, but Washington State followed each minimum wage earner and reported on each's fortunes after the minimum wage law went into effect.  The result according to the study, is that workers who were making minimum wage before the minimum wage law went into effect were making $1,5000 a year less after the minimum wage law.  Most lost hours and benefits.  Some found themselves unemployable in the new environment.

In DC, the 2014 minimum wage law resulted in hundreds of job losses.  

The strongest evidence comes from the nation’s capital, where leisure and hospitality employment, which rose at least 3% annually over the prior four years, fell an average of 1% from a year ago in the three months through November. So instead of adding 2,000 or more jobs per year, restaurants, hotels and the rest of the leisure and hospitality sector have lost about 700 jobs.

New York lost hundreds of jobs with its minimum wage hike in 2019.  

The Hospitality Alliance survey found that more than three quarters of New York restaurants cut worker hours in 2018 to offset that year's wage hike. Seventy-five percent say they want to cut hours this year.
"Though the new regulations are intended to benefit employees, some restaurateurs and staffers say that take-home pay ends up being less due to fewer hours — or that employees face more work because there are fewer staffers per shift," notes Tara Crowl in an article in New York Eater.

just_sayin

@Nomenclature
What???  Let's talk the health care system that Michael Moore said the US should follow Cuba's.  I've spent some time in Cuba, and have been treated by doctor's there.  The average hospital room for patients has a least 6 beds in it.  There are no sheets - you must bring your own.  There is no toilet seat or paper.  And the janitor mopped the floor by dipping the mop in the toilet.  To see a doctor can take months, and to have a procedure can be 6 months to a year.  And if you need some exotic medicine like baby cough syrup or eyedrops forget finding it a pharmacia and just go tot he Black Market instead.  Seriously, outside of the tourist area in Havana, most neighborhood pharmacies display all their medicines on a card table (yep, and I'm not making it up).  

Every time I go to Cuba I take glasses, things like crutches and wheel chairs, and basic medicines.  The system just can't provide them.

Surely the UK is better.  Well, a little.  Still the Red Cross has declared the health care system a national disaster.  Because it is government run, the system doesn't pay its doctors and nurses decent wages. It is estimated that England’s branch of the NHS has a shortage of 12,000 hospital doctors and an estimated 50,000 nurses and midwives.  According to a survey sponsored by the Royal College of General Practitioners, a third of British General Practitioners are considering leaving medical practice within the next five years. Meanwhile, nurses are also complaining about low pay and many may be forced to leave the profession.

Heritage reported:

In a separate account of the travails of the system, The Telegraph reports that 50,000 people are dying annually because of “poor treatment.” Of the 6.6 million on medical waiting lists, some patients have been waiting “more than two years.”

Canadian waitlists are so long that its equivalent of the Supreme Court ruled that access to a wait list isn't the same as healthcare and allows citizens to get health insurance as a result of the bad job Canada has done providing access. 

John_C_87

@just_sayin
I think you may be misunderstanding @Pepsiguy.  I'm not sure I fully agree with him, but I think he is not suggesting that government should never do anything, but that in the instances identified their actions have had a negative impact.
First thanks for the information and detail of concern in regards to minimum wages.

There was limited judgment made in questions raised not disagreeing with what has been listed by Pepsiguy understanding it’s just raw honesty. I am looking for a little more information in the idea of changes to be made over time as a suggestion to any dead stop is never a practical argument in the act of governing any economic system. I am looking for a understanding of confirmation on this fact in questioning the very meaning of governing something.

On top of this the real long term  issue of us is looking at human wage as a United State Constitutional Right and how would a legislative body of people hold such a goal as a self-evident truth which is inalienable as fact to be set before the courts in the most broad and perfect connection to be made humanly possible..

John_C_87

I understand this concept to be foreign to many people not just here on the web site but everywhere. The job of a President of the United States of America is different by legal precedent than any other place in the world. The President /Presadera job is to direct congress in the formation of states of the union to transform law into American Untied States Constitutional Right. This is a job above and beyond the idea of politics and political party.

John_C_87

Is there such a thing as the perfect economic law? I want to say no... anyone else want to make a contribution to a better state of the union?

MineSubCraftStarved

Nomenclature said:

Capitalism is a complete and total disaster which has led to some of the worst wealth inequalities the planet has ever seen. This would be more commonly understood if mass media weren't under the control of capitalists. 

Capitalism is defined as an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, economic decisions, investments, prices, production, and distribution of wealth, goods, and services.

Countries that abide by this definition more and more, specifically in terms of economic freedom, tend to experience greater living standards, GDP growth, and GDP per capita.
We can see this through, for example, Singapore.
Singapore has had a consistently high economic freedom ranking from 1995-2021, with it never going below 86/100.
With this in mind, the GDP per capita of Singapore has increased from around 25,000 to 73,000 dollars in the same time period, meanwhile, a country with low economic freedom such as Zimbabwe, has economic stagnation.
Zimbabwe's economic freedom from 1995-2021 has consistently been below 50, and at some points was as low as 21, its GDP per capita in 1995 was $1610, and in 2021 it was $1210.

These two examples demonstrate that increased economic freedom - and thus increased capitalism - has a clear correlation between GDP per capita growth and thus the wealth and prosperity of the nation.
Capitalism can also be proven to be effective logically, capitalism is ultimately based on an individual's desire to expand his/her wealth and property, which is a basic human instinct - a desire for self-preservation and individual success. This helps economically because this desire to expand one's wealth, rather than expanding the wealth of other people or society as a whole creates, jobs and businesses. This leads to competition between businesses which leads to innovation and thus leads to the progression of human society.
The fundamental wealth inequality in capitalism is based on the fact that some people are more successful than others and thus are rewarded more, this is not a bad thing. Wealth inequalities are even seen in non-capitalistic systems, such as the wealth held by the ruling class in countries like the USSR and Communist China.

Nomenclature

Argument Topic: Sigh...

@just_sayin

What???  Let's talk the health care system that Michael Moore said the US should follow Cuba's. 

No, let's talk about what on Earth Michael Moore has to do with the failures of capitalism. 

In a separate account of the travails of the system, The Telegraph reports that 50,000 people are dying annually because of “poor treatment.”

The UK is a capitalist country, so I have zero idea what your point is. Most of its healthcare products and services are outsourced to private contractors.

In capitalist countries, 9 million people starve to death every year and another 3 million die from lack of clean drinking water and/or poor sanitation.

In capitalist countries, the twenty six richest people own more wealth than the poorest fifty percent of the planet. You must genuinely have rocks in your head to believe that's a just economic system.

just_sayin

@Nomenclature
Yep, capitalism is the the worst system on the planet, well, except for all the others.  When people say capitalism is bad, its obvious they have never lived under communism/socialism.  Who has a higher standard of living - the average person in North or South Korea. Before the war, it was one country.  Now, socialist North Koreans are starving and are shot if they try and leave.  Cuba was one of the wealthiest Caribbean countries before the revolution, now it is one of the poorest.  If socialism really worked, it should be one of the richest.  A common saying in Cuba is this "we pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us."  When you can't get ahead because the government won't let you, there is no motivation or desire to innovate or try.

Capitalism has lifted over 1 billion people out of poverty in the last 30 years.  From Forbes:

According to Norberg, 200 years ago, at the birth of capitalism, there were only about 60 million people in the world who were not living in extreme poverty. Today there are more than 6.5 billion people who are not living in extreme poverty. Between 1990 and 2015 alone (in Thomas Piketty’s view the devastating years in which social inequality rose so sharply), 1.25 billion people around the world escaped extreme poverty—50 million per year and 138,000 every day.

Some bemoan that rich people got richer, but fail to observe not as many people are starving as they use to (See Forbes).  

In 1820, 94% of the world’s population was living in extreme poverty. By 1910, this figure had fallen to 82%, and by 1950 the rate had dropped yet further, to 72%. However, the largest and fastest decline occurred between 1981 (44.3%) and 2015 (9.6%).

Capitalism did that!  Communism didn't lift anyone, other than the Castro brothers and Che Guevara, out of poverty.  Poverty is rampant there.  Same goes for North Korea.  In Venezuela, 65.2% of the country's inhabitants live in poverty.  If socialism worked, and capitalism didn't there would be a lot more fat people in Venezuela and a whole lot more skinnier people in the US.

The middle class is shrinking, as they move into richer brackets (see Cato).  So don't be envious of the billionaire, and acknowledge that more people have moved out of poverty and moved into wealthier brackets.  So yeah capitalism, and boo poverty inducing socialism.

John_C_87

Capitalism is the only economic system there really is...

The argument is nothing more than a method of legal distraction / confusion. When a government be it Russia, Chine, or North Korea privately hold Capital to their exclusive ownership it is still Capitalism. It is only the members of the business community which are limited.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

Before going into a detailed explanation of statistics you may be able to claim members of communist groups are living below a certain poverty level. However, in doing so you ignore the real issue of communism in the first place. In case you would like to argue that point specifically just_saying I will detail it for you. There cannot be a poverty level in a communist country...It is this fact which should be brought to the attention of the public. As a social network like communism dissolves certain bands of liberty between all people. Whereas a united state constitutional network does not.

Again to be crystal clear communism is still the preservation of a constitutional idea, however that idea is a private singularity and not a united state. Making it on the opposite side of a scale from nations like America. I’m taking it that some people out of frustration of being unable to process the complexities of Constitutional United States simply abandon the overall observation of what a human constitution really is.

Capitalism did that!  Communism didn't lift anyone, other than the Castro brothers and Che Guevara, out of poverty.  Poverty is rampant there.  Same goes for North Korea.  In Venezuela, 65.2% of the country's inhabitants live in poverty.  If socialism worked, and capitalism didn't there would be a lot more fat people in Venezuela and a whole lot more skinnier people in the US.

In addressing connections in the constitutional state of the union the fact is some people globally live outside the charts of established economic guidelines, one of these guidelines is poverty itself. To simplify this discussion, we are simply talking about a difference between liberty and freedom among the people.  Being aware of the point of focus of one’s own trouble shoot in conversation is important in applying result which create adequate solution. Would you not agree?

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: America isn't even truly capitalist

@just_sayin
In our country, businesses lobby to add regulations to keep their competitors off the market. Its an ugly system of cheating called Crony Capitalism. Crony capitalism is the reason why the silicon valley monopolies exist. Crony capitalism isn't even capitalism it's just socialism but with capitalist flavor. It's like wrapping a dog turd in gold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism
http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxXHh-p-O4
http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPBNl7WGFmI

Jeff Bezos supports raising the minimum wage to $15. This isn't because he's trying to be a good guy - quite the opposite, he's doing it because he knows his opposition cannot pay for all those wages. This is a prime example of crony capitalism at work

DMCA is another example.

just_sayin

@John_C_87 said:
There cannot be a poverty level in a communist country.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your point. I hope I have.  There are indeed poverty levels in communist countries.  Now communist countries have a lot more of the population in poverty and extreme poverty, with far fewer in middle and upper classes.  Take Cuba for example - those who are officials in the communist party are far wealthier than the masses.  People are paid differently in Cuba, even the Cuban government will admit that (though they inflate what the salaries are).  Let's just take their reported numbers at face value though for a moment.  A physician will make $1,648 US dollars a year (that's about twice the actual real salary - but let's go with it), while a store cashier will make $206 US dollars annually..  Now, that's a huge disparity.  I know its the difference between poor and really poor, but it is a disparity.

Further, where you live in Cuba makes a huge difference in average income.  Those who live in Havana or Santiago de Cuba are near ports where tourists visit.  So, they have greater access to capitalists and therefore have higher incomes than those in the central and lower portions of Cuba, like the province of Las Tunas.  People in Havana are much more likely to have relatives in the US, due to it having closer proximity to the US, and therefore would be more likely to be recipients of remittances.  Fewer people in the middle and southern parts of the island have relatives outside the country who send them money, and tend to be much poorer.  

A dirty secret in Cuba, is that the closer you can get to a capitalist, the better off you will be financially.  A door man at a tourist hotel in Havana will make more in tips than a doctor will make a year.  Positions that allow for interaction with tourists are coveted for that reason.  

John_C_87

@just_sayin

1. Cuba uses three types of currancy....not one.

2. A poverty level is a means for organized regulation of social health issues not economic issues. The connection here is argued as not being towards the state of the union of established justice when using it as a economic marketing ploy. You will never help a struggling economy using the principles of poverty level it is a Trojan horse.

3. The Federal Reserve Bank migration to the IMF started in the 1960's the International Monetary Fund can be seen as using a incomplete information in its valuing system.

 International Monetary Fund - Homepage (imf.org)

MayCaesar

Economic systems are not something one "creates": they arise naturally as humans interact with each other and establish norms and procedures facilitating that interaction. All attempts to manually create an economical system in human history ended in an unbelievable failure, because they are based on fundamental misunderstanding of what an economy is.

In the incredible "Rise of the West" manuscript the author makes the case that the extent to which a human society thrives is directly determined by the extent to which humans are allowed to develop their own economical relationships, without any bandits, fathers or kings determining it for them. Trying to control economical activities of others in order to make them wealthier is like trying to force others to have sex in order to make them happier: it runs contrary to basic logic. Even if you somehow could mathematically derive the best sex partner for everyone, the very fact of being forced to have sex with one's best partner would undermine the whole point: the sex would not be fulfilling. Similarly, imposing economical restrictions on someone in order to protect them from their own mistakes is going to ruin the outcome.

So no, no economical model should be "created". Instead, the current models around the world should be un-created, and people should be free to develop new, voluntary norms. I want to negotiate the terms of the purchase of a pound of apples with the seller directly; I do not want anyone from the IRS, FDA and the police to hold us both at a gunpoint as we do do.

John_C_87

@MayCaesar

Do you also believe that we should have no maps, GPS, or compass and clocks for navigation?

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: The reason

@just_sayin

In communism there are 2 classes. The rich guys who are politically affiliated, and everyone else who gets absolutely nothing in return. In communism everyone is equally poor. And in communism you work and starve.

I know because I was born in Cuba and the unaffiliated folk get the following:

* no wifi/internet at home. You have to go to a park to get wifi and even then its slow(dial up internet level) and censored
* No stores to buy toys or gadgets.
* Empty supermarkets
* censorship.
* Awful medical system. You have to bring your own toilet paper.
* regulated religion
* equal poverty
* A ton of species are critically endangered like the Cuban crocodile
* No democracy. They have "elections" but those are rigged.
* One party system
* No car owning, you wanna go somewhere? Then get a taxi.
* Everything looks like its 1959.
* All the famed Cuban musicians like Selia Cruz left to the US.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

A dirty secret in Cuba, is that the closer you can get to a capitalist, the better off you will be financially.  A door man at a tourist hotel in Havana will make more in tips than a doctor will make a year.  Positions that allow for interaction with tourists are coveted for that reason.  

So, doctors who work at the sme hotels earn higher wages as well?

just_sayin

@John_C_87
So, doctors who work at the sme hotels earn higher wages as well?

I've never seen a doctor working at a hotel.  As far as the hotel goes - think something out of the 1950's in a second or third world country.  Cuban citizens are not allowed to enter the hotels, nor are they allowed to enter the beach area where tourists go.  

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Cuba Experiences

@Pepsiguy
You are right that there were very few toys.  I did see a few toys at a "mall" in Havana, but it was just a couple and stuff that would be deemed too cheap for dollar stores in the US to carry.  The mall did sell TVs but they were more expensive than if they were sold in the US.  But you are right, the stores are small, only carrying the basics with lots of empty shelves.

I had several friends who owned their car.  Tourists weren't suppose to ride in them though - only the taxis.  Once you own a car you are required to keep it running into perpetuity.  There are no junkyards.  And every car that I've ridden in, in Cuba, broke down somewhere along the trip.  I am impressed at how they keep the cars running.

John_C_87

@just_sayin
Never mind I will look the information myself.........
Just thought you might know or have it already...

jack

Pepsiguy said:

 
In our country, businesses lobby to add regulations to keep their competitors off the market. Its an ugly system of cheating called Crony Capitalism.

Hello P:

Exactumundo..  Let's outlaw lobbyists, right now, ALL of 'em.  Is that a violation of the 1st Amendment?  Proly.   So, let's do the next best thing, and institute term limits.  Ain't nothing unconstitutional with that.

excon

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

What you are describing sounds extremely similar to my parents' descriptions of the Soviet system. Dental operations were done with ancient rotators that constantly got stuck in the teeth causing tremendous pain to the patient, and the only anesthetic was alcohol. Anything more complicated than asking for a prescription for the common cold had you take a leave from work, run to the hospital early in the morning and hope to be treated before the hospital is closed at night; anything requiring surgery had you wait in a queue for months/years.

When it comes to cars, 15+ year waiting periods were very common. And at the end you still had to come up with an amount of money almost no one in the country could reasonably have - unless you had some connections up in the ranks, a car would remain your dream until the day you die.

Of course, all of this did not apply to the party elite, oh no. Their children studied and lived in America, and they themselves shopped at foreign boutiques closed to everyone else, drove Western cars and went to a doctor in Paris or Vienna.

This is how these regimes function: they sell a ridiculous ideology to the masses, while themselves enjoying the fruits of Western capitalism. Socialists here in the US still have not figured out that they are being played and that the only beneficiaries of socialism are those who do not have to live under it.