Should the voting age be abolished?

Sonofason

theinfectedmaster said:

I was reading online from articles that the vote age shouldn't be an existence. What do you any of you think about this?

yeah, lets put the fate of the nation in the hands of 3 year olds...great idea.

just_sayin

@theinfectedmaster
I don't understand the argument for no age limit on voting.  What is the rationale given?  

theinfectedmaster

@Sonofason I honestly don't think there should be a voting age because everyone's mental age is different at different ages. I don't believe in being too young to do anything

leonhardvon

@theinfectedmaster Well you're right about the mental age of everyone being different, nevertheless, the science behind this type of decision does a great job, while we can't affirm that a certain mental age is sufficient to make political decisions, we try to create bounds by estimating this age to have enough confidence in population's decisions, that is to say, yeah sure there should be some kids that would be more mature than 50 years old people, but this excpetion is too small to be considered for a greater generalization, and guess what, it would be incredibly complicated to verify this, I mean to know if someone is mature enough you should know him for at least several weeks, whould would do this work, we can't even trust families or education stafff to certify this since they could have some influence in children to vote as adults wish, so yeah it's just not realizable, and a minimum bound should be established, and it depends on the country and its conception of it, for example it's only 16 in germany while the full legal responablility is reached at 18. for me, there should be not only a a lower bound, but also an upper one, for old people, even without talking about mentally ill people, they're still problematic, because their votes would only follow their conception of things, but that's something that constantly changes, and once you reached the retirement age, all the major economic and other important parameters wouldn't be important for you anymore, you would rather your values, to exemplify, in France, Macron won the presidential elections, and in his program, he wanted to increase the minimum retirement age from 62 to 65, unsurprisingly, the major voting population in france is the oldest one, otherwise why someone would choose someone proposing such a program, again, there are surely old people who are still interested in societal trends, even after retiring, but their share is also too small to be taken in consideration as votes that indeed reflect the global population's opinion

OakTownA

@theinfectedmaster

" I don't believe in being too young to do anything "

So you think it's fine for 1 year olds to get drunk or drive a car?

Eliminating a voting age means that those with the most children will tend to win elections, as the parents will likely vote for their children. If anything, it should be increased, as the brain is not fully developed until about 25. The last areas to develop help people make rational decisions, which is important when it comes to voting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

theinfectedmaster

@OakTownA There should be a height restriction for when people can drink alcohol. I don't think their should be an age restriction do to the fact that there is gigantism. The reason I say this is because it would be bad to give a person with severe dwarfism alcohol.

theinfectedmaster

@OakTownA A person doesn't have to have a fully developed brain when making good decisions voting. Our cognitive capacity typically reaches adult levels around 14-16.

OakTownA

@theinfectedmaster

"There should be a height restriction for when people can drink alcohol. I don't think their should be an age restriction do to the fact that there is gigantism. The reason I say this is because it would be bad to give a person with severe dwarfism alcohol."

Nice non sequitur. There's a big difference in development between an adult with gigantism or dwarfism and a child, regardless of height. Alcohol consumption before the age of 15 can adversely affect the development of the child's organs, including the brain, liver, and bones.

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/should-my-child-drink-alcohol/

Heavy or frequent drinking in children under 15 results in a decrease in the size of the child's hippocampus and prefrontal lobe of the brain.

https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles/F_I/Information-for-parents-alcohol-and-the-developing-brain

It can also increase the risk of cirrhosis and liver cancer, seizures, vitamin deficiencies, memory loss, and heart and central nervous system damage.

https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/Patients-Families/Health-Library/HealthDocNew/Kids-and-Alcohol

https://www.poison.org/articles/alcohol-a-dangerous-poison-for-children

There is not a different risk in adults who consume alcohol based solely on the person's height.

"Our cognitive capacity typically reaches adult levels around 14-16."

It's usually 16, but, yes, this is true. However, there is not a universally accepted way to measure cognitive capacities or psychosocial maturity. Also, psychosocial maturity occurs years later than cognitive capacity, usually around 25. As psychosocial maturity traits include impulse control, future orientation, and resistance to peer influence, among others, which are very relevant to voting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6551607/

No voting age means that new born infants who just begun to develop the basics of language and communication should be able to vote. You seem to think that anyone can do anything at any age. This is demonstrably not true.

Sonofason

theinfectedmaster said:

@Sonofason I honestly don't think there should be a voting age because everyone's mental age is different at different ages. I don't believe in being too young to do anything

Maybe you're right, perhaps age shouldn't have anything to do with it.  Perhaps there should be a test on American History and the Constitution of the United States.  You don't pass the test, then you don't vote.

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: No. Why is this even a debate.

People under 18 have no reason to vote. They are still controlled by their emotions, have never actually had a life, and are still in school. Voting should be a thing that only wise people should partake in. People under 18 are not wise.

OakTownA

@Sonofason

" Perhaps there should be a test on American History and the Constitution of the United States.  You don't pass the test, then you don't vote."

You mean a literacy test? Like the kind that were banned in 1965 because they were racist?

MichaelElpers

@OakTownA ;

A literacy test was racist because blacks weren't allowed to have the same education, today that's not true so I wouldn't say that is racist anymore.

Answering the question to whether iq or educational standards should be required is difficult for me to answer as there isn't a fool proof to measure that especially without potential corruption being part of the standard. This is why I think age is in place. It's seen as a reasonable way to measure that a person has a high level of understanding of what they are voting for without large discrimination.

I heard someone in college ask "why doesn't the government just print money and hand it out to everyone".  In my opinion they shouldn't have a vote but I don't see an easy way to exclude them.

Things I think we could improve on:

1. You should only get a vote if you pay taxes (assuming everyone has equal opportunity to participate).

2. No one in government positions should be allowed to vote...you shouldn't be allowed to vote to increase your own power.

3. In should be substantially easier for congress to decrease the size of government than to increase its size or regulatory power.

OakTownA

@MichaelElpers

"A literacy test was racist because blacks weren't allowed to have the same education, today"

That's a fair point. I will need to think about that more.

"This is why I think age is in place. It's seen as a reasonable way to measure that a person has a high level of understanding of what they are voting for without large discrimination."

Agreed.

"1. You should only get a vote if you pay taxes (assuming everyone has equal opportunity to participate)."

What kind of taxes? Almost everyone pays some sort of tax, including those that are under age (sales tax, for example).

"2. No one in government positions should be allowed to vote...you shouldn't be allowed to vote to increase your own power."

Allowed to vote at all, or allowed to vote for themselves? Regardless, you may be onto something here.

"3. In should be substantially easier for congress to decrease the size of government than to increase its size or regulatory power."

This seems like a non sequitur, as the topic at hand is voting age.

MichaelElpers

@OakTownA ;

1. Well I guess it depends on the way a nation's taxes are set up, but at a minimum the taxes citizens are expected to pay in the u.s with a job: income, sales, social security. If you are not contributing to the system I do not see why you should get to vote how the money is spent.

2.  I don't think they should be able to vote at all.

3. More of opinion. I agree it is slightly off topic of this thread.

Sonofason

OakTownA said:

@Sonofason

" Perhaps there should be a test on American History and the Constitution of the United States.  You don't pass the test, then you don't vote."

You mean a literacy test? Like the kind that were banned in 1965 because they were racist?

Its not my fault if some ethnic group cant read and write.  Perhaps they should stop doing drugs, and do their homework.

OakTownA

@MichaelElpers

"Well I guess it depends on the way a nation's taxes are set up, but at a minimum the taxes citizens are expected to pay in the u.s with a job: income, sales, social security. If you are not contributing to the system I do not see why you should get to vote how the money is spent."

I see what you are saying here, and I think it is important to remember that almost everyone pays some sort of taxes. Would you have an age restriction as well? Like many people, I entered the work force as a teen, and payed taxes. Should a 15-17 year old be able to vote? I was laid off at the beginning of 2020, and received unemployment benefits. Taxes were/are taken out of that check. Food for thought.

" I don't think they should be able to vote at all."

My initial response is to agree with you. I'm going to think about this, as you may be onto something here. It's nice to see we can agree on something!

theinfectedmaster

@OakTownA You realize a person's experiences in life are what up a person's maturity level though, which the amount of them varies from person to person.

OakTownA

@theinfectedmaster

Does experience contribute to a person's maturity level? Yes. Is it the only or primary contribution? No. The primary contribution to maturity is brain development, which is not complete until a person is in their 20's. A 10 year old can live a life time of experiences, but their maturity level will still be around that of a 10-13 year old due to brain development.

Nomenclature

Argument Topic: Nope

The age should remain the same. It's voting which should be abolished, because it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference one way or the other. In no way is the present system conducive to any type of choice about how society organises itself or functions. At least, not in places like America and most of Europe.

Dee

Debate topic : American infants should be allowed vote in USA 

I actually think this should apply in the USA as 3 year  old Americans surely cannot be as idiotic as parents who voted the brain dead turd Trump into office 

jack

theinfectedmaster said

Should the voting age be abolished?

Hello the:

Sure..  If you can punch a hole in some paper, or pick up a pencil, your vote is important. 

Oh, I don't think many 3 or 4 year olds are gonna wanna vote, but if they do, they oughta be allowed.

excon

theinfectedmaster

@OakTownA The reason I haven't believed that a person's brain development defines maturity is simply because a 3 year old has a similar brain structure to that of an adult's.

jack

theinfectedmaster said:

The reason I haven't believed that a person's brain development defines maturity is simply because a 3 year old has a similar brain structure to that of an adult's.

Hello the:

Think of your brain as a structure that houses a supercomputer sans data.  It has potential to process boatloads of data..  But, without data, it cant do anything..  Learning how to upload data fast is what it's all about. So, it oughtn't be surprising that 3 year old brain doesn't have the data that a 10 year old brain does... 

In this case, size doesn't matter..

excon

theinfectedmaster

@jack Does it mean that a 3 year oldest brain functions differently, and that it isn't developed enough to be able to vote?

MayCaesar

This would simply result in children voting the same way as their parents, giving disproportional shares of votes to families with a large number of children. Which is grounded in *some* reason, but I do not think that this outcome is what you had in mind.

Assuming, on the other hand, that a vote is an expression of one's preference, we run into serious logical issues. In what sense can a 1 month old infant have a preference between the Republican and the Democratic party? There is a reason such infants have legal guardians acting on their behalf, rather than doing everything themselves. A 1 month old would have a hard time working a full-time job to support himself, shopping for groceries, cleaning his house, et cetera.

Regarding maturity, do you seriously think that a creature that came out of a womb yesterday can be as mature as a 30 year old adult? What is your definition of "maturity"?

theinfectedmaster

@MayCaesar How you behave, and your cognitive ability to be be able to do stuff?

OakTownA

@theinfectedmaster

"Does it mean that a 3 year oldest brain functions differently, and that it isn't developed enough to be able to vote"

Yes; that's exactly what that means. A 3 year old and a 23 year old's brains may look similar, but the neural connections have not completely formed in the 3 year old, especially in the frontal lobe, which is the reasoning center or the brain.