Should We Tolerate Bigotry?

anarchist100

You are obligated to respond to their bigotry with counter arguments, if you're going to assert that they're wrong.

If you can't do that then you have no way of knowing that they're wrong and should not say anything on the matter.

Swolliw

@anarchist100

You are obligated to respond to their bigotry with counter arguments

Why should we even respond to what are now, offensive, ill-gotten and out-of-date remarks. I think that the days of arguing the toss are well behind us now and the best we can do with these thugs is simply ignore them....they may just get the message that society won't accept their vile attitudes.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hate is tricky, you don't want to spread it. Depends upon the platform.

@Swolliw

"it is a deliberate tactic designed to generate outrage and attract more viewers to misinformation and hate." CCDH  Imran Ahmed Dr Linda Papadopoulos

https://counterhate.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Dont-Feed-the-Trolls.pdf

On a small website like debateisland, I think it is fine to argue with trolls at least a little. On a large platform like twitter all a person is doing is helping the troll. When in doubt prebunk, make a new post, post lots of high quality information, and ignore the haters.

For example on transgenders, gender is on a spectrum and biological sex is bimodal.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-biological-sex/

Gender affirming care can save lives. Delaying treatment can be costly exacerbating eating disorder symptoms, psychological distress, and suicidality.

https://time.com/6128131/gender-affirming-hormone-therapy-study/

I think many of the haters are just plain ignorant, thought not all, some are willfully ignorant or worse engage in conspiratorial thinking.

Bogan

People who do not tolerate bigotry are intolerant bigots.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No, being intolerant of bigots is just fine.

@Bogan

Imagine the most bigoted person ever. Being intolerant of this epic bigot would not be the same as the bigot being cruel to minoritized groups.

Swolliw

@Bogan
https://debateisland.com/discussion/8822/should-we-tolerate-bigotry-in-schools

jack

Swolliw said:

Should We Tolerate Bigotry?

... if we simply ignore these undesirable, anti-social misfits, just like a dog t**d lying in the gutter, they will just dry up and disappear, never to return again and decent, civilized society will be that much better off for it. 

Hello S:

Certainly, we can't, nor SHOULD we, attack what's in a mans head.  But, we SHOULD, with all the vigor we can muster, attack what he DOES about it..

excon

just_sayin

@Swolliw
I think that you will find that transgender people are not "pushing" their ways onto anyone. They are certainly creating public awareness, and so they should after being shunned and ridiculed by ignorant, arrogant thugs for so long. They are perfectly normal human beings and we live in an age where we tolerate and accept those who live in minority groups.

I can certainly agree that transgender persons have endured discrimination.  That can not be condoned.  I think it would be untruthful to say that transgender extremism has not been "pushed" onto anyone, though.  Let me site a few examples:

1) hiding a child's questioning and gender identity switch from parents at school.  A child can't even be given an aspirin without parental notification.  Yet, many school districts, in the name of transgenderism have violated the trust between parents and schools.  It is essential that schools notify parents of psychological changes in their child, unless there is a direct threat to the child.  Florida was right in passing its parental rights law.  This was inaccurately called the "don't say gay" law, even though it doesn't do that.  The word gay appears 0 times in the bill, but the words "parent" and "parental" appear 35 times.  Misrepresenting opposing views is also a common occurrence of those pushing a transgender agenda.

2) defending sexually explicit books because they are "transgender".  There have been lots of attacks on parents who have wanted sexually explicit books removed from schools, with transgender extremists attempting to frame the debate as silencing transgender views, rather than acknowledging the actual complaints of the parents.  For instance, the most common book that parents have called to be banned from public schools is Gender Queer.  In this book, it contains anime style depictions of an underage character performing oral sex on an erect penis, an image of ancient Roman naked man holding the naked manhood of a male that is not yet a man, bloody mensuration, and men in bed having sex with each other.  The images are so graphic that news sites don't show them for concern of being accused of kiddie porn.  Yet, transgender extremists have defended the book and claimed it was all about hate for transgenders.  

3) lying about transgender issues and targeting parents who speak out.  The superintendent in Loudoun county VA was fired after a grand jury found the school system was responsible for a double sexual assault case by a student who on the day of one assault said she identified as a female.  Loudoun county hid the sexual assaults, even transferring the assailant to another school where she assaulted another female.  Loudoun enacted a bathroom policy that allows transgenders to choose their restroom.  When the transgender bathroom issue came up at a school board meeting, the board lied about the incident in the bathroom and even arrested the father whose daughter had been sexually assaulted because he wanted to speak and got vocal about it.  The propaganda media tried hard to bury the assailant's transgender status and claimed that transgenderism had nothing to do with the sexual assault.  And while it is true that the assailant had a prior sexual relationship with the girl, the assailant himself appealed to his transgenderism to explain why it seemed he was trying to force a girl to have oral sex with him.  From the Washington Post:

The defendant initially told detectives the second sexual act did not occur, but later said it may have happened briefly and accidentally when a knee-length skirt he was wearing got caught on his watch as the pair were fumbling around in the bathroom stall.

4) Transvestite shows and story hour - I think the controversy where Kirk Cameron was not allowed to read his children's book, while the same library permitted a transvestite reading hour shows a deliberate "pushing" of an agenda.  It is hard to deny that one agenda was pushed and another was denied access.

5) Pushing for puberty blockers and transition surgery for children.  Even the language being pushed is biased as it is often framed as "gender affirming care" rather than "child bodily mutilation".  The science behind the issue has been buried and weak studies with small sampling sizes and whose results were not reproduced are sited.  Countries with very liberal views toward transgenderism such as Sweden, Finland, England, and France have changed their stances on surgery and puberty blockers for children due to the science and have abandoned the "gender affirming" model, to one that protects children from mutilation and puberty blockers which can cause stroke, heart attacks, sterility, bone density issues, and cognitive development issues.  Even the New York Times has mentioned the growing evidence that puberty blockers for gender dysphoria is not a good idea.  
 

Bogan

If a person wants to walk around with a teapot on his or her head, there is nothing to stop them.  It is a free country and it is not illegal.    But if they do walk around with teapots on their heads, they should not be surprised if normal people who think that walking around with a teapot on your head is utterly stu-pid,  keep away from them.     There is nothing wrong with free people coming to the conclusion that those people who walk around with teapots on their heads have serious mental problems.    There is nothing wrong with a free people to try and keep teapot wearers at arms length, to discriminate against them in many ways because they think they are unbalanced.      Normal people will also vehemently object to teachers walking around with teapots on their heads as they consider such behaviour inappropriate in schools.  And they will certainly object if teachers with teapots on their heads try to teach their kids that walking around with a teapot on your head is normal and fashionable. 

Swolliw

@Dreamer

Being intolerant of this epic bigot would not be the same as the bigot being cruel to minoritized groups.

Good point, and the reason I singled out that tasteless remark is that bigots will concoct the most bizarre excuses and false reasonings to justify a stance that they consider to be right and normal. And the other tactic of course, is to attack anyone who dares question their behaviour and distorted ideals by throwing the guilt on that person.

https://debateisland.com/discussion/8822/should-we-tolerate-bigotry-in-schools

Bogan

@Dreamer ;   For example on transgenders, gender is on a spectrum and biological sex is bimodal.

Wrong, biological sex is objective reality.       The idea that people have multiple sexes or no sex at all is a social construct invented by the intellectually challenged.  probably by the same academics who do not teach STEM courses in universities because they are not smart enough?    Perhaps you should remember Voltaire's dictum that "those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What about intersex people?

@Bogan

"Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".[1][2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

I wonder how that fits into your model of objective reality?

Bogan

@Dreamer ; I wonder how that fits into your model of objective reality?

Too easy.      Because these unfortunate people are the results of genetics gone wrong.    With 8 billion people on planet Earth, at least two people (or four) have two functioning heads on a single body.     Are you seriously claiming that such a circumstance should be considered as normal for human beings?     And are you suggesting that all languages on earth remove singular pronouns from their languages because two individuals have two heads ,and therefore it is inappropriate to talk in singular pronouns? 

  

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Imagine the most bigoted person ever. Being intolerant of this epic bigot would not be the same as the bigot being cruel to minoritized groups.

I Implicit in this judgement is the assumption that the most bigoted person ever is somehow fundamentally a less worthy human being than a member of a minoritized group. But does this assumption hold? What does it even mean to be a "more" or a "less" worthy human being? Worthy to whom?

In my eyes, someone being cruel to my friends is doing a much more nasty thing than someone being cruel to someone I do not know: my friends are worth much more to me. But I do not see how anyone can claim that someone is worth more than someone else objectively. "Worthiness" itself is a subjective evaluation metric, after all.

Intolerance of anyone has pretty significant psychological effects on the person. In many ways, for instance, bullies are the most miserable people at high school: they are caught in the circle of having to treat others more and more like trash in order to compensate for their increasing level of insecurity. I would argue that a bully is in a much worse state than the bully's victim.
If you are intolerant of the most epic bigot in the world, I imagine that your psychology is similarly affected to someone who is intolerant, say, of homosexual people. You pick a target and unleash your primal rage on him/her/them, and that rage starts consuming your soul, for the lack of the better term. You see examples of this all over this very website, of the people (like the OP) who have turned into anti-social psychopaths because hatred of a particular individual or group of individuals has become a focus of their life, their addiction, their drug. No matter what they do, no matter where they go and no matter who they spend time with, they cannot help but constantly think about how much they hate someone - naturally, they believe that hatred to be justified, but it consumes them all the same.

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

I don't understand the intersex argument.  Intersex is considered to be an anomaly and can be objectively verified through science. Just because intersex people exist doesn't mean others who are not can use the anomaly case to justify something they are not.

For example it would be weird for someone with 10 fingers to say they indeed have 11 just because people with that anomaly exist.

Swolliw

@Bogan

Because these unfortunate people are the results of genetics gone wrong. 

And those are your negative, antisocial constructs....talk about hypocritical...huh.

Let's just use one of your lame tactics here shall we? Just for fun. Now let me think....oh yes, I'll use the "blanket coverage" tactic......

The nature of genetics is that every one of us has mutated genes so therefore we are all intersex transgenders.

Bogan

Here are the people that you support, Swallow.   I am glad that they are on your side and not mine.

Barnardot

@Bogan
so what are you trying to say about those people any way and what’s wrong with them any way. So in the end it just shows that bogins are are such bigoted tards that they judge people by a photo.

Dee

@Bogan

Here are the people that you support, Swallow.   I am glad that they are on your side and not mine.

Here are the people that you support, Bogend .   I am glad that they are on your side and not mine.

John_C_87

I would like to point out that both exhibits are of people who are afraid of mismanagement and are addressing a grievance in search of the more perfect union to established justice.

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: hate speech is free speech

@Swolliw

part 1: 

The DSM 3 characterizes a mental disorder as:

""statistically unexpectable distress or disability." 

The DSM 4 characterizes a mental disorder as:

 

"mental disorders are associated with distress, disability, or a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom."

The DSM 5 characterizes a mental disorder as:

"A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or development processes underlying mental functioning."

Transgenderism has all the trade marks of a mental disorder including:

* Causing distress in a person - as with their gender

* Trannies are 19 times more likely to commit suicide https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/tucker-debunks-claim-that-transgender-surgery-prevents-suicide-19-times-more-likely-to-kill-themselves/ You may say "but they are killing themselves because they are oppressed" if that was true then trans suicide rates should be falling - but that isn't the case.

* Its a delusion. Gender is decided by your 23rd chromosome pair; if you get xy then you're a male, xx and you're a female. This is impossible to change.

As you can see, transgender people are mentally ill and they need our help. Gender reassignment surgery has been proven to not help. Performing Gender reassignment surgery on a transgender is like performing a liposuction on an anorexic. It doesn't help.

part 2:

Even if I'm wrong part about part 2, biggotry should still be tolerated because "hate speech" is free speech. The 1st ammendment was made to protect unpopular ideas from censorship - although it does also protect popular ideas. We all have our opinions and they should tolerated no matter how or hateful they may seem.