Doest Google and Facebook = the biggest privacy threats in existence?

MayCaesar

I am going to make three different general points in my response. First, I will steelman the case against privacy on these platforms and, furthermore, explain why lack of privacy on them is a feature and not a bug. Second, I will describe why, in my view, lack of privacy is not nearly as problematic as many people think; for the vast majority of people it should not be a concern at all. Finally, I will elaborate on the subset of cases in which I think this lack of privacy may actually constitute a problem - none of us and none of most of who we know fall here, but globally quite a few people do.

1. One of the biggest appeals of social media platforms such as Facebook is that the user can quickly find a lot of his/her friends, relatives, acquaintances and colleagues there. The main platform that I personally use is Whatsapp, owned by Meta (aka Facebook), and in order to add someone there, I have to know their smartphone number (sometimes even that is not enough, as they may have a different number associated with their Whasapp account) - so, in practice, the way I add people to Whatsapp is by adding each other's contacts in person and then messaging each other. However, recently I met quite a few people whose preferred platform was Instagram instead (owned by the same company) - and once I created my account there, I could instantly find 20+ people who I already knew there and add them. This would not have been possible with stricter privacy, if every user's data was hidden from everyone else.

Other types of platforms, such as Youtube or Google Search or Amazon, share user data with company affiliates to provide targeted ads or search results. Those who dislike it are free to ignore this: no one forces an Amazon user to look at the "suggested products", and Google Search always lets you find what you really are looking for - you can always skim through the first search page and go to the second one, where all the results are. And those who like it get exactly what they need: they go to Youtube and see a lot of suggested videos similar to what they have seen before and do not need to manually search for them. For that matter, the machine learning algorithms at use there are incredibly advanced, and I have often been surprised by the suggestions that seemed completely disconnected from my previous viewing history, yet hit the mark at exactly the right moment. The craziest instance of this kind was me coming home after getting rejected by the woman of my dreams, opening Youtube and seeing a "why rejection is a good thing" video (I had not viewed videos with any connection to this topic for months) - it is no magic, just an incredibly good suggestion model.

Now, imagine the world in which user data is not broadcasted across the Internet - in fact, we were living in this world not so far back. Remember those times when, to invite people to a party, you had to actually call them on the phone? Especially back when stationary phones were more common and you could call someone multiple times without them picking up as they were away? If it was a large party, you could spend an entire day (or two) just calling people.

Now? I want to check out a new restaurant and see if anyone wants to come with me - I create a group on Whatsapp, drop a few friends' names in there and make an announcement. Typically a couple of hours later, without any further action on my part, I already know who is coming. Yes, in some sense everyone's privacy here has been violated. But that is kind of the point.

2.  Now, ignoring the positive effects of lack of privacy, negative effects must also be addressed. Privacy is comfort and control, it is a blanket you can wrap yourself around and hide from the undesirable elements of the world. Every human has a need in it.

Privacy, however, can be of many different kinds. Hiding your name from a stranger you randomly met might not have much utility; hiding your name from a totalitarian government that you have taken action against has much more of it. How useful is the privacy we are talking about here?

First of all, as is important to emphasize, no one forces anyone to use these private platforms. You can live and function very well without Google and Facebook altogether. You can always find other ways to communicate with those you want to keep in touch with. You do not even need a smartphone (I did not have one until 4 years ago), you can just exchange encrypted SMS-messages with the basic cell phone. And while the objection that you have made that your data still can get out into the world through the people you know who use those platforms and share it with the world, it really is on them, no? If you have a friend who, without getting your permission, writes your bio on their Facebook wall, then, perhaps, you should reconsider who you befriend. This kind of thing can happen outside the Internet just as easily: maybe you have a journalist friend who will publish your bio as a newspaper article, or perhaps you have a Russian friend who will leak your information to the Russian authorities so they view you as a potential spy recruit. This is a human issue, not a platform issue.

Now, what user data are we actually talking about here? What may be shared is your browsing history (which is limited to whatever platform you are using anyway: that is, Youtube can only collect your Youtube browsing history), your contacts (which you are not obliged to provide on most platforms), your name (again, you can use a nickname)... Sounds pretty harmless, and no one can do much with that information to harm you in any way. More sensitive data such as your SSN or credit card numbers is unshareable by law in all jurisdictions familiar to me, and all the platforms make it extremely clear that they will keep this data encrypted and confidential - if they do violate it, they will be a subject to debilitating lawsuits. All in all, I do not see a problem with any of that. 

3. There, however, is one type of cases in which violations of individual privacy of this kind can lead to severe consequences for the individual - and that is when the data that is shared with the world endangers its source. For instance, imagine a Chinese dissident who makes anonymous posts on Facebook criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. If Facebook knows the dissident's identity and leaks it out and then the CCP finds it, the Chinese dissident will be arrested and sent to jail. Unfortunately, given how politicized these platforms are, and especially how eager authoritarian governments all around the world are to buy their access to the user data there, this kind of thing seems to happen increasingly often.

Unfortunately, given the financial appeal of the Chinese, Russian, Saudi Arabian and other such markets, there is little that can be done to prevent these companies from doing this, short of decisive legal action (that, in practice, would be sweeping and infringe on the rights of both all users of these platforms and their owners). Hence it is recommended for anyone fearing for their life and preferring to keep as much of their data private as possible to refrain from discussing politics on these platforms. A Chinese dissident can use Facebook to find like-minded individuals, but then interact with them through more secure channels, not letting Facebook know of his/her political activities. In the extreme cases, there are ways to completely change one's identity: many North Korean refugees in the US go through a special program that completely erases the records of their past from as many databases as possible, and I believe that they even sometimes undergo surgeries to make visual identification impossible as well. The modern world still offers this luxury, although it will become increasingly difficult to do so as the technology moves forward.

To summarize, I do not think that "threat" is the right word to characterize lack of privacy in the context we are talking about here, and the context in which it does become a threat is one which affects a tiny minority of people and which can be avoided by taking certain precautions. Suffice to say, if I were to go against the CCP guns blazing, I would not look for followers on WeChat or make public provocative posts on Twitter under my real name.

John_C_87

@ZeusAres42

No there is not threat to privacy created by a computer it is a broadcast device and privacy is and was the responsibility of the operator. You are asking does a company have a liability when making a promise or false statement it cannot fulfill in whole truth. Computers from the beginnings of their conception were not a device of security but rather convenience and speed. Would you pay additional rent to live in a location which reduces your exposure to Wi-Fi?

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

You made some good point that I agree with and some others that not so much. I will get back to this. Anyway, I posting as I found it interesting that the site https://brax.me/geo/ was able to find the exact road that I live on. This is on a browser that I have not used for some years, I also used a VPN, and changed the user agent string. But that apparently didn't matter.

ZeusAres42

@ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

You made some good point that I agree with and some others that not so much. I will get back to this. Anyway, I posting as I found it interesting that the site https://brax.me/geo/ was able to find the exact road that I live on. This is on a browser that I have not used for some years, I also used a VPN, and changed the user agent string. But that apparently didn't matter.

Mind you that could be due to the VPN I was using being useless. It doesn't even have a kill switch for instance. Other alternatives I can think of is due to fingerprints being stored from past years although that seems unlikely considering these are AI's doing this analytical stuff.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

Actually, disregard that if you wish. What happened was that I had WiFi access enabled on my adapter settings. Disabling it saves that issue.

ZeusAres42

Tbh now, I do wonder if this guy is trying to blow things out of proportion. Possibly because he wants to sell his own VPN for almost 90$. The video was published about two years ago, and the fact is that there are workarounds these issues anyway if one take the time to learn about how this all works. That being said, I still agree that browser isolation is a good technique and ofc you don't need a vpn to do this.

John_C_87

The basic argument over privacy on any computer is still nonsense Facebook, Google makes no difference. We are purchasing a broadcasting device then complaining about who can listen to your broadcast as a computer has always been impossible to secure, period.  We rent inscription and transcriptions as they are only a puzzle to be solved.

If it is not obvious that people are the cause of violators of privacy by now it never will be. By the way the biggest loss of privacy to date as fact is legislation of law … Specifically Abortion Law.

John_C_87

My apologies did not know this debate was closed to fact and only included suggested exposures to loss of privacy. Venting is cool.........

BonitaVanhooser

I found more privacy threats while using Facebook as a user. However, Google products like Firebase or Google Cloud are also full of security violations. According to a few reports, Google tracked users' data on applications that developers build by using Firebase. 

Dee

Doest Google and Facebook = the biggest privacy threats in existence?

Privacy went for most many years ago. I have a government ID card every bit of relevant information is on this from taxation,  drivers license, medical record etc, etc,  the card itself to me is so convenient as it allows me instant access to any service I require which saves so much trouble

I think far to many people get paranoid regards so called invasions of privacy,mostly it's just different companies targeting you for specific goods you showed interest in 

Our mobile phones and I-pads are an incredible piece of technology, and , it's incredible how they have totally changed societies, many years ago I remember ringing my wife from a phone box on Inis Mór the largest of the Aran islands,  off the coast of Galway; 
the phone operator was asking me to place anther coin in the slot and press button B to connect to the mainland as the spray from the waves smashed against the phone booth 

In my wildest dreams did I think we would have technology like this, kids and younger adults nowadays would I think suffer depression or worse if this technology was taken away overnight , the worst aspect of this technology is that it's bred incredible impatience in people, only last week I was ordering books online and muttering at the screen "will you ever  hurry to f---k up" 

Have we got more than we lost with this technology?

John_C_87

Have we got more than we lost with this technology?
Yes...

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: They are child's play compared to one monopoly you've probably never heard of

Yes, the data collection performed by facebook and google is downright satanic and should be stopped. But they are child's play compared to what BlackRock does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAIcet1mQwg

Having 10 trillion worth in assets. BlackRock literally owns almost the entire world market. All of the mainstream media(even Fox), all the pharma companies, your house(probably), country governments, etc. They are the guys behind ESG scores - the reason why nearly every big company has gone woke. This is probably the closest thing the world has to a megacorporation(maybe it is a megacorporation). The federal reserve hired BlackRock to protect their assets from Covid. This company is like something out of a nightmarish fever dream of Alex Jones, I cannot put it into words.