Are Jews a race?

JulesKorngold

A DNA test can indicate whether an individual has Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, but it cannot determine one's "Jewish roots" in a religious or cultural sense. The Jewish identity is a complex mix of religious, cultural, and genetic factors, and DNA testing can only provide limited information on a person's ancestry. In some cases, individuals with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry may not identify as Jewish in a cultural or religious sense, while others who do not have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry may still identify as Jewish based on cultural or religious factors.

jack

Dee said:

isn't science remarkable 

Hello

It is:

https://www.myheritage.com/dna/ethnicity/intro/D9R7CP1FCT9JGSRI5T87ACI8E1KMGH1LEKRNKM9BCDMNKQ3GE9JK4LAC6HD38R25F5SJ4DRPE50KUQ3ACL878JI2CD732GR2ED732MG?utm

Can your blood tell if you're a Catholic , Protestant, Atheist , Buddhist , Satanist , Pagan , Flat earther ??  Nahh...  But, MINE can.  Do Jews LOOK like other Jews?  They DO.

Do those two things taken together make Jews a race??   Uhhh, YEAH!

excon

jack

Dee said:

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race.

Hello hater:

Lemme ask you this.  What is the reason Jewishness is detected by DNA?   It means SOMETHING, no?  Do you think,

1)   Scientifically speaking, it CAN'T be done,

2)   Jews are lying,

3)   the DNA labs are lying,

4)   Ok, they DO detect Jewishness, but it means NOTHING.

Why do you think Jews look alike?

1)   They DON'T look alike,

2)   Jews are lying

3)   Ok, they DO look alike, but it means NOTHING.

excon

Nomenclature

@jack

Lemme ask you this.  What is the reason Jewishness is detected by DNA?

Because it can't be, this has been explained to you thousands of times, and you're a horribly dishonest scumbag who simply ignores all efforts at reason. 

The fact that you have linked that joke of a test again, after I showed you that 100 percent of online reviewers reported the company as a scam, shows the true depth of your immaturity.

Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent

Department of Genetics, Program for History and Philosophy of Science, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Israel.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2014.00462/full

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

A DNA test can indicate whether an individual has Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry

Firstly, no it can't. I have explained this to you several times already.

Secondly, the Ashkenazis are converts to the Jewish religion who, until approximately 500 years ago, were Muslims. Their DNA doesn't become Jewish just because they converted to a different religion. It is just insane that you, or anybody else, actually believes this.

DNA ancestry tests branded 'meaningless'

Commercial DNA tests that claim to tell people whether they are related to Richard III or descended from the Vikings are no more than "genetic astrology", scientists have warned.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9912822/DNA-ancestry-tests-branded-meaningless.html

Dee

@jack

Hi Hater , wonder what Jews say on the matter ........

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

That's the piece you ignored hater

Dee

@JulesKorngold


Sorry Cornfed Jews don't agree with you ......

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

Dee

@JulesKorngold


Sorry Cornfed Jews don't agree with you ......

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

jack

Hello haters:

I've got scientists too.  Check this out. 

It was recently shown that the genetic distinction between self-identified Ashkenazi Jewish and non-Jewish individuals is a prominent component of genome-wide patterns of genetic variation in European Americans. No study however has yet assessed how accurately self-identified (Ashkenazi) Jewish ancestry can be inferred from genomic information, nor whether the degree of Jewish ancestry can be inferred among individuals with fewer than four Jewish grandparents.

Results

Using a principal components analysis, we found that the individuals with full Jewish ancestry formed a clearly distinct cluster from those individuals with no Jewish ancestry. Using the position on the first principal component axis, every single individual with self-reported full Jewish ancestry had a higher score than any individual with no Jewish ancestry.

Conclusions

Here we show that within Americans of European ancestry there is a perfect genetic corollary of Jewish ancestry which, in principle, would permit near perfect genetic inference of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry. We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks.

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb-2009-10-1-r7

Truly.  If you looked, there are TONS of websites CONFIRMING that Jewish DNA is real.  You'd have to be a rabid antisemite to choose only the sites you did..

excon

Dee

@jack

Poor Jack lets try to help you , see this woman below ? She's not actually a cow she thinks she is , she is mentally ill .....








See the Chinese man you guessed it he's a Jew , are you starting to get the picture that you may be slightly confused ?

Dee

@jack


Truly.  If you looked, there are TONS of websites CONFIRMING that Jewish DNA is real.  You'd have to be a rabid antisemite to choose only the sites you did..


Yet this is from a site that's 100 percent Jewish , you'd have to be a rabid fantasist to deny it .....

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Jewishness

Jewishness is determined by the person's self-identification, either culturally or religiously. It can also be determined by a person's maternal line, meaning that if their mother was Jewish, they would be considered Jewish, regardless of the religion they practice.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee
Race is ultimately an arbitrary term used by pseudo-scientists to justify racism and other artificial boundaries in society. But regardless...
Ethnicities(or tribes, if you want to call it that) do exist, and ethnicities can be connected through genetics or culture.
Jews constitute both of these categories. Firstly, there have been a wealth of genetic tests on Jews which have determined a common genetic root between Jewish populations and thus a genetic Ethnic connection.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23052947/#&gid=article-figures&pid=fig-1-uid-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Autosomal_DNA
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20531471/
Furthermore, the huge genetic similarities between different Jewish groups indicate a lack of intermixing and thus assimilation with local populations. Implying that Jews for most of history stayed relatively isolated from the rest of society, and thus preserved their culture. (I will not go into the technicalities of specific differences and similarities between Jewish groups due to time constraints. But most of them share a nearly identical culture, religion, and core belief system.)
Even Judaism describes Jews as being "children of Israel" or Yaakov, implying a genetic connection between Jews.
If you wish to make the argument that Judaism is a religion, rather than an ethnic group as people can convert to Judaism. You would be mistaken, those who convert to Judaism are not Jews, they are people of the Judaic faith. A person of Jewish religion, but not Jewish ethnicity. And throughout history, and especially modern history, Jews have been treated often as an ethnic rather than a religious group. When Hitler locked up Hebrews in gas chambers, he didn't care if they were atheists or Christians, they were Jews by ethnicity. And that is how[seen as an ethnic group] Jews are treated in most countries today.
Of course, you can always make the distinction between a Jew and a Hebrew, a Jew being a person adhering to Judaism, and a Hebrew being a descendent of Yaakov, but that is mostly semantics and word games.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

Etnicity cannot be detected by DNA 

Neither race nor ethnicity is detectable in the human genome
Please do a bit of basic research instead of doing your usual copy and pasting of opinion pieces from various ignorant pro Jewish websites

You obviously as usual ignored my piece from a Jewish website that supports my view but what would they know compared to a guy who admitted he cannot tell if 1+1 = 2 or maybe 3

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

Jewishness is determined by the person's self-identification, either culturally or religiously.

You are literally a moron. And not even an honest moron. A disingenuous, pathetic, deceitful moron.

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

Ethnicities(or tribes, if you want to call it that) do exist, and ethnicities can be connected through genetics or culture.

Your argument is a whopping great self-contradiction. The only shared culture Jews have is religious culture. 

Not only that, but any group which shares a common language is an ethnic group, so by the exact same false logic Muslims are an ethnic group.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Poor fellow is still wondering is 1+1 = 2 or maybe 3 , I think he's best working that out first before parroting pro Jewish propaganda 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee

Ethnicity cannot be detected by DNA 

The definition of ethnicity:
1a: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
Jews definitely constitute this as they tend to have the same religious, linguistic, and cultural origins.
Jews also fit the definition of a tribal ethnic group as they are all descended from the same ancestor.
The definition of a tribe:

1a: a social group composed chiefly of numerous families, clans, or generations having a shared ancestry and language

Since ethnicity can be defined as a common tribal origin, and a tribe can be defined as those sharing the same ancestry, then ethnicity can be detected by DNA.
Ethnicity = Tribe
Tribe = Shared Ancestry
Thus, Ethnicity = Shared Ancestry

You obviously as usual ignored my piece from a Jewish website

Jews are not a unique race(which, I agree, your website did state), and I never did say that. In fact, I ruled out race for any person in the first sentence of my argument, I'm sorry you didn't see that very obvious clarification I put.
The article also states that Jews have historically identified as their own unique people, and thus their own ethnic group. This supports my argument, thank you for the sourcing.
Most Jews(Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Mizrahi Jews, the main three Jewish sub-divisions) do have an extremely close genetic relationship and all look physiologically similar. This does not mean that they are a race though, it means they have a common genetic origin and are thus their own tribe or ethnic group. Jews also have a shared culture, whose ethics can be held even by Jews who are atheists or Christians.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Nomenclature

Your argument is a whopping great self-contradiction. The only shared culture Jews have is religious culture. 

Many cultural elements may be derived from religion, and that is true. However, Jews can maintain many cultural ethics and traditions regardless of their level of religion. For example, many atheist or secular Jews practice holidays such as Chanukah which aren't very religious but are cultural traditions nonetheless. Another example of a cultural tradition held by Jews that is independent of religion is that in Jewish culture, beards are considered attractive. Jews also share the same common ethic of hard work, study, and reading, along with valuing charity, which is maintained by most Jewish families regardless of religion.

Not only that, but any group which shares a common language is an ethnic group

That works in many cases, but not all. Both Croats and Serbs have the exact same language, except that they both use different alphabets. Despite this negligible difference(if a Croat and Serb were to speak with each other, they would understand each other), Croats and Serbs have been long known to hate each other(both committed genocide on each other) and view each other oftentimes as different ethnic groups. Both African Americans and Swedish Americans may speak the same common language. But they both consider each other different ethnic groups, as they have different cultural and genetic make-ups.
For Jews in particular, Hebrew people have almost always maintained the Hebrew language. Although it was isolated to religious sermons most often, it was still used consistently. Even diaspora 'languages' that arose, such as Yiddish and Ladino, weren't even languages in their own right as they had no proper grammar system and they were a group of words from two fundamentally different languages, Spanish and Hebrew.

Nomenclature

@jack

I've got scientists too.  Check this out.

No you don't you infuriatingly dense imbecile. You've linked a paper written by an author with a clear conflict of interest (i.e. he's Jewish), in a pay-for-publish open access journal, which Media Bias Fact Check reports:-

Have retracted numerous studies due to fake peer reviews. 

They have faced criticism for numerous retractions and a failed fact check. 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/biomed-central-bmc/

You're absolutely pathetic excon. If A group of Africans converts to Judaism in the 15th century and a group of Europeans also converts to Judaism at the same time, they don't magically develop identical DNA you pitifully idiotic dolt. I just don't understand how anybody can be so thick. Did your mother drop you on your head as a baby?

Nomenclature

@jack

I've got scientists too.  Check this out.

No you don't you infuriatingly dense imbecile. You've linked a paper written by an author with a clear conflict of interest (i.e. he's Jewish), in a pay-for-publish open access journal, which Media Bias Fact Check reports:-

Have retracted numerous studies due to fake peer reviews. 

They have faced criticism for numerous retractions and a failed fact check. 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/biomed-central-bmc/

You're absolutely pathetic excon. If a group of Africans converts to Judaism in the 15th century and a group of Europeans also converts to Judaism at the same time, they don't magically develop identical DNA you pitifully idiotic dolt. I just don't understand how anybody can be so thick. Did your mother drop you on your head as a baby?

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
Jews definitely constitute this as they tend to have the same religious, linguistic, and cultural origins.

So do Muslims for Christ's sake. They follow the same religion, speak Arabic and share the same religious culture, exactly like Jews. In fact, Muslims can be traced back to that particular region through the documented historical record, whereas Jews can't be. 

Jews are believers in Judaism. If you don't believe in Judaism then you're not a Jew, and it's that simple.

Nomenclature

Argument Topic: The Sophism In This Debate Is Absolutely Unreal!!

Jews who have ancestry in the Middle Eastern region have a particular genetic signature, but that signature isn't specific to Jews. It's also shared by Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. In other words: Muslims.

What Jewish researchers fallaciously claim is "Jewish DNA" is actually DNA specific to a particular region of the world, and has nothing to do with Jews.

The sheer brainlessness of proposing a DNA link between Jews becomes apparent if one applies just the simplest iota of common sense. Many tribes, groups and individuals have converted to Judaism over the centuries, but that clearly isn't going to change the structure of their DNA. Therefore, it is self-evidently true that what religious Jews claim to be genetic markers identifying Jewishness, are in actual fact genetic markers identifying a link to a particular geographical region. 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Nomenclature

They follow the same religion, speak Arabic and share the same religious culture, exactly like Jews.

Druze and Alawites both consider themselves to be Muslim, and they both speak Arabic. Yet they both consider themselves as separate ethnic groups due to different histories and cultures. Not all Jews are religious, and in fact, most Jews today identify as secular/atheist/agnostic, yet they are still Jews. Today they are also many other Jewish groups that identify as Jews but have converted to Christianity, such as Jews for Jesus. Today there are plenty of different ethnic groups that share the same religion and language, and yet are different. Such as the various different English-speaking and mainly Christian ethnic groups in the United States. Dutch Americans and Lebanese Maronite Americans are two different ethnic groups despite their common linguistic and religious connections.
Jews also have a culture apart from religion, many holidays, foods, songs, and music occurred outside of the scheme of religion. For example, Chanukah, a well-known Jewish holiday is not a religious holiday since it was not prescribed in the Torah, and thus constitutes a purely cultural holiday.
Muslims in Indonesia have an extremely different culture and way of life from a Bedouin living in Morocco, they also do not consider themselves the same ethnic group. What makes them different ethnic groups is their large different genetic makeup and their culture.
Furthermore, all ancient cultures ultimately stem from a sort of religion. The culture of Arabia is the result of a mix of Judaism and ancient Arabic Paganism(which ended up being Islam), and the culture of Persia is a mix of Shia Islam and Zoroastrianism. Many cultures of ethnic groups today can be derived from religion and thus are 'religious cultures'.
Jews are just as much of an ethnic group as Assyrians, or Persians, Arabs, or Greeks. All at one point in history was defined by religious cultures. Jews have had as much history or perhaps even more history than any other group in history, with our own nation-states. Jews have shared genetics with the ancient land of Israel, and thus this indicates the preservation of the culture of modern Jews to the ancient Hebrews. Meaning the Jews today are the same ethnic group as the ancient Hebrews 2000 or even 3000 years ago. All-in-all, Jews constitute an ethnic group as we have our own unique culture, language, religion, food, customs, holidays, genetic similarity, and national identity.

In fact, Muslims can be traced back to that particular region through the documented historical record, whereas Jews can't be. 

Laughably untrue, I already addressed this in a previous argument.
Jews can be traced as the descendants of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and partially the tribe of Levi. From this, Jews began to identify a unique religion, with the creation of the Talmud, Jews, and Judaism was created. From this point onwards, the history of the Jewish people was very well documented.
Following the destruction of the second temple the Romans expelled much of the local native Jewish population across the roman Empire. These migrations occurred gradually over the course of generations under Roman rule and until the Bar Kokhba revolt. Thus forming a diaspora population of Jews.
The Jewish diaspora is not some artificially constructed event. It is well documented, and it is simply illogical for 9 million people(the size of the Jewish population during roman times) to simply vanish off of the map. The extremely similar cultures, appearances, and ancestry among Jews that were separated over long differences are evidence of the common root of the Jewish people from Israel.
Here is a map of the documented initial routes of the Roman diaspora:

As stated previously, Jews can also be connected to the region through genetics as well. And the history of all Jews diaspora groups has been well documented for the most part.

Jews are believers in Judaism. If you don't believe in Judaism then you're not a Jew, and it's that simple.

Completely untrue, even by Jewish religious law, a person whose mother was Jewish will be Jewish throughout the rest of his/her life. Regardless of whether or not they convert to another religion.
Being a Jew is like having citizenship, akin to an ethnic group(which Jews are), you cannot convert from being a Jew. Furthermore, Jews throughout history have described themselves as a people and a nation. And have often been treated as such. And have maintained their cultural link with each other and with ancient times.
If you wanna go into semantics and claim that Jews are different from Hebrews, as Jews are Jews by religion and Hebrews are the ethnic group associated with Judaism. Then you are free to do so, however I already clarified this in my opening argument and we then would have nothing to discuss.
It's laughable to hear atheist gentiles preach to Jews about their ethnicity and religion. If Jews are not an ethnic group, but a religious group, then to what ethnicity do Jews belong to? How do you determine the ethnicity of a Jew? Furthermore, how do you determine the ethnicity of anyone for that matter?

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

Completely untrue, even by Jewish religious law, a person whose mother was Jewish will be Jewish throughout the rest of his/her life.

Obviously what I said is 100 percent true, and your objection is a staggering self-contradiction. Jewish religious law is not applicable to anybody except religious Jews.

In Christian religious law, God orders homosexuals should be put to death by the sword. Is that true also?

There is arguably more logic in your previous "1+1=3" argument than there is in this one.

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

Laughably untrue, I already addressed this in a previous argument. Jews can be traced as the descendants of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and partially the tribe of Levi.

It's completely true buddy, and I'm sorry that you appear to believe drawing arrows on a map constitutes some sort of evidence to the contrary.

The Invention of the Jewish People is a study of the historiography of the Jewish people by Shlomo Sand, Professor of History at Tel Aviv University. 

Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply did not happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Jewish diaspora is essentially a modern invention. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued until Christianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away try again .... this all from you an imbecile who admits truth is anything you say it is , at least you're following that dictate through by covering the site with your id-otic comments and saying they're true because you say so 


Etnicity cannot be detected by DNA 

Neither race nor ethnicity is detectable in the human genome
Please do a bit of basic research instead of doing your usual copy and pasting of opinion pieces from various ignorant pro Jewish websites

You obviously as usual ignored my piece from a Jewish website that supports my view but what would they know compared to a guy who admitted he cannot tell if 1+1 = 2 or maybe 3

jack

Dee said:

@MineSubCraftStarved

Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away try again ....

saying they're true because you say so 


Etnicity cannot be detected by DNA

Hello again, Dee:

You say that, but ignoring facts don't make them go away.. 

I SAY that because of that pesky DNA test I took..  You say it's fake.  But, if Jewish genes cannot be detected, HOW did they detect MINE?  You can't deny that they DID detect mine, because you've seen, with your own eyes, the results of my DNA test.  If what you say is true, MyHeritage.com, who has over 109,000,000 satisfied customers world wide, would have had to FAKE all of 'em? No? 

The math just isn't working out for me..   In case you missed it, lemme show it to you again.

https://www.myheritage.com/dna/ethnicity/intro/D9R7CP1FCT9JGSRI5T87ACI8E1KMGH1LEKRNKM9BCDMNKQ3GE9JK4LAC6HD38R25F5SJ4DRPE50KUQ3ACL878JI2CD732GR2ED732MG?utm

excon, Jew

Dee

@jack

Hello again, Dee:

Hello again fantasist

You say that, but ignoring facts don't make them go away..  

I SAY that because of that pesky DNA test I took.. 

The fact you were conned has hit you hard it seems , we're there tears?

Pesky is not quite the term I would use , how about fake ?

 You say it's fake

I do, is that not sort of obvious at this point?

.  But, if Jewish genes cannot be detected, HOW did they detect MINE?

Mummy the man in the 3 card monte  game told me he was honest why did he take my money?


 You can't deny that they DID detect mine, because you've seen, with your own eyes, the results of my DNA test.  

You cannot deny that my horoscope told me this morning I would be a billionaire before the year is out 

If what you say is true, MyHeritage.com, who has over 109,000,000 satisfied customers world wide, would have had to FAKE all of 'em? No?  

Incorrect,  just the test that can tell a chinaman that converted to Judaism that he  is now also a full blown genetic Jew , ya know just like you and Cornfed who think wearing a tiny ridiculous cap on your pointed heads and mentioning the Holocaust 15 times a day makes you both fully paid up Jews 

The math just isn't working out for me.. 


I know that you got fleeced and you feel b-tt hurt , why not meet up with Cornfed and have a joint cry about it?


  In case you missed it, lemme show it to you again.


Sure bring your pretend Jew test with the free lolly and false mustache and funny glasses that came with it , in fairness no one does better buy in the mail 5 dollar fake certs in the world than yanks don't some of you guys make a living from these certs?

Hey buddy you know when your father bought you a bow and arrow and an Apache headrest that didn't mean your were a real red injun?      Sorry ......you thought I'd did didn't you ? Buddy seriously??????

Nomenclature

@jack

I SAY that because of that pesky DNA test I took..  You say it's fake. 

Your DNA test isn't "pesky". It's utterly meaningless. When you sit there like an absolute clown and continuously deny science, simply because you don't want to surrender the social gains you have made by pretending to be something you are not, you reveal the despicable nature of your own character.

DNA Ancestry Tests Are 'Meaningless' for Your Historical Genealogy

https://www.medicaldaily.com/dna-ancestry-tests-are-meaningless-your-historical-genealogy-search-244586

Commercial DNA tests that claim to tell people whether they are related to Richard III or descended from the Vikings are no more than "genetic astrology", scientists have warned.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9912822/DNA-ancestry-tests-branded-meaningless.html

Nomenclature

@jack

who has over 109,000,000 satisfied customers world wide

According to who? Them? That's strange because there are two dozen reviews on this site and not a single one of them is positive:-

https://www.reviewopedia.com/myheritage-com-reviews

Oh look guys, the scam company says all its customers are really satisfied. Nothing to see here.

I'm sick of reading your imbecilic circular reasoning, outrageous logical fallacies and vicious personal attacks you pathetic crook. 

Dee

@Nomenclature

Tremendous little scam that takes an extra $119 a year annual subscription fees from id-its like ExCon and  Cornfed , more luck  to the site owners , as we say over here "when you have an A-s you ride it "

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dee
I already responded to this previously, since you appear to have missed my reply I'll resend it.

Ethnicity cannot be detected by DNA 

The definition of ethnicity:
1a: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
Jews definitely constitute this as they tend to have the same religious, linguistic, and cultural origins.
Jews also fit the definition of a tribal ethnic group as they are all descended from the same ancestor.
The definition of a tribe:

1a: a social group composed chiefly of numerous families, clans, or generations having a shared ancestry and language

Since ethnicity can be defined as a common tribal origin, and a tribe can be defined as those sharing the same ancestry, then ethnicity can be detected by DNA.
Ethnicity = Tribe
Tribe = Shared Ancestry
Thus, Ethnicity = Shared Ancestry

You obviously as usual ignored my piece from a Jewish website

Jews are not a unique race(which, I agree, your website did state), and I never did say that. In fact, I ruled out race for any person in the first sentence of my argument, I'm sorry you didn't see that very obvious clarification I put.
The article also states that Jews have historically identified as their own unique people, and thus their own ethnic group. This supports my argument, thank you for the sourcing.
Most Jews(Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Mizrahi Jews, the main three Jewish sub-divisions) do have an extremely close genetic relationship and all look physiologically similar. This does not mean that they are a race though, it means they have a common genetic origin and are thus their own tribe or ethnic group. Jews also have a shared culture, whose ethics can be held even by Jews who are atheists or Christians.

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

Jews definitely constitute this as they tend to have the same religious, linguistic, and cultural origins.

Really? So all of these people share the same ethnicity?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Nomenclature

Obviously what I said is 100 percent true, and your objection is a staggering self-contradiction. Jewish religious law is not applicable to anybody except religious Jews.

You're ignoring the definition of a Jew by Judaism itself. Being a Jew isn't about adhering to Judaism, it's about being born a Jew. Being Jewish is not a religion in the modern sense, rather, it is a people with a religion, or vice versa, or an ethnoreligious group, so even if you convert to another religion, you are still a member of the ethnic group. What makes someone a Jew is just nationality, you are born that way, and you will stay that way. And that is how Jews have been treated and have seen themselves. 

As stated previously, Jews constitute our own ethnic group as...
We have our own unique culture, language, religion, food, customs, holidays, genetic similarity, and national identity. Also, I have given many examples of nonreligious cultural customs, to which you have promptly ignored, will you address this?
The idea of Judaism as purely a religion is contradictory to the nature of Judaism itself, to what the Jewish people consider themselves as. Furthermore, Jews have a rich shared history, culture, and language that constitutes Hebrews as a distinct ethnic group. It's laughable to hear many anti-Semites today deny the existence of a Jewish people, and speak ignorantly of its religion, culture, and identity.
Furthermore, ignoring the other factors that make a Jew ethnically Jewish. Religious differences have led to massive amounts of ethnic divisions and separations. For example, Druze and Alawites are both considered ethnic groups since they practice unique sects of Islam, despite the fact that they are still Muslim and speak Arabic. Serbs and Croats have virtually no language difference and have relatively similar cultures, however, the difference between the existence of Catholicism in Croatia and the existence of Orthodox Christianity in Serbia has led to ethnic divides. The examples given are simply a few of many others.
Please don't ignore the arguments above as you have previously and address the substance of my argumentation.

How do you also determine the ethnicity of someone in general? What is your definition of an ethnic group? I have already determined it cannot be purely based on language as many ethnic groups speak primarily the same language.

The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply did not happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Jewish diaspora is essentially a modern invention.

A patently false statement, it is well known that after the Bar Kokhba revolt, many Jews were enslaved, and forced to move out of the region. Furthermore, all Jews can trace back their genetic origin to the middle east.

He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times.

The appearances of Jews around the Mediterranean was not due to local conversion. This is seen by the fact that modern genetics have proven that Jews groups around the Mediterranean, like Greece, Italy, and Morocco, all have large middle east haplogroups identification, meaning that there was a genetic connection between those in that region and Israel. Imply diaspora and immigration from Palestine, rather than spontaneous local conversions of local populations.

Talmudic law also describes the conversion process to Judaism and given that the Talmud has hardly changed from the Roman exile, Talmudic law today should be just as valid as 2000 years ago. Talmudic law describes how a rabbi should discourage one from conversion, and then it would take several long grueling years of study to actually convert to Judaism. Judaism is not a converting religion that tries to encourage said conversions. In fact, Judaism actively discourages conversions among gentile populations.
It should be understood that the concept of Judaism even as a religion(in the sense that we describe a religion today) is a rather new one. Judaism began as a familial or ethnic tradition among the ancient Israelites. In fact, the name of Judaism didn't even exist until after the destruction of the first temple, it was mostly what people did, it didn't have a name, it was a set of traditions and rules rather than a concrete religious doctrine.



It should be said that denial of the existence of the Jewish people is akin to anti-Semitism. And it is similar to how many neo-Nazis today claim that the Jews today are in fact ginger, Eastern European Kharzas that have no claim to the land of Israel. 80 years ago anti-Semites were claiming Jews are Semites seeking to take over foreign lands such as Germany for their own profit. While today, the opposite claims are being made, with denial of the fact that Jews have a connection to the land of Israel, and are taking over that 'foreign land' for their own profit and benefit. The conclusion is always the same, but the reasoning changes.

Really? So all of these people share the same ethnicity?

As stated previously, although same Jewish sub-groups share little relation to the middle east and Israel, such as Indian Jews and Falashim. The vast majority of Jewish groups contain strong connections to the middle east.
Some of the people in the photos would likely not be ethnically Jewish by genetics, yes.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23052947/#&gid=article-figures&pid=fig-1-uid-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Autosomal_DNA
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20531471/
The evidence above demonstrates that without a doubt, modern genetics proves the relationship between most Jewish diaspora populations and Israel. Despite millennia in isolation, Jews still kept the vast majority of their genetic similarities with each other.
Furthermore, even from a religious perspective, Jews do constitute their own unique ethnic group. For instance, in the Bible, Hebrews are often described as their own people, often through the denotation of "children of Israel." By referring to the Hebrew people as children it identifies an ancestral link between them, specifically through Yaakov, or Israel.

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

The vast majority of Jewish groups contain strong connections to the middle east.

Completely irrelevant. The vast majority of the world's prison population lives in the United States. That doesn't make prisoners ethnically American.

Either Jews share the same ethnicity or they don't. Which is it?

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

The appearances of Jews around the Mediterranean was not due to local conversion.

Well, forgive me for lending slightly more weight to the conclusions of a qualified history professor who has dedicated much of his natural life to researching the issue, than the random, unsupported claims of an internet user who thinks 1+1=3.

Nomenclature

@MineSubCraftStarved

You're ignoring the definition of a Jew by Judaism itself.

I'm not ignoring anything. You're committing a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. That is, you're arguing that if the Jewish religion identifies me as something, I am that thing regardless of whether or not I believe in the Jewish religion. It's so far beyond ridiculous it barely credits a response. On the Pacific island of Tanna, the local religious leaders thought that Prince Philip was a deity. That doesn't mean Prince Philip was actually a deity.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

Nonsense,  ignoring what a Jewish site has to say on the matter doesn't make it go away , the random musings of a confused American doesn't make the truth go away either .......

My Jewish Learning is a not-for-profit and relies on your help

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

You find basic concepts very difficult to follow so let's try with pictures , illumination may follow ......

Like many teens on Tumblr, Marco obsessively reblogs photos of picturesquely overcast skies and sunsets. But the images he chooses don't just resonate with him aesthetically: For a while now, Marco says, he has identified as a cloud trapped in a human body

Marco is quiet obviously mentally ill.........

Melanie below thinks she's an Elf , ( fill in the blanks please ) Melanie is quiet obviously -------- ---

This one following is filled in for you ........

The last one is an extreme case of mental illness as this imbecile claims ......

If I say that "1 + 1 = 3" is a true statement, who are you to say that  "No, that is wrong, 1 + 1 = 2."

Nomenclature

@Dee

People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Hi Dee.

Not simply implausible, but actually bona fide impossible. I truly can't comprehend why so many people have trouble understanding something so self-evident and incontrovertible. At any point in history any person or group of people were free to convert to Judaism, and indeed a great many have done so. The idea that this somehow changes their DNA -- or even their ethnicity -- is so mind-numbingly ridiculous that it genuinely beggars belief reading some of these posts.

Of course, we have Jack, who knows perfectly well he isn't Jewish and just chooses to sit here and fabricate his own reality, but there are others also who seem to have a genuine cognitive dissonance when it comes to this issue. No doubt American media deserves some of the blame, but I'd still expect people to be capable of thinking for themselves and understanding the complete illogic of trying to define a religion in racial or ethnic terms.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Hi Nom , 

At any point in history any person or group of people were free to convert to Judaism, and indeed a great many have done so. The idea that this somehow changes their DNA -- or even their ethnicity -- is so mind-numbingly ridiculous that it genuinely beggars belief reading some of these posts.


It's akin to Americans coming here claiming "I'm Irish as I'm related through my grandmothers 7th cousin 15 times removed who left Ireland in 1521 " the next step is they buy a tin whistle and an  Aran sweater and dink a pint of Guinness and bore everyone to death for the rest of their ridiculous lives claiming "I'm Irish" 

Jack and Cornfed think having a ridiculous novelty certificate a big nose and a tiny hat on your skull means you're  a Jew , MineSub  thinks 1+2 = 3 or maybe 2 proving he's f-cking insane ......the one thing all 3 have in common is  they're American and like most they wish they were something else 

Nomenclature

@Dee

It's akin to Americans coming here claiming "I'm Irish as I'm related through my grandmothers 7th cousin 15 times removed who left Ireland in 1521

Yes, that's a fantastic comparison. People who have never been within a thousand miles of Ireland who call themselves Irish.

the one thing all 3 have in common is  they're American and like most they wish they were something else

The most frightening aspect is that, because the American media entrains people into insane thought patterns, almost everybody there thinks being insane is normal.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Yes, that's a fantastic comparison. People who have never been within a thousand miles of Ireland who call themselves Irish.

I have to suffer greatly every Sunday Nom as I sell my Art at an open air gallery in Dublins city centre , we are awash with Americans "looking for their roots " in fairness I like New Yorkers mostly, as they are  rational , intelligent and don't fall for bull , then we get the other type like a cretin last year who said " do you guys ever thank the US for protecting your a-s while you sleep" I replied  " I totally forgot to do it this morning but I'm on way way up to the American  embassy this moment to remedy this disgraceful oversight " his wife said " you're a real wise acre ain't ya" I replied " why don't you run along now grab a dinner in one of our fines pubs where you eat very large Irish potatoes specially designed for very large American mouths " .....I never saw the guy or his wife again , funny that 

The most frightening aspect is that, because the American media entrains people into insane thought patterns, almost everybody there thinks being insane is normal.

You're spot on Nom they attempt to  normalise insanity , half an hour talking about guns on here easily confirms this 

Nomenclature

@Dee

Then we get the other type like a cretin last year who said " do you guys ever thank the US for protecting your a-s while you sleep" I replied  " I totally forgot to do it this morning but I'm on way way up to the American  embassy this moment to remedy this disgraceful oversight " his wife said " you're a real wise acre ain't ya" I replied " why don't you run along now grab a dinner in one of our fines pubs where you eat very large Irish potatoes specially designed for very large American mouths " .....I never saw the guy or his wife again , funny that 

You've got more patience than I do. When they say stuff like that it just infuriates me. They genuinely get taught to believe that America is the last defence against evil and it single-handedly keeps the world safe at night. 

And they are so invested in the fantasy that you can't reason with them. It's like trying to convince a ten year old that he's not really Batman. 

Dee

@Nomenclature

I've come close to clocking one or two , they walk along and uninvited give their opinions which I haven't asked for , a Trump supporters with a MAGA hat a  while back  got out of his rental car looked at me and said " we hate Ireland we ain't coming back  " I said "well go and f-ck off then" a traffic  clamper I know  heard him saying this and came over and clamped him as the moron fogot to ticket his car , when he came back he looked at me and said " we're off to the airport now so f-ck you buddy " I said "good luck with that fat boy " and pointed at the clamp he went insane as I and the other artists howled with laughter 

ZaidSab

Argument Topic: Historically

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

ZaidSab

Argument Topic: Historically

Jews historically have defined themselves as a people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Converts are also considered descendants of these patriarchal ancestors. Colloquially, Jews also sometimes describe themselves as a tribe

Luigi7255

@ZaidSab

That's a very simple argument at best. I can say my family is descended from Brahma and does that make me a part of a new race? Absolutely not. Being Jewish depends ONLY on religion since it's based on JUDAISM, a RELIGION. I think caps make it a little clearer to understand.

Nomenclature

@Luigi7255

That's a very simple argument at best. I can say my family is descended from Brahma and does that make me a part of a new race? Absolutely not. Being Jewish depends ONLY on religion since it's based on JUDAISM, a RELIGION. I think caps make it a little clearer to understand.

Thank you for explaining this to these imbeciles.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Nomenclature

Completely irrelevant. The vast majority of the world's prison population lives in the United States. That doesn't make prisoners ethnically American.

But saying that most prisoners would be American by nationality would be a true statement. Similar to how saying most Judaic people have Jewish genetics.

Either Jews share the same ethnicity or they don't. Which is it?

A Jew by definition is someone of Jewish ethnicity. As I have previously explained, Jews are from an ethnic group as they have very close cultural, religious, food, customs, non-religious and religious holidays, language, and ancestral heritage. Jews also share a strong national identity and have often been treated as such. The concept of Jews as purely a religious concept is an extremely modern one, and has only existed in the past 2-3 centuries, with it gaining traction within the last 50 years. It has no basis in historical concepts of religion, Judaism, and ethnicity, and is simply a response to increased Jewish assimilation to western countries such as the United States.
You have yet to respond to this point and appear to be running away from the main content of my argument and are nitpicking specific quotes. Multiple times, I have asked your definition of ethnicity and why a Jew can never be of Jewish ethnicity. Respond.
What ethnicity were Jews living in German and Moroccan Ghettos, Russian villages, and Iraqi quarters? They had little contact with the gentile world, had very different cultures, and often spoke a different language altogether. Since Jews are culturally and linguistically distinct in diaspora populations, why aren't they considered their own ethnicity? And if they aren't, what ethnicity are Jews that lived in Poland, Morocco, Azerbaijan, or Yemen?

Well, forgive me for lending slightly more weight to the conclusions of a qualified history professor who has dedicated much of his natural life to researching the issue, than the random, unsupported claims of an internet user who thinks 1+1=3.

The notion that Shlomo Sand pushes, that Jews did not come from Israel, has been proven wrong by numerous genetic studies. These have conclusively proven that Ashkenazim(most European Jews) had strong connections to the middle east, although with a significant admixture of Southern European(presumably Italian) genes. Directly contradicting the findings of Sand.

I'm not ignoring anything. You're committing a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. That is, you're arguing that if the Jewish religion identifies me as something, I am that thing regardless of whether or not I believe in the Jewish religion. It's so far beyond ridiculous it barely credits a response. On the Pacific island of Tanna, the local religious leaders thought that Prince Philip was a deity. That doesn't mean Prince Philip was actually a deity.

What defines a Jew by Judaism is the same thing as what defines a nationality by a country. If you are born in a country, you are born with that nationality and citizenship status, similar to how in Judaism, if you are born into it you keep it and are still considered a Jew, even if you aren't religious, don't consider yourself Judaic, or converted to another religion. Although you can't convert out of being a Jew, you can't abandon citizenship of many countries, such as Mexico, as the analogy still stands. Although you can still identify as something other than a Jew. It's just the same thing how you can identify as not being a citizen of a country when you are in fact still a citizen.

As a side note, when you refer to the fact that the fact that many groups converted in Judaism, and thus Judaism doesn't have a 'pure' genetic code, many other cultures also had various different outside groups assimilating into them. For example, the people in Britain today are a result of two genetically different people, those of Germanic descent and of the local Brittonic population. Similarly, early Arabs assimilated and procreated with local non-Arab tribes in southern Arabia, but they are still considered Arab. Today we can identify different groups despite the level of genetic cross-mixing involved in every ethnicity. No ethnic group has to be descended from one specific family and no other, and I have never said as such.