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Is the Doctrine of Sola Fide (Justification by Faith Alone) Biblical?

Debate Information

Perhaps the biggest dividing point between a lot of Protestants and most other denominations (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, etc.) is the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone. This doctrine teaches that faith in Christ Jesus alone(sola fide), through God's grace alone(sola gratia), without any works at all, saves you
Most non-Protestant denominations within the realm of Christianity would argue that God's grace alone(sola gratia) saves us and that we must then cooperate with that grace through faith and works to remain connected to Christ, the vine.

Relative to two passages: James 2:24 (
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone), and Romans 3:28 (Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.) What is the most logical conclusion to come to? Any other passages are welcome as well, but I believe this is a good base to start off the debate. 
Note that Catholic theology does not teach Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) but believes in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, however for the purpose of this debate and finding common ground, we will stick to Scripture Alone, specifically the Protestant canon of 66 books.

I will be taking the stance that Sola Fide is anti-Scriptural, and that the Bible clearly teaches faith and works in cooperation with grace.
Cat
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  • just_sayinjust_sayin 854 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Works are a response to salvation, they can't earn it

    I think those who say works are a part of our salvation have misunderstood the passage in James.  Martin Luther was so upset by James that he did not want the book to be part of the cannon of Scripture.  If one believes that the Bible is not self-contradictory, then it would seem that James focus is that works are a response to our salvation.  it is an outward sign that FOLLOWS genuine belief rather than what saves us.

    There are plenty of Bible verses which strongly show that we are not saved by works:

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV

    What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?  If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.  What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.  However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.  David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those     whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”  Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.   It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless,  because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. - Romans 4:1-17 ESV

    Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. - John 5:24 ESV

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—  the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. - Romans 3:21 - 28 ESV

    But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Romans 11:4 ESV

    Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Galatians 3:11 ESV

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.  - John 3:16-18 ESV

    Note: the good works FOLLOW (are the result of believing - they do not save nor precede salvation):

    he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,  whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.  - Titus 3:5-8

    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    Argument Topic: Sola Fide is Unbiblical

    I believe that Sola Fide is unbiblical because it only captures one side of the Biblical narrative of the Christian faith. When reading the Scriptures, it is clear that there are three aspects to salvation: We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved; or initial, continuous, and final salvation. I believe that we are saved by faith alone, we are being saved by faith and works in cooperation with grace, and we will be saved by inheriting the grace of final salvation upon death. Let me unpack what I mean.

     

    We Have Been Saved(Initial Salvation)

    I believe that when we put our trust in Jesus Christ and are baptized, we are saved. There are no works required to inherit initial salvation for we can do nothing to earn it. If we were to earn our salvation, we would embark on a life-long journey of good works, hoping that at the end of our lives we had done enough good things to gain our salvation. That would be a perversion of the Gospel. We are saved by grace alone, through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9- “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.”) The guidelines for inheriting initial salvation are provided in Mark 16:16- “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”. I know many may disagree about whether baptism is a requirement for salvation, even in the Protestant world, but the Scriptures seem very clear on the matter. Initial salvation comes through believing and being baptized.

     

    We Are Being Saved(‘Continuous’ Salvation)

    After we have been saved by grace through faith, works now come into play in striving for final salvation. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18, “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” Now that we are saved, we are being saved. This process involves good works and faith, and both are essential to inheriting final salvation. Ephesians 2:10 states “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Why do I say that works, working through faith, in cooperation with grace, are essential to salvation? Because Jesus Himself teaches this in John 15:1-12, which states “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    Christ makes it clear that we must abide, or remain, in His love or we will be cut off from the vine, the source of our salvation. Notice that the passage speaks of one who is already in the vine and it very clearly speaks of this person as the branch. Now, Christ says that if they do not bear fruit, or works, they will be cut off and thrown into the fire. He then says that if you keep His commandments, you will abide in His love. His commandment is to love one another. As Jesus says in Matthew 22:37-40, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets.” Christ is telling us that to abide, or remain, in Him, we must keep His commandments. If we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, that will prompt us to do good works. We will not defraud each other, kill, steal, lie, whatever else, if we are loving one another, but rather, we will go out of our way to do things for the God we love and the people we love. This does not mean we need a checklist of good works to do everyday in the hopes that we will somehow merit eternal salvation. Rather, we should be living lives of obedience to Christ and what He tells us to do, and if we do not do this, we will be cut off and thrown into the fire. He says, “Why do you say you love me and don’t do what I say?” (Luke 6;46)

     

    We Will Be Saved (Final Salvation)

    This final ‘stage’ if you will, of salvation occurs upon death. After we have finished our lives, fought the good fight, kept the faith, we will be saved in the final sense. We will go to heaven, the final goal of every Christian. Paul states in Romans 13:11, “Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed.”, and in Philippians 3:10-14, “I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining towards what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.

    So we will be saved in the sense that we will inherit eternal life and the gift that God has promised us through Christ His Son when we have left this world and go to be with the Lord.

     

    So, in conclusion, I do not believe that anybody can boast in their works, because the only thing that made their works possible in the first place was God’s grace. We have done nothing to earn our salvation, for it is a free gift, but once we receive it, we must then press on in good works and faith to reach final salvation. “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved, but it is all by God’s grace that anything we can do for His glory is even possible. This is what the Catholic Church teaches about faith and works in cooperation with grace as pertaining to the salvation of the sinner.

    Cat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Response to Just Sayin

    @just_sayin

    Just Sayin,

    You made a really great argument, but I believe that your response holds a couple of errors. First I need to apologize though, because I feel I did not clarify my stance on the matter as I should have in the opening of the debate. I do believe that we are saved by grace through faith, but I also believe that we are being saved, and will be saved. Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith, and not of works, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9, but being saved is a process that involves both good works and faith, working in cooperation with God’s grace.

    I think it is important to categorize these verses into three sections: Initial, Continuous, and Final salvation, as well as to differentiate between works of the Law and good works in general.

    In Romans 4, Paul is using Abraham’s faith apart from works in describing that in the same way, we can be saved without works. ‘To the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.’ Paul is speaking of the believer’s initial salvation here, and for that reason he says, “So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.” The moment we are saved, we have been made righteous. We did nothing to earn it, it was a gift of God to us that we took hold of by putting our faith in Christ. That is why we cannot boast, because we did nothing to earn it. If we did something to earn it, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:4) Nothing we can do can merit us salvation, only accepting Christ’s blood that He shed on Calvary for us.

    John 5:24 speaks of initial salvation. When we hear Christ’s word and truly believe Him who sent Him, we have eternal life. From that moment, we have been saved and it was only by grace through faith that this occurred.

    Romans 3:21-28 speaks of ‘works of the Law’. This is in reference to the Mosaic Law and Paul is saying that the Law will not save us, for we are justified by faith, not the Law. He says that the Law and the Prophets bore witness to the faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. Whether you view works of the Law as works in general, or the Mosaic Law, the simple fact remains; we are justified by faith, not works. This verse, like Romans 4 and John 5;24, is in reference to our initial salvation, the moment we are saved. He speaks of ‘receiving [the gift] by faith’. We can only receive the gift by putting our faith in Christ and no amount of good works we could do could ever earn this gift, or it would no longer be a gift. For ‘To the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation’.

    Romans 11:4, (I think you mean 11:6?) as well is speaking of the moment we are saved. It speaks of God electing the believer unto salvation (verse 5) and then Paul says if this election is by grace, then it can’t be of works. I agree with your understanding of this passage completely, for we are saved by grace alone. Faith and works are subject to God’s grace, with which God elects us. We can only respond to God’s call because He first draws us with His grace and therefore salvation cannot be of anything other than grace.

    Galatians 3:11 in no way contradicts the argument that, once we have inherited initial salvation by grace through faith, we must now have faith and works, in cooperation with grace. Notice that Paul does not say, “The righteous shall live by faith alone”. In fact the only place in the Bible where you will find faith alone is in James 2:24, which says, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Paul, in Galatians 3, is addressing the churches of Galatia, and the fact that they were trying to go back to the Old Law to be saved. Certain Jews had come into their churches and were leading them astray, telling them they had to keep the Old Covenant laws instead of having faith in Christ for their salvation. And so, Paul writes this letter to them, warning them that if they ‘having begun in the Spirit, are now being perfected by the flesh’, they are ‘under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.’, and that ‘no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.” Paul is coming against the Jews who were seeking to bring their fellow Jewish believers away from faith in Christ and back to the Old Law. He is not speaking against all works, but merely the works that would take the believers away from living by their faith in Christ. The entire chapter is devoted to works of the old covenant law.

    John 3:16 speaks of initial salvation; the moment we are saved, and I think we would both probably agree with that.

    Titus 3:5-8 Is once again speaking of initial salvation. Paul says “He saved(past tense) us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy…” But then Paul says that after we are saved, “Those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.” We are already saved at this point and have entered into the realm of ‘being saved’. Paul says we must devote ourselves to good works after we are saved, but this in no way takes away from our faith either. They work together. Jesus said we must keep His commandments but this does not take away from faith. As one theologian puts it, faith works through love. You cannot have works that bear fruit to God’s glory without faith, and nor can you have faith that does not work; that is the whole point of what James is saying in James 2.


    Cat
  • BarnardotBarnardot 520 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic Well yes your right there because thats what the Bible says any way because if you analize it and look at it in the end thats all you have to do But that doesn't meen that you can run around killing every one and doing your friends wifes because your got to face judgment day in the end and God can see weather or not some one has made a mokery of his faith any way Any way in the end God knows that when you really do have belief all the other things that are good about being a Christian will fall into place in the end any way.

    Cat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    Just Sayin,

    You made a really great argument

    And you lost all credibility right at that moment. You religious nutters really need to get yourselves back home to the 11th century and let the rest of us figure stuff out.

    ProudToBeCatholicCat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Barnardot
    I think you misunderstand my position. I do not believe that faith alone saves you, without any works at all. I believe that after you inherit initial salvation, you must then do good works and have faith in cooperation with grace in order to get to heaven when you die. I do not believe you can go around sinning like hell after you get saved. If you practice sin after being saved, not just sinning because you fall, but rejecting God and doing your own thing, you have fallen away from the faith and 'there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins'. I believe that such a person must repent or they are on their way to the lake of fire when they die.

    But I do agree with you that God knows if you have false faith or not and He cannot be tricked by anybody. Thanks for bringing up that point because it is very important to realize that the Lord knows our hearts and whether or not we are truly seeking to do His will.
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    What are you talking about? Telling someone they made a good argument even if you disagree is part of being polite. I guess you don't see it that way, but I have found that debating somebody without being rude and snobby usually makes for a great debate that ends well!
    And I am not a religious nutter, I am simply somebody who enjoys studying theology and loves the Lord and the Catholic faith.
    CatNomenclature
  • PepsiguyPepsiguy 109 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Yes

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5027056#:~:text=Abraham%20believed%20God%2C%20and%20it,faith%20is%20counted%20for%20righteousness.

    How could Abraham be considered righteous in God's eyes if God didn't give him the law code(or bible)? How can we depraved and sinful humans ever please God?

    http://https//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A28&version=ESV

    Now some may point to

    James 2:24

    which states: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

    but the key words here are "You see" Now here were being told that if someone tells you they are saved look at their actions. A person who is saved through faith alone will act in ways that are pleasing to God.

    more verses:

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Ephesians 2:8

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    Galatians 2:16

    John 6:47

    John 3:16

    Philippians 3:9 

    Galatians 5:6

    Romans 4:3

    Romans 4:1-25

    Romans 10:9

    Romans 6:23

    Romans 4:5

    ProudToBeCatholicCat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    What are you talking about?

    I'm talking about the fact that the moment someone else entertains your ridiculous, childish and false notions, you slap them on the back and call it a great argument. Agreeing with your religious delusions is not the qualification for a great argument. 

    Telling someone they made a good argument even if you disagree is part of being polite

    Lying to someone is one of the most impolite things you can do. 

    I have found that debating somebody without being rude and snobby usually makes for a great debate that ends well!

    Well, I apologise if you find me snobby, but the problem is that arguing about whose imaginary friend is better isn't debate.



    ProudToBeCatholicCat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @nomenclature
    I'm talking about the fact that the moment someone else entertains your ridiculous, childish and false notions, you slap them on the back and call it a great argument. Agreeing with your religious delusions is not the qualification for a great argument. 
    First of all, my notions are neither ridiculous, childish, nor false. If you reject what I am saying, why don't you make an argument for it? Or are you speaking of Christianity in general? If that is the case, I would be happy to go over some of your objections to the faith, if you would like.
    Second, @just_sayin did not entertain what I said, but he made a case against it, so the rest of what you just said makes no sense. He disagreed with what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a good argument. I believe that even atheists have some great arguments, even though I strongly disagree with them. So I don't know where you got the notion that I believe agreeing with my 'religious delusions' is a qualification for a great argument.

    Lying to someone is one of the most impolite things you can do. 

    I never lied. I thought it was a great argument. How are you able to tell me if I believe something is a good argument? Can you read my mind?

    Well, I apologise if you find me snobby, but the problem is that arguing about whose imaginary friend is better isn't debate.

    I do not find you snobby, but I don't understand why you are making such a fuss about me telling somebody they made a good argument. 
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @nomenclature
    I'm talking about the fact that the moment someone else entertains your ridiculous, childish and false notions, you slap them on the back and call it a great argument. Agreeing with your religious delusions is not the qualification for a great argument. 
    Nothing I have said is ridiculous, childish, or false. If you disagree with me about the topic of Sola Fide, post an argument. If you disagree about Christianity altogether, I would be happy to talk with you about whatever objections you may have.
    Second, agreeing with me is not the qualification for a great argument; I agree with that. I have never stated or implied that it is so I don't know why you are acting as if I did. In fact, @just_sayin disagreed with me, and I told him he had a great argument so that makes no sense.

    Lying to someone is one of the most impolite things you can do. 

    it was not a lie. I simply stated that someone had a good argument, and I meant it honestly. Someone does not have to agree with me to have a good argument.

    Well, I apologise if you find me snobby, but the problem is that arguing about whose imaginary friend is better isn't debate.

    I do not find you snobby, but I don't understand why you are making such a fuss about me telling somebody they made a good argument.
    NomenclatureCat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @pepsiguy

    Pepsiguy,

     

    Your post: Now some may point to James 2:24 which states: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." but the key words here are "You see" Now here were being told that if someone tells you they are saved look at their actions. A person who is saved through faith alone will act in ways that are pleasing to God.

     

    But is the text truly implying that works are merely evidence of faith? Or is it implying that faith and works are both neccesary for salvation?

    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friends of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

    This passage cannot be speaking of looking at the professing believer’s works as evidence of his salvation, for he speaks of the salvation of the believer (James 2:14- What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?) He is speaking of what saves us. Not what is evidence of our salvation. Notice he also says “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone” (James 2:17) He is speaking of real faith here, not some false faith that never existed in the first place because the person was not truly saved. He says that the faith is dead, not nonexistent. If you take this passage as looking at somebody’s works to see if they are truly saved, then if there were no works, they would not have faith at all anyways. It wouldn’t be dead because it would’ve never existed in them. James even creates a contrast between the spirit and the body, and faith and works. He says that if the spirit is separate from the body, the body is dead, and in the same way, if faith is separate from works, that faith is dead. So, I would ask you, how can this passage be speaking of looking at somebody’s works to see if they truly have faith when James makes it clear that the individual in this passage does have faith, but that the faith is dead because it does not have good works as well? Is it a difference between true faith and false faith, or is it a difference between living faith and dead faith? I would propose the later based on the entirety of the passage.

    One more point I would like to make. Notice the type of works that James references at the beginning of the passage; clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. He gives these works as examples of what is neccesary for living faith. These are the exact same works that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25:35-36, when the believers, the sheep, are told to enter into the kingdom of God. Christ says, “Inherit the kingdom prepared for you… for I was hungry and you gave me food… I was naked and you clothed me”. And He also turns to the goats and says they are to go into everlasting torment because they did not do these things. Jesus listed these, among others, as works we must do to enter His kingdom. Just as He also says in Mark 12:30-31 (And thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these). And Jesus says, “If you love me you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15) Putting these verses together, it becomes clear what James is speaking of. He is speaking of faith and works together as being neccesary for salvation. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

    And as for the verses you supplied, they can each be categorized according to initial, continuous, and final salvation and when that is done, it will not demonstrate that continuous salvation (being saved) is by faith alone.

    Cat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    Nothing I have said is ridiculous, childish, or false

    Everything you have said is ridiculous, childish and false. I'll give you just one example:-

    After you inherit initial salvation, you must then do good works and have faith in cooperation with grace in order to get to heaven when you die.

    As mentioned, ridiculous, childish and false. 

    Forgive me for telling you the truth, but there is no heaven. Christianity is an antiquated and ludicrous con, which was manufactured to seduce compliance from impoverished peasants in life by convincing them that rewards await them in death. You cannot be fully sane and believe in Christianity. It's impossible. 

    Of course, I understand the incredible power of brainwashing, so I know that I stand zero chance of ever convincing you of this objective reality, but I can sleep with a clear conscience knowing I at least tried. 

     I have never stated or implied that it is so

    You don't need to explicitly state something in order to for it to be self-evidently true. You did not label my argument a "great argument" and that is because I made it abundantly clear that I think your core beliefs are ridiculous. 

    I don't know why you are acting as if I did. 

    Because your motive was self-evident. That's why.

    I don't understand why you are making such a fuss about me telling somebody they made a good argument.

    Because it wasn't a good argument. @Just_Sayin is a militantly religious, disingenuous, ultra far right wingnut who couldn't find a good argument in a packet of good arguments. Arguing about the meaning of a work of pure fiction as if it is anything but a work of pure fiction is not how you construct a good argument. I can write you a five thousand word analysis of Tolkien's elven poetry, but it does not mean I'm going to Lothlorien when I die.

    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Why are you here?

    @Nomenclature
    This argument is not to debate the existence of God, nor is it to offend people who happen to have a different viewpoint of life than you do, this argument is for Salvation and whether it is gained by works, faith, or works and faith. You have done nothing but offend politeness, humiliate yourself with your obvious ignorance of the Bible, and attempt to argue about a completely different topic. I know you can act better than this, if you want to debate the existence of God you can do so in another argument, but do not come here and disturb people with your nonsense. 
    NomenclatureProudToBeCatholic
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Cat
    This argument is not to debate the existence of God
    No, because you've presupposed the existence of God already, without debating it. What this does is only open your "argument" up to other ill people who are prepared to accept your absurd suppositions without challenging them.
    nor is it to offend people who happen to have a different viewpoint of life than you do
    If challenging the rationality of your viewpoint offends you, then I'm afraid that's a problem with you, not a problem with me. 
    this argument is for Salvation and whether it is gained by works, faith, or works and faith.
    Lol. You can't restrict the debating field to only those others who subscribe to your wackadoodle beliefs. That's unfair on everybody else.
    You have done nothing but offend politeness, humiliate yourself with your obvious ignorance of the Bible
    OK, number one, politeness can't be offended because it's an abstract noun. Number two, this is your Bible:-

    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.”  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

    Your belief that this crap is about "salvation" demonstrates very clearly which one of us is ignorant, and it isn't me. 

    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature
    No, because you've presupposed the existence of God already, without debating it. What this does is only open your "argument" up to other ill people who are prepared to accept your absurd suppositions without challenging them.
    This is ironic considering what you believe is completely irrational. Whether you believe in God or not, the debate is about something entirely different, so please stick to the topic.

     If challenging the rationality of your viewpoint offends you, then I'm afraid that's a problem with you, not a problem with me. 

    When i meant offending, i did not mean you coming in here to 'challenge' our views, no, i meant when you called the posters 'religious nutters' said op 'lost credibility' simply because they complimented an opposing view, called our beliefs 'ridiculous, childish and false notions' ' antiquated and ludicrous con' 'brainwashing' and many other things. How is this in any way challenging our beliefs? You are simply offending them without giving coherent reasons as to why you believe what you do. 

    Lol. You can't restrict the debating field to only those others who subscribe to your wackadoodle beliefs. That's unfair on everybody else.

    Actually, it is an obvious rule, that when debating one must stick to the topic being discussed. 

    OK, number one, politeness can't be offended because it's an abstract noun. 

    You shamed the op's politeness when you completely started going off on them simply because they complimented another poster's argument. 

    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.”  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

    1. why would you let someone who works for the enemy live? sorcerers were dangerous people who usually simply hurt others and had no respect for God.

    2. Such a grave sin must be punished. Who are you to decide what God can or cannot do? 

    3. Respect for parents was an important command from God, later in the Bible, you can find where God tells the parents to respect the children as well. 

    4. You approve of adultery? Marriage was incredibly important to God since it symbolizes his relationship with the church. Later though, the law gave women the chance to divorce if the husband was being immoral or dangerous

    5. Do you realize how Holy God is? Why are you surprised when sin goes punished?

    6. This is still relevant today, if you sacrifice your time, effort, or existence to anyone other than God, you will be doomed. it is common sense

    7. The verse itself says they could choose God or death, they chose death, why are you surprised?

    8. Those who pretended to be prophets simply to spread lies had to be put to death

    9. Of course they had to be put to death, they were leading their family to death.

    10. i like how someone explained this verse, '' It is very unwise to strike your slave, because either they die and you’re charged with murder, or they are broken and die later and you’re out their useful labor.'' slavery is wrong, yes but the people had different customs and cultures back then, and the Law said you had to treat your slave right and not abuse of them. 

    11.  Respect your masters, the Bible also tells masters to take care of their slaves. Paul also tried to get freedom for slaves

    12. Do your job well, do not slack off.

    each of these has a completely rational meaning, simply find the context for each verse. Now, most of these are from the Old Testament, with different laws for the people. The new testament rewrote many of these laws because of Christ. Have a good day

    ProudToBeCatholicNomenclature
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -  
    Your belief that this crap is about "salvation" demonstrates very clearly which one of us is ignorant, and it isn't me. 

    Praying for your salvation
    ProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Everything you have said is ridiculous, childish and false. I'll give you just one example:-
    After you inherit initial salvation, you must then do good works and have faith in cooperation with grace in order to get to heaven when you die.

    As mentioned, ridiculous, childish and false. 

    Forgive me for telling you the truth, but there is no heaven. Christianity is an antiquated and ludicrous con, which was manufactured to seduce compliance from impoverished peasants in life by convincing them that rewards await them in death. You cannot be fully sane and believe in Christianity. It's impossible. 

    Of course, I understand the incredible power of brainwashing, so I know that I stand zero chance of ever convincing you of this objective reality, but I can sleep with a clear conscience knowing I at least tried. .

    That is not ridiculous, childish, or false, and as I said before, if you would like to talk about the existence of God, I will happily create another thread to do so. However, I created this thread and I laid down the rules of the debate. Last I checked I didn’t ask if God exists in the debate description. Maybe read it again? All you did was spew some textbook response to why Christianity is false.

    You don't need to explicitly state something in order to for it to be self-evidently true. You did not label my argument a "great argument" and that is because I made it abundantly clear that I think your core beliefs are ridiculous. 

    I did not label your argument as a great argument because your argument sucked. Because I believe one person made a good argument, a person who disagreed with me by the way, does not mean that everybody now makes great arguments. I judge it on an argument by argument basis, not ‘every argument is a great one’ That would be .

    Because your motive was self-evident. That's why.

    Explain. How was my motive self-evident? You can’t just say that without stating why. That would be like me telling you God exists because it is self-evident and I am sure you would not appreciate that form of argumentation, would you?

    Because it wasn't a good argument. @Just_Sayin is a militantly religious, disingenuous, ultra far right wingnut who couldn't find a good argument in a packet of good arguments. Arguing about the meaning of a work of pure fiction as if it is anything but a work of pure fiction is not how you construct a good argument. I can write you a five thousand word analysis of Tolkien's elven poetry, but it does not mean I'm going to Lothlorien when I die.

    That is your opinion. You may not have thought his argument was a good one and that is fine. I never said everybody has to believe it was a good argument. I said I thought it was a good argument. You can have your opinion, but don’t try and force it on others. If you are going to be in this thread, please speak to the topic being discussed, rather than throwing in your two-sense on my telling somebody they have a good argument.

    p.s. There is a huge difference between Tolkien’s elvin poetry and the Bible, ie inspiration, ie written by God, ie infallible.


    Cat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @Cat
    This is ironic considering what you believe is completely irrational. 
    No, this is ironic, because you have absolutely no idea what I believe. All you know is that I reject your antiquated religion. If rejecting the idea that people can walk on water or rise from the dead is your idea of irrational then you almost certainly are in need of long-term psychiatric treatment. 
    Whether you believe in God or not, the debate is about something entirely different, so please stick to the topic.
    The "topic" is predicated upon a ludicrous premise which I am unprepared to entertain. You don't get to dictate to me what I am allowed to disagree with.
    When i meant offending, i did not mean you coming in here to 'challenge' our views, no, i meant when you called the posters 'religious nutters' 
    No problem. Then I'll simply refer to you as unwell.
    said op 'lost credibility' simply because they complimented an opposing view
    It wasn't an opposing view because they both subscribe to the exact same nonsense about an omnipotent space fairy. If they disagree about the details of the space fairy then that's literally an argument about whose imaginary friend is real. I cannot even contemplate a more absurd thing to be arguing about.
    called our beliefs 'ridiculous, childish and false notions' ' antiquated and ludicrous con' 'brainwashing' and many other things
    Your beliefs are all of those things. In fact, I'm being quite reserved about the language I'm using to describe how absurd your beliefs are.
    Actually, it is an obvious rule
    No, it isn't an "obvious rule". You don't get to dictate to other people what they are permitted to disagree with. Thankfully, those days ended many centuries ago, after Christians had already tortured a lot of innocent people to death for challenging their insane beliefs. 
    You shamed the op's politeness
    I've explained how language works once. I'm not repeating myself just because you're too arrogant to listen.
    why would you let someone who works for the enemy live? 
    Well, I'm not a deeply mentally ill religious fundamentalist who thinks anyone that holds different beliefs is an enemy, so it's a bit of a loaded question. That said, congratulations on justifying terrorism. We're all really proud.
    Such a grave sin must be punished. Who are you to decide what God can or cannot do? 
    God doesn't punish anybody you absolute lunatic. You can't torture and kill people, then blame your imaginary friend for your own behaviour. What is actually wrong with your mind?

    Please get help. You're insane.

    ProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Nomenclature,

    In your response to @Cat , you gave a list of verses that show bad works will merit consequences and I could provide you a billion more verses that say the same thing. I, nor anyone here is disagreeing with that. We believe differently about it, as in, I believe works and faith are required, whereas others believe faith alone is all you need, but nobody has denied bad works will be punished. What is your point? You think this somehow discounts salvation? This is in no way related to Sola Fide, but please explain your reasoning. Are you trying to say that because God ordered the death of certain individuals, there can therefore be no salvation for anybody? That is foolishness. God is God, He makes the rules and lays down the consequences for disobeying them. How does that change the fact that men can be saved? You are presenting a non-sequitur here. Look up the definition of salvation because you obviously do not know it.

    I have seen this trick many times before. Atheists like to overwhelm Christians with verses that seem to, on the surface, ruin the entire premise of their argument. You will say, “God is wicked” and then present fifty Bible verses that show God allowing slavery or condemning people to death. However, upon closer look, the atheist’s entire argument falls flat. I am not going to fall for it and you did a very bad job employing this strategy in respect to salvation. Why don’t you move along to another thread so we can debate the topic at hand here?

    NomenclatureCat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    In your response to @Cat , you gave a list of verses that show bad works will merit consequences

    Wait, are you actually agreeing that we should stone adulterers to death, burn the daughters of preachers at the stake for having sex, murder our own children for being disrespectful, kill homosexuals, kill our own brothers for converting to Islam and beat our slaves?

    What is actually WRONG with you?

    You are a danger to society. You and everyone else who believes this absolute crap.

    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -  
    No, this is ironic, because you have absolutely no idea what I believe. All you know is that I reject your antiquated religion. If rejecting the idea that people can walk on water or rise from the dead is your idea of irrational then you almost certainly are in need of long-term psychiatric treatment
    You believe our God does not exist, this is evident. There is tons of proof that these incidents happened (historical, physical, spiritual) Im sorry you are mentally incapable of imagining that something other than what you can see exists. 

    The "topic" is predicated upon a ludicrous premise which I am unprepared to entertain. You don't get to dictate to me what I am allowed to disagree with.

    It is the focus of this debate nonetheless, I'm sorry, but whether you believe if God exists or not has nothing to do with this discussion, and frankly, none of us care. I simply wish for you to make your statements in another topic, your meaningless refutes are clogging what was supposed to be a thoughtful debate.
    No problem. Then I'll simply refer to you as unwell.
    I do not care what you call me as long as you can come up with actual coherent reasons as to why you believe this, preferably in another thread
    It wasn't an opposing view because they both subscribe to the exact same nonsense about an omnipotent space fairy. If they disagree about the details of the space fairy then that's literally an argument about whose imaginary friend is real. I cannot even contemplate a more absurd thing to be arguing about.
    If you were actually reading the debate, you would have seen that their views on salvation opposed each other. That is like debating whether president Kennedy's run was beneficial and someone randomly coming in and saying he never died. Stick to the topic. 
    Right? the only thing more absurd would be to be arguing that God does not exist 

    Your beliefs are all of those things. In fact, I'm being quite reserved about the language I'm using to describe how absurd your beliefs are.
    Really? thats great. Wonderful. Fills me with joy. Now, follow the topic or leave.

    No, it isn't an "obvious rule". You don't get to dictate to other people what they are permitted to disagree with. Thankfully, those days ended many centuries ago, after Christians had already tortured a lot of innocent people to death for challenging their insane beliefs.
    You cannot simply come into an actual debate and begin another one that has nothing to do with the first, it is normal debate etiquette. 
    The damage Christians have done is nothing compared to what they have done to Christians. 

    I've explained how language works once. I'm not repeating myself just because you're too arrogant to listen.
    I've explained how grammar works, I'm glad you've admitted you were wrong. 

    Well, I'm not a deeply mentally ill religious fundamentalist who thinks anyone that holds different beliefs is an enemy, so it's a bit of a loaded question. That said, congratulations on justifying terrorism. We're all really proud.
    Who is 'we'? You cannot compare something God said personally to the people, to a belief that has no ground. God gave the people many chances to repent and they continued killing each other and committing horrible crimes. 

    God doesn't punish anybody you absolute lunatic. You can't torture and kill people, then blame your imaginary friend for your own behaviour. What is actually wrong with your mind?

    God punishes the wicked. That is a fact. I never said i could, i simply said God could do whatever he pleased with his creation. 

    Please get help. You're insane.
    please consider getting saved

    ProudToBeCatholic
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    did you read the reasons for these? or did you completely skip over the perfectly reasonable explanations for the verses? 
    ProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  

    Wait, are you actually agreeing that we should stone adulterers to death, burn the daughters of preachers at the stake for having sex, murder our own children for being disrespectful, kill homosexuals, kill our own brothers for converting to Islam and beat our slaves?

    What is actually WRONG with you?

    You are a danger to society. You and everyone else who believes this absolute crap.

    In the Old Covenant that was the law God laid out for the Israelites so yes, it was perfectly justified. Now we are under the law of grace and these OT laws are fulfilled in Christ. God divorced the Israelites from the Old Covenant and established a new one. For that reason, we do not follow many of those laws, for they are fulfilled in Christ and in turn, in us, when we accept Him into our lives. The Old Testament laws were never abolished, but they were fulfilled. Remember that.
    So no, I do not believe we should do any of that now, for (a) we do not live in a theocracy, a nation governed by God, and (b) we are under the New Covenant, with a new set of commandments, and these commandments are 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. On these hinge all the Law and the Prophets.' (Matthew 22:36-40)
    Do I believe these things are sin that leads to spiritual death? Yes. Adultery, fornication, disrespect of parents, homosexuality, and idolatry are sins that will kill your soul and send you to the lake of fire. But we let God punish this behavior because we understand that we do not live in a theocracy as the Israelites did. Also, to put things in perspective for you, remember that anytime we see these laws actually being enforced, it is the governing leaders of the country who either give the order or kill the offender themself. It was never intended to mean that if any random stranger sees someone committing one of these sins, they were to kill them. It was the government's job. But regardless, for all the aforementioned reasons, no, we do not kill people for their sin, for that was the old law and the old law is fulfilled in the new, namely, Christ Jesus.
    Cat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    We are trying to have a debate about Sola Fide on this thread. We are not talking about the existence of God. You can create a new thread for that. Now please, stop messing up the thread. We were beginning a good discussion before you came and told me I lost the argument already simply because I said the opposing view had a great argument but I disagree with it. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SOLA FIDE; THE EXISTENCE OF GOD IS NOT SOLA FIDE. SOLA FIDE MEANS 'FAITH ALONE' AS I STATED IN MY INITIAL POST. MAYBE YOU WERE CONFUSED BUT NOW THAT YOU KNOW, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD OR TELL ME TO START A THREAD ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
    Cat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Cat
    You believe our God does not exist, this is evident.

    And your belief that this is "irrational" evidences that you have serious mental health problems. It is not irrational to reject belief in something which you have no evidence exists. 

    There is tons of proof that these incidents happened

    Laughable. Get help.

    Im sorry you are mentally incapable of imagining that something other than what you can see exists. 

    I'm sorry that you believe imagining things is evidence that they exist. I imagine the universe was created by a giant inflatable duck. Does that make it real?

    It is the focus of this debate nonetheless, I'm sorry, but whether you believe if God exists or not has nothing to do with this discussion

    It has everything to do with this discussion, because you're arguing about how to achieve salvation from God, and God doesn't exist. Hence, your discussion is absurd.

    I do not care what you call me

    Now you're brazenly contradicting yourself. You've literally just told me you were offended at being called a nutter.

    If you were actually reading the debate, you would have seen that their views on salvation opposed each other.

    If you actually read the passage you quoted, you would have seen that it explains they do not oppose each other. They both accept the absurd premise that God is real. If two flat Earthers have a debate about the thickness of the Earth, they aren't opposing each other in any meaningful sense, and the exact same principle applies here. 

    That is like debating whether president Kennedy's run was beneficial and someone randomly coming in and saying he never died.

    Don't make me laugh. President Kennedy was a real person whose existence is evidenced by millions of witnesses and numerous TV and radio broadcasts. His death is evidenced by numerous news reports, official medical records and a coroner's report. The existence of your make-believe space fairy is evidenced by literally nothing. As false analogies go, that is probably the single most absurd example I have ever had the misfortune of encountering in my entire natural life.

    Really? thats great. Wonderful. Fills me with joy. Now, follow the topic or leave

    You don't seem to be following along, so let me repeat myself for the third time. You don't dictate to me what I am permitted to disagree with. I disagree profoundly with the ludicrous premise upon which your topic is based, and if you have a problem with that then tough luck. You're not going to bully me like you bullied civilisation for two thousand years.

    You cannot simply come into an actual debate and begin another one

    You're misrepresenting factual reality again. I'm in this debate disagreeing with its core premise. I don't have to accept the premise that God is real, and if you don't like it then tough goddamned luck.

    The damage Christians have done is nothing compared to what they have done to Christians.

    I spent fifteen minutes quoting all the passages of the Bible ordering Christians to kill people, including their own brothers, mothers and sons. The bloody history of Christianity speaks for itself pal. You are not the victims. You are the aggressors.

    I've explained how grammar works

    Listen you delusional semi-wit, abstract nouns don't have feelings. You don't understand grammar and you don't understand the difference between objective reality and fantasy.

    Who is 'we'? 

    All the people who read your bizarre attempted justification of terrorism, torture and murder. The very fact that you genuinely believe the daughters of priests should be burned to death at the stake simply for having natural sexual relations with a man is irrefutable proof that you are dangerously mentally ill.

    God punishes the wicked.

    Oh just stop talking. You're literally mad. God punishes the wicked? Is that why 10 year old kids die of cancer and war criminals ride off into the sunset? Did God punish all the Catholic Priests who got busted sexually abusing kids, or did the Catholic Church quietly move them to other posts?

    Get help, you mad, mad lunatic.



    DeeProudToBeCatholic
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic



    We are trying to have a debate about Sola Fide on this thread

    Yes you are but it's a debate site meaning anyone can contribute,  what is your problem?

    . We are not talking about the existence of God

    But you actually are, would you like  me to explain this to you.?

    . You can create a new thread for that. Now please, stop messing up the thread.

    Please stop attempting to talk down to Nom because  he challenged  your nonsense 

    We were beginning a good discussion before you came and told me I lost the argument already simply because I said the opposing view had a great argument but I disagree with it. 

    You lost the argument accept your beating like a man.


    THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SOLA FIDE; THE EXISTENCE OF GOD IS NOT SOLA FIDE.

    The existence of a god is a" belief" held by the delusional which is a mental health condition that needs treatment. 

    SOLA FIDE MEANS 'FAITH ALONE' AS I STATED IN MY INITIAL POST. MAYBE YOU WERE CONFUSED BUT NOW THAT YOU KNOW, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD OR TELL ME TO START A THREAD ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

    Please stop  typing you're clearly mentally unbalanced.  


    NomenclatureProudToBeCatholicCat
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    what is your problem?

    Hi Dee. Aside from obvious mental illness I think his/her problem is the idea that other people are allowed to disagree with what he/she believes. After all, the Bible does say that's an offence punishable by death.

    But you actually are, would you like  me to explain this to you.?

    Lol. It's endearing isn't it. 

    Does God want this or does he want that? 

    Um, God isn't real. 

    STICK TO THE TOPIC OR GET OUT! 

    Lmao.

    ProudToBeCatholicCat
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    And your belief that this is "irrational" evidences that you have serious mental health problems. It is not irrational to reject belief in something which you have no evidence exists. 
    If you wish for me to begin to list all the evidence which points to a creator. create a new thread and tag me, but don't come here and begin blundering like a fool and expect everyone to humor you. 

    I'm sorry that you believe imagining things is evidence that they exist. I imagine the universe was created by a giant inflatable duck. Does that make it real?
    You can believe that a giant inflatable bird rules the universe, the difference between you and me is that I have evidence for my claims, whereas you have nothing.

    It has everything to do with this discussion, because you're arguing about how to achieve salvation from God, and God doesn't exist. Hence, your discussion is absurd.
    read your statement again. salvation from God, not the existence of God. 

    Now you're brazenly contradicting yourself. You've literally just told me you were offended at being called a nutter.
    it is sad you believe anyone could be offended by your sad beliefs, it only inspires pity in me. I said you were offending our Christian views, but I am not offended. Go on, keep humoring me. 

    If you actually read the passage you quoted, you would have seen that it explains they do not oppose each other. They both accept the absurd premise that God is real. If two flat Earthers have a debate about the thickness of the Earth, they aren't opposing each other in any meaningful sense, and the exact same principle applies here. 
    Must I really have to explain everything to you? the topic is Sola Fide vs Faith+works. 

    Don't make me laugh. President Kennedy was a real person whose existence is evidenced by millions of witnesses and numerous TV and radio broadcasts. His death is evidenced by numerous news reports, official medical records and a coroner's report. The existence of your make-believe space fairy is evidenced by literally nothing. As false analogies go, that is probably the single most absurd example I have ever had the misfortune of encountering in my entire natural life.

    See, I never said president Kennedy wasn't real, in my example, someone argued he had not died. Wow, impressive, you managed to miss the entire point of what I said. The point of whether Kennedy died or not had nothing to do with the topic being discussed. 

    You don't seem to be following along, so let me repeat myself for the third time. You don't dictate to me what I am permitted to disagree with. I disagree profoundly with the ludicrous premise upon which your topic is based, and if you have a problem with that then tough luck. You're not going to bully me like you bullied civilisation for two thousand years.
    Quit acting like a literal child and respect the debate topic at hand. If you continue to argue about topics that no one asked about, you will simply be ignored.
    You're misrepresenting factual reality again. I'm in this debate disagreeing with its core premise. I don't have to accept the premise that God is real, and if you don't like it then tough goddamned luck.
    The core premise here is Salvation, not your concerning lack of faith in something so obvious. Is English your 7th language? Or are you simply illiterate? 

    I spent fifteen minutes quoting all the passages of the Bible ordering Christians to kill people, including their own brothers, mothers and sons. The bloody history of Christianity speaks for itself pal. You are not the victims. You are the aggressors.
    Waste of time, a quick look at the context of those verses would have answered your concerns. Simply look up martyrs, and you will find millions. Christians are oppressed in tons of countries where the faith is illegal. 

    Listen you delusional semi-wit, abstract nouns don't have feelings. You don't understand grammar and you don't understand the difference between objective reality and fantasy.
    You don't seem to be able to form coherent thoughts, I never said nouns had feelings. 
     
    All the people who read your bizarre attempted justification of terrorism, torture and murder. The very fact that you genuinely believe the daughters of priests should be burned to death at the stake simply for having natural sexual relations with a man is irrefutable proof that you are dangerously mentally ill.
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but everyone here agrees with me, you are on a Christian topic. Now, for your concern about fornication not deserving punishment: luckily for you, the New Testament changed this law, and though still a sin, the death penalty is no longer required. 
    The fact that you refuse to accept literal heaven tells me you need urgent therapy. 

    Oh just stop talking. You're literally mad. God punishes the wicked? Is that why 10 year old kids die of cancer and war criminals ride off into the sunset? Did God punish all the Catholic Priests who got busted sexually abusing kids, or did the Catholic Church quietly move them to other posts?

    Get help, you mad, mad lunatic.
    Most sins will have consequences. Cancer is an illness, not something a wicked person gets. We do not know the plans of God, but his will is perfect. Now, the wicked will always be punished. One day they are celebrating but the next day they are dead. If they do not receive their punishment here they will in hell. 

    Seek God, you poor, poor soul. 
    NomenclatureProudToBeCatholic
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Cat
    If you wish for me to begin to list all the evidence which points to a creator. create a new thread and tag me
    Look, you truly delusional person, if there were a single piece of evidence that God exists then you wouldn't need to have "faith", because you could simply rely on the evidence to prove people wrong. Everything which you believe is self-contradictory and dumb.
    You can believe that a giant inflatable bird rules the universe, the difference between you and me is that I have evidence for my claims
    No, the difference between you and I is that I am only joking, whereas you genuinely believe the universe was created by a space fairy. You have zero evidence for the existence of this space fairy, and the fact that you have convinced yourself otherwise is a symptom of your mental illness. 
    read your statement again. salvation from God, not the existence of God. 
    Oh goodness this is simply impossible because you have the intelligence of a mildly dyslexic gnat. Salvation from God necessitates the existence of God. Please read that back very slowly until it finally penetrates that rock thick, circa 13th century skull.
    it is sad you believe anyone could be offended by your sad beliefs
    Please at least try to stop contradicting yourself. The very first words you wrote to me were: "You have done nothing but offend." 
    Must I really have to explain everything to you?
    No, just the things I ask you to explain. Like how Jesus beat rigor mortis and gravity.
    See, I never said president Kennedy wasn't real
    Your analogy was inaccurate and dumb then, wasn't it?
    Quit acting like a literal child 
    You're the one who believes in invisible space fairies, not me. I grew up.

    Sorry, I'm done with this conversation. I can't deal with your ludicrous irrationality and absence of anything even vaguely resembling intellect. 



    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Addressing your response to @Cat,

     

    And your belief that this is "irrational" evidences that you have serious mental health problems. It is not irrational to reject belief in something which you have no evidence exists.

    But there is evidence that God exists and that Christ indeed rose from the dead. Hold that thought though because I am working on preparing a thread to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the resurrection of Jesus is indeed historically provable and in fact, there is such a great amount of evidence for it that anybody, when presented with the facts, will have to do one of two things:

    1.       Admit they were wrong and at least entertain the thought that since Jesus claimed He would rise from the dead and did, maybe His claims about His divinity are true as well.

    2.       Attempt to explain away the obvious and make themselves a fool in the process.

    But as I said, hold that thought, and I will create that thread soon.

     

    I'm sorry that you believe imagining things is evidence that they exist. I imagine the universe was created by a giant inflatable duck. Does that make it real?

    There is a difference between the two. I cannot prove the universe was created by a giant inflatable duck. I can prove at the very least that Jesus Christ did indeed rise from the dead. You claim that @Cat ‘s example of President Kennedy is irrational? You just compared belief in God to belief that the universe was created by a giant inflatable duck. A double standard, maybe?

     

    If you actually read the passage you quoted, you would have seen that it explains they do not oppose each other. They both accept the absurd premise that God is real. If two flat Earthers have a debate about the thickness of the Earth, they aren't opposing each other in any meaningful sense, and the exact same principle applies here.

    On the contrary, if two flat earthers are debating in a thread that is actually about the thickness of the earth, I do not have the right to go in and argue that the Earth is not flat at all. That would be disrespectful, for that is not following the conversation. You would suck at a real debate. You don’t get to change the topic of the debate and expect other people to acquiesce to the change. This topic is about whether Sola Fide is true or not, not about the existence of God. If you believe we are delusional, let us debate two opposing views within our ‘delusional mindsets’. Remember when you treat us like we are for our belief in God, that you probably believe you evolved from a monkey or some primordial soup or something like that.

     

    Don't make me laugh. President Kennedy was a real person whose existence is evidenced by millions of witnesses and numerous TV and radio broadcasts. His death is evidenced by numerous news reports, official medical records and a coroner's report. The existence of your make-believe space fairy is evidenced by literally nothing. As false analogies go, that is probably the single most absurd example I have ever had the misfortune of encountering in my entire natural life.

    Guess what? Jesus Christ’s death is evidenced by millions of eyewitnesses and numerous ancient writings from the Romans themselves, as well as other secular historians who lived in the first and second centuries. Furthermore, we have ancient, recorded history of the darkness that came over the Earth when Jesus died, as described in the Bible. Coincidence? I think not. I will show you beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt that Christ died and rose from the dead in the new thread I am preparing.

     

    I spent fifteen minutes quoting all the passages of the Bible ordering Christians to kill people, including their own brothers, mothers and sons. The bloody history of Christianity speaks for itself pal. You are not the victims. You are the aggressors.

    The Christians are not the aggressors. You need to look at the circumstances surrounding each of those events. Give me a Bible verse; ONE BIBLE VERSE NOT FIFTY, and I will explain to you the circumstances surrounding it and why it is perfectly justified. If you want to reference the bloody history of Christianity, you need to tell me what era of history you are speaking of. If you would like to talk about the Catholic Church during the Crusades, I would be happy to. If you want to talk about any other era at all, give me a specific event and I will happily talk it over with you. Instead of making wild claims and then dumping a bunch of Bible verses like they somehow prove your point, give me coherent statements that I can work with. Then, I will be happy to talk it over with you, alright? I can assure you though, what you claim is the ‘bloody history’ of Christianity, if you are referencing either the OT times or later, is not all it seems. First, you need to check your sources and make sure they are not biased. Second, you need to look at both sides of the argument. There are many Catholics, myself included, who can provide good explanations for things that are either attributed to the Catholic church or that the Catholic Church, or members within it, actually did. There was some wickedness done by people claiming to be Christians, but other Christians always condemned those actions. Christians have experienced persecution in astronomical amounts compared to anything they have ever done.

    Punishing crime because God says to is not in any way unjust. It is no more unjust than us punishing crime today. And remember, God gave the authority to do these things to the rulers of Israel, not the common man. This is not bloody history as you are proposing but rather, it is the command of a just God who punishes sin.

    And what about the fact that God commanded the deaths of little children and infants? I explained this to @21CenturyIconoclast already. God has the right to kill anybody He wants. He had the Israelites go in and kill everybody in the nations He commanded them to take over. Why did He do this? Well, one great explanation is that the children would revolt against the Israelites when they grew older and start a rebellion in Israel. God, envisioning this, told them to kill everyone, including infants and children. Whatever the reason may be, God is the giver of life, and He can also take life whenever He pleases. God has appointed the time, from the moment of your birth, when you will die (Psalm 139:16; Hebrews 9:27) God is not unjust in choosing the time you will die for you are His creation. I would refer to Romans 9 if you want to read more about this. But God is not unjust for using His people to drive out wicked nations and kill everybody in them. He did not just kill them because He is bloodthirsty, for He gave even the wicked Amorites 400 years to repent before He slew them. (Genesis 15:16) He does so because He is just and because the nations rebelled against Him in committing wicked things such as human sacrifice and idolatry. He even sent His own people into exile and had many of them slain by other nations when they rebelled and committed these same sins.

    Cat
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    Yes you are but it's a debate site meaning anyone can contribute,  what is your problem?

    Notice what you said. Anyone can ‘contribute’. You are not contributing to the debate by bringing in irrelevant topics. Now, I know you will jump on that statement and try and say it is relevant because you and Nom are undermining the very premise of the question, but that is still not what the debate is about. It is about Sola Fide vs. Faith and works. You believe God is a fantasy so to you, this is like me starting a thread asking if Frog is nicer than Toad in the children’s books. It would be for you to come in and say ‘Neither of them exist’. That would be irrelevant. If you truly believe God is a myth, why are you so intent on proving Him wrong? What is your purpose in persisting in staying on this thread if it is just a fairy tale to you? And furthermore, you can easily start another thread and I would be happy to debate these topics on there. I simply ask that you not discuss these things on this thread. So what is your problem?

     

    But you actually are, would you like  me to explain this to you.?

    No we are not. We are talking about an element of Christian theology. The fact that God exists is an element of this, yes, but that is not what we are debating. We are debating an element of Christianity and just as nobody should bring in another element of Christianity, such as purgatory, baptism, sacraments, etc. neither should you bring in the existence of God. They all rely on each other, yes, but we are debating Sola Fide in isolation from any other doctrine. How do you guys not understand this? Even if none of us here believed the Bible, we could still debate this topic from the Bible, and it would have nothing to do with the existence of God or not. Learn what the words ‘element’ and ‘isolation’ mean.

     

    Please stop attempting to talk down to Nom because  he challenged  your nonsense

    I did not talk down to Nom. I simply asked him to move his objections to another thread. And keep in mind, he did not come on to this thread to say God does not exist. He came on this thread to tell me I lost the argument against @Just_Sayin simply because I told him he made a good argument. He did not challenge my views until later.

     

    You lost the argument accept your beating like a man.

    Explain to me how I lost the argument and which argument I lost. The Sola Fide debate or the debate about the existence of God that I have not even entertained? If you are speaking of the Sola Fide debate, explain to me how I lost that debate. If you are speaking of the existence of God, I never even engaged in the debate so there is no way whatsoever I lost it.

     

    The existence of a god is a" belief" held by the delusional which is a mental health condition that needs treatment.

    Now, explain to me what authority you appeal to in order to make a brazen statement such as this one? Are you appealing to your own intellect? I would be a fool to trust your intellect. Do you appeal to ‘science’? I can provide living examples of miracles today that defy our current understanding of science, such as the Eucharistic miracles we see today that even secular scientists cannot figure out. Can you prove to me by science that there is no God? On what grounds do you propose that the existence of a god is a belief held by the delusional which is a mental health condition that needs treatment? You made the claim, the burden of proof rests on you to back it up.

     

    Please stop  typing you're clearly mentally unbalanced. 

    Explain. You really enjoy throwing out unsubstantiated claims, don’t you? Why don’t you provide facts for your claims, or at the very least, examples? Unless you believe that by my asking someone to start a new thread to debate the existence of God and even offering to start my own, I am mentally unbalanced, in which case I would once again say, you don’t make any sense.

    Cat
  • CatCat 65 Pts   -  
    Look, you truly delusional person, if there were a single piece of evidence that God exists then you wouldn't need to have "faith", because you could simply rely on the evidence to prove people wrong. Everything which you believe is self-contradictory and dumb.
    The evidence merely fuels my faith. You have faith in gravity and it's existence. it is obvious but you still have faith in it, this is why you don't jump off cliffs and expect to survive. You have faith in doctors and what they do. Why? Because science, fact and repeated experimental success have proved their credibility. Likewise, with God, all the evidence fuels my faith in him. My faith in his faithfulness and his perfect will. 

    No, the difference between you and I is that I am only joking, whereas you genuinely believe the universe was created by a space fairy. You have zero evidence for the existence of this space fairy, and the fact that you have convinced yourself otherwise is a symptom of your mental illness. 
    Do you truly believe, with all the evidence of a creator in your face, that God does not exist? Despite the spiritual realm being real, you still do not believe? 

    oh goodness this is simply impossible because you have the intelligence of a mildly dyslexic gnat. Salvation from God necessitates the existence of God. Please read that back very slowly until it finally penetrates that rock thick, circa 13th century skull.
    even a mildly dyslexic gnat would be able to distinguish these two subjects from one another. seriously, are you really having trouble between the difference of 'how to get saved' and 'is God real'? 

    Please at least try to stop contradicting yourself. The very first words you wrote to me were: "You have done nothing but offend." 
    the fact that you have offended my views does not mean i am offended by you. There is a difference between slandering someone, and the person feeling slandered.  The fact remains that you have done nothing but criticize, have you thought about providing actual insightful input to the discussion? 

    No, just the things I ask you to explain. Like how Jesus beat rigor mortis and gravity.

    Are you actually asking what makes a miracle a miracle? He is God, do you really believe physics can stop him?

    Your analogy was inaccurate and dumb then, wasn't it?
    Only your ability to somehow miss the entire point is unintelligent. I will explain one more time, it is like coming to a presidential debate and randomly arguing that presidents shouldn't exist and we should have kings. Your argument would be completely out of place and you would probably be asked to stay on topic or leave. 

    You're the one who believes in invisible space fairies, not me. I grew up.

    I feel so sorry for you, your mind has stayed small, and you have not thought of something beyond this mortal life. Find God. 

    Sorry, I'm done with this conversation. I can't deal with your ludicrous irrationality and absence of anything even vaguely resembling intellect. 
    Oh the irony, thank you for giving me something to laugh about 


    ProudToBeCatholicNomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    But there is evidence that God exists

    There is zero evidence that God exists. None. You are completely delusional and hence you contradict yourself every two minutes like all religious nutbags do. In your opening post you claimed:-

    The Bible clearly teaches faith 

    Why would the Bible need to teach faith if there is evidence its claims are true? It teaches faith because there is no evidence its claims are true.


    ProudToBeCatholic
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Cat
    The evidence merely fuels my faith. You have faith in gravity and it's existence

    Just stop. You are completely delusional. I don't have faith in gravity. I know gravity exists because there is a wealth of scientific evidence that it exists. There are precise formulas for calculating the effect of gravity on matter and energy and there are thousands of real world experiments which consistently demonstrate the accuracy of these formulas. Conversely, there is zero scientific evidence that God exists, so you can make false claims about "evidence" until you are blue in the face if you like, but it won't change the objective reality that you are writing utterly delusional rubbish. The things you are writing make it abundantly clear that you are mentally unbalanced.

    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    Jesus Christ’s death is evidenced by millions of eyewitnesses

    That's interesting, given that the entire population of the Roman Empire, from Spain to Asia, is only estimated to have been between 45-80 million people. Did they all drop what they were doing and travel thousands of miles to attend the crucifixion of a Jewish carpenter?

    There is something quite critically wrong with the way your mind works. 

    Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All 

    https://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christian-Myths-Jesus-Existed/dp/0557709911
    CatProudToBeCatholic
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Nomenclature,

    There is zero evidence that God exists. None. You are completely delusional and hence you contradict yourself every two minutes like all religious nutbags do. In your opening post you claimed:-The Bible clearly teaches faith Why would the Bible need to teach faith if there is evidence its claims are true? It teaches faith because there is no evidence its claims are true.

     

     

    Faith does not mean lack of evidence. I do not have mere faith that God exists. I know for a fact that God exists because I have felt His power in my life, seen His power in others lives, and seen much more evidence that God does indeed exist than that there is no God and I came from a monkey or some soup or a big bang. What do I have faith in? I have faith in God that He will save me. I have faith that the promises He has given me will come to pass. And I believe that that faith must be accompanied by works, because God demands obedience and if we want the things we put our faith in, we must obey Him. I do not believe faith alone, remember that please.

  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Nomenclature,

    That's interesting, given that the entire population of the Roman Empire, from Spain to Asia, is only estimated to have been between 45-80 million people. Did they all drop what they were doing and travel thousands of miles to attend the crucifixion of a Jewish carpenter? There is something quite critically wrong with the way your mind works. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All  https://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christian-Myths-Jesus-Existed/dp/0557709911

     

    Congratulations. You pointed out a mistake in a number I wrote. Fact is, many witnessed Christ’s death and I apologize I exaggerated that number unintentionally. I have been writing these responses practically all day long and it is expected that I would make a small mistake at some point. I will redact that statement and change it. Thank you for pointing that out, by the way.

     

    You just gave me the link to a book on Amazon. All you said with that post is what I already know, that some people don’t believe Jesus ever existed. They are on the wrong side of history and are clearly ignorant, as I shall show in a future thread.

  • Dr_BatmanDr_Batman 2160 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    Argument Topic: Is the Doctrine of Sola Fide (Justification by Faith Alone) Biblical?

    @ProudToBeCatholic
    No. It is not, it is somewhat put into it's own words but outside the Bible. This isn't what Jesus taught.

    Here is why.  First, it was written by a man. Second, there is evidence in the Bible obviously said by James the Apostle aka James the Just that Faith without Works is dead. Third, Sola Fide is not exactly what James nor Jesus meant. Lastly, Martin Luther just wanted the roman church to reform to be better and more Christ centered but up till today, it is still full of hypocrisy, pride, greed, golden statues, idols and worthless trinkets that God and Jesus DO NOT CARE ABOUT. IN FACT, IT ANGERS JESUS BECAUSE REMEMBER WHEN HE WENT INTO THE TEMPLE AND PEOPLE WERE SELLING STUFF FOR MONEY? YEAH, HOLY GROUNDS OF WORSHIP ARE NOT FOR MAKING MONEY. "Sacred relics" are not what Jesus taught because He taught the opposite. To love the things of this world means you have no love of the Father nor Jesus within you. Jesus meant lust for money and power instead of being humble, kind and generous. 

    Usually, people do indeed take this out of context and assume that means, "Oh so you are saved by your works not just your faith?"

    Nay. It's like this. If you do not present yourself as a devoted servant of Christ and just remain idle, even when bad things happen, that's not correct and it's not God's will. Yes we are given free will and agency but that doesn't mean we are free from consequences. There is no salvation within the roman church and if you say otherwise, you are invalidated. I will deny the pope for he isn't the vicar of Christ and I will continue to destroy roman catholicism for it's falsehood and it's persecution of innocence throughout all the centuries. The vatican will burn and will fall. Also, the roman catholic church isn't the true church nor the original ministry that Jesus placed on this earth. The roman church didn't exist until the 3rd to 5th centuries. The original ministry of Christ existed in the first century and He already developed a church community with elders and deacons. The Apostle Paul spoke of this in the New Testament. If you prove to be somewhat violent, that's also not okay and ofc you need to seek forgiveness from God for that and accept responsibilities if it is severe such as murder and abortion. There is one part of the Bible where Paul says something about people being saved not for their righteous deeds, and instead it was for their willingness to go unto Christ and beg for His mercy because they either committed crimes or whatever they felt was wrong, felt guilty about it and needed love, forgiveness and mercy from Christ Himself. Jesus obviously healed and forgave them because His forgiveness is eternally given except if people blaspheme against the Holy Ghost and if people deny the Father and the Son, they will be equally denied back. That's what I call celestial double standards. Even God and Jesus has this logical rule up their sleeves. Don't confuse this with what James was saying. Each of the Twelve Apostles were teaching a different lesson. Do not mix and match, even though all of them were teaching important stuff that are linked towards what Jesus wanted and had spoken about. Remember the part where Jesus had spoken about loving your neighbors and loving your enemies as well. That counts as a work for Christ not your own works. If you follow your own thoughts and do your own works based on what YOU THINK, it isn't going to get you saved. YOU MUST FOLLOW WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT AND THAN YOUR FAITH WILL BE JUSTIFIED BY YOUR WORKS FOR GOD NOT FOR YOURSELF. For example, doing missionary work is one of these things. Jesus did command us all to spread His Gospel to all nations. Now alot of mainstreamers who are protestant are claiming Baptism isn't important anymore. This isn't true. Jesus had specifically said, "A man cannot enter thy Kingdom of God unless he be reborn by water and of the spirit!" 

    What did this verse mean? What does it still mean today? To officially become a follower of Christ, you MUST BE REBORN FROM BAPTISM BY FULL IMMERSION IN WATER JUST AS JOHN THE BAPTIST DID WHEN JESUS ASKED HIM TO BAPTIZE HIM. not sprinkles of water over the head. This is another thing the catholics have all wrong. They also mixed in paganism and mystic rituals with the Sabbath? Not what Jesus taught. Jesus was indeed Jewish and He studied in the Temple during the ancient Biblical days. When Jesus was baptized, He saw the Holy Spirit in a form of a dove descend down upon him and the voice of Heavenly Father speak to him, saying, "Behold my beloved Son whom I am so proud of!"

    That shows that Jesus is also separate from the Father in Heaven and remains the Only Begotten Son of God. You do not repeat prayers nor pray to Mary nor pray to Saints. It is idolatry if you do that. We pray to God the Father and than end the prayer in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. For no man goes unto the Father except through Jesus Christ and therefore, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God. So your works do count as something you'd be judged for. All things good and all things bad included ofc. It's not what gets you saved. Primarily, faith and grace through the Atonement of Jesus Christ is what gives you Salvation. Your works based on what He wants not what you want is what helps build your faith and it is what keeps you strong. So for example, being a good Samaritan besides spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ; Clothing the poor, helping the sick etc. These are things you can do to show you are much like Jesus. You obviously can't perform miracles like He could. Now, the Bible supports the works that we would be doing, the works that Jesus basically did. In the Epistle of John, Jesus spoke of how we would do works as He did, even greater works because He goes unto His Father in Heaven. The purpose behind these works which are upon His command is to glorify God and Christ, it is to make them happy. So going to church, keeping the Sabbath Day Holy, that's another one. Keeping and Obeying His commandments is another work of God that we believers of Christ MUST REMEMBER TO DO. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know Jesus and God lives. I know that the Holy Spirit is within me. There is indeed Salvation and it only comes from God and Christ. It does not come from man, therefore the pope is once again debunked from the picture. Jesus said to the Romans, "You shall never believe lest you see a miracle happen before your eyes."

    This means, the Roman Catholics will never believe until that Day of Judgement and for all the wickedness they have done....I can't say it's going to be a happy ending unless you quit your hubristic behavior and HUMBLE YOURSELVES BEFORE GOD AND CHRIST NOT BEFORE THE FALSE POPES, NOT BEFORE MARY AND NOT BEFORE THE SAINTS. The current pope has said that homosexuality is a sin but isn't a crime. This only shows that his works have proven false and misleading. It doesn't glorify God. It glorifies himself. I DENOUNCE ALL POPES FROM ALL ACROSS HISTORY. THEIR WORKS HAVE BEEN PROVEN DEAD AND SO HAS THEIR SO CALLED FAITH!!!

    The Godhead is absolute for all three members of it are separate for one purpose. The nicene trinity will be further destroyed because it is unbiblical. "I and the Father are one" is a verse taken out of context for trinitarian paganistic "Christians" to assume Jesus is God when He clearly prays to the Father and talks to Him several times, even before dying on the cross, which proves He and the Father share purpose and power but not the same embodiment. John had a vision of seeing Jesus on the right hand side of God the Father Himself upon His eternal throne in Heaven. Again, the Bible proves certain roman catholic doctrines to be false.

    My testimony in Jesus Christ remains unbroken and if anyone says otherwise, they will be destroyed by their own self destructive strawman nature. I have spoken absolute objective universal truths. Anyone who speaks "anti mormon" statements are automatically debunked and have no salvation within themselves. False accusations towards me such as "pride" or "wrath" etc will be debunked and redirected towards all trolls who DO NOT GLORIFY GOD AND INSTEAD GLORIFY THEMSELVES AND LIE BEFORE GOD!
    The_LoremasterVictor_van_HelsingProudToBeCatholic
  • @ProudToBeCatholic


    ProudToBeCatholic,
     whose mantra is; "Do not cherry-pick biblical passages, even though they are inspired by Jesus, that totally embarrasses me and my primitive thinking Bronze and Iron Age Catholic Religion,” and is the number one king of using ungodly EISIGENSIS in trying to rewrite Jesus' actual literal words, and the number one Bible Apologist that twists himself into a pretzel to "try" and change Jesus' disturbing and despicable inspired words,

    PROUNDTOBECATHOLIC LYING QUOTES WITHIN HIS OWN THREAD STATING THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND NOT GOD!: 

    1. “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him

    2. “So we will be saved in the sense that we will inherit eternal life and the gift that God has promised us through Christ His Son when we have left this world and go to be with the Lord.”

    3. “How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, ……”


    At what point does this Religion Forum accept beyond all doubt, that ProudToBeCatholic is one of the most Bible ignorant and pseudo-christians that this forum has ever seen?  In his quotes above, he actually had the audacity to slap Jesus in the face and call him just the "son of God," whereas explicitly shown within Jesus' inspired words within the scriptures, JESUS IS THE HEBREW SERIAL KILLER YAHWEH GOD INCARNATE!


    NEXT BIBLE PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "PROUDTOBECATHOLIC" THAT DEMEANS AND DENIES JESUS' TRUE MODUS OPERANDI AS THE CHRISTIAN GOD, WILL BE ... ?

    .

    ProudToBeCatholicVictor_van_Helsing
  • @Dr_Batman


    Dr_Batman,

    YOUR QUOTE THAT LEAVES THE DOOR OPEN TO MAKE YOUR MORON, EXCUSE ME, "MORMON" FAITH, ONE OF THE MOST UNGODLY DIVISIONS OF CHRISTIANITY THERE COULD BE:
    "Anyone who speaks "anti mormon" statements are automatically debunked and have no salvation within themselves. "

    How much time do you have to be made the Bible fool because of your MORON faith?

    If you have the balls, open a thread relative to your Saturday Night Live Comedy show called; "MORONISM," and we will definitely keep you busy with your laughable faith, that is, subsequent to us regaining our composure after our tearful laughing at MORONISM to begin with!

    Are you game, or are you going to RUN AWAY from your despicable and laughable faith in front of the membership? Remember, you are to at least "try" to defend your MORONISM;  "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9) 


    NEXT MORON THAT HAS TO WEAR "SECRET UNDERWEAR" TO PROVE THEY FOLLOW JOSEPH SMITH'S UNGODLY REWRITE OF CHRISTIANITY, WILL BE ... ?

    .

  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @21CenturyIconoclast

    21 Century Iconoclast,

    Your post: PROUNDTOBECATHOLIC LYING QUOTES WITHIN HIS OWN THREAD STATING THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND NOT GOD!: 1. “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” 2. “So we will be saved in the sense that we will inherit eternal life and the gift that God has promised us through Christ His Son when we have left this world and go to be with the Lord.” 3. “How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, ……”

    I see you have added to my mantra. It is getting quite lengthy LOL!

    I never stated that Jesus is not God. When Jesus says that He is the Son of God, He is referencing the Old Testament. Jesus repeatedly refers to Himself as the ‘Son of God’ but what does this mean? Look at Psalm 2:7, which very clearly speaks of Jesus birth. “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten thee.’ Paul references this in Hebrews when he talks about Jesus as God making atonement for our sins.

    Hebrews 1:1-14- “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?”

    This passage makes it very clear that Jesus God, but that He is also the Son of God. The second person of the Trinity is literally called, ‘The Son of God’. Does that subtract from Him being God? No! It merely means that He took on flesh, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as the Nicene Creed affirms. From where did you get the notion that I was discounting Jesus as God because I called Him the Son of God, when the Scriptures themselves call Him the Son of God while still maintaining the fact that He is God? Notice points one and three that you made. Those are both Scripture passages so all I did was affirm what is written in Scripture and in point two when I called Christ the Son of God, I meant it in the exact same way the two other points did. Quit straw-manning and making me say things I never stated.

    Dr_BatmanVictor_van_Helsing
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    Argument Topic: @Dr_Batman

    @Dr_Batman

    Addressing your statements made against the Catholic Church.

    Your disgusting post:  Martin Luther just wanted the roman church to reform to be better and more Christ centered but up till today, it is still full of hypocrisy, pride, greed, golden statues, idols and worthless trinkets that God and Jesus DO NOT CARE ABOUT

     

    Let’s go through these erroneous accusations you have built upon a false premise one by one. You said the Catholic church is still full of hypocrisy. Give me an example so I have something to work with. Pride? Once again give me an example of the Catholic Church being full of pride. Greed? Give me an example. Now before I address the rest of this disgusting post let me say this. You have committed the logical fallacies of generalization and exaggeration all in one sentence. You claimed the Catholic Church is FULL of hypocrisy, pride, and greed but failed to provide examples that substantiate this claim. Perhaps if you were being honest, you would have written something like, ‘There are hypocrites, prideful people, and greedy people in the Catholic Church’. And to that I would say, look at your own LDS church. If you would like, I can point out countless cases of sexual abuse in the LDS church, including the fact that certain leaders covered up the cases even more so than any Catholic leader ever did. I could go into the fact that time and time again, LDS Churches have been accused of fraud and had to pay millions of dollars in reparations for it. I could go into all the immorality that has happened in the LDS church and then I could state that the entire LDS church is a sexually immoral, child abusing, greedy money embezzling church, but you would not like that, would you? That would not be fair. Rather, you would probably retort, “No, certain members within the LDS church did these things, but they do not reflect the values of the entire Church”. And to that I say amen and amen! There are wicked people within the Catholic Church, the Protestant Church, the LDS Church, and every other church, organization, government, etc. What matters is what the actual beliefs of the group are. So don’t start audaciously claiming the Catholic Church is FULL of hypocrisy, pride, and greed. That is not true. And if you have doctrines the Catholic faith teaches that you believe actually solidifies these claims of yours, let me hear them so we can talk them over. But do not come on here making broad, sweeping generalizations about the Church without substantiating them. Now what about golden statues, idols, and ‘worthless’ trinkets? Nowhere in Scripture is it commanded that we can’t make a statue to remember a great saint who has lived before us. These are not idols. They are merely visual reminders of the great cloud of witnesses who have gone on before us. In order for something to be an idol, you have to worship it. No Catholic will worship anything other than God and if you have ever spoken to Catholics, you know that they would be abhorred by the fact that you believe we do. Worship goes to God alone, not to Mary, not to the saints, only to God as defined by the three-person, one God, hypostatically joined Trinity you reject. The purpose of statues, trinkets(as you call them), and other things like such, are to serve as visual reminders of the Godly lives those before us have lived and to inspire us to live our lives in a holy way as they did. You are, I will assume unintentionally, misrepresenting what the Catholic church teaches. The Catechism of the Catholic church describes idolatry like this: “The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, of silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes but do not see,” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.” God however, is the “living God” who gives life and intervenes in history. Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in the place of God, whether this be gods or demons(for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon”. Many martys died for not adoring “the Beast” refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God. Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who “transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.” (CCC 2112-2114).

    So, no, the Catholic Church does not have idols within it and to claim they do would be to claim the Church violates its own Catechism. Please actually do your research before making wild claims.

     

    Your Post: IN FACT, IT ANGERS JESUS BECAUSE REMEMBER WHEN HE WENT INTO THE TEMPLE AND PEOPLE WERE SELLING STUFF FOR MONEY? YEAH, HOLY GROUNDS OF WORSHIP ARE NOT FOR MAKING MONEY.

    Actually, why did Jesus drive the money changers out of the temple? It was because they had turned his house into a place of merchandise rather than a place of worship. Please don’t tell me you are actually relating this verse to the Catholic Church’s indulgences? Do you even know how indulgences work or are you going off your own brainwashed notion about what the church teaches again? You obviously neglected to do your research, for the Catholic Church has always been against the sale of indulgences. That would fall into the sin of simony, paying money for the gifts that God gives. When Simon attempted to do this, St. Peter told him, “You and your money perish with you.” However, there was abuse from certain Catholic priests who charged money for indulgences, most of which were fake indulgences meant to simply make the priest rich. That was never permitted by the church and the Lateran Council was convened to reign in these abuses, along with drunkenness and promiscuity among clergy members. The Council of Trent even made abuses such as the sale of indulgences worthy of ex-communication from the Church. Now, we can get into the history, such as the controversy surrounding Pope Leo X but I won’t get into that right now for the sake of not writing an even more lengthy essay.

     

    Your Post: There is no salvation within the roman church and if you say otherwise, you are invalidated. I will deny the pope for he isn't the vicar of Christ and I will continue to destroy roman catholicism for it's falsehood and it's persecution of innocence throughout all the centuries. The vatican will burn and will fall.

    By whose claim am I invalidated for converting the Holy Roman Catholic Church? By the views of your polygamous prophet Joseph Smith who didn’t introduce his new religion until April 6th, 1830? He is the one who introduced HERESY into Christianity when he founded this CULT of Mormonism. His views on God and the Trinity are outside of Church history, except for in some heretical groups. That is why the Catholic Church pronounced believing in and affirming the Nicene Creed and professing belief in the Holy trinity as a requirement for salvation. It is because of heretics that the Church ever defines dogma, for it is her duty to protect her children from the Satanic doctrines of demons like Meroni. The doctrine that human beings become angels, as Mormon, the golden tablet writer, supposedly did, or even gods, is nowhere in Scripture nor the sacred deposit of faith handed onto us from the early church fathers, as much as Mormons like to twist their writings to try and say so. You have not destroyed Catholicism in this response at all, but merely made assumptions and sweeping assertions that create strawmen arguments. Have fun trying to destroy the Catholic church, for we have existed since the beginning and as one famous martyr stated before his death to his persecutors, “If we(the Catholic Church) have not destroyed ourselves after all these years, neither can you or anybody else.” It will endure until Christ comes back, despite man’s attempts to destroy it with lies and deceit. And the Vatican will burn and fall? Quit making me laugh.

     

    Your post: the roman catholic church isn't the true church nor the original ministry that Jesus placed on this earth. The roman church didn't exist until the 3rd to 5th centuries. The original ministry of Christ existed in the first century and He already developed a church community with elders and deacons. The Apostle Paul spoke of this in the New Testament

    On the contrary, Jesus established Peter as Pope in Matthew 16:18. People like to try and discount this verse by using the petros/petra argument, but that falls flat, for the word Jesus would have used would’ve been in Aramaic and translated as Cephas, which just means rock. We see the fingerprints of Aramaic all throughout the New Testament and Peter is even referred to as Cephas in John 1:42 and Paul only refers to Peter as Cephas in his writings. So in reality, Matthew 16:18 would be read, “You are rock, and on this rock I will build my Church.” The petros/petras argument falls flat and even a lot of non-catholics acknowledge this fact. Peter was the first pope and the rest of the apostles were given authority with him. We can go into this topic more if you would like, but I really don’t want to spend the next 6 hours writing out the evidence that the Roman Catholic Church was indeed the first Church.

     

    Your post: To officially become a follower of Christ, you MUST BE REBORN FROM BAPTISM BY FULL IMMERSION IN WATER JUST AS JOHN THE BAPTIST DID WHEN JESUS ASKED HIM TO BAPTIZE HIM. not sprinkles of water over the head. This is another thing the catholics have all wrong. They also mixed in paganism and mystic rituals with the Sabbath? Not what Jesus taught.

    Now I agree with you that you must be baptized to be saved, and I also believe that it Is best to be water baptized, but pouring is also a valid form of baptism. The word ‘baptizo’ is not only used for immersion. Luke 11:38 states that, “The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash[baptizo] before dinner.” Mark 7:3-4 states that the Pharisees, “Do not eat unless they wash their hand, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash themselves[baptizo]” Furthermore, Jesus stated that we would be baptized with the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:4-5). He once again used the word ‘baptizo’ but then we see later on that the Holy Spirit was ‘poured’ out on believers on the day of Pentecost(Acts 2:17)(Acts 11:15-17). So no, the word does not only mean to immerse and God is not limited to water deep enough to hold an entire human body. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that you must be immersed. It is just the common way and the way we typically see it done.

     

    You post: That shows that Jesus is also separate from the Father in Heaven and remains the Only Begotten Son of God. You do not repeat prayers nor pray to Mary nor pray to Saints. It is idolatry if you do that. We pray to God the Father and than end the prayer in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. For no man goes unto the Father except through Jesus Christ and therefore, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God

    Jesus is separate from the Father as the only begotten Son of God, however, He is hypostatically joined with the Father and the Holy Ghost. They are all one God, not three different gods. The Bible makes it clear that God is one. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 states “Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” If the Lord is one, how can there be three distinct gods of this universe as well as lesser gods? How can we even expect to have a chance to become gods when we die when God’s word says otherwise? Now, Joseph Smith claims the Bible was corrupted, but that was before the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. Now we know without a doubt that the Old Testament is the exact same one as we have today. God’s word was not corrupted for the gates of hell will never prevail against God’s church. If Satan even managed to corrupt the very word of God that is to guide our lives, then the gates of hell most certainly did prevail. There was no need for some self-proclaimed prophet to come around and ‘resurrect’ the fallen church. And I am not even going into how Joseph Smith changed history, made false predictions about the future, and contradicted what the real Bible says in so many ways, all under the guise of restoring the church.

    On the topic of praying to the saints, we merely ask them to pray for us. We do not ask them for power or anything like that, but we hold to Jesus words that those who are in Him will never see death and that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Therefore, we believe that those believers who have passed on before us can still aid us with their prayers for they are alive in spirit and are among the great cloud of witnesses surrounding us. They are not mini gods or deified beings; merely normal men and women who have lived their lives for God and are now praying for us as we travel on our journeys of faith. I would go into this more, but you have attacked multiple points of Catholicism that we could spend hundreds of hours discussing. Church history, the Bible itself, the tradition of the Church from ancient times, logic, reasoning, and much much more; all come into play with each of these doctrines.

     

    Your post: As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

    No, this is not true. This is a historically false claim and I hope you will respond to this post so we can discuss this further. You have covered way too much ground in one debate and we need to slow down and take each objection one by one.

     

    Your post: There is indeed Salvation and it only comes from God and Christ. It does not come from man, therefore the pope is once again debunked from the picture.

    This is a non-sequitur. You claim that because salvation only comes from God, the Pope is therefore debunked from the picture? Do you even understand Catholicism a little bit? Nobody in the Catholic Church teaches that the pope brings salvation. We affirm the fact that salvation is found only in Jesus, who is God, hypostatically joined with the Father and Son and therefore making one God with three persons. The Pope is there as a father to the church, to guide them according to the Holy Spirit’s leading. He will make mistakes and Catholics will even disagree with him on many points. In fact, I disagree with his light stance on homosexuality. He sugar-coats it too much, I believe. The pope is not impeccable, he is a sinner like the rest of us. However, He is the one who has been handed the keys to the kingdom from Pope Peter all the way down to Pope Francis. Through all of the Popes we have had, evil and good alike, the gates of hell have NEVER prevailed against God’s church. We have always affirmed the same Nicene Creed, the same major doctrines, without faltering, and we always will.

    Dr_BatmanVictor_van_Helsing
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Dr_Batman

    Your Post: Jesus said to the Romans, "You shall never believe lest you see a miracle happen before your eyes." This means, the Roman Catholics will never believe until that Day of Judgement and for all the wickedness they have done....I can't say it's going to be a happy ending unless you quit your hubristic behavior and HUMBLE YOURSELVES BEFORE GOD AND CHRIST NOT BEFORE THE FALSE POPES, NOT BEFORE MARY AND NOT BEFORE THE SAINTS. The current pope has said that homosexuality is a sin but isn't a crime. This only shows that his works have proven false and misleading. It doesn't glorify God. It glorifies himself. I DENOUNCE ALL POPES FROM ALL ACROSS HISTORY. THEIR WORKS HAVE BEEN PROVEN DEAD AND SO HAS THEIR SO CALLED FAITH!!!

    Actually, that is not what that means and is a classic case of taking a verse out of context and committing the fallacy of eisegesis to prove an unfounded point. Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and all others who affirm the Trinity are the ones who are truly following God, not the cult of Mormonism. If you reject the Trinity, you reject Christianity, it’s that simple. And we do indeed humble ourselves before the Trinity. Worship goes to God alone, we surrender our lives to God alone. You are repeatedly mischaracterizing the Catholic Church and putting up strawmen, hopefully ignorantly. And when the Pope said that, he was right. Do you believe that homosexuals should be punished here on Earth? If you do, than I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong. It is not the government’s job to punish a lifestyle choice of an individual. That is God’s job and His alone. It is not a crime, but it is indeed a sin. There is no crime committed and I would be interested in knowing what you believe should be the consequence of homosexuality since you do believe it is a crime. Do you believe we should stone them to death even though God commands us to love our enemies and the Old Covenant punishments no longer apply today, for they are fulfilled in Christ and in the sinner dying to himself? Do you believe we should throw them in prison simply because they are homosexuals? That is against the law of grace God has given us. We are to respect homosexuals, treat them as normal human beings, for that is what they are. They are not murderers, rapists, or anything like that. They are people who I believe are confused about their identity. There is no crime being committed. It is a sin to engage in homosexual acts and that is God’s responsibility to judge and punish, not ours. So that does not show his works are proven false and misleading. TRY AGAIN! And congratulations. You are throwing a temper tantrum against the Catholic church and its popes. I bet you feel like a tough guy, eh? Slandering the Pope and then renouncing all of them, including St. Peter? Nice one.

     

    Your post: The Godhead is absolute for all three members of it are separate for one purpose. The nicene trinity will be further destroyed because it is unbiblical. "I and the Father are one" is a verse taken out of context for trinitarian paganistic "Christians" to assume Jesus is God when He clearly prays to the Father and talks to Him several times, even before dying on the cross, which proves He and the Father share purpose and power but not the same embodiment. John had a vision of seeing Jesus on the right hand side of God the Father Himself upon His eternal throne in Heaven. Again, the Bible proves certain roman catholic doctrines to be false.

    They are not separate Gods, coming together to form one God as you are attempting to assert. They are all the exact same ONE God. You have it backward. They are the same God with three distinct persons. They each have a separate purpose but are still all the same ONE God. God the Father, God the Spirit, God the Son, all the ‘I AM’. There are more verses than “I and the Father are one” that prove the Nicene Trinity is true and I hope we will get the chance to unpack those soon. And John having the vision of Jesus at the right hand of the Father does not show that they are not all the same God. It simply goes to verify my point that God is one, with three distinct persons. Ever seen the Trinitarian Diagram of the Holy Trinity? Notice Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and the Holy Spirit hovers over them both in the form of a dove. They are three separate persons, but still ONE GOD!

     

    Your post: My testimony in Jesus Christ remains unbroken and if anyone says otherwise, they will be destroyed by their own self destructive strawman nature. I have spoken absolute objective universal truths. Anyone who speaks "anti mormon" statements are automatically debunked and have no salvation within themselves. False accusations towards me such as "pride" or "wrath" etc will be debunked and redirected towards all trolls who DO NOT GLORIFY GOD AND INSTEAD GLORIFY THEMSELVES AND LIE BEFORE GOD!

    You have not spoken absolute objective universal truths but have rather (a) straw-manned the Catholic Church on multiple occasions and (b) stated your false beliefs and touted the false prophet Joseph Smith who used his supposed authority to marry teenage girls(Helen Mar Kimball) and be in polygamous relationships that are once again immoral and contradictory to Scripture. 1 Corinthians 7:2, Deuteronomy 17:17, Genesis 2:24(notice it says wife, not wives), Matthew 19:4-6 (notice it says the ‘two’, not four or five or twelve.)

    So no, my statements are not automatically debunked. Nice try, but you are going to have to do more than just say everyone who comes against is automatically debunked. That is not how it works.

    Dr_BatmanVictor_van_Helsing
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic

    Watching you two argue over whose fantasy is the correct fantasy is quite the doozy.
    ProudToBeCatholicDr_Batman
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Fantasy? Atheism sounds like fantasy to me. Where did you come from; a big bang or some chemical reaction, or a Creator? Yeah, that's a hard one LOL
    Dr_Batman
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic
     Atheism sounds like fantasy to me.

    That's because your mind isn't working properly. If I reject your silly, childish stories about a bearded super-fairy, I'm not the one with the fantasy.

    ProudToBeCatholicDr_Batman
  • ProudToBeCatholicProudToBeCatholic 117 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    My mind is working rationally. I look at creation and say, "Someone created this." You look at creation and say, "Wow, a big bang six, nine, or twelve, billion years ago created this." I look at one single human cell that is more advanced than the finest technological machine man has ever created and I say, "Someone must have created this." You look at the human cell and say, "Wow, this came from a big bang or a bacterial soup that 'evolved' over billions of years." Who's mind isn't working properly?
    NomenclatureDr_Batman
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @ProudToBeCatholic
    My mind is working rationally.

    No it isn't. Your statements demonstrate the opposite. 

    I look at creation and say, "Someone created this."

    You're using a logical fallacy called circular reasoning, which is when you qualify a baseless conclusion with the same baseless conclusion (i.e. the world must be flat because otherwise it wouldn't be flat).

    I look at one single human cell that is more advanced than the finest technological machine man has ever created and I say, "Someone must have created this."

    You're using a logical fallacy common among religious fanatics which is the appeal to complexity. What you're not taking into consideration is that complexity is a natural by-product of time. You're viewing reality as a snapshot rather than a 14 billion year video.


    ProudToBeCatholicDr_BatmanVictor_van_Helsing
  • 21CenturyIconoclast21CenturyIconoclast 169 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @ProudToBeCatholic


    ProudToBeCatholic, whose mantra is; "Do not cherry-pick biblical passages, even though they are inspired by Jesus, that totally embarrasses me and my primitive thinking Bronze and Iron Age Catholic Religion,” and is the number one king of using ungodly EISIGENSIS in trying to rewrite Jesus' actual literal words, and the number one Bible Apologist that twists himself into a pretzel to "try" and change Jesus' disturbing and despicable inspired words


    ONCE AGAIN, YOUR COMICAL QUOTE OF JESUS' MODUS OPERANDI:
    "This passage makes it very clear that Jesus God, but that He is also the Son of God. The second person of the Trinity is literally called, ‘The Son of God’. Does that subtract from Him being God? "NO"

    The "head spinning" Triune Doctrine cannot be used to complicate the matter that JESUS IS GOD, because you just stated in your laughable quote above that Jesus as God is His own son as well!  ROFLOL!!!!  Stop it ProudToBeCatholic, let us catch our breath from laughing at what you are proposing, okay .... LOL!!!


    Does the following image give you a clearer picture of your ungodly and laughable EISIGENSIS position?
    https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEJ7SAI


    Here, let me help you AGAIN with this simple passage that shows Jesus as God, without the comical and self-defeating Trinity Doctrine, where you can thank me later:  “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.” (2 Peter 1:1)


    You and your primitive thinking Catholic faith should go on the road as a "Comedy Act" with your religious beliefs, doctrines, in how your church hierarchy is dressed like KKK Grand Dragons, and such, instead of them being in your churches!  You would have sell out crowds wherever you go, where you can take this money and use it to pay reparations to parents because of your Satanic PEDOPHILE priests buggering their little innocent children!  Its a WIN - WIN situation!

    .


    NomenclatureDr_BatmanVictor_van_HelsingProudToBeCatholic
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