It is only possible for white people to be racist, correct?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Only white people can be racist.

Only white people have white privilege and powerful institutions to back them up. It is impossible for Louis Farrakhan to be racist. The four Black people in the scenario should not be charged with a hate crime for being anti-white.

  

Dee

  In its most simplistic definition, racism is prejudice or discrimination directed at someone of a different race – based on the belief that your own race is superior.

People of any colour can be racist that is if  one accepts the definition of racism as given above.

Dee

@Dreamer


Argument Topic: Only white people can be racist.

Argument Topic: Dreamer cannot define the term " racist

Only white people have white privilege and powerful institutions to back them up.


Nonsense , your sentence should say ..Only certain white people have privelege and  powerful institutions to back them up.

Only certain  black peope have black  privilege and powerful institutions to back them up.


 It is impossible for Louis Farrakhan to be racist



Why is it " impossible"? He said white people hadn't evolved yet , bet you would burst out crying though If a white man said " blacks haven't evolved they're monkeys"

Farrakhan is a hate filled bigot just like you

. The four Black people in the scenario should not be charged with a hate crime for being anti-white.

Well then  four white   people in a similar scenario should not be charged with a hate crime for being anti-black

Stop promoting Diangelos book , you haven't even read it , she admits she's a racist you are also.

Diangelo has in the past had to apologise for treating blacks as infantile intellectually and nearly gave up her career for doing so yet she keeps doing it, so do you. So please stop being so patronising  ( that means talking down to people) in a pretence of being a " friend " to blacks.

It's beyond amusing that you come on here with you super sensitive emotional arguments accusing everyone of racism yet you spew the most vile anti white nonsense and actually suggest that 4 black men who beat the f-ck out of a white man merely for being white are not in fact racist proving what a hate filled bigot you truly are.

Individuals like you erect statues to black scum bags like George Floyd who was a violent carrer criminal and who actually held a pregnant women at knife point 
during a robbery , I guess you just hate whites and haters just have to hate.

Nomenclature

@Dreamer

It is impossible for Louis Farrakhan to be racist. The four Black people in the scenario should not be charged with a hate crime for being anti-white.

It is absurd statements like this which manufacture support for the ultra far right and their wingnut ideology. 

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Anyone of any race can be racist

The definition of racism that says "to be racist one must have power over another" is a made up definition without legal support, that is in conflict with the legal definition established by the equal rights bills of the 70s.  No where in the law does it have the exclusionary clause "only white people can be racist".  

Black's Law Dictionary defines racism:

A set of policies that is exhibited by a person or persons toward a group of people of a different race. Often antagonistic and confronting. The assumption of lower intelligence and importance given to a person because of their racial characteristics.

There are many obvious intellectual, as well as legal problems, with the notion that you can only be racist if you come from the majority group.  For example, if a Black manager fires a white employee because he is white, who has the "power" in that situation?  One might argue, but most people in society are white.  But in that situation, the white guy did not have the power and his employment was terminated due to the racism of the Black manager.  

To claim that Black supremacist Louis Farrakhan is not racist is absurd.  Here are some of his quotes:

"White people are potential humans - they haven't evolved yet."  2000

“the Satanic Jews…control everything and mostly everybody.”  2011

“I’m not an anti-Semite. I’m anti-Termite.” 

“The Jews have been so bad at politics they lost half their population in the Holocaust. They thought they could trust in Hitler, and they helped him get the Third Reich on the road,” 1998

“White people deserve to die, and they know, so they think it’s us coming to do it," 2015

“there were many Israelis and Zionist Jews in key roles in the 9/11 attacks...many Jews received a text message not to come to work on September 11" 2015

"Osama Bin Laden didn’t destroy the Twin Towers. That was a false-flag operation to take the world’s attention away from the great disunity in America after George W. Bush stole the election.” 2016

“Now God don’t want you intermarrying with [white women],...he fact is that God wanted us to be with ourselves, us with our women. He respected white people who wanted to keep their race white, because we sure want to keep ours from being any further mongrelized.” 2016

To suggest that because Black supremacist and anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan is Black therefore he can't be racist is intellectually dishonest and ignores his own malevolent words.

The idea that only White people can be racist is a racist belief itself. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: It is good to test your own hypothesis. I was deliberately making the best case against my beliefs to test them.

@Nomenclature

I didn't think anyone would actually post some of Louis Farrakhan's quotes. I'll give another example feminist say men to listen to women more. Some people say "okay I will listen to alt-right women."

Barnardot

@Dreamer I reckon that darkies can be real racist because where I work we use knifes all the time and the spicks always call me gringo all the time and you cant argue with them when they have a knife in their hand and then you get the blackies and they dont trust you because they think that all the whities are out to get them. Well they are right any way but thats beside the point that I am pointing out. And then you get the slopes and they get racist because they get real pent up because they cant see out of there eyes to well. I suppose when it comes to Jews they dont get racist because I suppose they dont get dark enough and any way there always to busy dealing with every one else being racist at them.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: There are many myths about George Floyd here is a snopes article to help clear them up.

Come on use a fact checker before posting lies that defame a person.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/

Dee

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: There are many myths about George Floyd here is a snopes article to help clear them up.

What " myths"? Your consistent lying when you're proven wrong yet again demonstrates just how delusional you are

Come on use a fact checker before posting lies that defame a person.

Snopes is a website run by a farmer and his wife who both admit the crimes of the scumbag, this proves yet again the only here is you and the farmer and his wife agree. Incidentally you being st-pid glorify scumbags once they're black as you claim blacks can do no wrong

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/

 Quote  Persuaded

Argument Topic: Dreamer yet again posts up a piece by the farmer andh his wife she never read...... which clearly states.............


The farmer and his wife who own Snopes stated........

The alleged crimes and time periods are mostly accurate, with the caveat that Floyd was convicted of theft in 1998,.........

You  being a li-r left this part out. You keep quoting and misrepresenting articles you don't fully understand and keep running when asked to defend your nonsensical  claims , still no answers to even one person regards the many  lies and claims you made yesterday? No surprise there really

just_sayin

Argument Topic: The law says anyone of any race can be racist

Though some have tried to redefine the term "racist" to say that racist actions done against someone of the majority race in a country can't be racist, the law does not share this fake definition.  The law does not exclude a person from committing a racist crime because of their race.  To say that only white people can be racist, is a racist claim in it's self.  

Sadly such racist notions that only white people can be racists are becoming more popular and associated with Woke ideology, which is packed full of other racist beliefs such as:

• That one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex;
• An individual, solely by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive;
• An individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex;
• A meritocracy is inherently racist or sexist;
• Particular character traits, values, moral or ethical codes, privileges, or beliefs should be ascribed to a race or sex, or to an individual because of the individual's race or sex

All of these racist beliefs should be called out as "racist" and condemned.

jack

Dreamer said:

Can BIPOC people be racist? Is it possible for Louis Farrakhan to be racist?

Hello Dreamer:

I think you're saying black people can BE racists in their hearts, but can't DO much about it..  White racists, on the other hand, can do PLENTY.

Or, you're not saying that..  I can't tell, exactly.

excon

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Yes, only white people have priviledge and power to back them up.

@jack

Hello Jack,

The power asymmetry of whites dominating powerful institutions including the media, religion, government, schools, prisons, and many more. The school to prison pipeline is just one example.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
First, racism is about behavior and attitudes towards a group of people because of their race, the power dynamic may be talked about in classrooms, but it is not part of the definition of racism.  It is an excuse to rationalize discriminatory behavior by some and it must be called out as the racism it is.

The idea of "power dynamics" is a flimsy argument anyway.  Just how much "power" must one have to discriminate?  Must they run the country as Obama did?  Or can it be much more limited?  If a Black man shoots an Asian man because he is Asian, he had sufficient power to obtain a gun, point it at the Asian man, and to make a conscience choice to kill that man.  He literally had the power of life and death of that man in his hands.  He had power and misused it to fulfill his racist desire.  

To suggest that a poor white man who lives in a broken down trailer on government assistance in Appalachia is the "oppressor" of a Black Harvard professor who has 3 homes, a 7 figure income, thousands of followers on social media is the height of stupidity.  To claim that a poor white kid in Appalachia who doesn't own a decent pair of shoes and whose mother is strung out on drugs has privilege while the Obama's kids do not have privilege is to ignore obvious facts.  

I am sure that there are those who will argue that it is OK to discriminate against an Asian student because they are Asian so that a Black kid can take their place.  They sincerely believe that their racism is good racism.  What they are unwilling to acknowledge though, is that it is still racism, and no racism is "good'.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
Discriminating against someone's race is by definition racism. This does not exclusively apply to white people...
To say it does... is racism. You are being racist.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Maybe we need a new word.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Might sound a little silly, but it is clear that the definition of racism doesn't capture the distinction between privileged and minoritized groups.

That on one hand we have people who say there is no racism, that we live in a post racist society, that's silly, white nationalist groups exist. Or shrug and say everyone is racist. There are white as well as Black nationalists groups. As well as Black people who are bias against Blacks, including themselves.

Yet, when a Black person has internalized anti-Black stereotypes this is not the same as a white person believing anti-Black stereotypes. See above video about internalized stereotypes. This is why some people say that white people are racist but BIPOC people have bias. That Black nationalism can have at least some justification as a defense against white supremacy. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan can be bias but not racist. 

Dee

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: Vile racist Dreamer believes a man who said "Hitler was a great man" is wothy of adulation

You're a vile cowardly racist who flees when challenged and have  no valid defence except ( as usual ) to copy  and paste the words of others.

You support  for the despicable Louis Farrakhan demonstrates how hypocrites like you operate as you accuse everyone of being racist and attempt to justify your vile racism by being racist.

Not alone is your hero a racist like you but he detests women having rights , your a very st-pid individual you so far claimed you detest racism unless blacks are doing it , you also detest the working classes and also support a bigot who doesn't think women should have rights......

Allegations of sexism

Farrakhan received sexual discrimination complaints filed with a New York state agency when he banned women from attending a speech he gave in a city-owned theater in 1993.[106] The next year he gave a speech only women could attend.[106] In his speech for women, as The New York Times reported,

Mr. Farrakhan urged the women to embrace his formula for a successful family. He encouraged them to put husbands and children ahead of their careers, shun tight, short skirts, stay off welfare and reject abortion. He also stressed the importance of cooking and cleaning and urged women not to abandon homemaking for careers. 'You're just not going to be happy unless there is happiness in the home,' Mr. Farrakhan said at the Mason Cathedral Church of God in Christ in the Dorchester section, not far from the Roxbury neighborhood where he was raised by a single mother. 'Your professional lives can't satisfy your soul like a good, loving man.'[106]

Both the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center classify Farrakhan as an antisemite. Farrakhan has accused Jews of controlling the media, government, and global economy, along with being behind the Atlantic slave trade, Jim Crow laws, and black oppression in general. He regularly calls Jews "Satanic" and has repeatedly praised Adolf Hitler as a “very great man.”[52][53][54]

The Simon Wiesenthal Center included some of Farrakhan's comments on its list of the Top 10 antisemitic slurs in 2012.[55]

"Gutter religion" remarks

In June 1984, after returning from a visit to Libya, Farrakhan delivered a sermon that was recorded by a Chicago Sun-Times reporter. A transcript from part of the sermon was published in The New York Times:

Toward the end of that portion of his speech that was recorded, Mr. Farrakhan said: "Now that nation called Israel never has had any peace in 40 years and she will never have any peace because there can be no peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under His holy and righteous name.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Appalachian kids wonder what happened to their white privilege delivery

@Dreamer
It is a racist idea to claim that you can assign particular character traits, values, moral or ethical codes, privileges, or beliefs to a race or sex, or to an individual because of the individual's race or sex.  The very notion of "white privilege" is a racist concept.  I know we all look alike, but the experience of individual white people is very different.  There is no "white" privilege shared by all white people.  If white privilege were real, then poor Appalachian children would ask Santa Claus to bring them some of that for Christmas, or else they would save up their pennies until they could go buy them some at the Piggly Wiggly or Walmart.  The Appalachian region is statistically the poorest area in the entire US and it is 98% white.  Surely, white privilege would have made them millionaires by now..  I guess the "white privilege" truck couldn't make it up the mountains and deliver this precious gift.

The reality is that what is falsely labelled "white privilege" are a bunch of other privileges that are not directly related to skin color - wealth privilege, education privilege, growing up in a 2 parent home privilege, etc.  This might surprise you, but many of the ancestors of those who grew up in Appalachia were indentured servants (but then again 1/3 to 1/2 of all white people who came to the US in the early years were indentured servants)..Again, white people look alike, but their experiences are very different.

jack

just_sayin said:

The very notion of "white privilege" is a racist concept.

Hello just:

When black teens get their drivers license, their parents have the "talk" with them.  The "talk" is about what to do when they're pulled over by the cops.   They're told to turn on the inside lights. They're told to keep their hands on the steering wheel.  They're told not to reach for anything.  They're told to be deferential.  They're told to keep their head down, and not look the cop in the eyes.

That white parents don't have that talk with their kids is a perfect example of "white privilege". 

excon

Nomenclature

@jack

When black teens get their drivers license, their parents have the "talk" with them.  The "talk" is about what to do when they're pulled over by the cops.  They're told to keep their hands on the steering wheel..  They're told not to reach for anything.  They're told to turn on the inside lights.   They're told to be deferential..  They're told to keep their head down, and not look the cop in the eyes.

Hello hater.

Oh wow. Your OBSESSION with me is really showing, isn't it?

jack

Nomenclature said:

@jack

Hello hater.

Oh wow. Your OBSESSION with me is really showing, isn't it?

Hello antisemite:

Huh?

excon

Nomenclature

@jack

Hi Jack. Are you still on parole for your lies? Just wondering who I should report your slander to.

MayCaesar

I do not see anywhere in the definition of racism reference to "having powerful institutions to back one up". Racism simply means the belief that people of certain races are intrinsically better than people of other races, and, as far as we know, the propensity to thinking this way is not in any way affected by one's race. As always, @Dreamer pulls an argument out of some nonsense ideology and does not stop to think for a moment if it makes any sense at all. DiAngelo or some other disgusting collectivist says something, and he swallows it without a second though.

And even if racism did mean "having powerful institutions to back one up", his conclusion would be wrong. In Japan the vast majority of people are Asian, so, according to the definition, only Asian people could be racist there. If I come there and start complaining about all the narrow-eyed people around me, I will not be saying racist things in Japan, I will just be countering the Asian privilege there.
Or, perhaps, the OP thinks that the evil white people somehow have subverted Japan and are running everything there from the shadows - but given the absence of any evidence indicating that, the argument falls flat on its face, since just as well I could come up with a conspiracy theory according to which a cabal of Black people are running everything in the world from the shadows, making only Black people into racists.

Using that grey matter in our bone box can be quite helpful. The OP, sadly, have not learned how to do that yet, lest the ridiculousness of his argument would become obvious to him within seconds. I call it the "modern scumbag's privilege", the ability of the most naive and thoughtless person to live a pretty good life in the modern world. 3,000 years ago people like him did not live for long. You know what her tribe would do to DiAngelo 5,000 years ago for saying the things she says? People back then actually had to care about the members of their tribes saying and doing logical things, as the price to pay for having illogical ideologies run rampant in their tribes was total self-annihilation.

just_sayin

@jack

When black teens get their drivers license, their parents have the "talk" with them.  The "talk" is about what to do when they're pulled over by the cops.   They're told to turn on the inside lights. They're told to keep their hands on the steering wheel.  They're told not to reach for anything.  They're told to be deferential.  They're told to keep their head down, and not look the cop in the eyes.
That white parents don't have that talk with their kids is a perfect example of "white privilege". 

Do you really believe that white people don't have that talk also?  Seriously??  Do you think that in Appalachia, a parent doesn't talk to their child about how to address the officer with "yes sir" or "no sir", to not make any sudden movements, to comply with all instructions?  Do you really think that?  Have you never seen a movie where a rural police officer was portrayed as being over reactive?  And if you answered "no" were you being honest?

When someone assumes that they know the privileges, experiences, attitudes, intentions, guilt, or fragility of someone just because they know that person's race, they have engaged in racial profiling.  The truth is that people are individuals.  Their experiences differ greatly..  

MayCaesar

jack said:

Hello just:

When black teens get their drivers license, their parents have the "talk" with them.  The "talk" is about what to do when they're pulled over by the cops.   They're told to turn on the inside lights. They're told to keep their hands on the steering wheel.  They're told not to reach for anything.  They're told to be deferential.  They're told to keep their head down, and not look the cop in the eyes.

That white parents don't have that talk with their kids is a perfect example of "white privilege". 

excon

"The poor kids are just as bright as the white kids", huh? Quite a generalization you make here. How to behave when pulled over by a police officer is one of the things I learned even before coming here to the US, knowing how sensitive the officers are here - does that make me black, or does that make me an odd white fellow who is somehow exempt from the "white privilege"? The only time I got pulled over, I followed all the instructions, kept my hands on the wheel, and asked the officer if I could retrieve my driver's license from my backpack on the back seat. The police officer himself was white and his backing officer was black - not that it matters in any way, but it might matter to you, considering what has been said so far.

Can I borrow some of that "white privilege" I apparently am owed?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Yet, when a Black person has internalized anti-Black stereotypes this is not the same as a white person believing anti-Black stereotypes. See the above video about internalized stereotypes. This is why some people say that white people are racist but BIPOC people have bias. That Black nationalism can have at least some justification as a defense against white supremacy. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan can be biased but not racist. 

What is meant by the internalization of anti-Black or anti-White stereotypes? If someone hates White people, he is racist against White people, if someone hates Black people, he is racist against Black people. It's that simple.
I don't think there can be any justification for black nationalism or Louis Farrakhan, especially with his blatantly racist beliefs:
It maintains that a scientist named Yakub then created the white race. The whites lacked inner divinity, and were intrinsically violent; they overthrew the Tribe of Shabazz and achieved global dominance. Setting itself against the white-dominated society of the United States, the NOI campaigns for the creation of an independent African American nation-state and calls for African-Americans to be economically self-sufficient and separatist. A millenarian tradition, maintains that Fard Muhammad will soon return aboard a spaceship, the "Mother Plane" or "Mother Ship," to wipe out the white race and establish a utopia. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam
Louis Farrakhan leads the Nation of Islam. You would be hard-pressed to argue that such beliefs are not racist.

Might sound a little silly, but it is clear that the definition of racism doesn't capture the distinction between privileged and minoritized groups.

Being racist against a group you arbitrarily deem to be more "privileged" does not make that racism any more justifiable. If someone from Sweden were to visit Nigeria, would it not be racist for them to call everyone there the N-word? After all... the number of black people far outnumbers the number of white people in Nigeria, and thus Swedes in Nigeria are a minority group that suffers from the privilege that native Nigerians have in their own country(that being a majority there with full legal rights, unlike the Swede who is a tourist).
Obviously, this is wrong, because racism extends to all people, regardless of what you believe is their privilege based purely on their race(which is racism BTW).

white nationalist groups exist. Or shrug and say everyone is racist. There are white as well as Black nationalists groups. As well as Black people who are bias against Blacks, including themselves.

And White and Black groups that discriminate against other racial groups, are still racist... I don't see your point...

Fact of the matter is anyone can be racist. And to say that only White people can be racist is in fact racist.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: White privilege goes far beyond wealth.

@just_sayin

Hi, Just_saying

First, a short rant about rich liberals. Some liberals doesn't seem to recognize there are poor white folks. Furthermore, they only hang out with other rich liberals, which ironically is anti-liberal in my opinion.

White people are over-represented in the top 1% and upper management.  Black people are dis-proportionally effected by poverty. Yet, even if the racial wealth gap was closed there would still be driving while Black and the historic trauma of Rosewood and Tulsa. This is why middle class and upper class racialized people are angry.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Black people are searched more yet less likely to have contrabands.

@MayCaesar

The racial stereotype of the Black criminal is deeply embedded within our culture.

John_C_87

@Dreamer

It is only possible for white people to be racist, correct?

The state of the union set by the word discrimination with both Constitutional principle and self-evident truth make this question more powerful, let me explain. Racist actions by people even when unintentional describe a level of justification set by law for racist treatment. Whereas a United State Constitutional Right held under more rigorous scrutiny of self-evident truth does not set justification for racist treatment. 

The overwhelming burden of a person of African descent in America possess a great Constitutional united state as a self-evident truth to all people of that race. Again, like women a choice was and must be made again in how the issues is to be addressed as a state of the union with American United States Constitutional Right. In being straight froward what we know as whole truth is the state of the union made by law, and law alone, it is the law that has failed the people as a united state while Constitutional Right had been ignored as the issues of grievance had not been represented in self-evident truth in Constitutional principle.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Wait, you think my defiintion of priviledge is arbituary?

@MineSubCraftStarved

"Being racist against a group you arbitrarily deem to be more "privileged" does not make that racism any more justifiable." MineSubCraftStarved

Wait, you think my definition of privilege is arbitrary? My definition of privilege

1. Is any unfair or unearned advantage provided by race.

2. Any unfair or unearned advantage provided by race, gender, able-bodied, intersectionality, etc. Basically, the default is a straight white male, cis-gender, Christian, able-bodied, middle to upper class, native-born, and they tend to get unearned advantages.

I am still in doubt in which is better. Robin DiAngelo makes the case that we should number 1 only so we can focus on race.

Here's a Forbes article, a conservative website on white privilege.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2022/08/16/dear-white-people-lets-clarify-white-privilege-once-and-for-all/?sh=10ed5eff56ea

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Oh? Might I suggest that it has something to do with the crime rate in that group being significantly higher than in the rest of the population? You always abort your consideration of these matters with citing some difference between races, yet never stop to think for a moment if that difference can be, at least, partially explained by differences in behaviors not derived from race (I am not, at least, aware of any data suggesting that biologically people of different races have different dispositions to committing crimes).

I am not an advocate (but you are) of treating individuals belonging to different superficially defined groups differently. One has to recognize, however, that different groups may have different trends. Russians have more propensity to deceiving their business partners than Americans; Chinese have higher work ethics than the Spanish; Japanese treat their seniors with more respect than the British. These difference do not apply to every pair of individuals, but you would be a fool to, say, movevfrom the US to Russia without considering this (essential) difference. Similarly, going to a heavily black neighborhood in Detroit, you would be a fool to ignore the statistics and walk around as carelessly as you would on Beverly Hills. And you know it well - and you do take these factors into account. It does not make you a racist, just a rational individual. What does make you a racist is your belief that the evil white people are responsible for this.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

1. Is any unfair or unearned advantage provided by race.

Unless you can show studies demonstrating how being white gives you an advantage and nothing else, your case is mute.
BTW, if you want to make the argument discrimination equates to causation, then why shouldn't we be racist towards Asians, Indians, and Jews? After all, such groups earn more income and thus have an unfair advantage over other groups.

Also, what makes "privilege" an excuse for racial discrimination?

just_sayin

@Dreamer
You may want to switch to the dictionary's definition of privilege:

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

Privilege is about advantages, they can be advantages shared by a group or an individual.  The very idea of white privilege is a racist notion.  To suggest that you can know someone's attitudes, character, beliefs, privileges, guilt or innocence, or fragility from just knowing their race is a racist and bigoted belief.  White privilege is just as racist a notion as saying all Black men eat watermelon after eating chicken after abandoning their children and leaving them to be raised by their baby mama .  it is a stereotype that selectively sees someone as someone other than as they are, an individual.  

To suggest that a poor white child whose mother is strung out on drugs and who lives in a broken down trailer has privilege but Barak Obama does not is silly and driven by an irrational racist mindset.

ZeusAres42

No. Next question?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: There are hate crimes targeting Asians.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Money is not everything.

"Advocates and activists say these are hate crimes, and often linked to rhetoric that blames Asian people for the spread of Covid-19."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684

Dreamer

Argument Topic: There are plenty of white people who struggle with hardships, unrelated to race.

@just_sayin

I'd prefer this dictionary definition.

"Dictionary.com: The unearned, mostly unacknowledged social advantage white people have over other racial groups simply because they are white."

A white person can lose fingers in a factory and struggle. Just as your example of poor whites living in a trailer. This is suffering unrelated to race.

"White privilege doesn’t mean that white people do not experience hardship. It does however mean that racism has not been one of those hardships." Forbes Dana Brownlee

Barrack and Michelle Obama did face racist opposition. Being compared to primates  Rich and famous Black people are still subjugated by micro-aggressions. The classic example is mistaking a rich Black man for a janitor. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Your argument is blaming the victim. Did you know Black people are more likely to be audited by the IRS?

@MayCaesar

I don't know the crime statistics on Detroit versus Beverly Hill. Yet, you appear to blaming the victim.

"He found that civilians were more likely to shoot unarmed Black men, relative to unarmed white men and even armed white men, which was attributed to the stereotypes associating Black people with danger." By Katy Milkman, Kassie Brabaw on July 8, 2020

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stereotypes-harm-black-lives-and-livelihoods-but-research-suggests-ways-to-improve-things/

My guess is that Detroit does have a higher crime rate. Yet, poverty is the mother of crime. If we compare homicide rates in China, a more homogeneous nation race wise, we see homicide rises as poverty does.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32422646/

If we compared a highly white rich area to white poor area most likely there would be higher crime in the low income area.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

I'd prefer this dictionary definition.

"Dictionary.com: The unearned, mostly unacknowledged social advantage white people have over other racial groups simply because they are white."

Nice, you scooped down to banal lying. Unlike you though, some people actually look at the sources cited. The relevant part of the definition on Dictionary.com differs from your quite a bit:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege

the unearned and mostly unacknowledged societal advantage that a restricted group of people has over another group

You know you have F'd up when you have to alter quotes to make your argument work. You havevthe privilege of living in a world where your tribe does not execute you for misleading people in such a nasty way.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: This thread is about race, white privilege is the focus.

@MayCaesar

https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/white-privilege/

The definition is correct.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

The comment you were responding to contained the definition of "privilege", not "white privilege". Note also that the website categorizes your definition as part of the "pop culture dictionary" which is not a part of the formal dictionary. That is, were you to write a serious text on topic, the use of term "white privilege" would be as frowned upon as the use of term "nofap" or "yolo".

See, doing a little bit of basic research goes a long way. Snipping the first link you come across that on the surface appears to support your argument is hazardous to its reception.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

White privilege doesn’t mean that white people do not experience hardship. It does however mean that racism has not been one of those hardships." Forbes Dana Brownlee

This is a blatant lie.  Discrimination against whites and Asians is literally codified in the law.  You don't get more systemic racism than that.  Affirmative Action laws and policies have been in place since the 70's.  That's 50 years of government racism against whites. and Asians. This is seen in college acceptance rates where whites and Asians are openly discriminated against in college admissions - there is even a Supreme Court case right now going on which may over turn this blatant racist practice.  Whites can be discriminated against in applying for federal jobs.  Its pretty blatant racism.  The government will not allow a white company owner to apply for some government contracts if he is white.  It doesn't matter if he is the best at what he does and has the best price.  Just because he is white, he can't even make a bid.  That is racism, whether you want to admit it or not.  Just because racism is the kind of racism you approve of, doesn't make it any less racism.

In employment opportunities and promotions, whites and Asians can be overlooked just because of their color for candidates of another race who may not be quite as qualified.  That's racism against whites and Asians.  

How can you ignore 50 years of codified racism and pretend it doesn't exist?  The pure arrogance at minimizing the racism that others experience by the left is just mind-boggling. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Always interesting talking to you.

@just_sayin

Hi, just_saying

In the most literal sense you are correct. That affirmation action takes race into account and discriminates according to race. True, but ultimately a red herring and cherry picking fallacy.

By ignoring select evidence and focusing on white and Asian people your argument ignores the discrimination Black people face as well as American Indians and Latinx. That college admission rates are highly bias against these groups. Often due to unconscious bias caused by stereotypes and the myths that Black people are lazy and or that Black woman are angry.

https://hbr.org/2022/01/the-angry-black-woman-stereotype-at-work

I saw you using Harvard Business review on another thread, so I thought you would accept this link. Thank you for continuing the conversation.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
Again, why does privilege justify racism?
Why is it alright for me to beat up a white homeless guy simply because other people with his skin tone are wealthy and less likely to be attacked based on their racial identity? Explain to me how this is at all justifiable.
Let me go to your house and shoot up your kids because I deem them to be more privileged based on their race, and let's see you agree that such an action is acceptable as it is discrimination based on "privilege."

What you are arguing is thoroughly disgusting. People like MLK would've spat on you for what you said here.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

True, but ultimately a red herring and cherry picking fallacy.

I am not following you.  How can something that has literally been codified in the law and in policies for about 50 years be a "red herring" and a "cherry picked fallacy".  If it is the law of the land (for now) then it is just the way things are.

your argument ignores the discrimination Black people face as well as American Indians and Latinx. 

I have no doubt that Blacks, American Indians and Latinx face discrimination.  That is the point I'm overall making, that no one is exempt from racism and that anyone of any race can be a racist.

That college admission rates are highly bias against these groups. Often due to unconscious bias caused by stereotypes and the myths that Black people are lazy and or that Black woman are angry.

How did you reach this conclusion?  For instance, at Princeton, half of all Asian students who are denied admission have higher SAT scores than the average SAT score of accepted Blacks.  That is not an "unconscious bias".  It seems impossible to have that same result year after year after year without a conscious bias against Asian students.  it is silly to think that colleges don't want more Black students.  In the examples of Harvard and Princeton, these schools will overlook more qualified Asian students to accept less qualified Black students.

Underlying your comments, I believe, is a common racist notion that has made its way into many social justice advocates - that a meritocracy is somehow racist.  It is not.  Showing favoritism to someone because of his race is what is actually racist.  Further, I want to challenge you to reevaluate why more Black students aren't at Harvard or in STEM programs.  Is it really because liberal universities do not want more Black students because they are prejudiced?  Or is it that many Black students are not academically ready for the rigors of those programs.  According to studies from Duke, Black students are twice as likely to drop out of STEM majors, and switch to lower paying majors than white students, even though a higher percentage of Black students than whites start off as STEM students.  According to the  U.S. Department of Education, 84 percent of Black highschool students lack proficiency in mathematics and 85 percent of Black students lack proficiency in reading skills.  You don't get a lot of Black STEM graduates with results like those.

That means the issues are with elementary, middle and high schools for Black students.  Well it must be racism then, right?  But how can that be, since most Black students come from urban environments where they have been run by predominately Democrat elected and appointed officials for 50 years or more?  It must be that these schools are underfunded right?  The left leaning Urban institute found that when all money sources are considered, poorer schools get 2.5 percent more money per student than do the wealthier school districts around them.  And guess what, that's been the case since the 70's.  In Illinois, for instance, low-poverty schools get roughly $19,000 per student, while low-poverty schools get $15,500 per student on average. And if you look at it by cities, some of the cities with the poorest students and high Black populations, get the most money in the US per student.  $26,700 in New York City per student, $23,000 per student in D.C.  Baltimore spends $21,606 per student.  And worse for Baltimore students, 23 schools have ZERO students who are proficient in math.  Baltimore is a majority Black city, with a Black mayor, Black city council, and a Black school board.  Do you really think that the reason these kids are failing is because of racism?  Be honest, is that what you really believe?

Could it be that Black inner city kids are failing at rates like white Appalachian kids for many of the same reasons these white kids are failing?  Now white Appalachian schools are not funded as well as the average urban school, but the kids share many of the same lack of privileges.  A majority come from single parent homes.  Did you know that statistically, the number one indicator that a child will succeed in school is that she comes from a two parent home?  As a Black minister once said "The greatest obstacle that a Black child has to overcome to have success today, is not the presence of the white man, but the absence of the Black father."  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Whoa whoa, violence like that is never justified.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Of course it is immoral to do what you said. The difference is it lacks the aggravating factor of a racial hate crime.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

The difference is it lacks the aggravating factor of a racial hate crime.

Why does it matter whether or not other people of your race are targeted more? Discrimination is discrimination, no matter which racial group is affected. That is not important as to whether or not you have the privilege of immunity from racism. Nobody has that immunity. White people are not the only people that can be racist. Anybody can be racist. And the notion that only people of a certain race can be racist, is fundamentally racist itself.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Hi, just_saying

In the most literal sense you are correct. That affirmation action takes race into account and discriminates according to race. True, but ultimately a red herring and cherry picking fallacy.

An explicit racist policy is a "red herring" and "cherry picking"? Interesting. I thought we were talking about whether only white people can be racist. Turns out anti-white racist policies are a red herring. I do not understand what this debate is about then. Do you?

It seems that you define racism as something white people do against non-white people. Under this definition, of course, only white people can be racist. Only it does not mean anything: it is just a tautology. And it is not how the term is defined in the English language. Not sure about the Newspeak.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: White priviledge reconginzes the historic and instiutional power differences between the two groups.

@MineSubCraftStarved

White privilege recognizes the historic and institutional power differences between the two groups. I'll use an analogy. Women have been repressed for a long time. Witch burning and hanging.

Female genital mutilation, foot-binding, forced to wear beekeeper suits in summer, and being barred from positions of power is just the tip of the iceberg. The evidence is undeniable.

That being said if a man targets woman with sexist jokes, this is misogyny and hate.  Yet, the reverse a woman targeting men with  jokes is somewhat excusable and more tolerable due to the repression women face. In comedy this is called punching up at the powers in charge, versus punching down on the minoritized demographics.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/entertainment/2022/08/01/dave-chappelle-ricky-gervais-importance-of-punching-up-in-comedy/7528931001/

"what's lost is a discussion of one of the great traditions of American comedy: punching up. 

"There's something inherently much more powerful about comedy and satire when you're using it to point out something about the people in power that needs to be pointed out," says comedian Sarah Cooper, who rose to fame in 2020 for social media videos parodying then-President Donald Trump. "If you're trying to point out something about people who don't actually have a lot of power, I don't find a lot of gratification in that."" Kelly Lawler

 That's why I think only men can be sexist. To equate the two as equally sexist ignores power structures.

I could keep going. Jokes targeting straights versus gays. Humor that is against Christians versus Muslims, etc. Do you understand?

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

That being said if a man targets woman with sexist jokes, this is misogyny and hate.  Yet, the reverse a woman targeting men with  jokes is somewhat excusable and more tolerable due to the repression women face. 

That is quite an extraordinary claim. Let us ignore all the nuances, the context, the individuals in question... All that matters is the shape of one's genitalia: it determines what is excusable and tolerable coming from that person and to what extent.

You might not be aware, but there are rich and powerful women out there that have the ability to exert more control over their peers than 99.9% of men. Angela Merkel had held one of the most influential positions in the world for a couple of decades and her words and actions shaped the lives of tens of millions of Germans, men and women alike. Yet she can say whatever she wants about any man without coming across as sexist, while a nobody like me is not allowed to reference her gender in a joke?

You truly are stuck in the 18th century, my friend. The time when superficial differences led to people treating each other as garbage. I like to think that, at least, in the developed world humanity is mostly beyond that. Not everyone though, apparently.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

That being said if a man targets woman with sexist jokes, this is misogyny and hate.  Yet, the reverse a woman targeting men with  jokes is somewhat excusable and more tolerable due to the repression women face. In comedy this is called punching up at the powers in charge, versus punching down on the minoritized demographics.

There seems to be a misogynistic and racist theme that keeps showing up in social justice warrior rationale, that is nothing more than rationalizing treating men and certain races in an unjust manner.  This dual justice mentality, where if the same action is committed by one race or one gender it is a crime and misogynistic / racist but if the race of the perpetrator changes then it isn't a crime or misogynistic / racist is an unjust and immoral construct that is in direct opposition to the actual law.  Can you tell me where in the law it says that what crime someone is charged with is dependent upon the sex or race of the one who commits it?

I am confident that social justice warriors mean well.  They have rationalized that the kind or racism and misogyny that they support is well intentioned and is therefore good and holy.  The problem with holy racism and misogyny is that it is still racism and misogyny.  Many SJWs practice the very evil they speak out against.  Its just they can't see it in themselves. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Sexism for example doesn't take into account the perptuator.

@just_sayin

If a female commits a misogynistic act against another female this is horizontal or internalized sexism, both are on equal footing. This is not the same as male a committing the same act. Same with race.