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Is Putin A War Pig?

Debate Information


Putin stands accused of a litany of crimes, including war crimes, crimes against humanity, and even genocide. Civilians, including children, continue to be targeted on a daily basis. 
Nomenclature



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    Arguments


  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold
    Putin stands accused of a litany of crimes, including war crimes

    Oh, he stands accused of a litany of war crimes? Who is accusing him? Oh, other war criminals? That's awesome. 

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 810 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Putin's Criminal Tactics

    According to Wayne Jordash, managing partner of the Global Rights Compliance international human rights law firm, the Kremlin’s modus operandi consists of three stages.

    First comes the targeting of all leaders, whether they be military commanders, politicians, journalists, or volunteers — the Russians murder anyone who is potentially considered to be able to resist or protect the civilian population. This is followed by a process of filtration, during which the population is isolated and constantly under surveillance, continually undergoing security checks to ensure there will be no resistance. Thirdly comes the removal of anything Ukrainian: the destruction of books, symbols, and cultural artifacts, the reeducation of children using the Russian curriculum, and much more.

    “You cannot achieve that without unlawful detention, torture, the killing of civilians, forcible displacement, abduction of children. But these are the means by which Russia will achieve its military objectives,” Jordash said. “You can’t have this design and scope of brutality against civilians without the aim of targeting Ukraine as a nation. And that’s what I find unusual for an armed conflict. The level of calculation is astonishing.” 

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  

    NEW DOCUMENTS: US PROMISED NOT TO EXPAND NATO EASTWARD

    U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.




    Dee
  • John_C_87John_C_87 Emerald Premium Member 864 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature

    You have a funny way of excusing a military invasion to occupy a foreign power and America is a Constitutional republic held as a united state we do not keep nations like Ukraine from being part of treaties. It is unconstitutinal. Even if we said we would not expand NATO the world has grown small and is to expand beyond the solar system in the future. It may be a little late but a bid to buy Ukraine might have worked for Russia instead you make it sound as though USSR never really changed in the past 106 years. After all it is how American had received many of its states like Florida and California, possibly even paying multiple owners for the same properties along the way?

      A nation that makes a choice while at liberty to choose freely a path with others is part of a united state. I think the misinformation set by congress in the past has confused your idea of facts regarding America as a held republic.


  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87
    You have a funny way of excusing a military invasion

    You have a funny way of excusing poking Russia with a stick for thirty years until it was finally forced to act. What do you suppose would have happened if Russia began installing military bases in Canada and Mexico? As an American, you've got some outrageous nerve to be criticising any other nation for starting a war.

    Dee
  • John_C_87John_C_87 Emerald Premium Member 864 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature

    You have a funny way of excusing poking Russia with a stick for thirty years until it was finally forced to act. Forced? Great let’s see if Russia stops all aggressions and leave the Ukraine tomorrow and makes a serious financial bid and not military bid to own Ukrain. Glad we could work this misunderstanding out I knew Putin was rich...What do you suppose would have happened if Russia began installing military bases in Canada and Mexico? The Russians Armed services would be fighting the Ukraine and the Drug Cartels, meanwhile Canada has gun laws so America's will be safe Exsecutive officer Biden and Congress told me so.

    As an American, you've got some outrageous nerve to be criticising any other nation for starting a war.

    Starting a War is not making the open claim to invade with a goal of occupation. Russia is acting like Iraq when it invaded Kuwait with the hopes the threat of Chemical Warfare is enough to tolerate the wrong cast on a group of people, no-one poked the Bear it ate sticks, berries, and rocks to hibernate in a world that doesn't exist anymore and woke up constipated.

  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @John_C_87
    Forced?

    You expected Russia to be enthusiastic about you surrounding it with enemy missiles and military personnel?

    What kind of drugs are you on, John? They seem like they are fairly strong.


    Dee
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 810 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Controversy

    The relationship between NATO and Russia has been a topic of controversy and tension for many years. While NATO denies that it is surrounding Russia with missiles, Russia has expressed concerns about NATO’s military presence in Eastern Europe, particularly since the 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia.

    NATO has stated that its missile defense system is intended to protect Europe from potential threats from outside the region, such as Iran. However, Russia has viewed this system as a threat to its own security, as it believes that the missile defense system could be used to undermine its nuclear deterrent capabilities.

  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @JulesKorngold

    The facts are fairly clear about this issue. NATO was the west's answer to the Warsaw Pact. It was a Cold War treaty and NATO should have been disbanded the moment the Cold War ended. However, not only did it fail to disband, but it grew significantly, threatening Russia's security on its western border. Russia had attempted to keep Ukraine as a final buffer between itself and NATO, but in 2014 the pro-Russian president was ousted in a US-backed coup and replaced by Zelenskyy, who most Russians see as little more than a US puppet. 

    On the one hand, invading foreign territory is rarely -- if ever -- justifiable, but on the other Russia was backed into a corner. 

    NATO itself has a particularly dark history which most in the west are completely unaware of. There's a great (but long) article about Operation Gladio and some of its other indiscretions here:-

    https://www.kennedysandking.com/articles/nato-s-secret-armies-operation-gladio-and-jfk
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    I find this argument kind of strange, given the "reasons" for invading Ukraine a second time. He said the main reason was to "demilitarize and denazify Ukraine", not because NATO expanded eastward (which would be strange in it of itself because NATO would never attack Russia in the first place). And, even if it wasn't "demilitarizing and denazifying" Ukraine, the true reason would never be known, since there are so many factors that could be true. There's irredentism, resources, Ukraine's strategic borders on the Black Sea and Europe in general, linking Russia's troops in Transnistria, etc.
    JulesKorngold
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -  
    On a side note, this exact situation happened twice. First in Georgia, and now in Ukraine.
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255
    I find this argument kind of strange, given the "reasons" for invading Ukraine a second time

    There wasn't really a first invasion Luigi. What happened is the US-backed coup in 2014 caused a civil war in the eastern parts of the country, and Russia intervened to assist the rebels. The media has entirely changed its tune since Russia invaded. This is what the media was writing back in 2014:-

    The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    That does not address my point in the slightest. And I wasn't talking about Donbas, I was talking about Crimea.
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Luigi7255
    That does not address my point in the slightest.

    You claimed you found the argument strange, which isn't really a point in the first place. I tried to clarify the situation for you.

    If you want me to address your "point" then OK.

    He said the main reason was to "demilitarize and denazify Ukraine", not because NATO expanded eastward

    This is a fallacy of misrepresentation. The first phrase is an objective/aim and the second phrase is a reason. Two different things.

    Putin has talked plenty about the eastward march of NATO:-

    Putin Argues U.S., Talk of NATO Expansion to Blame for Increased Tensions With Ukraine

    Russian President Vladimir Putin reiterated his push against a proposed NATO expansion amid a surge of NATO forces along the Russian-Ukrainian border.

    https://www.newsweek.com/putin-argues-us-talk-nato-expansion-blame-increased-tensions-ukraine-1661651

    Don't be one of these people who argues simply for the sake of arguing.
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature

    Reading the article you mentioned, it seems as if Putin just was groundless in his claims that NATO is a threat. He claimed that somewhere above 120 members of private U.S. personnel employed by Ukraine to train are a major threat.

    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu charged Tuesday that more than 120 staff of U.S. private military companies are currently operating in two villages in war-torn eastern Ukraine, training Ukrainian troops and setting up firing positions in residential buildings and different facilities.

    Putin said the U.S. "should understand we have nowhere to retreat.""What they are now trying to do and plan to do at Ukraine's territory, it's not thousands of kilometers away, it's happening right at the doorstep of our house," he said.
    And, that, despite assurances that NATO is not a threat, he continued to believe NATO was threatening Russia, saying that "words and promises" are not enough. I don't know about me, but M.A.D. doesn't seem advantageous to NATO, much less anyone else.

    Plus, Russia has threatened NATO countries as well, so it doesn't seem like he cares about defense either. Aleksey Zhuravlyov, who is the deputy chairman of the Russian Parliament's defense committee also said that, if Finland were to join NATO, Finland would cease to exist, as would the U.S. and the U.K.

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/russia-threatens-nukes-for-us-uk-finland-if-nato-expands/

    And Dmitry Medvedev, who is one of Putin's close allies also claimed that if Finland and/or Sweden joined NATO that he would put nuclear weapons on the Baltic as a "defensive measure" when there is no such threat.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-warns-baltic-nuclear-deployment-if-nato-admits-sweden-finland-2022-04-14/
    JulesKorngold
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255
    Reading the article you mentioned, it seems as if Putin just was groundless in his claims that NATO is a threat.

    It seems like you don't understand the history of either NATO or the United States. Did you maybe skip over the part where I explained they ousted the previous Ukrainian president because he was considered too pro-Russian?

    And, that, despite assurances that NATO is not a threat

    Is this supposed to be a joke? What do you supposed those "assurances" are worth? In fact, don't bother answering. Let me show you.

    NEW DOCUMENTS: US PROMISED NOT TO EXPAND NATO EASTWARD

    U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.

    https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-nato-eastward/

    You want the Russians to trust the "assurances" of a nation that has been breaking its assurances for the last 30 years? Why would they do that? 

    he continued to believe NATO was threatening Russia

    NATO was literally invented to threaten Russia. Do you perhaps not understand history? I explained this in my initial post.

    Predictably, it looks like you ignored my request not to argue for the sake of arguing.

  • @Nomenclature

    You expected Russia to be enthusiastic about "you" surrounding it with enemy missiles and military personnel? 

    Interesting personal underdstanding as to why a invasion is to be taking place in the Ukrain.


  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature

    1. The Revolution of Dignity, which is what ousted the pro-Russian president, was due to not signing an agreement to promote better trade relations with the West, but continuing to only focus on Russia. It was a civilian uprising and the U.S. supported it because of democracy and idiocy to insert itself into every international scene but did not intervene (for once).

    2. That agreement was with the Soviet Union, a country that no longer exists, to Mikhail Gorbachev a leader who is dead. I feel there is no obligation to uphold a "treaty" where the opposite side no longer exists.

    3. NATO is a defensive organization by its nature and its own rules. It's not intended to attack others without provocation. Keyword: *intended*. It can attack if a perceived threat arises, but it wouldn't end well for NATO in the eyes of the people, just as it's doing to Russia right now.

    4. I'm trying to actually debate, not to argue just to argue. I'm not some idiotic nobody just trying to get those "Agrees" and "Great Arguments", I'm trying to convince you that Russia, specifically Putin, had no logical reason to attack Ukraine, and if it was logical, it wouldn't be related with its supposed NATO recruitment. That is the purpose of debate, you know?
    John_C_87JulesKorngold
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Luigi7255
    It was a civilian uprising 

    Don't make me laugh buddy. Were you actually born yesterday? The CIA has been arranging "civilian uprisings" for the better part of the last eighty years. They have arranged them in Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Nicaragua, Haiti, Mexico and a smorgasbord of other places I can't even be bothered to list. Do you assume the following to be a mere concidence?

    The Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

    The problem buddy is that your mind is consumed by western propaganda which is giving you a highly redacted and self-interested version of the facts.

    NATO is a defensive organization by its nature

    Holy Christ. Why don't you take the time to learn a little bit of history? Clearly, you have never heard of Operation Gladio, have you?

    We can't debate until you educate yourself about the history of NATO. It is not a "defensive organization" and it never has been.

    https://www.kennedysandking.com/articles/nato-s-secret-armies-operation-gladio-and-jfk

    John_C_87Sargonski
  • NomenClature
    I already told you a "President of the United States of America" is a very limited state of the union and something Ukraine or other nations outside America cannot support for many reasons. Even though they magical believe they can, the reason behind the failures however is not because of Unconstitutional interactions but human error.

  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87
    Interesting personal underdstanding
    The word "you" doesn't have to be intended personally. It can equally refer to a party, group or nation of which you are a part. 
  • Have you ever heard the term impersonation is the highest form of flattery?

    How many Nations adopted a President?

    Not that if I knew I would openly talk about Central intelligence Agency objectives with you, it would be more likely to understand that uprisings occur by mismanaging minimal democracies rather the operations of intelligence gathering, but whatever sells a movie, stories, or bad political plan by media…


  • You expected Russia to be enthusiastic about being surrounded with enemy missiles and military personnel?

    @Nomenclature
    The word "you" doesn't have to be intended personally. It can equally refer to a party, group or nation of which you are a part. 

    I'm just trying to figure out how any nation on earth exists without being in the same position as a point of fact.


  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 695 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Claiming I'm absorbing propaganda and that I'm uneducated in trying to show that NATO would be hypocritical and a bad reason to invade Ukraine isn't a good way of debating. I refuse to debate someone with that kind of disrespect.
    JulesKorngold
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @Luigi7255
    Claiming I'm absorbing propaganda and that I'm uneducated 

    These aren't claims. These are facts, evidenced by your own statements. Ignoring the literature I posted doesn't help your case, either. 

    The article I posted shows how NATO, under the leadership of the American CIA, ordered, funded and supported terrorism and various bombings across mainland Europe against any individual or group viewed as left wing. They are a "defensive organization" like I am Father Christmas.

    In 1990, after Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti was forced to admit the reality of Gladio, parliamentarians launched an investigation. In 1995, they produced a 370-page report, which tepidly stated that the “CIA [had] enjoyed maximum discretion” in Italy during this period. Five years later, a second parliamentary investigation concluded that the U.S had supported the “strategy of tension” (i.e., terror) in order to “stop the PCI [Italian Communist Party] and to a certain degree also the PSI [Italian Socialist Party] from reaching executive power in the country.”

    According to Vinciguerra, all the bombings that followed the Peteano massacre stemmed from the same “single, organized matrix.”33 Most chilling of all, Vinciguerra fleshed out the strategy of tension in a manner that only a hardened killer could who had participated in its every step:

    "You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the State cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened."34

    https://www.kennedysandking.com/articles/nato-s-secret-armies-operation-gladio-and-jfk


  • nomenclature your link is supporting my argument about the understanding of what a President of the United States of America as a nation really is. Also, I am concerned as American Higher Educational institutions had been the leading training ground for many of the worlds foreign nationalist ranking think tank employees and intelligence communities. A larger question is the Kennedy family in general at this time in America’s history and the political career of John F. Kennedy as Executive officer had been set and  built around the building and exploitation of an economic principle that politics is the legal money machine to be operated by educated legal professionals on all sides to ensure high paying lucrative jobs all around as the ending of alcohol prohibition left a vacuum in the legal industry for such high paying jobs.

    Thank you for the link, o which by the way I found it interesting... at least, but somewhat ignorant, the War the Kennedy brothers had been cast into by their families own past and its connections to Italy and the Nations long history of a rather unique connection to Constitutional liberty is convenient. You are taking a lot of time not to say Putin is only planning to leave the Ukraine after the invasion is over and the goal was only to make a better connection to established justice in Europe.


  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 810 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Krushchev's Threat

    Nikita Khrushchev was a Soviet politician who served as the First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964.   In 1956 during a meeting with Western ambassadors in Moscow, Krushchev declared “We will bury you!” while banging his shoe on the table. 

    Was this a "defensive" statement?!
  • @JulesKorngold

    Isn't the big risk here is it Putin who causes a reactor meltdown or is it Russia that causes it's second massive nuclear reactor meltdown in the Ukraine?


  • KekeeKekee 23 Pts   -  
    Not more than Obama was a war monger
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