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What are Tips for?

Debate Information

Hear me out, I know this is semi-controversial.  What are tips for exactly? 

What we can agree on:

  1. Tips are common in multiple industries
  2. Tips are income, taxable under FICA and Social Security Tax
  3. Tips are for the person directly assisting you
  4. Not tipping is considered bad form or rude
That being said, from a business standpoint...what line item is being covered by the Tip?  What exactly and specifically is being transacted by the tip?

  • Is it customer service with a good attitude? (Manners, politeness)
If so, is it reasonable to give poor customer service (To be rude or impolite) when you work in an industry that doesn't regularly use a tipping system?

  • Is it expedient and effective service?
If so, is it reasonable to make customers wait lengthy periods of time for service when you work in an industry that doesn't regularly use a tipping system?

What exactly are you paying for in the transaction?

Let's use more clarity.  What tips are not:

  1. Tips are NOT a gift.  If they were then the tip would NOT be based on performance.
  2. Tips are NOT a donation.  The tip must legally be reported as income and both customer and employee enter into this agreement upon the exchange under the law.
So what are they? 

There's no business out there that will tell you that you'll receive poor customer service from their business if you don't tip as a customer. 
So it can't be payment for good service, good service is already pledged by the business BEFORE you arrive as a customer. 

It can't be a gift because gifts are given without payment, a present.  Handing someone Money for services rendered is NOT a gift.

It can't be a donation, if you received something in return for your donation then it's payment...not a donation.  

So what is it? The entire premise of tipping does not pass the common sense test anymore today than it did when it was first put into place in the 1850s.  

My take: Tipping is willful participation in business that treats employees as "Less than valuable" by using loopholes to pay them below legal minimum wage.  Tipping is support for shady and scummy business practice.

OakTownA
"If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


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  • jackjack 447 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    Vaulk said:

    What are tips exactly?
    Hello V:

    They're income that make up for the shortfall in a persons wages..

    What people do with 'em or why they deserve 'em can be answered this way: What do YOU do with your wages and WHY do you deserve them?

    excon
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Vaulk
    It seems like your real issue is with a minimum wage that you consider too low.  It is my belief that people who want $15 an hour minimum wages hate the poor or haven't really considered what happens after a minimum wage hike. Let me explain it to you.  How in the world can raising the minimum wage hurt low skilled workers?  Here's how: when you raise the cost of labor without reducing other expenses, it reduces the profits.  It may surprise some that restaurants work on very small profit margins, as do other businesses.  So what typically happens is that businesses will offset the wage increase by reducing hours, reducing benefits, or cutting staff positions altogether.

    So are there any studies that show that raising the minimum wage hurts low skilled workers.  Yes.  There is a lot of evidence:

    "However, our data suggests that the way in which those hours were allocated among workers did change. For every $1 increase in the minimum wage, we found that the total number of workers scheduled to work each week increased by 27.7%, while the average number of hours each worker worked per week decrease by 20.8%. For an average store in California, these changes translated into four extra workers per week and five fewer hours per worker per week — which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%. -  Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation, Harvard Business Journal 

    DC's wage hike cost 700 jobs in less than 3 months:

    The strongest evidence comes from the nation’s capital, where leisure and hospitality employment, which rose at least 3% annually over the prior four years, fell an average of 1% from a year ago in the three months through November. So instead of adding 2,000 or more jobs per year, restaurants, hotels and the rest of the leisure and hospitality sector have lost about 700 jobs.
    The timing coincides with the $1 minimum-wage hike to $10.50 an hour last July. That jump followed a boost from $8.25 to $9.50 an hour that took effect in mid-2014. Another jump to $11.50 is set for this July.
    The D.C. data are key because they reveal outright job losses confined to the city limits. Researchers studying the latest round of citywide minimum-wage hikes generally have had to rely on data for a big chunk of the broader metropolitan area, making the analysis more speculative. - 6 Big Cities See Hiring Fade After Minimum Wage Hikes,

    When Seattle increased its wages a few years back it hired a company to share how great its minimum wage hike had been to those making minimum wage.  The study found:

    The team concluded that the second jump had a far greater impact, boosting pay in low-wage jobs by about 3 percent since 2014 but also resulting in a 9 percent reduction in hours worked in such jobs. That resulted in a 6 percent drop in what employers collectively pay — and what workers earn — for those low-wage jobs.
    For an average low-wage worker in Seattle, that translates into a loss of about $125 per month per job. Seattle Times, UW  study finds Seattle's minimum wage is costing jobs 
    The evidence was hard as the study literally tracked every participant before the increase and then after.  Rather than change its policies, Seattle paid to have another report done that would say its minimum wage hike had been beneficial.  Typical left-wing sop.

    80% of all minimum wage studies show it has negative effects on the people it most touted as helping - costing jobs, work hours, and benefits. In a summary of minimum wage studies:

    Summarizing the research literature this way, our key conclusions are as follows: • There is a clear preponderance of negative estimates in the literature. In our data, 79.2% of the estimated employment elasticities are negative, 53.8% are negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and 46.2% are negative and significant at the 5% level or better. • This evidence of negative employment effects is stronger for teens and young adults, and more so for the less-educated. • The evidence from studies of directly-affected workers points even more strongly to negative employment effects. • The evidence from studies of low-wage industries is less one-sided, with 64.5% of the estimated employment elasticities negative, but only 32.3% negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and the same percent negative and significant at the 5% level or better. 4 We suggest, however, that the evidence from low-wage industries is less informative about the effects of minimum wages on the employment of low-skill, low-wage workers. Overall, we conclude that the preferred estimates of authors of studies evaluating the employment effects of minimum wages in the United States, since the advent of the New Minimum Wage Research in 1992, paint a clear picture that is at odds with how this research is often summarized. In its totality, this body of evidence and its conclusions point strongly toward negative effects of minimum wages on employment of less-skilled workers, especially for the types of studies that would be expected to reveal these negative employment effects most clearly. One might argue about the validity of individual studies – a question we do not address in this paper. But our findings indicate that concluding that the body of research evidence fails to find disemployment effects of minimum wages requires discarding or ignoring most of the evidence.  https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28388/w28388.pdf

    Minimum wage increases can be a huge benefit if you have a lot of skills, however for those with a prison record, disabilities, and low skills, it makes it much more unlikely that an employer will hire them to start with, and much, much more likely that they will see their benefits, hours, or even jobs reduced or eliminated.  Why would an employer take a risk and hire someone with a prison record when there are others who would work for $15 or $17 an hour?  The Seattle study said that for the lowest skill workers the minimum wage increase had made them unemployable in the new market reality.

    Companies like Walmart and Target boasted when they raised their minimum wages.  Then promptly cut workers hours (see Forbes).  

    Cutting out rungs to the ladder of success means that the poorest, those with records, and the least skilled will just have a harder time finding work and getting ahead.


    NomenclatureOakTownA
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    It is my belief that people who want $15 an hour minimum wages hate the poor

    Absolutely. The only reason anybody would want to raise wages for the poor is if they hate the poor. It's a very logical belief.

    or haven't really considered what happens after a minimum wage hike. Let me explain it to you.  How in the world can raising the minimum wage hurt low skilled workers?  Here's how: when you raise the cost of labor without reducing other expenses, it reduces the profits. 

    WHAT??? Omfg. Thanks for letting me know!! There's absolutely NO WAY we should lower the profits of faceless multi-billion dollar corporations. I almost fell for that!! How fortunate that you tipped me off, otherwise McDonalds share prices might have dropped!!! What a lucky escape. Everybody take a big sigh of relief because the crisis has been averted!!!

    So are there any studies that show that raising the minimum wage hurts low skilled workers.

    Have you looked at who might be funding these "studies"?

     Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation, Harvard Business Journal 

    Interesting. A legitimate source. Oh, wait a minute:-

    A recent study found that one retailer slashed hours, scrambled schedules, and cut benefits after a minimum wage hike.

    Right, so what this article is saying is that a multi-billion dollar business took punitive action against its workers after the government raised the minimum wage. So, the workers should forget the carrot and take the stick to avoid the... er, stick. Fine logic there, Sherlock.

    In fact, I looked at a couple more of your links , and they all follow the exact same trend. It appears as though your belief is that we should permit multi-billion dollar corporations to blackmail the economy in order to avoid paying their workers a fair living wage, and there's really only one way to describe that belief.


    just_sayinDreamerOakTownA
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
      


    I agree,   tips used as part of salary is an abuse   and used as an    excuse by  scum bag employer's  for dreadful business  practices ,  instead of paying staff a decent wage they let the paying customer pay a portion of the wage they should be paying 

    If a business owner cannot pay a wage that covers the basic necessities of life he / she is exploiting  their workers   
    just_sayinNomenclatureDreamerOakTownA
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature
    I'm sorry, did you just try claiming that the Harvard Business Journal isn't a credible source????????? Are you OK?  Seriously.  Are you doing OK?  

    The UW study that Seattle funded was a good study.  It was the left-wing Seattle City Council that bought and paid for a study to say what they wanted after they got results they didn't like, not the other way around.  

    Most restaurants are mom and pop ones.  When NYC raised their minimum wage in 2019 it had a devastating effect on restaurant jobs:

    Roughly 77 percent of NYC restaurants have slashed employee hours. Thirty-six percent said they had to layoff employees and 90 percent had to increase prices following the minimum wage hike, according to a NYC Hospitality Alliance survey taken just one month after the bill took effect. - 
    NYC Has Lost 4,000 Jobs in the Restaurant Sector Alone in the Last Year

    Again, 80 percent of ALL minimum wage studies, even the radical wacko left-wingnut job ones, have found that minimum wage hikes reduce jobs, workers hours, and workers benefits.  The Seattle study found that after the minimum wage hike that minimum wage workers were making an average of $125 less a month than before the wage hike.  

  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    If a business owner cannot pay a wage that covers the basic necessities of life he / she is exploiting  their workers  
    You obviously have never run a business before.  Employers pay what the market will yield.  And for the record most businesses fail.  That means they run out of money.  

    Data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years. Only 25% of new businesses make it to 15 years or more. - Investopedia

    Not every job is a good paying job, nor can it be.  The reason McDonald's workforce is now half of what it was 10 years ago is because its cheaper to automate.  You can't pay people more than you are making off of their labor.  If you can do that, then please explain to me why people in Communist countries make so little. 

    Nomenclature
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    You obviously have never run a business before.

    I previously had two pretty successfu,l   Now I'm self employed , so stop making  assertions  you have zero proof  for.


      Employers pay what the market will yield.  And for the record most businesses fail.  That means they run out of money.  


    The reason a business fails is because the owner/ owners relied on a poorly reasoned business plan

    Data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years. Only 25% of new businesses make it to 15 years or more. - Investopedia

    Not every job is a good paying job, nor can it be

    Wait a business opens to make a profit right , do you think exploiting your work force is an agreeable way to make a profit ?



    .  The reason McDonald's workforce is now half of what it was 10 years ago is because its cheaper to automate.  You can't pay people more than you are making off of their labor.

    How much profit does Mc Donalds make yearly.?



    If you can do that, then please explain to me why people in Communist countries make so little


    I know nothing about business models in communist countries but you no doubt being a white AMerican Christian are an " expert" on  such.


    It's absolutely astonishing to me that American Christians who hilariously claim to love the teachings of  Jesus are fully behind the brutal exploitation of the lowest paid in society.  

    Nomenclaturejust_sayinOakTownA
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    I'm sorry, did you just try claiming that the Harvard Business Journal isn't a credible source?

    Do you literally not understand plain English? The source is fine. It simply offers no support for your bizarre and repugnant belief that we should be looking after the interests of corporations above those of people.

    The UW study that Seattle funded was a good study.  It was the left-wing Seattle City Council that bought and paid for a study

    If you're not going to respond to my actual arguments then don't bother replying at all, you absolute wack job. Firstly, all your studies show is that corporations are blackmailing the economy to keep wages down. Secondly, stop calling everything which isn't ultra far right, "left-wing". Liberal capitalism is not "left-wing".

    Deejust_sayinOakTownA
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    Things do not work this way, Vaulk. A business cannot magically save money by outsourcing part of the waiters' salary to the customers: the customers take the effective increase in restaurant prices into account and the restaurant loses some of them. There are no tricks allowing employers to pay for everything at below the market value without incurring losses.

    Rather, it seems, this is a culture that has been developed in certain countries. The expectation is that the customers will largely tip the workers, and the expected tip amounts are factored in when employment negotiations take place. What exactly the tip represents is not very important. What does "Hey, how are you?" represent and how is it different from "Hello there"? These are just cultural conventions used in social transactions.

    I do find it a bit annoying that you have to interact with waiters so much, as opposed to using a kiosk and clicking on stuff you want to order. This appears to be an example of a stagnant industry where, for various reasons, the incentive to upgrade and innovate is small. The customers expect the service to be what it is because they have never seen an alternative, and the business owners see the lack of complaints as a sign of approval of things staying as they are.
    MineSubCraftStarved
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    My Christian love led me to run a transitional housing for women coming out of prison in a metropolitan area for a few years.  My views on the minimum wage are very much influenced by the struggle I saw as these ladies set out to find work.  When government artificially raises wages, what happens is that those who have prison records and those with low skills get priced out of the job market.  Tell me why should an employer give someone who is just out of prison a $15 or $17 an hour job, when they can hire someone who doesn't have a prison record instead.  That lower starting wage which you despise so much, allows people with a bad work history, or a prison record, or low skills the opportunity to get a job and show they can learn and be good workers.  

    As 80 percent of all minimum wage studies have shown, when you raise the minimum wage, those who make it suffer with a percentage losing their jobs, and some have their hours and benefits cut.  The money fairy doesn't come and make up the difference.  Instead, workers pay the price for those mandated higher wages.  It doesn't help someone to get a raise, but then to have their hours and benefits cut back so they are now making less - that's exactly what happened in Seattle, San Francisco, DC, and New York City.  


  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    My Christian love led me to run a transitional housing for women coming out of prison in a metropolitan area for a few years.  My views on the minimum wage are very much influenced by the struggle I saw as these ladies set out to find work.  When government artificially raises wages, what happens is that those who have prison records and those with low skills get priced out of the job market.  Tell me why should an employer give someone who is just out of prison a $15 or $17 an hour job, when they can hire someone who doesn't have a prison record instead. 

    Will you please stop writing absolute stark raving nonsense? Whether employers want to hire ex-prisoners or not has nothing to do with the minimum wage. The minimum wage remains exactly the same for ex-prisoners as for non ex-prisoners, so whether it's $10 an hour or $50 an hour, if an employer doesn't want to hire ex-prisoners then that isn't going to change just because the minimum wage is different.

    just_sayinOakTownA
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature had no facts, lots of opinions and antidotes, and just made more personal attacks

    I'll instead respond with study findings:

    According to a new study out of Clemson University, minimum wage is directly related to criminal recidivism. This is further support of the fact that without the ability for those who have served their time to move on, obtain employment, and earn a decent wage they are more likely to end up back in prison.
    The research conducted by Clemson University Economics Professors Michael Makowsky and Amanda Agan specifically found that a higher minimum wage and earned income tax credits (EITC) make the difference between recently-released prisoners returning to prison or being able to make a living outside of crime. In fact, there was a direct ratio between every dollar increase in minimum wage and the percentage point regarding the numbers of those who returned to prison. This was reportedly even more significant for women, in particular in states where earned income tax credit wage subsidies were available.- NEW STUDY DRAWS DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN MINIMUM WAGE AND CRIMINAL RECIDIVISM
    More than half of unemployed men in their 30s have criminal records — a dynamic with implications for hiring practices and ongoing challenges finding workers during the pandemic-era labor crunch, according to research published by economists at RAND Corp.
    About 6% of men at age 35 are unemployed, according to the study. By that age, 64% of those jobless males had been arrested as adults. Forty-six percent had been convicted of a crime, and 27% had been incarcerated.
    The study is the first to estimate the prevalence of a criminal record among the unemployed population, according to RAND.- 64% of unemployed men in their 30s have criminal records, a barrier to landing a job

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    @Nomenclature had no facts

    @Nomenclature doesn't need "facts" to point out your egregious use of logical fallacies. The question you asked (i.e. why would an employer hire an ex-prisoner for $17 an hour when he could hire a non ex-prisoner) is equally applicable whatever the minimum wage happens to be. If the minimum wage is $5 an hour then why would an employer hire an ex-prisoner instead of a non ex-prisoner? You're inventing a false cause-effect relationship which makes literally no logical sense.

    According to a new study out of Clemson University, minimum wage is directly related to criminal recidivism. 

    Recidivism means reoffending you weirdo. You're predictably misrepresenting your own link, which quickly becomes clear after the following sentence:-

    This is further support of the fact that without the ability for those who have served their time to move on, obtain employment, and earn a decent wage they are more likely to end up back in prison.

    So your own link is agreeing that if the minimum wage is too low, prisoners are more likely to reoffend. It literally debunks your own argument you absolute dolt.

    Christ you're so dumb.

    just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Another misreading by @Nomenclature

    As the article clearly states:

    However, research suggests a criminal record reduces access to job opportunities.
    Applicants without criminal records were 60% more likely to get a job callback from employers, even though the records of other applicants were minor (a single low-level, nonviolent felony approximately two years earlier), according to a 2017 University of Michigan study.

    If an employer could negotiate with someone with a police record at a rate below the $15 minimum wage, it may be of interest to the employer to take the risk, that he otherwise would not take.  Tell me, why do you think so many will hire unlawful entrants for employment?  Think about it for a moment.  I'm hoping it dawns on you why, they are more willing to hire an unlawful entrant, even if they have a criminal record, than to hire a legal resident with a criminal record.

  • BarnardotBarnardot 519 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk I think that a lot of people abuse the system because I go to the tip a lot and some people go there just to get things like hifi geer that people throw out. I can under stand that in India the curry muncher kids do it but there looking for food just to stay alive so they have a good reason so in the end we all know what tips a for but people use then in different ways.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    Another misreading by @Nomenclature

    No, not "another misreading by @Nomenclature". You cited an article which claims prisoners need to earn a decent minimum wage in order to reduce their chances of reoffending, as ostensible support for your idea that the minimum wage is too high. Your article literally debunks your own position, you brazen wack job.

    it may be of interest to the employer to take the risk, that he otherwise would not take.

    Stop trying to brute force the fallacy. If an employer doesn't need to take the risk by hiring an ex-offender, then it doesn't matter what the minimum wage is. They don't suddenly need to take the risk of hiring an ex-offender if the minimum wage is lower. That's dumb.

    Deejust_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    An employer would be more likely to hire an ex-con at a lower rate than $15 an hour.  That's why they would give them the chance.  Many people would balk at a lower salary, so the ex-con would have more of a chance.  Surely, you aren't as dumb as you come across in your posts.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    An employer would be more likely to hire an ex-con at a lower rate than $15 an hour. 

    An employer would be more likely to hire anybody at lower rates. The ex-cons still need to compete with the non ex-cons, regardless of what the minimum wage is. I don't see what you're finding difficult to understand about that.

    Deejust_sayin
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin


    My Christian love led me to run a transitional housing for women coming out of prison in a metropolitan area for a few years.  My views on the minimum wage are very much influenced by the struggle I saw as these ladies set out to find work.  When government artificially raises wages, what happens is that those who have prison records and those with low skills get priced out of the job market.  Tell me why should an employer give someone who is just out of prison a $15 or $17 an hour job, when they can hire someone who doesn't have a prison record instead

    You see that's what happens when you live in a  country of mostly so called " christians " , these same "christian" business owners attempt to justify the exploitation of workers by attempting to justify the system that does it.


    .  That lower starting wage which you despise so much, allows people with a bad work history, or a prison record, or low skills the opportunity to get a job and show they can learn and be good workers.  


    Of course I despise it even Jesus spoke out against the exploitation you approve of , would you like some bible verses that verify what I say, you know like the verses " christians" ignore?

    We have minimun wage laws in most civilised countries , tell me how can someone live on the wages you support?

    As 80 percent of all minimum wage studies have shown, when you raise the minimum wage, those who make it suffer with a percentage losing their jobs, and some have their hours and benefits cut. 

    Utter nonsense,  incidentally the corupt model that you approve of is typically American , why do people like you assume what goes on in the US applies worldwide?


    The money fairy doesn't come and make up the difference.  Instead, workers pay the price for those mandated higher wages.  It doesn't help someone to get a raise, but then to have their hours and benefits cut back so they are now making less - that's exactly what happened in Seattle, San Francisco, DC, and New York City.  

    Read above , I don't live in  your country thankfully where kids cannot be educated safely without  armed guards in the school and where exploitation of the weakest in society  is openly encouraged 
    Nomenclaturejust_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Dee:
     these same "christian" business owners attempt to justify the exploitation of workers by attempting to justify the system that does it.

    You are the one who supports an exploitative system.  In the system I support the employee and employer enter into a mutually agreed on and beneficial to both agreement that they both negotiate.  In your immoral view, the government dictates the agreement, and as a result the worker's job opportunities, wages, and benefits are reduced.  And let's not forget that since everything costs more, inflation increases, making the workers wages worth even less.  Now that's an evil system.

    The Bible doesn't say anything about a government mandated minimum wage.  Instead it describes a situation where wages are negotiated by the employer and employee.  Jesus said that we would always have the poor with us.  So apparently he wasn't aware of the false promise of the left that poverty would end if the minimum wage was raised.  By the way, how's that working out for you?  Since, minimum wage laws have reduced overall wages and benefits and reduced the number of full-time minimum wage jobs?  Seems, like the Devil may be in the plans you support.

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    You are the one who supports an exploitative system.  In the system I support the employee and employer enter into a mutually agreed on and beneficial to both agreement that they both negotiate.
    Are you literally high on crack? What employee in their right mind wants a lower wage? I'm afraid religion appears to have entirely torpedoed your ability to reason, because you're confusing exploitation with agreement. People need jobs so they can put food on the table, whereas corporations can pick and choose who they hire. That gives corporations all the power during the hiring process and the potential employees no ability to negotiate. You can't negotiate when one side holds all the cards. 
    In your immoral view, the government dictates the agreement, and as a result the worker's job opportunities, wages, and benefits are reduced. 
    Oh holy mother of God you're so dumb. 


    Deejust_sayin
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    Argument Topic: Just saying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the low  wages you support?

    You are the one who supports an exploitative system.

    Of course my supporting treating workers with respect and dignity is me favouring exploitation


    n the system I support the employee and employer enter into a mutually agreed on and beneficial to both agreement that they both negotiate.  

    Got ya , a worker demands the lowest wage ppossible are you insane?

    In your immoral view, the government dictates the agreement, and as a result the worker's job opportunities, wages, and benefits are reduced.  And let's not forget that since everything costs more, inflation increases, making the workers wages worth even less.  Now that's an evil system.


    Utter gibberish , again you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law

    The Bible doesn't say anything about a government mandated minimum wage.  Instead it describes a situation where wages are negotiated by the employer and employee. 

    Utter nonsense yet again do you really need me to tell you what Jesus said about treating others?


     Jesus said that we would always have the poor with us.

    Ah right now you have Jesus supporting exploiting workers thats what you're saying right?


      So apparently he wasn't aware of the false promise of the left that poverty would end if the minimum wage was raised. 


    what are you even ranting about?


     By the way, how's that working out for you?


    Well low paid here haven't taken to the street demanding lower wages like it seems you're saying is the case in the US


      Since, minimum wage laws have reduced overall wages and benefits and reduced the number of full-time minimum wage jobs? 


    I don't live in your sh- those of a country


    Seems, like the Devil may be in the plans you support.


    Seems your imbecilty is something you take pride in


    just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    Argument Topic: What the CBO said about a national minimum wage increase

    @Dee
    Since, minimum wage laws have reduced overall wages and benefits and reduced the number of full-time minimum wage jobs? 
    I don't live in your sh- those of a country

    You will be happy to learn that math works in your country also.  isn't that awesome!

    Let's take a look at what the CBO said about raising the federal minimum wage in the US:


    While noting there is “considerable uncertainty” about the effects of the minimum wage, a 2019 study by the Congressional Budget Office found that increasing the minimum wage by 65%, or from $7.25 per hour to $12, “would boost wages, but it would also increase joblessness, reduce business income, raise prices, and lower total output in the economy.”[544] With regard to families at different income levels, the study estimated that such a law would:
    raise the average annual reported cash income of families below the poverty line by about 1.6% or $229.[545]
    • give 74% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line.
    • give 37% of the salary increases to families earning three or more times the poverty line.[546]
    * The same 2019 Congressional Budget Office study estimated that increasing the minimum wage by more than 100%, or from $7.25 per hour to $15 would:
    • raise the annual average reported cash income of families below the poverty line by about 5.2% or $589.[547]
    • give 81% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line.
    • give 36% of the salary increases to families earning three or more times the poverty line.[548]
    * A 5.2% increase in reported cash income (or $589) would raise the average total income of families below the poverty line by about 1%. This is because reported cash income accounts for about 19% of their total income, while the other 81% is comprised of unreported cash and non-cash government benefits like Food Stamps, Medicaid, housing, and a wide array of other programs

    Wonder why the CBO's report didn't get a lot of attention from the left-leaning media?  I guess reporting that a minimum wage increase would increase joblessness by a million plus workers, and REDUCE THE TOTAL OUTPUT OF THE ECONOMY wasn't an important detail to share.


  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    You will be happy to learn that math works in your country also.  isn't that awesome!

    Buddy, you're literally arguing that workers would be better off earning less money. How could you possibly believe math is your friend here?

     a 2019 study by the Congressional Budget Office found that increasing the minimum wage by 65%, or from $7.25 per hour to $12, “would boost wages, but it would also increase joblessness, reduce business income, raise prices, and lower total output in the economy.

    That would be indicative of a major problem with the system. If paying workers a fair living wage has negative effects on the economy, then clearly something isn't working correctly, and that something most definitely is not the fault of the workers. Prices are raised by the actions of the rich significantly more easily than they are raised by bumping the minimum wage, so if raised prices are a concern then why aren't you busy lobbying the banks? Or the same corporations you're defending? 

    We have truly reached a sad state of affairs when people are defending capital above the livelihood of the labourers who produce it.

    just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    You really don't understand math and economics do you?  The CBO stated that a $15 minimum wage would cost 1.4 million or more jobs.  Guess who loses his job in that scenario? Its the guy who was making minimum wage and is now on unemployment.  How does that impact the economy?  Think about it for minute.  The light bulb might accidentally come on.  

    A minimum wage hike will definitely help some people.  Unfortunately, as the CBO said " 81% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line".  The people with the lowest skills, a prison record, Blacks, or who are teenagers are the ones who end up worse off.  I've shared before in multiple minimum wage studies, like the Seattle one, they end up with less take home money, but because of inflation caused by the minimum wage hike, they are even worse off (in Seattle the minimum wage hike lowered monthly take home pay by $125 on average per minimum wage worker).
    Nomenclature
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin

    You will be happy to learn that math works in your country also.  isn't that awesome!

    Let's take a look at what the CBO said about raising the federal minimum wage in the 


    But how can an imbecile like you hold forth on maths when you believe 3 is 1 as in the father, the son and the Holy goat.?

    Why do you think what your corupt CBO has to say has any bearing on anyone apart from brain dead Murican imbeciles like you ?

    The question just lying keeps running from and refusing to answer....Argument Topic: Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?


    You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?

    Why do you hate low paid people willing to work?

    Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?
    just_sayin
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    You really don't understand math and economics do you?

    Oh, please just stop you infuriatingly delusional imbecile. You're literally arguing that less money is better and in the same breath accusing me of not understanding math. You are a deeply ridiculous individual.

    The CBO stated that a $15 minimum wage would cost 1.4 million or more jobs.

    Listen, you absolute halfwit. Society has a finite amount of jobs which need doing and raising the minimum wage doesn't lessen that number. You keep continuously conflating completely independent variables, just like you were doing last night when you spent four hours arguing that raising the minimum wage would mean ex-convicts can't get jobs. 

    You're dumber than a broken spanner pal. Get your silly nose away from the Tucker Carlson show and into the real world where people work to earn a living, not for a pat on the head and a compliment about how well the economy is doing thanks to them being exploited.


    just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    Who makes minimum wage?  (See minimum wage)

    The latest report on 2021 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) finds that 44.4% of all employees earning the federal minimum wage are between the ages of 16 to 24.  - Studies show this reduces teen workrates by between 3 - 6 percent.

    Even among older groups, the “typical” minimum wage beneficiary doesn’t fit certain popular perceptions. Using Congressional Budget Office (CBO) methodology, economists of Miami and Trinity University found that just one in 10 of those affected by a $12 minimum wage are single parents with children. A majority of those affected are either second or third-earners in households where the average family income exceeds $50,000 per year.

    The 2021 BLS data also shows that a majority of minimum wage earners were part time (56%). In addition, 67% of minimum wage workers averaged fewer than 39 hours worked per week in their primary minimum wage job.

    Proponents say that boosting the minimum wage will reduce poverty without reducing jobs. But most credible academic evidence shows otherwise: According to a 2007 summary of the minimum wage research authored by economists at the Federal Reserve Board and the University of California-Irvine, roughly 85 percent of the best research from the past two decades shows that a higher minimum wage reduces employment.

    A survey conducted by the University of New Hampshire Survey Center finds that nearly three-quarters of surveyed US-based economists oppose a federal minimum wage of $15.00 per hour. The majority believe a wage hike of this magnitude will have negative effects on youth employment levels (83 percent), adult employment levels (52 percent), and the number of jobs available (76 percent).

    Prominent liberal economists who support a higher wage, including alumni of the Obama and Clinton administrations, oppose a federal wage hike of this magnitude.  Even liberals who can do math oppose a $15 an hour minimum wage.  

    Again, I keep repeating this, as I bury your argument with facts upon facts upon fact ,  higher minimum wages, hurt the lowest skilled, teens, Blacks, and those with prison records.  It costs them their jobs, and often work hours and benefits.  The net effect for this group is that they end up with lower incomes as a result of the higher minimum wage.

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    Again, I keep repeating this, as I bury your argument with facts upon facts upon fact

    The only thing you're burying is your own credibility. Liberal economists don't back an increase in minimum wage precisely because the fundamental basis of liberal capitalism is the exploitation of labour for profit. If you can't exploit the labour, you can't make the profit, hence why a decrease in the exploitation of labour is met with punitive action from the business class. You are one of these hyper dense individuals who doesn't comprehend the basic fundamentals of the system, and hence you believe posting a bunch of selective gobbledegook from economists invested in that system somehow makes it OK for corporations to rip off the workers. The correct descriptive phrase for your nonsensical babbling is being unable to see the wood for the trees.

  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin ;

    Argument Topic: Just saying refuses to answer 7 tim3s now ..........

    Why do you think what your corupt CBO has to say has any bearing on anyone apart from brain dead Murican imbeciles like you ?

    The question just lying keeps running from and refusing to answer....Argument Topic: Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?


    You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?

    Why do you hate low paid people willing to work?

    Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?
    Nomenclaturejust_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Nomenclature makes another fact-less and feckless post

    @Nomenclature

    You did a lot of bloviating, yet you did not present a single fact.  No support for your baseless claims either.  It has become a pattern of yours to make claims without evidence and then engage in personal attacks.  That's the sign of someone who doesn't have a good argument.

    What you call "bunch of selective gobbledegook from economists invested in that system"  are actually the vast majority of economists, period.  And at least 80 percent of ALL MINIMUM WAGE STUDIES.  Again, you made a baseless claim about the integrity of the thousands of economists and hundreds of minimum wage studies without any facts - that's because you have no facts.  That's why you attack the evidence without any support and attack me personally.  You have no real argument, just a lot of bloviating and hate.
    NomenclatureDee
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    You did a lot of bloviating, yet you did not present a single fact.

    I presented plenty of facts, but the problem is that you're too unfathomably dense to comprehend them when you see them. Facts aren't the exclusive property of the Federal Reserve Bank. Getting your information on the topic of higher wages for workers from the board of the Federal Reserve is all the evidential support necessary to demonstrate that you are a total, soda chugging imbecile who understands nothing.

    No support for your baseless claims either

    No support for my claims that workers are better off with higher wages? Are you even for real you impossibly brainless nincompoop?

    It has become a pattern of yours to make claims without evidence 

    Things which are self-evidently true don't need to be evidenced in any conversation where the person you are speaking to is not an intellectually defunct, unreasonable religious halfwit who is arguing that up is down, left is right and black is white. I don't need to give you evidence that the world is round, 1+1= 2, France is in Europe or workers are better off with higher wages. These things are all self-evidently true, and they are not refuted by quotes from the Federal Reserve Bank, you silly sausage.

    What you call "bunch of selective gobbledegook from economists invested in that system"  are actually the vast majority of economists, period.

    Your own quote illustrates that claim is not true, moron. They were objectively defined as liberal economists. Not economists, liberal economists. You are so dumb it isn't even funny. It's frightening. What do you suppose socialist economists would say?

    Never mind. It's pretty obvious your IQ is under 100.

    You have posted a ton of absolutely ridiculous objections from people with an overt conflict of interest in keeping worker's wages low, and the very idea that you think these are "facts" just illustrates your total misunderstanding of history. These objections have all been made before and they were made when the minimum wage was introduced in the first place. They were nonsense then and they are still nonsense now.

    The United States minimum wage originated with the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (FLSA), which also set overtime pay and child labor restrictions. The contemporary opposition to the FLSA foreshadowed the current arguments against raising the minimum wage. The FLSA’s opponents claimed that the president was creating a “tyrannical industrial dictatorship” and that businesses would not be able to provide any jobs if they had to cope with “everlastingly multiplying governmental mandates” and “multiplying and hampering Federal bureaucracy.” 

    These doomsday predictions proved untrue: the minimum wage did indeed impact the nature and distribution of employment, but industries did not buckle. At the time, two of the most low-paying industries in the South were the textile industry and the lumber industry. Southern textile mills did see a slight decrease in employment, but northern textile mills — which had paid slightly more than the southern textile mills prior to the institution of the FLSA — saw an employment increase of approximately equal magnitude. The lumber industry in the South and throughout the U.S. saw an increase in employment after the passage of the FLSA. Notably, other independent variables shifted in both industries: the textile industry had been trending to more automation prior to the bill, while the lumber industry was trending to a more labor-heavy resource base. Overall, the minimum wage leveled no industries and granted many workers a higher wage. 

    https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2021/01/30/no-more-lies-the-truth-about-raising-the-minimum-wage/


    Dee
  • DreamerDreamer 272 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Harvard Business review is a pretty good source.


    "@Nomenclature
    I'm sorry, did you just try claiming that the Harvard Business Journal isn't a credible source?????????"

    At least on the surface level HBR is a good source. I haven't used the source enough to know on a deeper level. The article is interesting in that more workers but less hours worked per worker.



  • DreamerDreamer 272 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Tips just create akwardness and are bribery.

    To be nice I always leave a cash tip. That way the low wage employee does not run into welfare cliffs. Though I prefer restaurants without wait staff. I tend to fall asleep for maybe five minutes and sometimes the waitstaff scares me, sheesh.

    That being said more and more places are having tip jars and asking for tips when you pay with a credit card. Even before you get your service and product.

     Literally the counter person is handing me a beverage or food behind the counter that is prepackaged taking 10 seconds. They don't deserve a tip for that. Then, there is the entire the restaurant just raised prices and I can only afford to give a low tip. Then, the waitstaff glares at me. :(

    The worst part about tips is hanging out with someone richer than you that randomly gives 100% tip or something outrageous like that. All the sudden the same tip % you have been giving your whole life is suddenly inadequate.

    I am of the opinion that every business should give at least a living wage and tips should be abolished. Tips are bribery. Living wages are dependent upon region. If you really want to be grateful leave a good review of the restaurant and waitstaff.


    just_sayin
  • DreamerDreamer 272 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: I agree with many of your points, but resorting to ad hominems is illogical and uncivil.


    I've seen plenty of unemployed people who would simply rather stay unemployed rather than work for starvation wages. A person can learn a skill from many of the free or cheap online courses. Read books, go to the gym, and become more self-actualized.

    Doing chores for relatives for room and board is pretty standard in my area while holding out for a higher paying job. The only reasons people take minimum wage jobs is out of desperation or the job is fun. A fun job would be working at a haunted house and jumping out and scaring people. :)
    Nomenclaturejust_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    I know you won't believe me, but I am so proud of you!!!  You actually posted a fact from a source.  And the source you picked is probably the most well known one for your position.  Berkeley has been the go to place for liberal cities and the Chinese to turn out studies that say the minimum wage is good and has no ill effects for at least 2 decades.  In fact, from our earlier discussion, it was the Seattle City council that when they found out that the University of Washington's study was going to report that minimum wage workers actually lost money after their minimum wage hike, they naturally turned to the source that will always say what liberal cities who pay them want them to say - see The City Knew the Bad Minimum Wage Report Was Coming Out, So It Called Up Berkeley, Seattle Weekly

    I was surprised you picked Berkeley because you made the claim that the 80 percent of all minimum wage studies that disagree with your view point and claim that minimum wage increases cost jobs, lowers worker's hours and lowers worker's benefits aren't to be trusted because they take money from biased sources (even though you provided no evidence of this).  But here you are picking Berkeley who funds much of its minimum wage studies from biased funds.  But I'm not going to harp on this too much since I'm so happy you at least choose a well known source.

    So why does Berkeley disagree with 80 percent of all minimum wage studies, other than the obvious bias issue?  Well, there are several issues with their basic methodology - and feel free to verify this in their studies (see the sections marked "Methodology Used").  When the University of Washington did its Seattle study it did a 1 to 1 comparison study.  It literally went out and interviewed numerous minimum wage workers in all fields and got their hours, benefits, and time at the company.  Then after the minimum wage went into effect it contacted each individual again and got the new information from them.  From a study perspective that is a fairly high caliber approach.  That's not how Berkeley does its studies.

    1) Berkeley does not base its research on the testimony of individual minimum wage workers.  In fact, it doesn't contact them in most cases at all.  it does phone surveys of businesses and asks questions about if they increased hiring and if they cut hours.  Its all on the honor system, no one validates the responses or checks if the employees were even working there before the minimum wage went up.

    2) Rather than contact businesses across the board for minimum wage worker information, they only look at restaurants, and they way over sample multi-location chain restaurants who are more likely to be able to absorb minimum wage increases.  That excludes the majority of minimum wage jobs from consideration and gives greater weight to chain restaurants which skewer the results.

    But hey, at least you picked a well known source.  I wish the media would sometimes go into these studies more, but I suspect that they too have a certain interest in the details not getting out.  That way they can highlight a study like Berkeley's, even though the vast majority of studies and way more credible ones disagree with it.  
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    I know you won't believe me, but I am so proud of you!!!  You actually posted a fact from a source.

    Don't make me laugh. Just because something comes from a source doesn't necessarily make it a fact. I think you're a bit confused about that.

    Berkeley has been the go to place for liberal cities and the Chinese

    Ahahahaha! Ah, I see. Berkeley is working for the Chinese, is it? Oh, you absolutely crack me up. Not only do you have the brazen audacity to source the Federal Reserve Bank, but you follow it up by implying that Berkeley University is a Chinese spy operation? Oh, you poor, delusional clown. Get your dumb, paranoid face away from Fox News you hilariously dense hillbilly imbecile.

    to turn out studies that say the minimum wage is good and has no ill effects for at least 2 decades

    You are a total, window-licking halfwit if you think Berkeley University is the biased source and the largest private bank in America is the neutral one. Claims such as this truly make your idiocy the stuff of legend. Never mind that liberals and the Chinese utterly hate each other. That unfortunate fact doesn't fit in with your wingnut neo-fascist conspiracy theories, so we'll just throw that one away shall we?

    Here's another good Chinese spy operation for you. It's called The Guardian:-

    Threat of inflation a poor argument against wage increases

    Giving low-paid workers a decent increase will make very little difference, writes Dr Robert Nicholls

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/01/threat-of-inflation-a-poor-argument-against-wage-increases

    Well, obviously Dr Nicholls is working for the Chinese, isn't he? I mean, that's the only possible reason anybody could think giving workers more money leaves them financially better off. He's a Chinese spy!!!

    Even big business itself has given up the fight, because they are struggling to find enough people who are as dumb as you are!!!!

    Why big business is giving up its fight against a higher minimum wage

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/17/economy/minimum-wage-raise/index.html

    Like the typical paleoconservative (i.e. neo-fascist) scum you are, you seem to believe the people who do the most in society should earn the least.




  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Dreamer
    I've seen plenty of unemployed people who would simply rather stay unemployed rather than work for starvation wages.
    Completely agree with you on this one, Dreamer. If you want people to work and to care about the work they do then you have to pay them a reasonable living wage. Unfortunately, offensive halfwits like @just_sayin see these people as little more than cattle who should be happy fighting over bones thrown away by the rich.
    DreamerDeejust_sayin
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    Still refusing to answer my questions, that's your thing isn't it as you just want to preach 
    just_sayinNomenclature
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Dee
    If I remember correctly you are the one who made the self-righteous claim that I don't want poor people to make a living wage.  You pretend that the negative effects of minimum wage increases aren't real, even though every credible study and the CBO have pointed out is ,that for some people, raising the minimum wage has devastating effects - job loss, loss or work hours and loss of benefits.  When minimum wage laws are implemented there is a 3 to 6 percent drop in teen employment.  Where is your compassion for teens who can't find work?  In the DC, Seattle, and NYC minimum wage increases there was a sudden job loss, particularly in the restaurant industry.  Where is your compassion for the thousands that lost their jobs?  Are you just going to pretend that they didn't lose their job and that it was then harder for them to find work?  Are you going to continue playing pretend with Nomenclature that it didn't happen?  The Harvard Business Review study of California's minimum wage increase showed that overall the average minimum wage worker's income was actually LESS post minimum wage increase, because the average number of hours that people in retail were working was reduced by about 5 hours.  Don't you care that the policy that you support resulted in the poorest of workers making LESS money?  

    It seems to me you are the one intentionally ignoring the harm caused by the policies you support.  For those who get pay raises and don't see any corresponding negative actions from it, a minimum wage hike is definitely a good thing.  What you ignore though is that the lowest skilled workers, teens, Blacks and those with prison records are often worse off after a minimum wage increase and have a much harder time finding work and rising out of minimum wage work.  
    Nomenclature
  • T = To
    I = Insure
    P = Prompt
    S = Service

  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    you are the one who made the self-righteous claim that I don't want poor people to make a living wage

    I'm pretty sure that was you. You openly suggested that giving people a living wage is a plan by the Chinese to bankrupt the country.

    You pretend that the negative effects of minimum wage increases aren't real, even though every credible study and the CBO have pointed out is ,that for some people, raising the minimum wage has devastating effects - job loss, loss or work hours and loss of benefits.

    Your self-defeating, circular reasoning is just plain idiotic. You want to punish workers on the (mostly false) grounds that if you don't punish them they'll be punished. 

    Let's say I invent a law which makes hate crimes against women illegal, and it enrages certain misogynous sections of the community so much that they go out and beat up a bunch of women. Is that an argument against making the law? Are you going to sit there like a complete moron condescending to people because they rightfully believe we should make fair laws, even if they lead to bad reactions?

    just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    You openly suggested that giving people a living wage is a plan by the Chinese to bankrupt the country.

    No.  I provided proof that the Berkeley minimum wage study had been paid by liberal city governments and the Chinese.  Stop lying.

    Your self-defeating, circular reasoning is just plain idiotic. You want to punish workers on the (mostly false) grounds that if you don't punish them they'll be punished. 

    What I provided was evidence from multiple minimum wage studies and the CBO report also that shows minimum wage hikes hurt the lowest skilled workers.  You want to ignore them and pretend their suffering doesn't exist.  Let me remind you again of some of the facts:

    1.  In Seattle, after a minimum wage hike, the average minimum wage worker was making $1,500 A YEAR ($125 A MONTH) LESS AS A RESULT OF THE MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE.

    For an average low-wage worker in Seattle, that translates into a loss of about $125 per month per job. Seattle Times, UW  study finds Seattle's minimum wage is costing jobs 

    2.  In California, a minimum wage increase resulted in the average retail minimum wage worker MAKING 13.6% LESS THAN THEY HAD BEFORE.

    which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%. -  Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation, Harvard Business Journal 

    3. After a minimum wage increase in DC, in less than 3 months, 700 RESTAURANT JOBS WERE LOST which were held by minimum wage workers.  That means these workers were not only unemployed but had fewer jobs they were qualified for available.

    The strongest evidence comes from the nation’s capital, where leisure and hospitality employment, which rose at least 3% annually over the prior four years, fell an average of 1% from a year ago in the three months through November. So instead of adding 2,000 or more jobs per year, restaurants, hotels and the rest of the leisure and hospitality sector have lost about 700 jobs.
    The timing coincides with the $1 minimum-wage hike to $10.50 an hour last July. That jump followed a boost from $8.25 to $9.50 an hour that took effect in mid-2014. Another jump to $11.50 is set for this July.
    The D.C. data are key because they reveal outright job losses confined to the city limits. Researchers studying the latest round of citywide minimum-wage hikes generally have had to rely on data for a big chunk of the broader metropolitan area, making the analysis more speculative. - 6 Big Cities See Hiring Fade After Minimum Wage Hikes,

    4.  The CBO said that a $12/$15 an hour minimum wage would cost 1.4 million jobs, cause workers to lose hours and benefits, and result in a total lower output in the economy.

    While noting there is “considerable uncertainty” about the effects of the minimum wage, a 2019 study by the Congressional Budget Office found that increasing the minimum wage by 65%, or from $7.25 per hour to $12, “would boost wages, but it would also increase joblessness, reduce business income, raise prices, and lower total output in the economy.[544] With regard to families at different income levels, the study estimated that such a law would:
    raise the average annual reported cash income of families below the poverty line by about 1.6% or $229.[545]give 74% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line.give 37% of the salary increases to families earning three or more times the poverty line.[546]* The same 2019 Congressional Budget Office study estimated that increasing the minimum wage by more than 100%, or from $7.25 per hour to $15 would:raise the annual average reported cash income of families below the poverty line by about 5.2% or $589.[547]give 81% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line.give 36% of the salary increases to families earning three or more times the poverty line.[548]
    5. Roughly 85 percent of the best research from the past two decades shows that a higher minimum wage reduces employment.

    6. The University of New Hampshire Survey Center finds that nearly three-quarters of surveyed US-based economists oppose a federal minimum wage of $15.00 per hour. The majority believe a wage hike of this magnitude will have negative effects on youth employment levels (83 percent), adult employment levels (52 percent), and the number of jobs available (76 percent).

    But you have closed your eyes to the negative consequences to raising the minimum wage and like a petulant child, you have thrown yourself on the ground and continue to scream "not so, not so" no matter how the facts stack up against your claim.  

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    No.  I provided proof that the Berkeley minimum wage study had been paid by liberal city governments and the Chinese

    LMAO!! Do you actually believe what you just wrote? Berkeley is funded by the federal government, not the Chinese mafia. Please get some help for your delusions, you profoundly ridiculous clown. You dropped a link which said Berkeley had received some financial donations from the parents of Chinese students, along with dozens of other universities. Your link didn't even mention "the Berkeley minimum wage study", nor did it mention "liberal city governments". 

    What I provided was evidence from multiple minimum wage studies and the CBO report 

    You did no such thing. You provided biased speculation about what might happen if the minimum wage were increased. Speculation which is thoroughly refuted by the documented historical record. When I explained that documented historical record to you, you bizarrely began implying that it had been falsified by the Chinese mafia. Moreover, you keep mentioning the CBO, but the claims pertinent to your argument came from the board of the largest private bank in America, not the CBO.

    the average minimum wage worker was making $1,500 A YEAR ($125 A MONTH) LESS AS A RESULT OF THE MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE.

    Increasing wages does not decrease wages, so I suggest you stop writing things and take a basic math course. If I have an apple and I add another apple, I am not left with less apples.

    For an average low-wage worker in Seattle, that translates into a loss of about $125 per month per job.

    The claim being made by the ST is that the total number of jobs decreased, not that workers were making less money after their wages were increased, you unfathomably ignorant neo-corporatist imbecile.

    In California, a minimum wage increase resulted in the average retail minimum wage worker MAKING 13.6% LESS THAN THEY HAD BEFORE.

    OK, I'm done. At least until you learn enough about math to comprehend the difference between addition and subtraction.

    Your lack of intelligence is simply jaw-dropping. You live in a country with unprecedented levels of wealth inequality, and a large part of the reason for that situation is because people like you, already delusional from a steady diet of religion and capitalist bubblegum propaganda, have been dumbed down to a point where you are willing to believe it's a good thing.

  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    OK, I'm done until you learn enough about math to comprehend the difference between addition and subtraction.

    I get it.  Math can be hard.  I think it will help you to understand better if we work through the math for the California minimum wage increase.

    The minimum wage worker in California before the minimum wage hike was making $11 dollars an hour.  For the sake of not confusing you, let's say that they all were working 40 hours a week.  That means that the average worker was making $4440.00 before the minimum wage hike.  *** Trigger Warning - Math in Progress*** 40 * $11 = $440.00.  

    The study said that workers hours were reduced 19.4%.  That means the average worker who was working 40 hours a week was now working 32.64 hours a week after getting the minimum wage increase to $12 an hour.  Thus they were making 32.64 * $12 = $391.68.  I know that is too hard for you so let's simplify it.  Let's pretend that the average worker is now working only 35 hours a week.  35 * $12 = $420 dollars.

    Now the hard part.  Which one is greater?

    Before minimum wage hike - $440.00 a week

    After minimum wage hike - $420.00 a week (using 35 hours)

    Did you figure it out?  The reduced number of hours more than offset the increase in hourly wages.  

    So, is the average California retail minimum wage worker making more or less money now?  

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @just_sayin
    I get it.  Math can be hard.

    I disagree. I've always found it fairly easy. Regardless, however much you struggle with math, nobody of even semi-reasonable intelligence could possibly think that increasing wages decreases wages, decreases average wages, or decreases the wages of the average worker. That's significantly beyond ignorance and several miles into full-blown mental retardation. The wages of the average worker are calculated by adding up the total wages of all the workers and then dividing that figure by the number of workers. It's an extremely simple concept to grasp. If you aren't mentally retarded.

  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature
    Sure wages increased.  But in your math you forgot the other side of the equation.  You forgot what was getting reduced - jobs, work hours and benefits.  Because you did not do all the math, and only considered the increases, and forgot to also calculate the reductions, and so you got the wrong answer.  
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    Sure wages increased

    Obviously. Increasing the wages of the average worker does not decrease the wages of the average worker, and attempting to argue that position illustrates the sheer depths of ridiculousness you are prepared to sink to in order to defend your absurd, upside down neo-corporate agenda. 

    You forgot what was getting reduced

    I didn't forget. I explained it to you, right here:-

    The claim being made by the ST is that the total number of jobs decreased, not that workers were making less money after their wages were increased.

    This conversation is going nowhere because you are ignorant and delusional. I don't want to be mean, but that's simply the reality.


    Dee
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin


    @Dee
    If I remember correctly you are the one who made the self-righteous claim that I don't want poor people to make a living wage.

    " self righteous " the only one being that is you as you boast and brag about what a great Christian you are. You do not want poor people making a decent living wage you keep telling us how deeply offended you are at me and others suggesting otherwise, why do you think only Christian elitist are entitled to decent wages?



      You pretend that the negative effects of minimum wage increases aren't real, even though every credible study and the CBO have pointed out is ,that for some people, raising the minimum wage has devastating effects - job loss, loss or work hours and loss of benefits. 

    I still don't live in your shithole of a majority Christian  country that believes exploiting the weakest in society is signs of a progressive civilised country

     When minimum wage laws are implemented there is a 3 to 6 percent drop in teen employment.  Where is your compassion for teens who can't find work?  In the DC, Seattle, and NYC minimum wage increases there was a sudden job loss, particularly in the restaurant industry.  Where is your compassion for the thousands that lost their jobs?  Are you just going to pretend that they didn't lose their job and that it was then harder for them to find work?  Are you going to continue playing pretend with Nomenclature that it didn't happen?  The Harvard Business Review study of California's minimum wage increase showed that overall the average minimum wage worker's income was actually LESS post minimum wage increase, because the average number of hours that people in retail were working was reduced by about 5 hours.  Don't you care that the policy that you support resulted in the poorest of workers making LESS money?  

    I still don't live in the US , I live in a society tha has minimun wage laws and protection for workers , things you believe only apply to people like you, right?

    It seems to me you are the one intentionally ignoring the harm caused by the policies you support.  For those who get pay raises and don't see any corresponding negative actions from it, a minimum wage hike is definitely a good thing.  What you ignore though is that the lowest skilled workers, teens, Blacks and those with prison records are often worse off after a minimum wage increase and have a much harder time finding work and rising out of minimum wage work.  

    Right got that wage increases ( except for you ) make people worse of , your st- pidity I beyond belief . 

    Here is my original post you still refuse to address...........

    Argument Topic: Just saying refuses to answer 7 tim3s now
     

    Why do you think what your corupt CBO has to say has any bearing on anyone apart from brain dead Murican imbeciles like you ?

    The question just lying keeps running from and refusing to answer....Argument Topic: Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?


    You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?

    Why do you hate low paid people willing to work?

    Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 853 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    Why do you think what your corupt CBO has to say has any bearing on anyone apart from brain dead Murican imbeciles like you ?

    The CBO is a nonpartisan organization whose job is to provide congress with timely and objective financial analyses of economic and budgetary decisions.  You have provided no factual evidence that they are "corrupt".  You might as well be Nomenclature with such fact-less and feckless allegations. 

    The question just lying keeps running from and refusing to answer....Argument Topic: Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?
    Do I need to have another math lesson with you like I did with Nomenclature?  I cited multiple reports showing that the end results for minimum wage increases in California, the Seattle study, and New York City, was that after the minimum wage hike, the take home pay of those making minimum wage was LOWER than it was before the minimum wage went up.  Did you not see that?  Did you not understand that AFTER the minimum wage increase went into effect the net result was that due to loss of work hours, benefits and jobs, the overall take home pay of minimum wage works was LESS????   Did you get that?  Were you paying attention?

    The end result of these hikes was that life was harder for minimum wage workers.  Those with the lowest skills, teens, Blacks, and those with prison records were especially harmed by them.  With the Seattle study author noting that some of the least skilled workers had become UNEMPLOYABLE WITHIN SEATTLE'S CITY LIMITS.

    You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?
    Jesus didn't mention a minimum wage.  The only applicable parable is when he tales of a man who hires people early in the morning, and then later in the day hires other workers.  At the end of the day the man starts with those who worked only 1 hour and gave them the agreed on wage.  When the ones who worked all day arrived, the man gave them the same pay as those who only worked 1 hour.  When the workers complained the man told them that he hadn't cheated them, but had paid them the amount they had agreed on.  I don't see how that makes your point.

    Should employers treat employees fairly?  sure. Does that mean that they can afford to pay any amount the government mandates?   If governments can just declare a new minimum wage and employers must pay it whatever it is, why not have a minimum wage of $100 dollars an hour, or $1,000 dollars an hour?   That would be much more helpful.  Answer my question for a change.  It will be very telling about your understanding of how a business operates.

    I still don't live in the US 

    This might come as a shock to you, but math and economics work in your country too.  If you artificially increase a business' costs with a higher minimum wage than the market dictates, without increasing their revenues, then something must be cut for revenues to just stay the same.  Those cuts are work hours, benefits, and even jobs.  

    Nomenclature
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