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Nomenclature

@just_sayin

The CBO is a nonpartisan organization whose job is to provide congress with timely and objective financial analyses of economic and budgetary decisions.  You have provided no factual evidence that they are "corrupt".  You might as well be Nomenclature with such fact-less and feckless allegations.

Are you even for real? You didn't link the CBO. You linked Just Facts, which is a right wing Christian website with a notorious Conservative bias. The link which is supposed to take the user to the CBO study on the Just Facts website takes the user to another Just Facts webpage. Please stop your bait and switch tactics you horrifically dishonest, corporatist twonk. You haven't linked the CBO, so stop pretending that you have. The actual CBO study which your wingnut Conservative Christian website selectively cherry picks sentences from, concludes that raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour would produce a net benefit to workers of $333 billion:-

• From 2021 to 2031, the cumulative pay of affected people would increase, on net, by $333 billion—an increased labor cost for firms considerably larger than the net effect on the budget deficit during that period.
• That net increase would result from higher pay ($509 billion) for people who were employed at higher hourly wages under the bill, offset by lower pay ($175 billion) because of reduced employment under the bill.

Do I need to have another math lesson with you like I did with Nomenclature?

Was this the "math lesson" where you tried to argue that increasing the average wage decreases the average wage? My God, you are even worse than Maxx for projecting your own ignorance onto others. Literally, what is actually wrong with you? Which part of your brain is so fundamentally defective that I have to physically explain to you how to calculate an average, only for you to come back three hours later and claim you gave me a math lesson?

You are so unintelligent and delusional it is downright offensive even engaging with you. You misrepresent everything you see, hear or read.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Nomenclature is dishonest

@Nomenclature

You haven't linked the CBO, so stop pretending that you have.

The Just Facts site talks about what the CBO said.  I did not misrepresent what the CBO. said and never claimed my link was the CBO's.  YOU ARE LYING FOR SAYING SO.

If you want the CBO report, here it is.  https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2021-02/56975-Minimum-Wage.pdf
From the CBO report:

Employment would be reduced by 1.4 million workers, or 0.9 percent, according to CBO’s average estimate;

Higher wages would increase the cost to employers of producing goods and services. Employers would pass some of those increased costs on to consumers in the form of higher prices, and those higher prices, in turn, would lead consumers to purchase fewer goods and services. Employers would consequently produce fewer goods and services, and as a result, they would tend to reduce their employment of workers at all wage levels. 

When the cost of employing low-wage workers goes up, the relative cost of employing higher-wage workers or investing in machines and technology goes down. Some employers would therefore respond to a higher minimum wage by shifting toward those substitutes and reducing their employment of low-wage workers.

Was this the "math lesson" where you tried to argue that increasing the average wage decreases the average wage?

The math lesson I am referring to is where I went through the California minimum wage increase with you.  Again, which is larger?

Before minimum wage wages - $11 an hour * 40 hours a week = $440
OR
After minimum wage wages - $12 an hour * 35 hours a week = $420 

Apparently, you haven't figured out which of those numbers is bigger.  I know you are always trying to convince your significant other that size doesn't matter, but in take home pay it does.  

Nomenclature

@just_sayin

The Just Facts site talks about what the CBO said.

Please just stop. The Just Facts site is a wingnut far right Conservative Christian blog which is absolutely notorious for its political bias. It is a galaxy away from the "non-partisan organization" which you claimed to have linked. You are not being honest and the grossly misleading statements you keep continuously making are entirely absent credibility. 

I did not misrepresent what the CBO. said

Please just stop. Your dishonesty is infuriating. The CBO concluded that workers would be 333 billion dollars better off with a national minimum wage of $15 per hour. You made no mention of this and neither did the source you linked. You have instead been arguing that workers would be worse off.

The math lesson I am referring to is where I went through the California minimum wage increase with you. 

I'm simply not interested in your fictional interpretation of our conversation. Your penchant for myth-building rivals that of Maxx.

Dee

@just_sayin


The CBO is a nonpartisan organization whose job is to provide congress with timely and objective financial analyses of economic and budgetary decisions.  You have provided no factual evidence that they are "corrupt".  You might as well be Nomenclature with such fact-less and feckless allegations. 




Argument Topic 1 : Just lying caught lying on what the CBO actually said about minimun wage ......


Just Lying says my claims are fact - less and feckless allegations yet they're directly from the ........the CBO ........I can just see your dumb face turning bright red at yiu beeb caught lying  .......again 

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019
https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy Institute

The CBO suppot mininmun wage rates ,Just Lying hates the poor so invents a bunch of  lies to support his conclusions that only white well to do American "christians" deserve pay raises

Do I need to have another math lesson with you like I did with Nomenclature?  I cited multiple reports showing that the end results for minimum wage increases in California, the Seattle study, and New York City, was that after the minimum wage hike, the take home pay of those making minimum wage was LOWER than it was before the minimum wage went up.  Did you not see that?  Did you not understand that AFTER the minimum wage increase went into effect the net result was that due to loss of work hours, benefits and jobs, the overall take home pay of minimum wage works was LESS????   Did you get that?  Were you paying attention?

The end result of these hikes was that life was harder for minimum wage workers.  Those with the lowest skills, teens, Blacks, and those with prison records were especially harmed by them.  With the Seattle study author noting that some of the least skilled workers had become UNEMPLOYABLE WITHIN SEATTLE'S CITY LIMITS.

But your source the CBO disagrees with you ........The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy Institute

The CBO suppot mininmun wage rates ,Just Lying hates the poor so invents a bunch of  lies to support his conclusions that only white well to do American "christians" deserve pay raises

Jesus didn't mention a minimum wage.  The only applicable parable is when he tales of a man who hires people early in the morning, and then later in the day hires other workers.  At the end of the day the man starts with those who worked only 1 hour and gave them the agreed on wage.  When the ones who worked all day arrived, the man gave them the same pay as those who only worked 1 hour.  When the workers complained the man told them that he hadn't cheated them, but had paid them the amount they had agreed on.  I don't see how that makes your point.

You tell ll us all what a wonderful Christian you are because you talk down to the poorest and weakest in society and offer them food if they listen to you preach and lecture to them ,  you tell them they are not worthy of decent wages for their labour as that only applies to rich "Christians " and not them, you're some piece of work buddy.

You deny what written in your own bible that you've never read regards treating others with respect , seriously?

Luke 6:31 ESV / 124 helpful votes 

And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Except of course if  you're a rich  American " christian" 

Ephesians 6:9 ESV / 102 helpful votes 

Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

Except of course if  you're a rich American " christian" 

Proverbs 11:1 ESV / 85 helpful votes 

A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is his 

Except of course if  you're a rich  American " christian" 

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV / 66 helpful votes 

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Sounds like Just Lying is in a heap of trouble

James 5:4 ESV / 65 helpful votes 

Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.

Except of course if  you're an American " christian

Should employers treat employees fairly?  sure

Why are you saying " sure" ? How can someone live a decent life on dreadful wages? I've asked you this 11 times now and you refuse to answer, how can one pay for healthcare , housing , education , clothing , food etc,  etc on the wages you think are unfair to you and fellow Christians yet fair for the poor , talk me through that you sanctimonious hypocrite

. Does that mean that they can afford to pay any amount the government mandates?   If governments can just declare a new minimum wage and employers must pay it whatever it is, why not have a minimum wage of $100 dollars an hour, or $1,000 dollars an hour?   That would be much more helpful.  Answer my question for a change.  It will be very telling about your understanding of how a business operates.

The government's in most progressive countries suggest a minmun wage no goverment has suggested a 100 an hour , your Strawman fails yet again 

This might come as a shock to you, but math and economics work in your country too.  If you artificially increase a business' costs with a higher minimum wage than the market dictates, without increasing their revenues, then something must be cut for revenues to just stay the same.  Those cuts are work hours, benefits, and even jobs.  

What's hit you full force in the face at this stage is your constant lying has caught you out and the CBO your own source prove you don't read what they actually say as you prefer lying , the CBO have done the maths and the economics for you and you're refuse to accept their findings.

It's truly hilarious that Ias a European  has to educate  your own as to what you own  CBO actually stated .......

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy 

Why do you hate low paid people willing to work?

Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?

Dee

@just_sayin


The CBO ( your source)  disagree with your lies .......

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...

CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy  | Economic Policy 

Dee

@just-sayin

Just saying being a well to do American " christian"  supports the exploitation and brutalistion of fellow Americans just for the fact that are mostly poor and majority black ; after all Repuplican  Jesus did say only  rich white American "Christians " shall inherit the earth.

Just sayin states only wage raise for the rich work and raising wages for the poor is actually a gross  injustice   ( he sounds like the elitist May Caeser ) 

Here is the system Just saying thinks is a just and fair one for the poor ......

Both violations of child labor laws and state legislative proposals to roll back child labor protections are on the rise across the country, according to a comprehensive new Economic Policy Institute report on child labor standards. The number of minors employed in violation of child labor laws has increased 37% in the last year and skyrocketed 283% since 2015. Meanwhile, at least 10 states have introduced or passed laws rolling back child labor protections in the past two years (Arkansas, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin). 

The report comes as recent high-profile investigations have uncovered child labor violations across the country, including at Packers Sanitation Services, Inc., which illegally employed over 100 children between the ages of 13 and 17 in hazardous occupations at meatpacking facilities. These children worked illegally on overnight shifts cleaning razor-sharp saws and other high-risk equipment, and at least three suffered injuries. Recent Department of Labor cases and media reports have also made clear that unaccompanied migrant youth left in limbo by a broken U.S. immigration system have become particularly vulnerable to exploitation by employers.  

“Child labor laws are under attack in states across the country, just as violations of these standards are rising. The trend reflects a coordinated multi-industry push to expand employer access to low-wage labor, with the end goal of rewriting federal child labor laws and other worker protections for the whole country. Children of families in poverty, and especially Black, brown, and immigrant youth, stand to suffer the most harm from such changes,” said Jennifer Sherer, senior state policy coordinator for EPI’s Economic Analysis and Research Network (EARN) Worker Power Project. 

just_sayin

@Dee

The CBO ( your sorce )  disagree with your lies .......

No.  The CBO is nonpartisan.  Their role is to share both the benefits and the negative consequences of economic and budgetary actions.  I've not claimed that some people would not be helped by a minimum wage.  What I keep saying is that the lowest skilled, teens, Blacks and those with prison records are much more likely to be hurt by a minimum wage increase, than they are to be helped by one, due to loss of jobs, loss of working hours and loss of benefits.

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

FYI - just to keep things straight you are referencing the 2019, rather than the 2021.  Just to keep things clear.  Most things are the same, I just want you to be aware that we have been talking about 2 documents.

Some people will indeed be helped by a minimum wage increase.  However, as the 2019 explicitly states:

On the basis of those effects and CBO’s estimate of the median effect on employment, the $15 option would reduce total real (inflation-adjusted) family income in 2025 by $9 billion, or 0.1 percent.

Wow, so the OVERALL effect is that real family incomes will ... wait for it ... DECREASE.  Are you sure you understand math?

As the 2019 report points out that the people who benefit most are NOT minimum wage earners:

• give 81% of the resultant salary increases to families above the poverty line.
• give 36% of the salary increases to families earning three or more times the poverty line.

CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy  | Economic Policy 

It also shows that it will increase the deficit:

The cumulative budget deficit over the 2021–2031 period would increase by $54 billion. 

increase Inflation:

Higher prices for goods and services—stemming from the higher wages of workers paid at or near the minimum wage, such as those providing long-term health care—would contribute to increases in federal spending.

and increase unemployment:

Employment would be reduced by 1.4 million workers, or 0.9 percent, according to CBO’s average estimate;  (though it could be as much as 2.3 million)

The CBO report doesn't consider how employers will adjust workers hours or benefits.  It is beyond the scope of the CBOs work.

Dee

@just_sayin

Argument Topic : Just Lyin continues to deny what the CBO claim about hiring wages for the low paid ...........

The CBO ( your source) still  disagree with your lies ....... I even highlighted the relevant parts for you ...What? You're welcome.......

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...

CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy  | Economic Policy 

Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?

Just Lyin refuses to address this as low wages don't affect him and fellow elitist  white "christians" 

You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?

Just lyin refuses to acknowledge what his own bible says about treating those less well off

Why do you hate low paid mostly black people willing to work?

Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?

Is it because you and fellow " christians " get to feel superior by talking down to them by telling them low wages only apply to them ?

Do you feel great for handing them a hot meal and insisting they  pray for their meal?

Nomenclature

@Dee

Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?

I have to say the way this person relentlessly misrepresents information is extremely shocking.

Nomenclature

@just_sayin

No.  The CBO is nonpartisan.

The CBO doesn't need to be partisan in order to disagree with your flagrant misrepresentation of its data. What are you actually talking about? You are clearly the partisan, not the CBO. You are a wingnut who is selectively cut and pasting sections of data and completely omitting others which disprove what you are arguing. 

Wow, so the OVERALL effect is that real family incomes will ... wait for it ... DECREASE.  Are you sure you understand math?

As per usual, it is you who doesn't understand. What you have quoted is national data which considers the effects of the minimum wage on the income of all families, both lower income and higher income. In other words, lower income families become financially better off and higher income families become financially worse off. It would reduce financial inequality by redistributing some excess income from higher earning families to lower earning ones.

I twice quoted for you the CBO's conclusion that minimum wage workers would be 333 billion dollars better off with the increase in wages, but instead of accepting that as proof you are wrong, you have simply gone diving back into the data to find yet more text you can distort the meaning of.

You are significantly beyond dishonest. What I am seeing from you is textbook political fanaticism. You are misrepresenting the facts continuously and relentlessly in order to justify your existing partisan allegiance to the American Republican Party, the party of corporate interests.

Dee

@Nomenclature

This is the true face of American Christian bigots, money grabbing scum bags who actually think Jesus was the very same as them , just lyin is a particularly nasty  example of such

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Why do you lie, Dee?

@Dee

Here is the system Just saying thinks is a just and fair one for the poor ......

Why do you lie, Dee?  I don't support illegal child labor practices.  

I want people to get ahead.  You on the other hand, want teenagers, those with low skills, Blacks and those with a prison record to potentially lose their jobs, lose their work hours, or lose their benefits by your support of a minimum wage law.  Even though you have been presented the evidence that there are negative consequences suffered by those with low skills, teens, Blacks and those with a record.  You don't care that it makes their life more difficult.  You don't care that it removes rungs on the ladder of success so they have a harder time finding work and good jobs, and it removes opportunities for them to get work experience and establish a record of being a good worker.  You don't care that the vast majority of benefit from minimum wage increases doesn't even go to those who make minimum wage.  After numerous real world examples are presented to you, you pretend that the evil done to the poorest of people is "good for them".  

Nomenclature

@just_sayin

I want people to get ahead.

By expecting them to work for wages they can't afford to live on? So that large corporations can continue to make record profits?

You on the other hand, want teenagers, those with low skills, Blacks and those with a prison record to potentially lose their jobs, lose their work hours, or lose their benefits by your support of a minimum wage law.

You're overtly misrepresenting other people's arguments again. I've noticed that's pretty much all you do. I dare you to find any statement from Dee claiming he wants people to lose their jobs. He simply wants people to be paid fairly for the work they do. 

The fact of the matter is that if a job needs doing then increasing the minimum wage isn't going to mean it suddenly no longer needs doing, and corporations can't be permitted to blackmail labour by threats of cutting jobs if the government insists it pay that labour fairly. 

You don't care that it makes their life more difficult

Paying people more money does not make their life more difficult you back to front imbecile.

John_C_87

@just_sayin
They have your number and you have been dialed in...........Keep your head down.........

The argument is Tips is to establish independence in the hospitality services where skills like with schooling is honed to enhance advancement into self-employment of triple figure jobs with experience. You do not understand this now but there are two paths service hospitality workers go acting, and private hospitality like Butlers, female personal assistants, personal chefs, and so on.

Dee

@just_sayin

Argument Topic 1 : Just lyin insists the lowest paid in the US ( mostly blacks) should not request higher wages as its totally unfair and unjust as only  white middle class people deserve pay rises 


Argument Topic 2 : Just Lyin continues to deny what the CBO claim about hiring wages for the low paid ...........


Argument Topic 3 : Just lyin supports wages as low as possible because he points out that the " benifits" of such are good for all , child labour for slave wages is a necessity according to his reasoning 


Argument Topic 4: Despite being asked 17 times now ace and white " christian " supremacist refuses to answer .......

The CBO ( your source) still  disagree with your lies ....... I even highlighted the relevant parts for you ...What? You're welcome.......

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...
CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage

The report finds that a $15 minimum wage would increase the wages of millions of low-wage workers, increase the average incomes of low- and lower-middle-income families, reduce poverty, shift money from corporate profits to the wages of low-wage workers, and reduce inequality.8 Jul 2019

https://www.epi.org › press › cbo-re...

CBO report shows broad benefits from higher minimum wage | Economic Policy  | Economic Policy 

Just lying refuses to answer....tell me how can someone live on the  horrendously low  wages you say are " fair" and have any sort of a decent life?

Just Lyin refuses to address this as low wages don't affect him and fellow elitist  white "christians" 

You also suggested that Jesus would support the shafting of low paid workers and refused to answer what he said about treating others whys that ?

Just lyin refuses to acknowledge what his own bible says about treating those less well off

Why do you hate low paid mostly black people willing to work?

Why do  you applaud a systen that allows you rights but denys the lowest paid protection under law?

Is it because you and fellow " christians " get to feel superior by talking down to them by telling them low wages only apply to them ?

Do you feel great for handing them a hot meal and insisting they  pray for their meal?

Dee

@Nomenclature

I dare you to find any statement from Dee claiming he wants people to lose their jobs. He simply wants people to be paid fairly for the work they do. 

Thanks for the support Nom , this guy is a pretty vile sanctimonious bigot who dares suggest the most vulnerable in society are not worthy of better treatment.

I just bet these unfortunates are given a meal once in a while at his local indoctrination  centre ( church )  where they are instructed in " real Christianity " Republican style , could we expect any better from racist bigots like Just lyin when his best example of a" perfect Christian" is Donald Trump? 

Nomenclature

@Dee

I just bet these unfortunates are given a meal once in a while at his local indoctrination  centre ( church )  where they are instructed in " real Christianity "

That's the real irony at play here. These guys campaign against measures aimed at reducing poverty, and then pretend they're your friend when you need to use their soup kitchen just to feed yourself.