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Does "under God" belong in the pledge?

Opening Argument

The age-old debate. I don't think it does because not everyone needs to believe in God; even though our country was built by religious people, it was not built specifically on religious values. Our Constitution is also based off of freedom, including the freedom of religion and freedom of expression. This means that designating our national pledge towards theism, and arguably Christianity, is exclusive of other forms of religion and expression. It is fine for people to continue to use "Under God" in the pledge if they believe in God, but it is not necessary and should not be included in the official text.
joecavalrynatbaronsmeshotyoeEmeryPearsonNope
  1. Does "under God" belong in the pledge?

    18 votes
    1. Yes
      61.11%
    2. No
      38.89%



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Arguments

  • Yes, because American was founded with the help of god.
    EmeryPearsonBaconToes
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • @joecavalry Then why was it only added recently? The phrase was added in 1954 as a political tactic to try and suppress modernism. Also before, founding fathers referred to our nation as "conceived in liberty" etc.
    EmeryPearson
  • Even if we should remove it, can you imagine what kind of controversy it would generate to actually remove something like that?
    EmeryPearson
  • agsragsr 812 Pts
    @melanielust, do you have any supporting evidence that it was added to support modernism?
    Live Long and Prosper
  • @agsr My bad, it was trying to suppress modern American communists in the 50s (who were generally atheist), not modernists in general. Here's a good article about it:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/27/opinion/one-nation-under-god.html
    agsrnatbaronsEmeryPearson
  • agsragsr 812 Pts
    @melanielust, that was really informative!  Thanks for sharing. 
    EmeryPearson
    Live Long and Prosper
  • I agree with @melanielust .
    melanielustEmeryPearson
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited May 2017
    Yes, "Under God" does belong in the pledge of allegiance and here's why.

    Our Declaration of Independence contains the fundamental principles of our Country. If the Constitution is the six pillars of our country then the Declaration of Independence is the foundation supporting the pillars.  That being said, our Declaration of Independence sets forth the justification of entitlement concerning our freedoms.  In layman's terms, the DOI explains why we are free and why we're going to stay free from tyranny and oppression.

    That all being said, the DOI explains plainly in the introduction paragraph:

    1. That a break in political ties is required and
    2. That the movement to separate is a given right by nature and by God.

    The Preamble (My favorite part) goes on to justify a rebellion against King George III.  The justification is an explanation of how the people of the Colonies all believe as one that there are certain truths that are self-evident (Obvious), that all Men are created equal and that they are endowed (Given) by God unalienable (Unable to be taken away) rights.  Among the rights listed as unalienable were "Life" "Liberty" and "The pursuit of Happiness".

    Lastly the Resolution: "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor".

    This last part is equally important as the Representatives made it clear that they wanted their actions to be judged by God and were appealing to "His" authority.  The Representatives go on to state that they firmly rely upon the protection of "Divine Providence" (God's protection).

    Now I said all of that so that I can say this: this is The United States, we have a long established way of life here, our way of life and our principles are rooted firmly in certain beliefs and among those beliefs is the idea that we are entitled to "Life" "Liberty" and "The Pursuit of Happiness".  Moreover is the idea that we have been gifted these rights by a higher power and thus they cannot be taken away by anyone.  I don't think it's anything but normal that anyone who wants to be a part of this Nation be required to pledge their allegiance to our Country and to adopt our fundamental principles.  If any Citizen does not hold to our Nation's fundamental principles then I would personally question their Loyalty as a matter of reasonable doubt.
    SuperSith89EmeryPearsonSonofasonWokeWhale
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk Wow.  Was ready to post my argument, but that really does sum it up.  May I add that taking God out of anything is catastrophic.  Schools for example: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/education-expert-removing-bible-prayer-public-schools-has-caused-decline.  
    EmeryPearson
  • @Vaulk, you made great points.  However, the flip side is the message that atheists are not part of the country DNA?
    EmeryPearson
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited June 2017
    @CuriousGeorge , Just as other groups were not part of the Country's DNA at the time of establishment (Buddhists, Muslims, ect).  If Atheism was not written into the founding principles of the U.S. at it's establishment...then oh well.  I think maybe what you might have meant to insinuate (And I could always be wrong here) is that somehow my assessment means that Atheists by nature of belief aren't loyal to the United States because they don't believe in God.  So allow me to elaborate, believing that there's no such thing as "God" doesn't mean that you cannot acknowledge that a country has established itself as a free and sovereign Nation because they are "Under God".  So in layman's terms, you don't have to believe in God to respect that a Country's foundation is built upon the belief of God.  Our Freedom is God given as per our Founding Fathers, respecting that has nothing to do with your own personal beliefs.
    EmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CuriousGeorgeCuriousGeorge 107 Pts
    edited June 2017
    @Vaulk, while what you are saying is valid, atheists feel somewhat aliienated when they hear how our country is established under God. It's not terrible and certainly can be accepted, but....
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    @CuriousGeorge, Well we're at the new age issue then...people's feelings versus the facts.  I'd consider myself a very reasonable person by any measure and reasonably speaking...the reason the Founding Fathers established our Freedom as a "God given right" is the same reason that most European Countries declared that the rulers of each country were blessed by God...it simply makes it near impossible to contest.  I mean...at the time...who in their right mind would go against the "All mighty" and his ordained leaders of the world? 

    So likewise, in turn, the United States' Freedom and Sovereignty were established as "The will of the All Mighty".  I don't honestly see how it could have been any other way at the time.  Can you imagine any group of self-respecting people at the time claiming to be free from the rule of Britain simply because they "Thought it was better that way"?  You can't rally a nation to rise up against tyranny, oppression and the strength of an Army with "Natural ideology"...it's never been done.  While it makes sense and is reasonable to propose realistic ideas and reasonable cause as the motivator to fight and most certainly sacrifice one's own life...people won't do it.

    I'd honestly like to see a social experiment where two sides were pitted in competition with each other to see who can execute an uprising first.  One side would be religious idealists and the other would be Scientists devoid of religious belief.  Both groups could be subjected to equal discrimination, oppression, tyranny and injustice and the goal would be to determine which set of principles were more likely to justify and therefor be the proximate cause of an uprising against said maltreatment.  The issue of course would be that no one in the groups could be from the United States as they would be preconditioned (Biased) to believe that they are entitled to freedom from tyranny and oppression.

    My point is simply that the Founders of our great Country were brilliant Men, they used the most powerful driving force in the World to justify their actions  Instead of proposing that Britain had treated the Colonies in an unethical manner...they suggested that Britain and more specifically King George III was against God.  Due to the very nature of the vast majority of Colonists being Christian...that was not acceptable and served as more than enough reason to rally as a Nation against those that would defy God's laws.

    Pretty smart huh?
    islander507CuriousGeorgeWhyTrumpEmeryPearsonDFG44
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk, excellent argument.  That was certainly genius  at the time.
  • @Vaulk, your point well taken. Agreed.
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    While we all agree that it was a great idea...our Founding Fathers certainly weren't the first people to use Religion as a political driving force lol.
    WhyTrump
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • meshotyoemeshotyoe 18 Pts
    edited June 2017
    Yes, it simpolizes the base of America.
    EmeryPearson
  • Really great arguments here - but I just wanted to say I wasn't talking about taking it OUT of the pledge, just whether it should have been added in the first place.
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited June 2017
    @melanielust ,

    Good point, we got a little off topic there.  I suppose in order to determine whether or not it should have been added, we'd have to take into account why it was added in the first place and whether or not the reasoning was justified.  I read a great article from the Business Insider explaining that:

    1. The original Pledge of Allegiance (Which didn't contain the words "Under God") was written by a Minister named Francis Bellamy in 1892. 
    2.  It wasn't until 1948 that an attorney named Louis Bowman added the phrase "Under God" during the Pledge at a meeting for the Sons of the American Revolution, claiming that Abraham Lincoln (16th POTUS) used the phrase during his Gettysburg Address.  Transcripts of the Address confirm that Lincoln did indeed state that "The Nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom". 
    3.  Now, ect ect, POTUS Eisenhower ended up meeting Bowman, heard his version, liked the phrase and during the height of the Cold War suggested that Bowman reintroduce the bill to congress suggesting the addition, Bowman had tried before and had been rejected.  POTUS Eisenhower also had "In God we Trust" added as the Nation's Motto 2 years later...apparently he was very Religious.

    Now I don't see any ill-intent in this but on the other hand the addition wasn't necessary.  It would appear that the addition of the phrase to our Pledge was more of a personal preference to a select few.  I would however, have to argue that while the nature of the Bill was personal...no one seemed to oppose it.  In fact it wasn't an issue until very recently.  Likewise, the Declaration of Independence is brimming with references to God being the bestowing authority of our Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.  Honestly I could go either way on this but I'm leaning more towards the "Under God" being in-line with the DOI.  If the DOI had included a reference to each Man's right to refute God as an existential being...then later on down the line I don't think anyone would have found it improper to add a phrase to the Pledge along the lines of "Unless you don't believe in God".  Likewise in this regard, the addition of "Under God" compliments the founding principles of our Nation and I personally believe it should be there.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/under-god-added-to-pledge-of-allegiance-2014-6



    melanielustEmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • EmeryPearsonEmeryPearson 97 Pts
    edited May 2
    No, due to the function of the pledge. If you specifically must be theist in order to recite the pledge honesty, then it's not serving it's function. 

    Only theists may be honest when pledging allegiance, and this doesn't apply to all theists either.

    The pledge only accounts for theistic loyalty to the country, as atheists must lie in order to recite it.

    It should not have been added, as if it is a tool, the action decreased it's value, as the pledge can only be honestly recited by theists.



    On a more personal note, I do not recite the pledge for this reason. As I must be dishonest or exclusive, which means I am not really making the pledge. I also specifically had all references of God removed during my swearing in for the Military, as I would have to be dishonest or exclusive, making the pledge meaningless.
    Nope
  • BaconToesBaconToes 158 Pts
    i fart cows
  • SonofasonSonofason 68 Pts
    @Vaulk, you made great points.  However, the flip side is the message that atheists are not part of the country DNA?
    I would argue that those atheists who are unwilling to acknowledge as Vaulk has said, that "the addition of "Under God" compliments the founding principles of our Nation", and therefore ought to be preserved, even if only for the sake of those believers who wish to preserve it, perhaps ought not be considered citizens of this great nation at all.  
    EmeryPearson
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 44 Pts
    Strictly speaking, it does not, since the US legally is a multiconfessional state and does not give preference to a single religious stance. At the same time, it makes sense tradition-wise, since historically the US was founded as a state based on a novel interpretation of Christian morals and beliefs, and proclaiming respect towards those morals and beliefs is somewhat expected from the person that wants to be the US citizen.

    I don't think the exact wording of the pledge is nearly as important as what it is supposed to symbolize. That said, if we could remove this line from the pledge without causing a strong negative emotional response from people, then I think it would be a reasonable action to take.
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited May 8
    There's something to be said about Atheist not being part of the Country's DNA.  That is, they're just not.  I'm sure that somewhere out there, someone has an all inclusive list of all the amazing achievements that arose from Atheism however, the establishment, creation and fundamental principles of the United States are not among those achievements.

    Don't worry, there are several other worldviews that didn't have much of a hand in the Country's DNA either...Atheists aren't alone.  There is something to be said however, about how Christianity paved the way for Atheism to be acceptable as a worldview, more to follow on that in the future I'm sure but the simple fact is that Christianity is what pressed the advancement of the sciences, which ultimately paved the way for the justification of Modern Western Atheism.  Also while Christianity has a bloody history, Christians, unlike some religions today, don't kill people for being Atheists.  There's something to be said about the level of freedom that exists in our Country where Atheists and Theists can live in harmony despite the country's bedrock being rooted in Religion.
    EmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • funpersonfunperson 20 Pts
    Pledge shouldn't even exist IMO. I don't like unconditional alliances because it implies that you have to side with your ally even if you think they go wrong, so if somebody is not supportive of an action that America takes, he/she should not have to consider America an ally.
    EmeryPearson
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    @funperson

    If somebody is not supportive of an action that America takes, he/she may leave the United States and be free of citizenship there at any point.  No one can be compelled to remain a citizen of the United States.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • BaconToesBaconToes 158 Pts
    the U.S. is not founded on the principle of Christianity. It was founded on the principle of religious freedom.
    EmeryPearson
    i fart cows
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    @BaconToes

    The United States Supreme Court has formally and officially acknowledged the Declaration of Independence as containing the fundamental principles of the United States and as being the mind and spirit of the Constitution.  That said, the DOI establishes firmly that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (Fundamental principles of our country) are unalienable because they are God given rights.

    If that somehow doesn't establish the foundation of the United States as Christian then I'm not sure what would.
    EmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk

    The Constitution is a wholly secular document, and is the ultimate law of the land.

    The Declaration of Independence is not law, nor is it precedent. 

    But either of these facts doesn't discount that 'under god' shouldn't be in the pledge, as you eliminate polytheists and atheists from honestly reciting it, limiting what group of citizens may actually recite it without being dishonest, or without modifying it. 

    If you see no issue with limiting the honest recital of the pledge to monotheists, then there is no problem. I don't share this perspective however.
    BaconToes
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited May 15
    @EmeryPearson

    Let me first fully and solidly acknowledge that the Declaration of Independence is not law, nor is it precedent.

    That being said, the United States Supreme Court is the absolute most powerful arbiter of the law in our land, they are the ultimate authority on what is and is not Constitutional and according to the supreme arbiter of the law...the Declaration of Independence is absolutely relevant when considering all things pertaining to the U.S. Constitution.

    So while technically you're correct that the DOI isn't law, the fact still remains that the DOI is the mind and the spirit of the Constitution...not to mention the entire fundamental principle of it.  Your argument is essentially that it's irrelevant what the Constitution is built upon...the fundamental principle of the Constitution doesn't matter...it's only what's technically inside the Constitution that determines it's secular status.  This argument is a misrepresentation of the truth at best and completely dishonest at worst and stands as an attempt to convince people that "How" something works isn't important.


    EmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • EmeryPearsonEmeryPearson 97 Pts
    edited May 15
    "the Declaration of Independence is absolutely relevant when considering all things pertaining to the U.S. Constitution." 

    I didn't say it wasn't. I am stating is not the law of the land, and is therefore superseded by the Constitution.

    "the fundamental principle of the Constitution doesn't matter...it's only what's technically inside the Constitution that determines it's secular status"

    Yes, legally, this is the case. The Constitution was written to reflect our positive (government) law, not natural(Deistic/Religious) law.  The positive law and functions of the government outlined in the Constitution while under perfect conditions, should reflect natural law, however the founding fathers realized we do not live in a perfect world. 

    It would be an assumption to claim that this statement of natural law was derived from Christianity, say more so than Deism, or the principles laid out by the founding fathers concerning natural law:


    1. people have equal dignity before God,
    2. God grants people rights or powers, some of which are transferable (alienable) and others not transferable (inalienable or unalienable),
    3. government is erected primarily to protect people’s rights,
    4. government is a fiduciary enterprise, subject to rules of public trust, and
    5. the people may alter government when it does not serve their purposes.

    Natural law does not equate to Biblical law. Theism doesn't equate to Christianity. God doesn't equate to Yahweh.

    But I consider this irrelevant, as my point is that modifying the pledge to include 'under god' precludes a large group of American citizens from honestly reciting it. Which decreases it's value as a pledge. 

    http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2017/03/26/the-relationship-between-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited May 16
    @EmeryPearson

    Although in order for something to be secular it must not be connected in any way, shape or form with religious or spiritual matters...somehow you've concluded that the U.S. Constitution (The fundamental principles of which are rooted firmly in religious ideology and furthermore acknowledged by the U.S. Supreme Court as being so) is a Secular document.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree that the underlying principle and foundation of the Constitution being Religious somehow still allows for secular status. 

    "But I consider this irrelevant, as my point is that modifying the pledge to include 'under god' precludes a large group of American citizens from honestly reciting it. Which decreases it's value as a pledge". 

    You are absolutely correct.  Also take note that the phrase "Under God" does not mean "Some" God or "A" God, or "Your" God....but "God".  This means that every other Religion that does not subscribe to the Man in the Sky and his Son Jesus Christ is also excluded from honestly reciting the pledge. 

    You might also be shocked to know:


    1. When the Constitution was created, almost every state had a state religion and subsequent State Churches.  
    2. Historically, U.S. Politicians at all levels were required to be graduates of Christian orthodox universities in order to hold office.
    3. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust." - Our Nation's Motto
    4. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
    5. God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
    6. As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.
    7. Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
    8. The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.
    9. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
    10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
    11. Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
    12. Our national anthem mentions God.
    13. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
    14. The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.
    15. Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.
    16. Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.
    17. The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.


    Now some organizations have tried with great effort to remove and undo these things over time...most have met with failure while some have been somewhat successful.  Try as people might though...you can't make the non-secular aspects of our Country disappear...no matter how many people's feelings are hurt over it.

    We live in a Religious Country that's founded upon Religious ideology and we're regulated by laws that are firmly rooted in Religious principles...and nothing is going to change that.  No one is forced to participate in the experiment here...that said, atheists are welcome to stay and be disgruntled about not getting their way.  
    EmeryPearson
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • EmeryPearsonEmeryPearson 97 Pts
    edited May 24
    @Vaulk

    "Although in order for something to be secular it must not be connected in any way, shape or form with religious or spiritual matters..."

    This is incorrect, in order for something to be secular, it must merely seperate state from relgion. Which the Constitution guarantees. 
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/secularism
    "The principle of separation of the state from religious institutions."

    "somehow you've concluded that the U.S. Constitution (The fundamental principles of which are rooted firmly in religious ideology and furthermore acknowledged by the U.S. Supreme Court as being so) is a Secular document."

    This is a Straw man, as the Constitution demands separation of church and state. This is what makes it Secular. It could be wholly based off of biblical law, and still be secular if it demanded a separation of church and state.

    "I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree that the underlying principle and foundation of the Constitution being Religious somehow still allows for secular status.  "

    Yes, it seems so, I am unable to take your definition of what secularism is over definitions offered by dictionary sources. Anything which demands a separation of Church and State is actively practicing secularism, religious roots don't change that fact.

    "Now some organizations have tried with great effort to remove and undo these things over time...most have met with failure while some have been somewhat successful."

    I would say the vast majority have been successful.
    Separation of Church and State is a Constitutional issue, which has been affirmed by the supreme court multiple times.

    State relgion has been eliminated. 
    You can no longer demand religious tests for elected officials.
    Ten commandments outside of historical exceptions, are being removed from public court houses. 
    You are not required to invoke God in court.
    The founding fathers stated that the US was indeed, not a Christian nation, but a secular one.
    Not all presidents(Too include founding fathers) have sworn in on a Bible, nor are they required to.
    The Bible is banned as a textbook in school.

    "We live in a Religious Country that's founded upon Religious ideology and we're regulated by laws that are firmly rooted in Religious principles...and nothing is going to change that.  No one is forced to participate in the experiment here...that said, atheists are welcome to stay and be disgruntled about not getting their way.  "

    We live in a secular nation, as affirmed by the Constitution and Supreme Court. And as things are going, you are welcome to stay as well, so long as your willing to accept that Christianity isn't deserving of special treatment and will be stripped of such.

    But this is irrelevant, as we already agree on my original point. "You are absolutely correct"
  • VaulkVaulk 434 Pts
    edited May 26
    @EmeryPearson

    Well thought out.  I suppose we can agree to disagree however, since we both agree that our Nation is currently built so as to prevent Atheists and other practitioners of Religions other than Christianity from honestly pledging their allegiance to our Flag and what it represents...then I'm not sure how we still disagree about the Secular status of our current Country.

    It would seem than any Country that is truly Secular would follow suite and would not require you to acknowledge the existence and authority of God in order to honestly pledge your allegiance to it.  You've actually made the most convincing argument for the conclusion that our Constitution is not Secular because if it was...you wouldn't need to acknowledge God in any aspect in order to "Honestly" pledge your allegiance.


    Also, we can agree that the Principle of the separation of Church and State is secularism...but the existence of that separation does not necessitate a that our Constitution be a secular document.  If something is built upon a Religious principle...it cannot be secular...that however, does not exclude it from including secular rules.  "You can't legally be forced to recite "Under God" in the pledge (Secularism) but the pledge none-the-less includes the phrase "Under God" (Non secular).


    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


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