What do you think about Islam and Muslims?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Islam: Far From Perfect

• Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas
• Islam is the most dangerous religion on the planet - it is the most violent of religions
• Islam is incompatible with liberal democracy.
  
• Veiling women is extreme oppression
• Honor killings are senseless murders
• Islam is the only major world religion that explicitly calls for the death of apostates
  
• Islam is extremely resistant to reform
• Islam's treatment of minorities is terrible

Dee

Islam is a vile repressive belief system.

Muslims are by nature barbaric regressive and divisive people, how could they be otherwise considering the primitive belief system that's beaten into them.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Interesting response thus far. The biggest threat is escalating mutal reprisals.

I've been reading Mistakes were made but not by me and the book is a lot to unpack. I am trying to synthesis the new information with old on this thread. This is a lot of information, so please double check me and correct I probably made a few mistakes. Thank you for reading.

"The attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and instigated the multi-decade global war on terror."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

Regardless if you think it is Muslims, Islam, politics, or bad political actor, the major threat is escalating reprisals and revenge. Ultimately, you can't disentangle religion and politics as much as it would make events simpler and easier to understand. 

The nature of revenge according to Carol Tavris, Elliot Aronson is to strike back harder than you were originally hit. This can lead to vicious circle of violence. You can see this argument made in a different way in Sam Harris End of Faith. Similar to positive feedback cycles in climate change.

The idea is that Al-Qaeda justified the attack because of the crusaders massacre of Jerusalem. Who in turn justified their actions in Jerusalem in retaliation of the Moor invasion. Going back further in time you can probably find the Moors attacked in response to something the Roman Christians did going all the way back to the time of Jesus 0 AD.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors

Yet, killing 3,000 civilians in an unprovoked attack is never excusable. Going forward this lead to the invasion of Afghanistan and when Al-Queda escaped the disastrous and terrible invasion of Iraq. Furthermore, this empowered conservatives, let to the formation of the terrorist group known as Islamic State, and got Trump elected.

The consequences of the September 11th attack can not be underestimated and religion was at least some part of this. Trump getting elected let to huge increase in c02 making climate change worse. Again, with a positive feedback cycle droughts from climate change let to Islamic State recruiting more members and yet more terrorists attacks.

" Bill Nye said it is reasonable to conclude violent terrorism is in pert fueled by changing climate."

https://medium.com/@redOrbit/bill-nye-claims-climate-change-helped-fuel-paris-terrorist-attacks-by-brett-smith-685ccd2bad00

How do we end this vicious cycle? We finally got rid of Trump, but for how long? If tomorrow we get a repeat of history and 3,000 innocent people are killed in terrorist attack we can all but guarantee a red wave and Trump or Ron DeSantis be elected. Followed by more botched invasions of middle eastern countries. More co2 being pumped into the air, and more terrorists.

I predict if this event was to happen, it would be the slow end of the world. That so much co2 would be pumped into the air that we would reach tipping points that would be beyond human control. Therefore, I conclude that we have underestimated Islam.

Yet, I don't have any real solutions. As seen by an UFO cult in when prophecy fails when a group is presented by dis-confirming evidence some members leave and other double or even triple down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

 That means anything we do to try to reduce the number of Muslims, say by presenting atheistic dis-confirming evidence is likely to bizarrely produce more radicals while reducing the number of moderates. The same can be said of Trump supporters as Trump repeatedly lied both big and small. As predicted by cognitive dissonance theory Trump supporters dwindled but the remaining supporters became more hardcore fanatical supporters.

All I can think of is prebunk and debunk a whole lot and we are in for a very bumpy scary ride. Thank you all for your responses.

Barnardot

@Dreamer When you start hating people thats when all the trouble begins. So the Muslims hate the Christian countries like the USA because we ripped them off with all there oil for too long and our women behave and dress disrespectful and we have no discipline. And we hate the rag tops because they live too much in the past and treat there women like dogs and push homos off roofs. So who is right them or us.

What I'm saying is that if we under stand each other instead of saying were better than the other then we will have world peace.

Bogan

Islam is the most dangerous religion on this planet, it is an economic failure, and Muslims are the most hated people on the planet.      

 "According to statistics compiled by economic historian Angus Maddison and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, between 1985 and 1998, average per capita income declined 10% in real terms in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. By contrast, it rose 30% in Israel, 50% in Uraguay, 90% in Chile and more than doubled in Thailand, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and South Korea. "

 The insular nature Islam comes from its own teachings, and these teachings instruct Muslims to be hostile to non Muslims.     Mohammad instructed his followers to spread Islam by the sword.

"O you who believe! Take not as your Bitanah (supporters) those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed, we have made plain to you the ayat if you understand." [3:118]

Do not be the first to greet a Jew or a Christian (do not initiate the greeting), and if you meet one of them in the street, then push him to the narrowest part of the way.” ....
The prophet of Islam was a racist who knew the value of ethnic cleansing.

"You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land. (Arabia)

and again;

(Hadith Muslim 4366) "I will expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims."

 For while economic rationalism and liberated market forces have fomented dramatic changes around the world, (mostly for the better) two places they have achieved nothing is in the African and Arabic worlds. With a few mostly "liberal" Muslim countries as exceptions, (Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia and some Gulf States) most Muslim countries have done their best to keep international economic integration completely at bay.

 It is no surprise that those Muslim countries that are the most insular, despotic, mullah ridden, and repressive, are the most staunch opponents of free markets and the most enthusiastic supporters of the late and unlamented Osama bin Laden and his merry band of suicidal Jihadi's. Guess what else they have in common? None of these nations even belongs to the hated World Trade Organisation. which, with 142 members, is hardly an exclusive club. The Muslim world itself chooses to live in self imposed economic exile and is suffering terribly because of it.

 Islam is stuck in a time warp

 Upwards of a thousand years ago, Islam was far less objectionable and more civilized than Christianity; but whereas Christianity has, on the whole, gradually become infinitely more humane, Islam has tended to stand still, and has thus been left behind. This is partly because Mohammed (570-632) laid it down that, to avoid the sort of corruption that had beset Judaism and Christianity, his new religion must never accept any change of any kind. And to this day, the true Moslem continues to obey this injunction and resist anything new in social mores.

Much has been made by self flagellating spoiled brat westerners  views, that economic rationalism is a failure because there are so many people living in this world who struggle to survive on $1 or $2 dollars a day. Well, duh. And where do you think most of these people come from? It is the very same countries who's dimwitted leaders are constantly professing unrealistic economic views, and who have rejected global economic integration, which are the ones going belly up.

The extreme poverty that exists in Islamic countries, is a product of their own religious beliefs and almost every Muslim country is an economic basket case. The most interesting thing about Muslim countries, is tht unless they are swimming in an ocean of oil, the more Islamic they are, the more of a sheethole they are.   Muslim economies are growing, on average, only 1% a year. But Muslim populations are growing, on average, at a disasterous 4% a year. Muslim societies are great believers in breeding like flies and Muslim families are noted for having very large numbers of children. This factor alone is instrumental in their appalling levels of poverty, superstition, unemployment and ignorance.

 Mahommad himself bragged about using terror on Islam’s enemies, and the enemies of Islam were defined as “pagans”.

 Qur'an: 3.151     Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

 Qur'an 9:5    "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. "

Their own attitudes to family size and birth control has condemned almost an entire generation of young Muslims to be bereft of employment or a future in their own countries. These angry young men are simply becoming recruits for terrorist organisations who seek to blame everyone else but Islam for their own woes. Muslims covet the prosperity of the West and dream about our consumer goods and lifestyles. But they will not accept the liberal values and secular philosophies that have created that prosperity. All they can do is dream about gatecrashing a western country, or bob up and down on their prayer mats five times a day waiting for Allah to solve all their problems for them.

Financial institutions like commercial banks, stock exchanges and and investment houses hardly even exist in Muslim societies, and venture capital for small enterprenuers is unheard of. Even the concept of banks giving interest on deposits is against the teachings of the Prophet, who decreed that lending money and gaining interest was usury. According to statistics compiled by economic historian Angus Maddison and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, between 1985 and 1998, average per capita income declined 10% in real terms in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. By contrast, it rose 30% in Israel, 50% in Uraguay, 90% in Chile and more than doubled in Thailand, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and South Korea.

It is precisely those countries which have accepted free market philosophies that are doing so well. The economies of countries that abolished tariffs and opened themselves up to international trade in the 1970's and 1980's, grew on average six times faster than those who hid behind tariff walls.

The world's living standards have tripled since the 1950's, thanks largely to free trade promoted by the World Trade Organisation. There has also been a realisation by the countries that have prospered, that the blessings of wealth have gone hand in hand with political systems which most promote social and political freedom as well. The late seventies and early 80's saw many totalitarian regimes swept away by a rising tide of economic prosperity. Even those regimes which maintained absolute political control of their people have seen the benefit of moderating their previously rigid and totally unrealistic economic theories.

 Christianity has its faults and bad people, but look around this globe and see where 99.99% of all inventions originated. Look around this globe and see where 98/99% of manufacturing is. Look around this globe and see where a 100% of charities that cater to everyone, even pagans, in the world are.      Look around and see where the arts are - music, dance, paintings etc are. Then look again and see which countries are dictatorships, which countries are endemically corrupt, which countries kill and rape. Which countries are sordid messes? Then have a look at the top hospitals, universities etc - yes all in western Christian or nominally Christian nations.

 The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes many of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

One free market success story is China. Since China opened it's borders and moved towards free trade in the late 1970's, it's poverty stricken people who comprise one sixth of the world's population, have become six times as wealthy. In the 1990's, the number of Chinese living on less than a dollar a day dropped by 150 million. This was the greatest single reduction in poverty that the world has ever seen, and it was brought about solely by economic liberalism and free trade.

A pretty good indicator that economic liberalism and free trade is on the right track, is that it is opposed by the trendy left wing, flag burning feral caste, the ones who always manage to get everything wrong. You can still see these prehistoric relics singing the "Internationale", advocating for transgender “rights”, screaming their hatred of the US, and waving their little red flags, every time there is a WTO or G11 conference. Most of these brain deads would have a social intelligence rating somewhere around moron level, and can be counted upon to man the barricades for every left wing, anti western cause imaginable.      It is somewhat difficult to argue against spectacular success and promote the causes of dismal failure, but these fruitcakes are doing their best.

These jerks are supported by some intellectually challenged, pro terrorist, western hating drop kicks from backward Middle Eastern societies, who our immigration policies have allowed to infest our country. Most of these cretins will wax long and lyrical on the failings of western economics, yet they hail from countries where the President for Life could not run a chook raffle at the local school fete.       The only thing that these Muslim countries can export to the west is a product that we in the west does not want and can do without. Millions of poverty stricken Muslims, too many of whom are ungrateful, have chips on their shoulders, and attitude problems.

 Mahommad was not a supporter of Women’s Lib, and he even instructed that Muslim women have no right to refuse sex to their husbands.     It is not known what Germaine Greer thinks of that one.

"When a man calls to his wife to satisfy his desire, she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." (Tirmidhi)

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them..." (4:34) (translator J.M. Rodwell)

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient". (4:34) (translator Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

 "Men have authority because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them..." (4:34) (translator M.M. Khatib)

Brought up since birth to believe that anything that goes wrong is never their fault, their capacity for critical analysis, introspection, and self criticism is only vestigial. They are the "blame the US for everything" brigade, to whom the power, success and majesty of the US serves as a glaring, constant and unwelcome reminder of the dismal failure of their own cultures backward thinking ideology.

But rather than ruefully admit that their own cultural values and financial theories are a joke, they have the unmitigated effrontery to constantly find fault in the financial systems of the very western societies they have fled to. I suppose that people who are not too bright and who's cherished value systems are complete failures, will always be resentful towards people who are intelligent, competent, and successful. But it does little to enhance their own standing in western societies, when these economic refugees try to hide their obvious lack of mental acuity by being offensive to their generous hosts.

The high levels of welfare dependency, violent criminal behaviour, and compensationitus, exhibited by too many of these Muslim people is a measure of their contempt for the very western societies which have given them succour. For whatever wonderful blessings that Islam has bestowed upon it's adherents, the gifts of competency, tolerance and gratitude are not the most prominent.

What an unholy recipe: First we build a vulnerable underclass of unassimilated people with a religion of rejection. Then we let loose on them imported radicals preaching a hatred of our society; teachers who instruct them in the shame of our history; and multiculturalists who pay them to keep their distance and retain their much nicer ways.

In the entire Arabic world, the only real economic success stories have been the burgeoning profits and high volume trading of the gun shops in Beirut and the slave markets in the Sudan. Certainly the tourism industry in the Islamic world is hardly booming, unless you count the booming that killed and wounded hundreds of innocent western tourists at Kuta Beach.

For despite being the Middle East being the custodians to the world's most revered archaeological treasures, persistent bomb, grenade and machine gun attacks by western hating Islamic nut cases has seen even tourism drop to zero.      The fabulous Babiyan Buddhas could have attracted planeloads of wealthy Buddhist pilgrims to Afghanistan, but the Taliban half wits blew the bloody things up. Real smart eh? Such stupidity towards the very resources upon which their very livelihood may depend, is indicative of a mindset impervious to reasoned thought. Possibly, these inbred attitudes could be the result of congenital birth defects caused by breeding with cousins and uncles for generations.   Although, those westerners who believe in anthropogenic climate change think the same way. about industry and energy production.     

The attitudes of those who oppose free markets and democracy, hate the US, and despise the western world, are a measure of a minds not overly burdened with intelligence.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Barnardot

YOUR DUMBFOUNDED QUOTE: "What I'm saying is that if we under stand each other instead of saying were better than the other then we will have world peace."

NOT!  The diaper headed desert sweaty Muslims have to follow their pathetic Qur'an that was written by the pedophile Muhammed in a cave outside of Medina.  Where said Qur'an states with specificity the following towards the Jews and Christians, and other unbelievers to the Satanic faith of Islam:

1. ”O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Qur’an 5:51)  

2. Yusuf Ali: "Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued." (Qur'an 9:29)

3.  The Jews say: "Ezra ('Uzayr) is Allah's son," and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah." These are merely verbal assertions in imitation of the sayings of those unbelievers who preceded them. May Allah ruin them.(Qur’an 9:30) 

4.  "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." (Qur’an 8:12)  This passage relates to Jews and Christians, GET IT?

5. Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.” (Qur’an 2:65-66).

.

Bogan

@21CenturyIconoclast

Barnadot is absolutely right, 21stwhatever.      All the world needs to do to attain everlasting peace, if for everybody to join hands and sing "Kumbaya."   

MayCaesar

What totalitarian ideologies do to human bodies is but a whisper relative to what they do to human minds. Approximately 20,000 people die yearly to Islamic terrorist attacks; almost 2 billion people daily are plagued by repressive thoughts induced by Islamic teachings that penetrate every area of their lives and cause them to see themselves as insects in servitude to some fantastic cause. A few dozen people in the US yearly become victims of violent anti-Muslim crimes; tens of millions think corrupted thoughts induced by misguided desire to be "nice" to Muslims and other minorities and are unable to perceive reality for what it is, having dire repercussions on virtually everything they do and everyone they interact with.

It is curious how in the modern world sophisticated artificial intelligence coexists with this:



And how tens of millions of "progressive" people do not see it as anachronic.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;All the world needs to do to attain everlasting peace, if for everybody to join hands and sing "Kumbaya."   

Well sure there’s got to be some girlie boys out there who sing those songs and drink warm milk a round the campfire but there dreamers not doers. Doers get out there and tackle world peace head on. Like for example the doers could go into the rough area of town out side the pubs and then let down the tyres of all the Holdin pickups with the coat hangers in the antenna holes. So when the owners drive a way they can’t figure out that there grinding down there alloys down because they only have half a brain. Then the magnesium burns to blazers and the pick up explodes then hay dingo no more bogans.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: So far I am getting a highly negative response towards Muslims and Islam. This is interesting, I would like to hear from more users.

I still haven't heard from Jack Just_sayin, nor ZeusAres42 . In other communities Muslims would defend Islam and even attempt to convert. 

Also, in an extreme opposite situation liberals would attempt to push off the stage anyone who deviated even a little from woke or maximum political correctness. Note, this isn't hate speech which I am sure they would deem a lot of the comments here. More like forgetting to put the s Indigenous peoples or deviating from oxfam's inclusive language guide.

I have to admit I do enjoy the freedom of not worrying about being dog piled by an angry mob over tiny mistakes. What I also see is a lack of solutions from other users. Okay, you view Islam as making the world a worse place, but what to do about it?

Continuing to explore the topic, I think it is easy to get really mad after a terrorist attack. Come up with a cherry picked long list of every crime someone who might be Muslim committed. Along with any violent passage that might be in an Islam religious text.

This might be useful to break the bubble of multicultural, tolerance, and freedom of religion are always good. I think a lot of people believed in tolerance and multiculturalism before the September 11th attacks. Afterwards, was the first time that many liberals really questioned if they were incorrect, and maybe those they saw as bigots were right all along.

My solution is that we Westerns have to admit our own mistakes first. When I was more naive I used to think I could just use reason and everyone would become atheists. For a whimsical example just look at the below myth that has been thoroughly debunked and yet people still believe it. Islam is not going away for a long time.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pop-rocks-soda/

We can hardly expect Muslims to give up their beliefs when we got Mormons running around especially the white supremacist kind.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/fundamentalist-church-jesus-christ-latter-day-saints

We have to admit it was wrong to torture captives many of which were innocent with methods including rectal feeding. The first step in dismantling the most violent and radical parts of Islam is to admit our own mistakes in order to build trust, de-escalation.

https://www.factcheck.org/2014/12/cheneys-tortured-facts/

just_sayin

@Dreamer
I still haven't heard from Jack Just_sayin, nor ZeusAres42 . In other communities Muslims would defend Islam and even attempt to convert. 

I am uncomfortable with posts that make sweeping claims about all adherents of a faith, any faith, including Islam.  I admit many Muslims have engaged in extremist behavior.  I'm not a theologian and don't know if these extremist acts are in keeping with the Islamic faith or not.  If it is not a feature of the Islamic faith, I concede that many Muslims think it is.  I will say that that I don't mind people  sharing their faith, but I oppose forced conversions and violence against anyone because of their faith or lack thereof.  I believe violence against innocent people in the name of religion is just as immoral as the actions of some BLM rioters who burned and destroyed thousands of buildings, killed 25 people, and did billions of dollars in damages in the summer of 2020.  

Bogan

Just sayin quote.     I am uncomfortable with posts that make sweeping claims about all adherents of a faith, any faith, including Islam. 

Well, don’t be.     Islam is a belief system, just like Nazism, Communism, and every other religion, including the Japanese Aum, and the Indian Thugees.       There is nothing wrong with judging individuals by their group associations, provided that you can accept that not everyone in a group accepts all of the values and attitudes which define membership of that that group.   Individuals can be exceptions.    But all self declared members of a group  have to accept most of the values, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviours of their chosen group, or they would not be considered part of that group.          Everybody judges individuals by their group associations.   .   You only think it is wrong because in school, your goofy liberal teacher told you it was reprehensible to do so, and you accepted it without thinking about it.   You are not a kid any more.   You are an adult.   Think about it. 

Just sayin quote       I admit many Muslims have engaged in extremist behaviour.

They sure have, and by doing so, they were following the direct instructions of their God and his prophet.   Muslims do not consider terrorism towards non Muslims as "extremist behaviour."    They see it as a religious duty which will get them heavenly rewards.   They must believe in what Mohammad instructs, or they would not be considered Muslims by other Muslims.      Saying that only "extremist" Muslims believe in terrorism towards non Muslims, is like saying that only “extremist” Catholics believe that Jesus is the son of God, born of the virgin Mary, and he died on the cross, and was resurrected.       

Just sayin quote     I'm not a theologian and don't know if these extremist acts are in keeping with the Islamic faith or not.

Then start doing some research and find out.     I will even help you get started.    Now, if Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that all Jews should be exterminated, I don’t think that you would have too much trouble figuring out that Nazism is detrimental to Jews?     Now, use that simple logic to examine the Koran and the Suras, and see if Islam is murderously hostile to you, your family, and your people.  

 

How about Mohammad endorsing terrorism?  

Koran: 3.151     Soon shall we cast TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Koran 8:12     Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

As narrated by Narrated Abu Huraira: in Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:     Mahammad quote  " I have been made victorious with TERROR"

 How about Mohammad instructing his followers to be hostile to non Muslims?  

Koran 4:144     Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?  

Koran 5:51     Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

Koran 5:57    Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...

 

Mohammad was a racist.

Koran 70:39      We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.

Mohammad instructs his followers to make war on any non Muslims “near to you”, and if they die doing so, they will go straight to heaven.  

Koran 9:73    Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.Koran 9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

 Koran 9:5     "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Look, just sayin.    I could go on, and on, and on, submitting texts from the Koran and the Suras that clearly display the hostility which Islam displays for non Muslims, as instructed by their prophet.    Now, if Adolph Hitler had said these things about non Aryans, you would have no trouble figuring out that Nazis are a clear and present danger to you and your family.     But I can only presume that some goofy liberal teacher has conditioned you to think that all religions are equal, and that goofy notion has been reinforced by your peer group, until you thought that "intelligent" people think that way.       Religions and belief systems are not equal.    Anymore than democracy is equal to totalitarianism.       

You could claim that not all Nazis believe that non Aryans are Untermensch, so individual Nazis should not be judged by their cultural affiliation’s.     And to a certain extent, you are right.     But the fact remains that if you are a non Aryan, especially a Jew, then you would be a fool to use that principle to claim that most Nazis were just nice guys and no threat to you.   

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Part three, slowing Jihadists.

To recap part one and two were about breaking blind faith in religion and multiculturalism followed by admitting that the United States has made terrible mistakes and we need to admit these mistakes including torturing of innocents in order to deescalate.

I think a lot of people wouldn't care what Muslims do far away in a vastly different country if it were not for Jihadists. After-all, western nations have our own problems like Trump and Brit exit. For the most extreme and violent, as much as I hate to admit we do need to use at least some violence. Yet, most of this fighting is inter-Islam, moderate Muslims fighting extreme Muslims. Don't go all completely pacifist.

Limit online hate, the center for countering digital hate is a good resource for countering digital hate.

https://counterhate.com/research/state-hate/

https://counterhate.com/blog/new-report-state-hate/

Work with moderate Muslims and make friends. I think resisting the tribalism urge might be the most difficult. Yet, if I understand correctly Jihadists thrive on xenophobia.

Finally, learn more without accidentally indoctrinating yourself.  I've learned from posting this is I really don't know enough on the subject. What works and doesn't work against online hate. The conditions that violent Jihadists thrive in versus conditions that are resilient. I haven't even read the full Koran. If I understand correctly, that the Koran must be read in Arabic, anything else is a vague translation.

Which then leads to the question what to learn first? Is it really worth it to read the entire  Koran if your words will simply be dismissed because you read a non-Arabic translation. Furthermore, learning Arabic just so you can read the Koran in Arabic seems like an awfully big time commitment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

Interestingly enough religion tends not only to hybridize with other religions but with politics and local myths. I've heard people tend to believe local myths thinking they are in the Koran when they are not. To make matters more confusing there are holy books called the Hadith that are not part of the Koran. Understanding how much weight is put on these can be confusing.

To give an example, Muslims living in India tend to be very different than those living in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Another way to learn more about Muslims is to learn more about humans in general. Understand just as non-Muslims are prone to cognitive biases so are Muslims. Simply pre-bunking climate change and anti-vaxxer myths can help get critical thinking started.

I guess the question is what to learn next?

Bogan

@Dreamer ;   Quote      .......moderate Muslims fighting extreme Muslims.
  
Please define what a "moderate Muslim" is?        

Dreamer

Argument Topic: A moderate Muslim would be a person beliefs in the Islamic God, but only attends religious sevices a few times a year.

@Bogan

A non-Jihadist the absence of extremism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Muslim

Bogan

@Dreamer ;   quote    A non-Jihadist the absence of extremism.

I remember the civilised world in 2003 reacting in horror to the sentence of death, by stoning, imposed by a Nigerian court on Amina Lawal, for giving birth to a child out of wedlock.       If ever there was an opportunity for these mythical “moderate” Muslims you claim exist to show where they stood on this barbarous aspect of Sharia Law, then that was it.    One would have expected hundreds of millions of “moderate” Muslims to condemn the judgement as barbaric and cruel, and not worthy of Islam.    What did we hear from these mythical “moderate” Muslims?    A deafening silence.

 Muslims believe in Sharia Law because it is written in the Koran, and they believe that the Koran is the literal word of God.    That is why they will never criticise it.         Since when did “moderate” Muslims stop believing in Sharia Law?     And when did they start believing in the separation of Church and state?    When did they stop believing that apostates, homosexuals, or critics of Islam should be murdered?     Why are the majority of Islamic societies so backward and oppressive, if the majority of Moslems are "moderate". 

 If “moderate Muslims” existed in Britain, one would have thought that they would have laughed their heads off when the Iranian mullah Khomeini imposed a death sentence fatwa for apostacy, on a British citizen, Salman Rushdie.   They did not.  Instead, hordes of so called “moderate Muslims” openly declared that they hoped that they would have the honour of killing Rushdie themselves.     This included the former  pop star Cat Stevens,  who have converted to Islam, and who’s songs were loved because they preached peace, love, and harmony.    

  If there are any "moderate Muslims" then they had better publicly renounce the concept of Jihad.     But what have we got from “moderate Muslims” in Australia?     After the three terrorist Paris attacks which killed a total of 129 people, the "moderate" Mufti of Australia, and the "moderate" Imam's Council of Australia, issued a press release saying that they "mourned the loss of innocent lives."

 They then went on to explain what the causes of terrorism were.

 "It is imperative that all causative factors such as racism, Islamophobia, curtailing religious freedoms through securitisation, duplicitous foreign policies and military intervention must be comprehensively addressed."

 Every "causative factor of terrorism" the "moderate" Muslims listed was the west victimising Muslims.      There was no condemnation of ISIS which proudly claimed responsibility for the Paris attacks.   Nor did they condemn the "hate preachers", or the verses in the Koran instructing Muslims to commit violence and terrorism to spread Islam. Even Australia's Muslim sucking former Prime Minister, Peter Turnbull. found the cojones to issue a statement expressing disappointment at the Mufti and the Imam's Council's press release.      Having views similar to your own, Turnbull was further surprised as an official dinner when the Head of the “moderate” Islamic council in Australia told Turnbull that he should decree a law to have homosexuals executed. 

 When the old “moderate” Mufti of Australia, sheik-Al -Hilali,  got removed for saying so many immoderate things, like saying that Australian girls deserved to get raped, and that Jews were "dogs", the influential Muslims in Australia decided to replace him with somebody less inflammatory.   

 The new “moderate” Mufti can not speak English after nearly twenty years living in Australia.   He has defended Hizb-ut-Tahrir who's public comments in the Australian media clearly displays that they are certainly no "moderates."    The Mufti refused to admit that the murder of police accountant victor Chang in Parramatta was terrorism, and he refused to attend a dinner hosted by the Australian Federal Police which was attempting to display goodwill towards Muslims.    Instead, he condemned the AFP for picking on Muslims.

 Islam is the most aggressive social force and ideology in the world today. Its adherents are a constant menace to our social structure and individual safety.     The idea of the "moderate Muslim" is a dream invented by extreme humanitarians who don’t want to believe that other people can have beliefs which are dangerous to their health and safety.    Yet we hear this rubbish about “moderate Muslims"” continually in the context of whatever latest outrage is perpetrated in Islam’s name.

The history of Islamic terrorism shows that the perpetrators came from every sphere of life; some were doctors, teachers, engineers, many university educated and seemingly well adjusted people who had supposedly assimilated with the values of Western society.       If even the 'best' and most educated of Islam can turn and commit atrocities, then how can you say there are any moderate Muslims, when Muslims who by their social standing should be considered" moderate",  have committed atrocities in the past?    Is a moderate Muslim simply a Muslim who has not yet terrorised?      Is it fair to brand every Muslim with the potential to be a terrorist? If not, why not?     And how do you distinguish those who will from those who won't?      It is an impossible task; and for what?    What does Islam bring to the West?    What does it contribute? The only argument I hear is that the West is a pluralistic society and that tolerating Islam is a part of that. But that argument doesn't answer the question, because that is describing an attribute of the West which Islam is usurping in its declared quest to get rid of that tolerance and replace it with Sharia.

In fact there is nothing Islam contributes to Western society.    It is a belligerent threat and it should be treated as such, and those who argue otherwise should be condemned as the wooly headed ”useful fo-ols” that they are.

 On the subject of 'moderate' Muslims, you might be interested in this: in August 2007, the Turkish PM, Recept Erdogan, took umbrage at the term 'moderate Muslim', saying that such a description of Muslims is "very ugly"; and, "it is offensive and an insult to our religion".   He finished by saying, "There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam, and that's that."

MayCaesar

Jihadists I actually have less of a problem with: their numbers are slow, people everywhere in the world (including in Islamic countries themselves) fight against them, and they have zero chance of becoming mainstream.


No, the real problem is this:



And this:



I am much less afraid of this guy



than I am of this guy



The former may kill a few thousand people. The latter will ruin lives of tens of millions of people directly, and negatively affect lives of billions of people indirectly.

I will also add that condemning Islamic extremists while giving pass to "moderate" Muslims is much like condemning Nazi extremists while giving pass to "moderate" Nazis. After all, most Nazis were not murderous psychopaths, and there were even some great folks who happened to be members of the National-Socialist party (such as Schindler) - so how can we say that being a Nazi is a bad thing, right?
It seems to me that if taking a particular ideology to its extreme leads to rivers of blood, then that ideology sucks. Imagine taking a decent ideology to its extreme, say, stoicism - what would a "stoic extremist" be like? Probably someone like Diogenes of Sinope, a person with very few material or emotional attachments, with a nearly flawless control over his body and mind, constantly questioning everything and everyone, most of all himself. It would not be someone blowing himself up in the name of Marcus Aurelius.

A good ideology leads to better outcomes when taken to its logical end, while a bad ideology leads to worse outcomes.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Thank you for your response.

@just_sayin

I will now begin to address the other commenters' posts. I just wanted to get my stance out there. 

"I am uncomfortable with posts that make sweeping claims about all adherents of a faith, any faith, including Islam." just_sayin

I agree, that you have a point. Personally, I am torn between Muslims are diverse people and can't we all get along. Versus logic and evidence point towards there is no Islamic God and the desire for others to be on the same page as me.

Do you have a source for Black Lives Matter killing 25 people?

 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Buddists can be violent.

@MayCaesar ;

"Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?"

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22356306

Following your logic we should get rid of Buddhism too. Yet, I wouldn't compare Muslims to nazis as you have. Consider Godwin's law. If the definition of nazi is too broad the word losing its meaning. Personally, halal slaughter bothers me a lot. Yet, even this mild criticism has already gotten me branded as an islamphobic bigot. I can't seem to shake the label no matter what.

Barnardot

@Dreamer ;Versus logic and evidence point towards there is no Islamic God 

Your got to see the realty that there is not just a Christian God or a rag head God or a yid God. Its one God and we call it the trinity of God which means that the one God is the same God. Its just that Christians pray through Jesus Christ and the rags pray through Mohammad and the yids just simply mainline it and deal direct with God which is why they get there reputation for being cheep skates and cutting out the middle man I reckon . So all your doing in the end is just being biased when you should really look at the hole picture and see that we are all worshipping the same God in the end any way.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;In fact there is nothing Islam contributes to Western society. 

Well your right there because what Western society has done is that they have taken Christianity and molded it to fit all there capitalist ways. The trouble with the rag heads is that they are purists and haven't touched there faith at all. When you look at Christianity it was proberly even worse hundreds of years ago when women were drowned to see if they were witches and if they didn't drown then that ment that they are witches and they were burned to death so go figure. So may be the rags will adapt there religion to modern ways and it might turn out to be better than chistianity in the end.

In the end any way its like hoses for coarses because the Muslim women wear there burkas because it stops the men from thinking about there bodies but in realty I bet it drives them nuts thinking about whats under neath all the time. Just saying.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Following your logic we should get rid of Buddhism too. Yet, I wouldn't compare Muslims to nazis as you have. Consider Godwin's law. If the definition of nazi is too broad the word losing its meaning. Personally, halal slaughter bothers me a lot. Yet, even this mild criticism has already gotten me branded as an islamphobic bigot. I can't seem to shake the label no matter what.

Absolutely: Buddhism should go, it is a deeply irrational ideology. As far as irrational ideologies go, it is among the more benevolent ones - but it is also highly impractical and, again, irrational, which is a problem in itself.

"Nazi" is a shortcut for "National Socialist", a very well defined term. Not every National Socialist is a murderous psychopath; there are/were "moderate" National Socialists. Would you say that you have no issue with them whatsoever?

You also seem to give too much importance to what random people say. So what if someone brands you an "Islamophobic bigot"? Are you one? If not, then they are mistaken and you can safely ignore their words. And if you suspect that you are, then perhaps you have not done enough thinking on the subject to formulate strong opinions and express them.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I really don't know if I am islamphobic or not. The problem is each community both online and offline is so different.

@MayCaesar

Edit: I may have strayed into hate speech territory, again, the lines between free and hate speech are often blurred.

https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-does-not-fall-within-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749

https://www.newsweek.com/calling-prophet-muhammad-pedophile-not-protected-free-speech-court-rules-1189031

Hmmm, I don't know I am in inner conflict.

Bogan

Dpn't debate, Dreamer. just post links.    Why are you on a debate site if you have no intention of debating?   

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Links add crediblity to arguments. You get to see the source in its original context and author.

@Bogan

Giving sources gives room for the people you are debating to attack your sources and their authors as opposed to only addressing your argument. Finally, listing sources helps keep me honest. I forget facts and misinformation is often obsolete information.

As example obsolete is climate change and belief in free market used to be the factor and inversely related. The higher the belief in free markets the lower belief in climate change. Now it is conservatism in lieu of free market.

Okay, I think my inner turmoil involving Islam is over. I am going to stick up for Islam. Besides it won't be much of a debate if everyone agrees.

Islamophobia and Trump being elected is the main threat. Islamophobia helped get Trump elected which lead to high increase in C02 which could lead to tipping points that are beyond human control. Climate change is an urgent problem. We have to look at the consequences of our actions. 

https://www.salon.com/2021/06/05/how-the-new-atheists-merged-with-the-far-right-a-story-of-intellectual-grift-and-abject-surrender/

Even if we agree that the world would be better of without religion, there are plenty of other problems out there. Anti-vaxxers, nuclear proliferation, rampant spread of disinformation, hate, and conspiracy theories that big tech profits from. Perhaps the worst part about anti-Islam hate it is a distraction and a scapegoat from the very real problems the Christian western world has.

The ECHR  ruled that insulting Islam is not free speech. This sealed the deal for me. Not only is hate against Islam immoral it is illegal.

We need to building bridges after Trump divided the nation. Reach out and make friends with Muslims. Most anti-Islam hate is thinly veiled racist xenophobia that benefits populist leaders like Trump, the conservative Bernie Sanders with his vile xenophobic protectionism, and the ones behind Brexit.

The popular trend along liberals is Apatheism. Live and let live. Can't we all just get along? If you insist on atheism, there are nicer ways to do this. That are probably more effective and less inflammatory. Take Anthony Magnabosco approach.

https://counterhate.com/research/anti-muslim-hate/

"o False claims that Muslims are inherently violent
o Conspiracies about a Muslim plan to “Islamize” Western countries
o Depictions of Muslims as deceptive and untrustworthy
o Racist caricatures depicting Muslims as inhuman
o Sectarian Hindu nationalist hate narratives against Muslims"

Just look at the anti-Muslim hate on ccdh linked above. 

"The Christchurch Call On 15 March 2019, a single gunman entered two Mosques in Christchurch, New
Zealand during Friday Prayer and perpetrated a terrorist attack that killed 51 people and injured 50. Many more suffered from mental health impact including post- traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), including the families of victims and first responders.6 This attack has become known as the “Christchurch shooting” or the Chirstchurch
Mosques terrorist attack. This offline attack had strong links to online hate and extremism. "

In the end it all comes down to who benefits from all this disinformation, hate, racism, and xenophobia? Trump and big fossil fuel does. So by all means spread hate if you want Trump to in 2024, to help the multi-million dollar Islamophobia industry, tax cuts for the very rich and big corporations, and the planet to cook.

If you want to make the world a better place don't spread hate and if you have the time prebunk some these vile conspiracy theories.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Here's a video by Rebecca Watson criticizing Iran that is not hateful in my opinion.

I think there is some confusion with what a person can or cannot do in regards to hate speech. If you want criticism without hate there is ccdh's state hate and Watson's video on Iran theocracy versus woman. Do you see the difference between the explicit hate in the post above from the ccdh?

https://counterhate.com/research/state-hate/

Bogan

"Hate speech" is speech that lefties like Dreamer hate to listen too.  

Bogan

@Dreamer ;     Dreamer quote      Giving sources gives room for the people you are debating to attack your sources and their authors as opposed to only addressing your argument. 

 What is wrong with that logic, is that you are not debating anybody by just posting links.    This is a debate site, not a link exchange site.      If you have no wish to debate, what are you doing here?

 

Dreamer quote      Finally, listing sources helps keep me honest. I forget facts and misinformation is often obsolete information.

 That sure looks to me like “I can’t debate for nuts, so cutting and pasting links will have to do, as it is all I can manage.”     

 

Dreamer quote    As example obsolete is climate change and belief in free market used to be the factor and inversely related. The higher the belief in free markets the lower belief in climate change. Now it is conservatism in lieu of free market.

 Got that right.     Lefties believe in climate change and state control of the means of production and distribution.     46 countries so far have tried a controlled economy and 46 have failed miserably.    It is just so odd that people like yourself are unable to grasp basic history and economics?     If you don’t like free market economies, could you please go and live in some socialist paradise and glue yourself to a highway there?    

 

Dreamer quote    Okay, I think my inner turmoil involving Islam is over. I am going to stick up for Islam. Besides it won't be much of a debate if everyone agrees.

 So, you oppose free market economies, even though you prefer to live in one?     You oppose anthropogenic global warming?     And you support Islam?     You sure are a crazy mixed up kid.      

 

Dreamer quote  Islamophobia and Trump being elected is the main threat

 A “phobia” is an irrational fear.     There is nothing irrational about being fearful of Islam.     If Adolph Hitler had written in Mein Kampf “Slay the non Aryans wherever you find them”, I presume that you would have been smart enough to figure out that Hitler was dangerous?     But Muslims get a free pass.    Your logic seems to be, that far seeing liberals like yourself always support the minority against the majority.  Especially if the majority are white.    Not smart.   

 

Dreamer quote     . Islamophobia helped get Trump elected which lead to high increase in C02 which could lead to tipping points that are beyond human control. Climate change is an urgent problem. We have to look at the consequences of our actions. 

 Just from memory, I think it was in 1978 that climate scientists stopped claiming that the earth was going to freeze, and instead told us that the earth was going to warm too much.     So, for 44 years I have been waiting for the world to end, and I am still waiting.    In another 44 years, when the sky hasn’t fallen, maybe you will realise that you have been had?   

    

 Dreamer quote      Even if we agree that the world would be better of without religion, there are plenty of other problems out there. Anti-vaxxers, nuclear proliferation, rampant spread of disinformation, hate, and conspiracy theories that big tech profits from. Perhaps the worst part about anti-Islam hate it is a distraction and a scapegoat from the very real problems the Christian western world has.

 If the Christian west is so bad, why does every non white want to barge into our societies?     Please tell me what scientific advance or consumer product the South Americans, Muslims, Chinese, or Indians have invented?  

 

Dreamer quote  The ECHR  ruled that insulting Islam is not free speech. This sealed the deal for me. Not only is hate against Islam immoral it is illegal.

 The foundation stone of democracy is free speech.      The ghosts of Thomas Paine and Voltaire are looking askance at you.     Some “liberal” you are.   However, while I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it. 

I don’t think I will bother examining the rest of your rant.     You are obviously working yourself up into a lather making declarations unsupported by arguments. 

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Edit: I may have strayed into hate speech territory, again, the lines between free and hate speech are often blurred.

https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-does-not-fall-within-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749

https://www.newsweek.com/calling-prophet-muhammad-pedophile-not-protected-free-speech-court-rules-1189031

Hmmm, I don't know I am in inner conflict.

Are there such lines? Free speech means freedom to express your opinion; if said opinion is hateful, it is still an opinion. For that matter, while I view the emotion of hatred as counter-productive in all cases other than ones requiring immediate and decisive action, it does not seem to me that terrible to hate the cruel things people do to each other. Hating pedophilia in Islamic countries is far less of an issue, than being afraid to speak your mind due to the possibility of offending someone who pretends that said problem does not exist.

I am not sure why you are so conflicted. Are you conflicted when it comes to condemning crimes of the Nazi regime? Are you also worried that you will accidentally offend a German who happened to not share Hitler's ideological views? Or do you feel comfortable saying, "Nazis are evil"? Where does the difference come from? Why is it okay to condemn Hitler's anti-semitic views, but not okay to condemn Muhammad's pedophilic tendencies?

Dee

@Dreamer

What you're actually doing is mounting a defence for a vile belief system yet you talk about morality which seems very strange indeed.

Every day under Islam women are denied equal rights to men in the majority of Islamic countries ,Islam is the excuse used by bullies to brutalise, demonise and dominate women who are mostly second class citizens under Islamic law.

Remember female genital mutilation is still a thing, arranged marriages , child brides, death or jail for homosexuality,  apostasy,blasphemy    drinking alchohol etc  etc.

Why would you defend such?

To call one an Islamphobe is a term used again to shut down valid criticism.of this vile belief system which is divisive and regressive , refusing to condemn it is an act of over the top PC cowardice.

Remember the chaos these religious bullies carried out worldwide when a cartoon of the prophet was circulated?

That how relgious bullies win they shut down valid criticisms by acts of thuggery, what's worse is when we had people like the id-otic George Bush calling Islam the religion of peace after an act of terrorism on US soil , all in an effort to placate religious thugs.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Major false analogy. White supremacists and nationalists are some of the groups behind anti-Muslim hate.

@MayCaesar

You might as well say why is it okay to hate the 3rd Reich but not okay to hate Jews. A better example would be somebody who says that all Germans are evil because of the actions of Hitler. This would be unfair, since some Germans resisted, furthermore some Jews are German.

Have you heard of the Rohingya genocide? Do you understand why attacking with online hate against Muslims is immoral? We need equity for marginalized communities.

For Muhammad, first it is not 100% clear if he is what you say. As with any holy book there is multiple interpretations. Second, to judge an entire religion which has been minoritized in many communities is unfair.  Third, you have to take the context of history. This may have been very common in Christian Europe too. Fourth, Muslims understand that pedophile is immoral and reject.

Just look at Jesus, the entire scapegoating on the cross was immoral and plagiarized other religions who used literal goats. Or the incest in the Bible. What age was the Virgin Mary?  If you want to know more of how I came to this conclusion you could read the links I posted.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Dreamer said:

You might as well say why is it okay to hate the 3rd Reich but not okay to hate Jews. A better example would be somebody who says that all Germans are evil because of the actions of Hitler. This would be unfair, since some Germans resisted, furthermore some Jews are German.

Nobody is saying anything of this kind about Muslims though, so your analogy is completely irrelevant.

Dreamer said:

Have you heard of the Rohingya genocide? Do you understand why attacking with online hate against Muslims is immoral? We need equity for marginalized communities.

Have I "heard" of the Rohingya genocide? Buddy, that region is almost my specialty. That genocide was a product of centuries-long ethnic tensions and has nothing to do with "online hate" against Muslims: most people involved in that conflict had no access to the Internet. Many did not have electricity even.
And did you mean to imply that Muslims are a "marginalized community"? Islam is the second most popular religion in the world, counting ~1.7 billion people, or 20% of the global population. There are countless countries in which Islam is the state religion and ideology. There are no other religions in the world (including Christianity) that enjoy this level of global acceptance and integration into lives of common people.

Dreamer said:

For Muhammad, first it is not 100% clear if he is what you say. As with any holy book there is multiple interpretations. Second, to judge an entire religion which has been minoritized in many communities is unfair.  Third, you have to take the context of history. This may have been very common in Christian Europe too. Fourth, Muslims understand that pedophile is immoral and reject.

First, when you read that Muhammad had sexual intercourse with little girls, there are not many interpretations to be had here. Second, fairness of judgement depends only on its intrinsic merit and not on the status of the entity the judgement is applied to. Third I absolutely take the context of history - and the context is such that European Christians have moved on from their barbaric ways centuries ago, while Middle-Eastern Muslims have not.

Dreamer said:

Just look at Jesus, the entire scapegoating on the cross was immoral and plagiarized other religions who used literal goats. Or the incest in the Bible. What age was the Virgin Mary?  If you want to know more of how I came to this conclusion you could read the links I posted.

I am not promoting Christianity now, am I? As I said earlier, I would like to see all religions lose their footholds in the world. However, religions are not equal. Ask yourself where you would feel safer: in a rural Christian area in the US, or in a rural Muslim area in Iran? "All religions are bad" is a very superficial statement, and different religions as practiced today have different degrees of badness. I do not have to fear much from a bunch of Shinto folks, or a bunch of Christian folks, or a bunch of Chinese-folklore folks... There is only one religion in the world a bunch of followers of which frequently presents real danger, and that religion is called Islam. Sorry if this fact makes you uncomfortable, but a fact is a fact.

Bogan

Islam is an evil religion which should be openly discriminated against in the entire western world, for the purpose of (hopefully) eradicating it completely.

 Islam is not just a religion, it is a complete social system (legal, dietary, political, and religious) system rolled up into one.    The most telling indictment of this evil religion, is that those nations which are the most ardent in following it in its most pure form, are exactly the same strife prone sheetholes holding out the begging bowl, while causing so much trouble in this world.     Muslim countries are places where doctors and aid workers either get murdered or are flung into dungeons by Kalashnikov toting crazies, for the crime of trying to prevent the locals from starving to death.

 Muslim countries should be wealthy countries.     Many of them are literally floating on oceans of oil.     Two of them (Egypt and Iraq) possess two of the world’s most fertile river systems.      Many of the world’s most revered archeological treasures exist within the boundaries of the Muslim world, but persistent grenade and bomb attacks upon tourists by Islam’s most ardent supporters has seen tourism dwindle.     Then there was the Taliban and the equally deranged ISIS.    First the Taliban blew up  the fabulous 1,500 year old Babayan Buddha's which could have attracted planeloads of pilgrims.        Then ISIS blew up the fabulous 3000 year old Sumerian temples at Palmyra because they were just "infidel temples."   Real smart, huh?  I guess that comes from breeding with your cousins for 1400 years?

 The evil nature of Islam is revealed in its teachings, from its Koran and from the actions of its Prophet.     The religion was invented by a genocidal pedophile warlord called Mohammad, who kept an11 year old wife (Aisha), and who spread his religion by the simple expedient of killing anyone who did not become a Muslim.     This extreme hostility to non Muslims is a singular characteristic of Islam, and it is validated by many verses in the Koran.     These verses demand that its adherents must understand that non Muslims are not quite human, must never be trusted, can be lied too, and that a good Muslim must maintain total social separation from Kuffar (non Muslim) inferiors.      Think of the Ku Klux Klan or Nazi Germany inventing their own religions, and you got Islam.

 It is a religion which validates the idea that a man should beat his wife, and even helpfully recommends the length and width of the rod which a good Muslim man should use to do the job.     It is a religion which validates the idea that Muslims who turn away from Islam should be murdered, and there are some Muslim countries where that is in fact the written law, and many others where the practice is widespread, although not openly admitted to in that countries law.    Any religion which validates the murder of apostates is pure evil.

 Here in Australia, it can be deduced that whatever virtues the Islamic faith bestows upon its adherents, respect for law, honesty, non violence, and a work ethic do not appear to be the most prominent.     Muslims are very disproportionately involved in crimes of violence and drug trafficking, and are also seriously overrepresented in welfare dependency.  

 That Muslims are a danger to Australian society can be seen from the behaviour and the statement of the former “moderate” head Muslims in Australia, Sheik Al Hilali.    When not praising suicide bombers, or heaping scorn on Australians, Hilali indirectly told his flock that if an Australian women gets raped by a Believer, she has no one to blame but herself, because she did not adhere to the standards of behaviour of the Islamic world.     One of the 70 girls (Megan) gang raped by Muslim race hate rape gangs at the time of the 2000 Olympics, replied to the Sheik’s suggestion by saying “I used to tell people that what happened to me had nothing to do with Islam, now Sheik Al Hilaly has proven me wrong.”

 Throughout the world, most religions today can more or less get along with one another, but no religion has ever been able to get along with Islam.   Islam will always seek to dominate.  If it can not dominate an entire country, it will dominate entire suburbs by causing the former locals to flee in terror.   The rule of thumb appears to be that when Muslims reach about 5% of a population, then you have got real problems.    Far from having a happy multicultural society, you end up with a Balkanized society with a Muslim monoculture in one particular area demanding Sharia law.

 If this is the vision splendid that Dreamer dreams about for a multicultural western world, then may Dreamer live in interesting times.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;That Muslims are a danger to Australian society can be seen from the behaviour and the statement of the former

Well look now because Im on your side now because now I dont believe in God because any more now because I have now woken up now  to the realty now that all that baloney is just total baloney any way. So having laid it out on the line now I reckon  your got to be careful about saying that the ragheads are dangerous because when you totally analize it in the end there no more dangerous than the Christians. Because when you analize the right prespective you realize that the Christians do just as much terrorist stuff a round the world and they have knocked off more people and coursed more destruction than the Muslims ever have. And they shove there religion down more peoples throats than the Muslims to. Look at what those bible bashers do in the Middle east when people are fleaing there countries. They pitch up tents on the borders dishing out bibles to the rag heads and tell them where they can go for shelter and free food. Like der at churches of coarse.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Let's wrap this up quick the weather is beautiful.

@MayCaesar

Posting faster with less accuracy. I tend to post  morein the summer/winter. I don't want to debate endlessly during the nice spring/fall weather.

"Nobody is saying anything of this kind about Muslims though, so your analogy is completely irrelevant." MayCaesar

You compared Islam to Nazism. This cheapens the victims of the holocaust. Now you are backpedaling when you are caught.

Funny that you don't know the basics of the Rohingya genocide, that is still ongoing, source wikipedia.

" Meta has been sued for their failure to address anti-Muslim attacks on their
platforms by victims of the Rohingya genocide , and yet Facebook failed to act on 94% of
posts in this sample." ccdh

White Christians dominate the western world. The nations with the most powerful military and media.

I am contesting that allegation.

"the court said, adding that the statements were not based on facts and were intended to denigrate Islam." DW.com

"and the context is such that European Christians have moved on from their barbaric ways centuries ago, while Middle-Eastern Muslims have not." MayCaesar

What proof do you have of these wild accusations against Muslims? I can point to plenty examples of Christians holding onto barbaric ways. Mormons being sued by the boy scouts, South Baptist Convention, and Roman Catholic are all know for turning a blind eye towards the terrible crime of pedophilia. To then lump all Muslims together by the actions of the few is to create an unfair caricature.

@Bogan

Much of what you said could describe Christians and atheists including Mussolini.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

You compared Islam to Nazism. This cheapens the victims of the holocaust. Now you are backpedaling when you are caught.

I made an analogy with Nazism to illustrate that it is possible to condemn an ideology without condemning every one of its followers. It does not cheapen anything: it is basic logic.

Dreamer said:

Funny that you don't know the basics of the Rohingya genocide, that is still ongoing, source wikipedia.

" Meta has been sued for their failure to address anti-Muslim attacks on their
platforms by victims of the Rohingya genocide , and yet Facebook failed to act on 94% of
posts in this sample." ccdh

Please explain how you came to the conclusion that I "don't know the basics" of the conflict in question.

Dreamer said:

White Christians dominate the western world. The nations with the most powerful military and media.

I am waiting with bated breath for you to point at the country that legally is ruled by white Christians today. 

Dreamer said:

What proof do you have of these wild accusations against Muslims? I can point to plenty examples of Christians holding onto barbaric ways. Mormons being sued by the boy scouts, South Baptist Convention, and Roman Catholic are all know for turning a blind eye towards the terrible crime of pedophilia. To then lump all Muslims together by the actions of the few is to create an unfair caricature.

I have summarized my reasoning above. If you disagree, then please give me an example of a country in which Christians get away with anything comparable to what Muslims get away with in Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Iran: enslaving all women, beheading infidels, having mandatory hardcore religious brainwashing at schools, having no free speech or independent media and murdering political dissidents daily. Give me an example of a Christian movement in existence today that is comparably successful and violent to Al-Qaeda, Fatah, Hamas, ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban or the Islamic Brotherhood.

Bogan

 @Dreamer

Dreamer quote      Much of what you said could describe Christians and atheists including Mussolini.

Wrong again.    

 Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system that makes such private, consensual acts such as homosexuality, adultery, and fornication, capital offenses. 

 Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system which prescribes penalties such as physical maiming and amputation.

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in the unity of church and state.      

Neither Christians nor atheists believe that people who change their faith should be prosecuted and executed. 

Neither Christians nor atheists believe that all men have “uncontrollable lusts” which it is the duty of women to keep in check by adhering to the strictest rules of female modesty.    

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system where a raped woman is blamed and prosecuted.

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system where a woman who accuses a man of raping her, needs to provide two male witnesses “of good character” who watched the rape from start to finish. 

Neither Christians nor atheists believe that a woman’s clitoris or labia should be removed to prevent women experiencing sexual pleasure. 

Neither Christians nor atheists believe that men may marry outside of their faith, but women may not.  

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system where the testimony in court of people of other faiths is discounted.

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system where all a man has to do to divorce his wife is to say “I divorce thee” three times.
   
Neither Christians nor atheists believe that those who criticise religion should be murdered or officially executed.     

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a social system where females have no say in whom they will marry.

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system which mandates women to be accompanied at all times by a male relative. 

Neither Christians nor atheists believe in a legal system where adult women of any age need a male relative’s permission to do anything. 

Neither Christians nor atheists believe that husbands have a marital right to beat their wives, especially with a stick.  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: The USA is dominated by white Christians.

@MayCaesar

The problem is that Islamphobia is racist. If you watch the videos, Islam has been stereotyped down to Arabs who practice Islam. Despite, the fact that Islam encompasses many races.  Furthermore, Islam has been misused by white supremacists and bad political actors as a racist dog whistle against brown people. Islam is a religion not an ideology. Your comparison is a bad analogy, there are more differences than similarities.

"Please explain how you came to the conclusion that I "don't know the basics" of the conflict in question." MayCaesar

You acted like the conflict was in the past tense, using past tense verbs. This ignores the fact that the Rohingya genocide is still occurring and Big tech is letting online hate occur against the victims.

"For almost all of American history, White Christians have represented a large majority of the US population and controlled the levers of government power." CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/white-evangelicals-gop-trump/index.html

This is common knowledge anyways, I shouldn't need a source. White Christians dominate the GOP still.

There are plenty of bad Christians sects. The West Boro Baptist church, fundamental latter day saints, let's not forget violent anti-choice activists,

I assume you have read about how politics poisoned the evangelical church.

"More than a few times, I’ve heard casual talk of civil war inside places that purport to worship the Prince of Peace."

"inside, men wearing earpieces and camouflage pants guard the entrance. Behind them, many hundreds of people jump up and down on a floor of cedar chips. Locke salutes them as “soldiers rising up in God’s army.” Some hear this more literally than others: I spot a few folks carrying guns."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/

What the Cheney administration's disastrous war on Iraq that cost many civilian lives? How is the American Taliban also known as Bush/Cheney Administration any better than the group's you mentioned? Rectal feeding, sexual abuse, and torture of innocent detainees.

Let's not forgot all anti-trans hate and violence encouraged by Christian groups. Or you know the capital hill riot many of which had buses of church members travel to riot. How about all the people we let die of smoking each year, 500,000 in America alone in 2020?  Inholfe uses religion to deny climate change cooking the planet with co2. All the Christian based resistance to vaccines, masks, and mandates during the height of a deadly pandemic allowing the virus to mutate and further harm countries with less wealth.

Islamophobia is a distraction from the problems caused by Christianity, grifters, and bad political actors. Just as anti-Semitic conspiracies act like a scapegoat to allow ineffective and immoral governments to stay in power, see the article series shadowland in the Atlantic.

@Bogan

Most of the problems you list are problems with theocracy. As for female genital mutilation, I don't know. Some apologetics will fiercely deny the practice. This is where having credible sources would really help your case. Female genital mutilation is hardly unique to Islam, animistic tribes, various Christian denominations including catholic and protestant practice this.

"An American woman from a strict white Christian community has told how her parents forced her to undergo female genital mutilation (FGM) as a child - a highly unusual case which activists said could lead to similar stories coming to light."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-religion-fgm-iduskcn1rd2li

Maybe you should try to crack down on female genital mutilation in your own backyard rather than condemning people halfway across the globe who don't even speak the same language as you. Overall, fgm stems from a culture of misogyny and ignorance not Islam.

Think scurvy this had nothing to do with religion yet sailors died horribly from lack of vitamin c due to medical ignorance. Fighting ignorance with bombs in unlikely to succeed, which is why Islamophobia is so dangerous.

I met to spend 15 minutes on this spent 45 opps, I gotta go I have an addiction to these forums. Bye everyone, waves.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

The problem is that Islamphobia is racist. If you watch the videos, Islam has been stereotyped down to Arabs who practice Islam. Despite, the fact that Islam encompasses many races.  Furthermore, Islam has been misused by white supremacists and bad political actors as a racist dog whistle against brown people. Islam is a religion not an ideology. Your comparison is a bad analogy, there are more differences than similarities.

What does any of this have to do with the specific criticisms I have made? "Islamophobia"? "Racist"? "Stereotyping down to Arabs"? "Misused by white supremacists"?

Respond to my criticisms of Islam.

You acted like the conflict was in the past tense, using past tense verbs. This ignores the fact that the Rohingya genocide is still occurring and Big tech is letting online hate occur against the victims.

The deaths that constitute what some media call "genocide" occurred in 2016-2017. That timeline is in the past.

Justify your criticism that I "don't know the basics".

"For almost all of American history, White Christians have represented a large majority of the US population and controlled the levers of government power." CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/white-evangelicals-gop-trump/index.html

This is common knowledge anyways, I shouldn't need a source. White Christians dominate the GOP still.

I will repeat my request: "I am waiting with bated breath for you to point at the country that legally is ruled by white Christians today."

Dreamer said:

There are plenty of bad Christians sects. The West Boro Baptist church, fundamental latter day saints, let's not forget violent anti-choice activists,

I assume you have read about how politics poisoned the evangelical church.

"More than a few times, I’ve heard casual talk of civil war inside places that purport to worship the Prince of Peace."

"inside, men wearing earpieces and camouflage pants guard the entrance. Behind them, many hundreds of people jump up and down on a floor of cedar chips. Locke salutes them as “soldiers rising up in God’s army.” Some hear this more literally than others: I spot a few folks carrying guns."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/

What the Cheney administration's disastrous war on Iraq that cost many civilian lives? How is the American Taliban also known as Bush/Cheney Administration any better than the group's you mentioned? Rectal feeding, sexual abuse, and torture of innocent detainees.

Let's not forgot all anti-trans hate and violence encouraged by Christian groups. Or you know the capital hill riot many of which had buses of church members travel to riot. How about all the people we let die of smoking each year, 500,000 in America alone in 2020?  Inholfe uses religion to deny climate change cooking the planet with co2. All the Christian based resistance to vaccines, masks, and mandates during the height of a deadly pandemic allowing the virus to mutate and further harm countries with less wealth.

Islamophobia is a distraction from the problems caused by Christianity, grifters, and bad political actors. Just as anti-Semitic conspiracies act like a scapegoat to allow ineffective and immoral governments to stay in power, see the article series shadowland in the Atlantic.

I will repeat my other request as well: 

"If you disagree, then please give me an example of a country in which Christians get away with anything comparable to what Muslims get away with in Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Iran: enslaving all women, beheading infidels, having mandatory hardcore religious brainwashing at schools, having no free speech or independent media and murdering political dissidents daily. Give me an example of a Christian movement in existence today that is comparably successful and violent to Al-Qaeda, Fatah, Hamas, ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban or the Islamic Brotherhood."

Bogan

@Dreamer

Dreamer quote   Most of the problems you list are problems with theocracy.

Islamic government is a theocracy.     ISIS, the Taliban, and the Iranian ayatollahs are right.     In a pure Islamic state, which is what all Islamic states are supposed to be, the ayatollahs, imams, and mullahs are both the government AND the judges in the courts.

 

Dreamer quote      As for female genital mutilation, I don't know. Some apologetics will fiercely deny the practice. This is where having credible sources would really help your case.    

Female genital mutilation is not practiced by all Islamic societies, but it is widespread in some Islamic communities.   

     

Dreamer quote      Female genital mutilation is hardly unique to Islam, animistic tribes, various Christian denominations including catholic and protestant practice this.

Your assertion is completely dishonest.     You are trying to equate a single instance of Christian female genital mutilation with the widespread practice of this outrage in some Islamic communities.     It was clear from your link that the woman who was forced to undergo this illegal act was not a white person, her family was probably from the very same Islamic countries where this outrage is common.

 

Dreamer quote     Maybe you should try to crack down on female genital mutilation in your own backyard rather than condemning people halfway across the globe who don't even speak the same language as you.

Here in Australia, we are doing just that.    The western Sydney, mainly Muslim suburb of Bankstown, has a hospital where the staff routinely have to deal with female patients suffering from infections caused by female genital mutilation.     One newspaper claimed it was two a week, which gives you an indication of how prevalent this outrage is in the Islamic communities.        Social workers have told the Islamic communities that this practice must stop or prosecutions of the families involved will be forthcoming.    

 In addition, imams who conduct child marriages in Australia are now being prosecuted and jailed.     All of this could have been avoided had people like yourself realised that Islam is incompatible with western values, and we had discriminated against Islamic immigration for that very good reason. 

 

Dreamer quote  Overall, fgm stems from a culture of misogyny and ignorance not Islam.

 Islam Is a culture of misogyny and ignorance.        There is no women’s lib in Islamic countries.      Islam is a male dominated religion where females are considered very much inferior to men.     

Dreamer quote   Think scurvy this had nothing to do with religion yet sailors died horribly from lack of vitamin c due to medical ignorance. Fighting ignorance with bombs in unlikely to succeed, which is why Islamophobia is so dangerous.

 Your analogy makes no sense.     If you want to continue living within a western style democracy with our liberal values, which are generally agreed upon by the majority, then it is imperative to not import people who do not agree with democracy, and who’s values are both religiously ordained and are diametrically opposed to western culture.      Failure to recognise this simple fact has led to so many problems in western societies, that even the wimpy woke Europeans are starting to get a reality check. 

Barnardot

@Bogan ;Neither Christians nor atheists believe

Okay then if your going to be totally black and white and bogin headed a bout all those things your got to realize the following points that I should point out

Putting Christians and atheists in the same boat is a bit rich because Muslims and Christians are no worse or better than each other and atheists simply dont believe there collective crap beliefs.

If you list all those things 500 years ago then it would apply to Christians only Christians did more a atrocious things and more. Christians went a round dragging women by the hair in to the street for putting hog warts cream on saws. Then they would tie them to the end of a sea saw and dip them in the river. If they didn't drown then that means they were a which so they got burned at the steak. If they drown then they were innocent. Did the rag heads do that. No they didn't. 

And does the Qoran tell stories as bad as a man banging on the door of a bar tender demanding to shag an other man who was staying there then being told by the bar tender oh no dont do that shag my 2 daughters in stead which they did and when the bar tenders wife looked around she got turned in to a pillow of salt. Then the next day the 2 daughters got there father drunk then they both rapped him and got pregnant. No it doesn't. Im not saying that Muslims are sweat and innocent its just that if you look at Christians they did every thing the Muslims do but always had to go one up on them all the time. 

And you have to take in to a count the time difference. The rag heads are about 200 years behind the Christians with their religious rules. And you have to hand it to them on the good side of there faith they are a lot more disciplined and the women look pretty smart in there hijabs and all their polite and un smutty ways. And all there old fashioned spicy religious cultural food is miles better than all that boiled bland crap that Christians dish up. So in the end you have to stand out and be adjective and stop thinking one is worse than the other.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Learn to read.

@Bogan

Jennifer is white.

" It was clear from your link that the woman who was forced to undergo this illegal act was not a white person, her family was probably from the very same Islamic countries where this outrage is common." Bogan

"Jennifer is the second white American woman from a strict religious background to talk publicly about undergoing FGM."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-religion-fgm-iduskcn1rd2li

My last post was supposed to be my last for awhile, but I couldn't resist correcting a pants on fire lie by Bogan.

MayCaesar

Barnardot said:

If you list all those things 500 years ago then it would apply to Christians only Christians did more a atrocious things and more. Christians went a round dragging women by the hair in to the street for putting hog warts cream on saws. Then they would tie them to the end of a sea saw and dip them in the river. If they didn't drown then that means they were a which so they got burned at the steak. If they drown then they were innocent. Did the rag heads do that. No they didn't. 

This argument keeps coming up over and over again... Buddy, it was, as you said, 500 years ago. Christians do not do that any more: they have gotten rid of 90% of the most barbaric practices their church used to prescribe. Have Muslims gotten rid of 90% of the most barbaric practices their mosque used to prescribe? No, not even 50%. In fact, in certain respects Islamic societies have gotten worse: women were not in as bad a position in any of the Islamic countries 500 years ago relative to men, as they are today in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan or Sudan. 500 years ago Middle-Eastern women were widely known as the most attractive, the most exotic, the most interesting women in the world, and having a lower from the Middle East was something European nobles would show off to their peers same way teens of rich parents show off their Bentleys. Today, well... few people know what women in some of the countries mentioned above even look like, as their faces and bodies are completely obscured by black rags whenever they are in public.

There are no Christian theocracies in the world today comparable to the theocracies of 500 years ago. There are numerous Muslim theocracies around the world, and there are even local theocratic institutions in some of the Western countries such as the Islamic courts of the UK. Why do you think that is?

Bogan

@Barnardot ;       Putting Christians and atheists in the same boat is a bit rich because Muslims and Christians are no worse or better than each other and atheists simply dont believe there collective crap beliefs.

What does "there" mean?   

The simplest definition of there is “in or at that place.” It is usually used as an adverb of place, meaning it expresses where an action is taking place. This is the main quality that sets there apart from the other words in its homonymic trio. 

There is often used to denote a specific location:

We will meet there after work and head to the concert together.

The word there can be used to pinpoint locations in the more abstract sense as well.

As my oldest friend, you have been there for me through thick and thin.

Besides its use as an adverb, there can also be used as a pronoun to introduce a clause or sentence. This makes it slightly more complex than their and they’re, as it can be used as two different parts of speech. 

There is a chance of rain this afternoon. 

What does their mean?

The word their is the possessive form of the pronoun they. Often followed by a noun, their indicates ownership and describes something owned by one or more persons. 

The simplest way to remember what’s unique about their is that it denotes possession or ownership. This means that it is most commonly used as a third-person pronoun, describing a noun that is owned by several people. 

While Martha and Vinny were on vacation, we dog-sat their two poodles. 

Although their is generally used in a plural form, it is also used as a gender-neutral personal pronoun in place of his or her. 

Someone left their purse on the subway. 

Bogan

@Dreamer ;    My last post was supposed to be my last for awhile, but I couldn't resist correcting a pants on fire lie by Bogan.

I can understand your need to crow about how you got me on a single miserable little point, which does not detract from what i said one iota.    After all, since you never have any wins, we all are happy that you had at least one.   

Barnardot

@Dreamer @Bogan ;which does not detract from what i said one iota

I think that you will find that this is a common tactic used by extremists such as bogans and red necks. They argue by trying to be bully boys who do donuts in there Holdin and Ram pickups by isolating one point and pretending thats the hole argument and the other tactic of coarse is ignoring a valid point completely because they know that they have been defeated. Jus as well the world does not have to many of them who think they are the bench mark and every thing else is sissy boy.

Bogan

@Barnardot ;     They argue by trying to be bully boys who do donuts in there Holdin and Ram pickups by isolating one point and pretending thats the hole argument and the other tactic of coarse is ignoring a valid point completely because they know that they have been defeated. 

hole / whole

“Hole” and “whole” have almost opposite meanings. A hole is a lack of something, like the hole in a doughnut (despite the confusing fact that the little nubbins of fried dough are called “doughnut holes”). “Whole” means things like entire, complete, and healthy and is used in expressions like “the whole thing,” “whole milk,” “whole wheat,” and “with a whole heart.”

Barnardot

@Bogan ;“Hole” and “whole” have almost opposite meanings. 

All right then how a bout a bogan with a whole in the head where the hole of his brain should be.