Do you know about Schedule F? Be afraid.. Be VERY afraid.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@jack ;  Every progressive, liberal, democrat, marxist, polluting our federal government should be fired, deported or imprisoned subsequent due process...these are enemies of America's Constitutional Republic...a vile and defiled people.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@jack ;  Every progressive, liberal, democrat, marxist, polluting our federal government should be fired, deported or imprisoned subsequent due process...these are enemies of America's Constitutional Republic...a vile and defiled people.

Just like what the Christian Hitler said about the Jews.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Jack ; @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; When a people seek to undermine the US Constitution and personal freedoms through tyranny and perversion and deception, those people should be treated as the enemy they are....they should be provided due process and depending on their offenses, deported or imprisoned or hung by the neck in the public square...that will stop this destruction to America's values and morals and ethics and thereby secure a sustainable future for our posterity. Your atheist ilk is at the forefront of this treasonous behavior via the "Deep State" and this why I find you and your atheist - secular humanist - progressive ILK disgusting and offensive as a moral, ethical, political, enemy. You and yours are Satan's servants.

 

MayCaesar

Federal workers no longer having preferential treatment relative to private sector workers? Sounds fantastic to me.

But hey, John Oliver told you that it is bad and will somehow make the government more corrupt, and you did not stop for a second to think it through - so you are afraid. Nice.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Jack ; @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; When a people seek to undermine the US Constitution and personal freedoms through tyranny and perversion and deception, those people should be treated as the enemy they are....they should be provided due process and depending on their offenses, deported or imprisoned or hung by the neck in the public square...that will stop this destruction to America's values and morals and ethics and thereby secure a sustainable future for our posterity. Your atheist ilk is at the forefront of this treasonous behavior via the "Deep State" and this why I find you and your atheist - secular humanist - progressive ILK disgusting and offensive as a moral, ethical, political, enemy. You and yours are Satan's servants.

 

A faith you have to lie for isn't worth having. You seek to undermine the US constitution all the time, even said you can't wait for the order to be given to slaughter innocents in the name your false god. 

I happen to agree that federal workers should be no more protected than private workers but they don't deserve worse protection as your zealot lunacy advocates. Before you use word salads you should learn what they mean and until then keep your fantasy blind faith double digit iq opinions to yourself. Do you know what that means?

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Federal workers no longer having preferential treatment relative to private sector workers? Sounds fantastic to me.

But hey, John Oliver told you that it is bad and will somehow make the government more corrupt, and you did not stop for a second to think it through - so you are afraid. Nice.

LOL you forget May, the left in America worship at the alter of government (as long as the left controls it) and deeply feels government employees are anointed and should be above us mere subjects.

jack

MayCaesar said:

But hey, John Oliver told you that it is bad and will somehow make the government more corrupt, and you did not stop for a second to think it through - so you are afraid. Nice.

Hello May:

Yeah, my MAGA friends tell me that I have NO belief system, and that's why I believe MSNBC and folks like John Oliver..  And, it's fine with me that you think I'm an empty vessel waiting to be filled with liberal drivel.  

All, I'm going to say to you is to repeat that you are a particularly nasty fellow..

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Jack ; @Joeseph ; @MayCaesar You represent the vile and disgusting in our society as an atheist...in my World, you are an enemy of all that is good and sustainable...you have chosen filth and irrelevancy....

jack

Factfinder said:

I happen to agree that federal workers should be no more protected than private workers

Hello Fact:

The only reason to protect a government worker, is so that the lunatic in the White House, ANY lunatic in the White House can't force my mailman to wear Trump garb.

Truthfully, I don't want ANY government worker to deny services to me because I'm NOT a MAGA puke.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

I happen to agree that federal workers should be no more protected than private workers

Hello Fact:

The only reason to protect a government worker, is so that the lunatic in the White House, ANY lunatic in the White House can't force my mailman to wear Trump garb.

Truthfully, I don't want ANY government worker to deny services to me because I'm NOT a MAGA puke.

excon

I doubt that will be the case but I wouldn't want your services denied for that reason as well. 

The reality we face is Trump who may be revenge minded, very much a possibility; or Biden who acted against our best interest and now according the special prosecutor is mentally unfit to prosecute. So why is he still in office?

Not our finest hour politically for America

MayCaesar

jack said:

Hello May:

Yeah, my MAGA friends tell me that I have NO belief system, and that's why I believe MSNBC and folks like John Oliver..  And, it's fine with me that you think I'm an empty vessel waiting to be filled with liberal drivel.  

All, I'm going to say to you is to repeat that you are a particularly nasty fellow..

excon

I did not say I thought that, but I must admit that you do make a very compelling case for it being true.

jack

Factfinder said:

according the special prosecutor is mentally unfit to prosecute. So why is he still in office?

Hello Fact:

Is the special prosecutor a medical doctor?  No, huh..  Then don't bother me with right wing poppycock..

He's there because we elected him..  That's the way it works, here in the good 'ole USofA.  If you think he's bonkers, don't vote for him.   I don't like the choices either, but we got -  what we got.

excon

jack

MayCaesar said:

I did not say I thought that, but I must admit that you do make a very compelling case for it being true.

Hello again, May:

So, if your insult wasn't clear enough, you doubled down..  I say again, you are a NASTY piece of work.

excon

tsword

@Factfinder; you are obsessed with hitler, this is you. 

Delilah6120

@jack

Hello:

Trump and his supporters developed a plan to deal with what is known as Schedule F, which will convert tens of thousands of civil servants into a specialty employment class that lacks job protections, and makes them fireable, and hirable, at will.

In other words, on day one, Trump is gonna drain federal workers from the swamp, who're loyal to the country, and replace them with federal workers who're loyal to Trump.

I don't want that.  You?

No I don't Jack and neither do the majority of Americans. I am simply exhausted with The Trump Show.

Trump is a reality TV star who has lived his past decades in wealth, stardom and illusion. He is now Director of The Trump Show. He is THAT delusional. His actors are his sycophants all seemingly auditioning for top acting positions. Fox News IS entertaining and the actors are dazzling in their flimflam, bully roles. Just listen to how trump's allies and aids theatrically rant and rave aggressively, loudly and nonsensically.  All vying for top role. And they are getting more aggressive and loud by the minute. 

Yup, he will fire anyone not loyal to him. Period. And he is holding a special employment class and the insurrectionists will get dibs on the best roles. Imagine getting a position that you don''t have to have credentials for other than Bullying, Lying, and Cheating?

If it wasn't so scary I'd be laughing.

tsword

@factfinder I found you one the internet.

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

according the special prosecutor is mentally unfit to prosecute. So why is he still in office?

Hello Fact:

Is the special prosecutor a medical doctor?  No, huh..  Then don't bother me with right wing poppycock..

He's there because we elected him..  That's the way it works, here in the good 'ole USofA.  If you think he's bonkers, don't vote for him.   I don't like the choices either, but we got -  what we got.

excon

That's the issue with the left that's dragging our nation down. You know for a fact Biden is an incompetent boob who sniffs little girls hair but just because it's hip to hate trump you happily leave him in office. It's the lefts religious zealotry for party ideology over America that's ruined the democrat party. How's your blind dedication any different then MEGA nuts? JFK must be rolling over in his grave at what you stand for. If it were Trump you would be quick to agree with the special prosecutor and be calling for Trump to be certified as such medically and force his resignation. After all the special prosecutor is an expert at sizing up the person he interviews. In America people with integrity recognize when someone flat out isn't capable of performing their duties anymore. The fact that his policies have been disastrous for us as a nation is further proof he can't function enough to run this country. Trump is scum, I agree but four more years of him will be better for us as a whole than potentially 12 more years of Biden/Harris personal agendas. Sorry, but our country is more important then a man's right to identify as a woman and climate change scammers on the world stage. Don't you think? 

jack

Factfinder said:

That's the issue with the left that's dragging our nation down. You know for a fact Biden is an incompetent boob who sniffs little girls hair but just because it's hip to hate trump you happily leave him in office.

Hello again, F:

Du*de.  We don't just leave him in office..  We elected him.  If you wanna impeach him, or have him declared incompetent pursuant to the 25th Amendment, go for it.  I ain't stopping you.. NOBODY is stopping you.  The only thing you lack is EVIDENCE.  If you don't want him to win the next election, don't vote for him..

Plus, I don't buy what FOX News is selling.  Biden is a 30 year veteran of the Senate, with an impeccable reputation.. He took the train to work every day, and wouldn't sell his name for a measly $40,000.  Look.  I'm BROKE.  $40 large ain't enough for me to sully my good name.

I dunno what kind of crazy nation you're talking about here but it AIN'T the good 'ole USA.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

That's the issue with the left that's dragging our nation down. You know for a fact Biden is an incompetent boob who sniffs little girls hair but just because it's hip to hate trump you happily leave him in office.

Hello again, F:

Du*de.  We don't just leave him in office..  We elected him.  If you wanna impeach him, or have him declared incompetent pursuant to the 25th Amendment, go for it.  I ain't stopping you.. NOBODY is stopping you.  The only thing you lack is EVIDENCE.  If you don't want him to win the next election, don't vote for him..

Plus, I don't buy what FOX News is selling.  Biden is a 30 year veteran of the Senate, with an impeccable reputation.. He took the train to work every day, and wouldn't sell his name for a measly $40,000.  Look.  I'm BROKE.  $40 large ain't enough for me to sully my good name.

I dunno what kind of crazy nation you're talking about here but it AIN'T the good 'ole USA.

excon

NBC news not Fox. Please, grow up. Otherwise your service to this country is in vain. Your lord never took the train to work everyday. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/-nightmare-special-counsels-assessment-bidens-mental-fitness-triggers-rcna137975

jack

Factfinder said:

NBC news not Fox. Please, grow up. Otherwise your service to this country is in vain. Your lord never took the train to work everyday. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/-nightmare-special-counsels-assessment-bidens-mental-fitness-triggers-rcna137975

Hello again Fact:

I read the NBC link..  You know what I DIDN'T find???  Any EVIDENCE that he lied about taking the train to work.  If he's a lying sack of sh*t like you say, don't vote for him.   But, you gotta do better than that.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

NBC news not Fox. Please, grow up. Otherwise your service to this country is in vain. Your lord never took the train to work everyday. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/-nightmare-special-counsels-assessment-bidens-mental-fitness-triggers-rcna137975

Hello again Fact:

I read the NBC link..  You know what I DIDN'T find???  Any EVIDENCE that he lied about taking the train to work.  If he's a lying sack of sh*t like you say, don't vote for him.   But, you gotta do better than that.

excon

Given his history, no reason to believe him either. I get it Jack, trump creepy, but it's creepier that you're proud of a perverted, incompetent boob because your ideology, stoopid as it is, is more important than the country you claimed to serve. That I will never get about fringe liberals. 

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Federal workers no longer having preferential treatment relative to private sector workers? Sounds fantastic to me.

Your statement assumes that federal workers actually receive preferential treatment. This is your response to what "Mandate for Leadership" is proposing? A Trump presidency will gut the institutions of government completely - firing at will - employees who do not agree 100% with the President - is A OK with you May? A Trump administration using their own hiring process? They will "vet" future employees who work for Americans and guarantee a position to anyone who will remain 100% loyal to Trump. You may have survived two dictatorships and be quite hardened by this. But WE Americans who believe in justice and America - are not hardened and do not intend to allow this dictatorship.

But hey, John Oliver told you that it is bad and will somehow make the government more corrupt, and you did not stop for a second to think it through - so you are afraid. Nice.

Thank Goodness for our comedians as I think it's the only way ""WOOOOOKE" Americans survived this last decade with trump. If you actually read Mandate for Leadership, you would understand that our government will in fact be corrupt under Trump's leadership. You May, have not taken a second to think this through.

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

The absolute joke is that Trump is being used by his conservative allies. They understand his vulnerabilities, know how to get around them (praise and subservience), and use him to pass their extreme right agenda. Both sides are rats. Trump, in return, and having NO ideology whatsoever except adoration, winning and power, does their dirty deeds in return for their 100% loyalty to him - giving him authority to rule as King.

The party of QPQ - quid pro quo. That's the new republican party. The party of tough, aggressive, loud, mean, bullying, gaslighting, lying, cheating.

Trump past allies/aids who are currently in prison or have been sentenced to prison: Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro, Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos, Roger Stone, Rick Gates, and Allen Weisselberg.

Number of people involved in the Jan. 6 attempt to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power  =  460 in prison currently.

Ironic isn't it? That the seeming mastermind behind all these imprisonments is still running at large - shooting off his 8 year-old mouth, while his foot soldiers remain jailed.

You think the DOJ is weaponized and unfair and the press has been harsh? 

You think Trump is innocent? 

TICK TOCK.

TRUMP IS NEXT.

The Trump Show will go down as the absolute worst time in American History. 

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

Have you read the actual documentation? Most federal employees enjoy civil service protections - which is preferential treatment relative to private sector employees that do not enjoy the same projections - while those that work on the Schedule F appointment lose this privilege. It has nothing to do with "firing at will of employees who do not agree 100% with the President", which would be in violation of their contract.

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

I don't understand your link except you thought it was proof of Biden's old age? Hur, in his efforts to uncover corruption for the new republican party, found NOTHING incriminating on the documents Biden had. So he delivered for his republicans frothing at the mouth for evidence. He condescendingly painted a deceptive picture of Biden being senile. It was a pathetic attempt to make up for the republican loss.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: Have you read the actual documentation?

@MayCaesar

Have you read the actual documentation? Most federal employees enjoy civil service protections - which is preferential treatment relative to private sector employees that do not enjoy the same projections - while those that work on the Schedule F appointment lose this privilege. It has nothing to do with "firing at will of employees who do not agree 100% with the President", which would be in violation of their contract.

I have a pdf of 2025 Mandate for Leadership bookmarked. Yes, I have read parts of this - and continue to read - as it is almost 900 pages of the usual Trump Show - full of bluster, and bravado.

Yes, federal employees enjoy civil service protections. These are designed to ensure they are treated fairly and that decisions on their employment are based on MERIT and not their political affiliation. This IS NOT preferential treatment relative to the private sector. This is fairness. The (supposed) new Trump administration will strip all rights from federal employees; merit based principles, the right to due process, protections of discrimination, whistleblower protections, and even their right to appeal if they are unfairly fired. The (supposed) new Trump administration will label these same federal employees as "Schedule F" employees (designed to subjugate those that won't abide by Trump's extreme policies), thereby stripping them of their protections and making them at-will employees that are easy to fire. Schedule F works AGAINST merit principles and benefits Trump as he demands 100% loyalty. 

Democracy? Abiding by our Constitution?

Or Fascism? 

https://protectdemocracy.org/work/trumps-schedule-f-plan-explained/

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

I think you are talking about something else. Here is the Executive Order in question:https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-10-26/pdf/2020-23780.pdf

"Civil service protections" absolutely constitute preferential treatment if they protect federal employees, but do not protect private ones. That is the definition of "preferential treatment".

And you are wrong: "stripping all rights from federal employees" is nowhere in the document. I am not sure why you are linking a source founded by Obama's lawyers, clearly biased, instead of linking the actual document and citing the relevant passages from there.

Factfinder

Delilah6120 said:

@Factfinder

I don't understand your link except you thought it was proof of Biden's old age? Hur, in his efforts to uncover corruption for the new republican party, found NOTHING incriminating on the documents Biden had. So he delivered for his republicans frothing at the mouth for evidence. He condescendingly painted a deceptive picture of Biden being senile. It was a pathetic attempt to make up for the republican loss.

One must be an objective thinker to realize what Hur said about Biden's mental incompetence so it's not surprising you failed to understand reality again. An objective thinker would understand the importance of what Hur said and request Biden be medically reevaluated to see if a professional interviewer's reasons for not charging Biden, (too incompetent to stand trial) is in fact true. But no, no critical thinking at all from the left as their world agendas are being implemented at America's tax payers expense. So your position is don't rock the boat. Hur was on Mueller's team who investigated Trump when your side went ahead with the Russian collusion hoax that backfired on you, remember? Please educate yourself. 

What was the "deceptive" remarks towards Biden's senility? Well documented senile lapses in public (not to mention sniffing little girls hair, ick) support the fact Biden is incompetent and senile but you don't care cause you hate America and want to be a world citizen? Not trying to be rude it's just that true patriots don't understand your sides willingness to through America under the bus just to appease world elites interested in fleecing America and/or failed ideologies? Before you ask what I'm talking about it's a whole new topic so if you want to debate it, educate yourself and start a thread, but I'm saying I can't vote for someone who doesn't put America first and it's useless to debate someone ignorant of the facts. You know what I'm saying is true because if it were said about Trump you'd be all over that medical examination request. 

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I cannot wait for the debate between those two. A "me-me-me" guy versus a guy not sure where he is 50% of the time.

Factfinder

@Delilah6120

The absolute joke is that Trump is being used by his conservative allies. They understand his vulnerabilities, know how to get around them (praise and subservience), and use him to pass their extreme right agenda. Both sides are rats. Trump, in return, and having NO ideology whatsoever except adoration, winning and power, does their dirty deeds in return for their 100% loyalty to him - giving him authority to rule as King.

Ah yeah, going to need to support these assertions. You realize Biden rules by decree like a King cause nobody wanted to destroy large sloths of environmental lands that it takes to make ev batteries for crappy overpriced cars no one wanted, right? Driving up inflation right before your eyes as you foolishly asserted presidents can't affect inflation.

The party of QPQ - quid pro quo. That's the new republican party. The party of tough, aggressive, loud, mean, bullying, gaslighting, lying, cheating.

Well I'm not part of that movement? Whatever it is it sounds like a carbon copy of the new woke democrat party with one small difference. The republican version doesn't seem to be as interested in perversion.

Trump past allies/aids who are currently in prison or have been sentenced to prison: Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro, Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos, Roger Stone, Rick Gates, and Allen Weisselberg.

Number of people involved in the Jan. 6 attempt to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power  =  460 in prison currently.

Good. If they broke America's laws that's where they should be. Hur thinks so too but if the accused is incompetent he knows the average juror would be sympathetic and not follow the details of the crimes Biden did.

Ironic isn't it? That the seeming mastermind behind all these imprisonments is still running at large - shooting off his 8 year-old mouth, while his foot soldiers remain jailed.

Very ironic indeed. Begs the question has any of them implicated Trump like the Biden associates are implicating Biden, doesn't it?

You think the DOJ is weaponized and unfair and the press has been harsh? 

You think Trump is innocent? 

TICK TOCK.

TRUMP IS NEXT.

The Trump Show will go down as the absolute worst time in American History. 

I agree all these statements could possibly be true. Maybe some are and some aren't. But since the DOJ is stonewalling till  after the election I believe our only chance at slowing the destruction of the American way of life is to get Trump in under the window of opportunity that the DOJ is providing. Then should he be impeached out of office we won't have the idiotic Harris as president. 

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That should be a spectacle!

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

What some people do not seem to understand is it's not about party loss, it's what America loses when these two clowns are the best we can offer as president.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

That's spot on , America deserves better. Trump to me is just funny like the braggert in the local bar  everyone likes prodding to get a rise , Biden is like the guy you help to his car at the local mall as he's forgotten where he parked it.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately I am not a legal expert and found this quite vague and meaningless. I could not find any other link to the original Schedule F. Putting aside the knowledge one may not have of:   1)Trump's immediate scapegoating of the government (who possess more power than him alone), 2) Trump's relentless attacks on our justice system (who hold power over him), 3)  Trump's hateful and derogatory attacks on any government faction (who collectively hold more power than him alone); it only takes one who's paying attention to question Trump's reasons for the initiation of Schedule F. For complete control. As I have no law experience and it's not practical for me to do the deep dive, I initiated help from ChatGPT and asked Jack's original question:

The order aimed to reclassify certain federal positions involved in policymaking into a new employment category called Schedule F, which would be part of the excepted service.Characteristics of Schedule F:Lack of Job Protections: Employees in Schedule F would not have the same civil service protections as those in the competitive service. This means they would lack many of the job protections that typically shield federal employees from arbitrary dismissal.At-Will Employment: Schedule F employees could be hired and fired at will, without the due process protections that are normally required for federal employees.

Implications of Schedule F

Conversion of Positions:The executive order called for the identification and reclassification of federal positions that involved policy determination, advocacy, and similar roles. This could have potentially affected tens of thousands of civil servants.Reduced Job Security:By moving these positions to Schedule F, affected employees would lose the job security provided by the competitive service, making them more vulnerable to dismissal based on political considerations rather than merit.Impact on Federal Workforce:The creation of Schedule F would allow for more significant changes in the federal workforce when administrations change, as incoming administrations could more easily replace key policy-related positions with individuals aligned with their priorities.

Current Status

Revocation: President Biden revoked the Schedule F executive order shortly after taking office in January 2021. This means that the proposed changes under Schedule F did not take effect, and the protections for civil servants in policy roles remain intact.

Proving the Implications

While the executive order was in place, the implications could be outlined as follows:Policy Text: The executive order itself (Executive Order 13957) explicitly stated the creation of Schedule F and its intention to reclassify certain positions.Analysis by Experts: Numerous analyses by legal and policy experts, as well as government oversight organizations, indicated that Schedule F would significantly reduce job protections for affected federal employees and introduce at-will employment for those positions.Responses from Federal Employee Unions and Advocacy Groups: These groups strongly opposed the order, highlighting the potential for increased political interference in the federal workforce and the erosion of merit-based employment principles.

Conclusion

Yes, it can be proven that Schedule F was intended to convert certain civil servant positions into a category that lacks the usual job protections, making them fireable and hirable at will. However, since President Biden revoked this order, these changes were never implemented, and the standard civil service protections remain in place for federal employees in policy-related roles.

In my search for Schedule F explanations, I have found several documents on Schedule F that say Trump's reasons for this are nefarious. I honestly cannot find anything that accurately describes Schedule F in layman's terms. If I have time, I will try to find the proven, credible Schedule F. Feel free to break down that explanation in the document link you sent if you understand it.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Please disregard. My copy/paste failed.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Thanks for the link. I will also post another analyses in a subsequent post.  Unfortunately I am not a legal expert and found your URL quite vague and meaningless. I could not find any other link to the original Schedule F but I will continue to look for more information on Schedule F. Putting aside the knowledge one may not have of:   1)Trump's immediate scapegoating of the government (who possess more power than him alone), 2) Trump's relentless attacks on our justice system (who hold power over him), 3)  Trump's hateful and derogatory attacks on any government faction (who collectively hold more power than him alone); it only takes one who's paying attention to question Trump's reasons for the initiation of Schedule F. For complete control. As I have no law experience and it's not practical for me to do the deep dive into your link, I initiated help from ChatGPT and asked Jack's original question:

can this be proven Schedule F, which will convert tens of thousands of civil servants into a specialty employment class that lacks job protections, and makes them fireable, and hirable, at will.

The concept you're referring to relates to an executive order issued by President Trump in October 2020, which aimed to create a new Schedule F category within the excepted service. Here is a breakdown of what Schedule F proposed and its implications:

Executive Order on Schedule F

Objective:The order aimed to reclassify certain federal positions involved in policymaking into a new employment category called Schedule F, which would be part of the excepted service.Characteristics of Schedule F:Lack of Job Protections: Employees in Schedule F would not have the same civil service protections as those in the competitive service. This means they would lack many of the job protections that typically shield federal employees from arbitrary dismissal.At-Will Employment: Schedule F employees could be hired and fired at will, without the due process protections that are normally required for federal employees.

Implications of Schedule F

Conversion of Positions:The executive order called for the identification and reclassification of federal positions that involved policy determination, advocacy, and similar roles. This could have potentially affected tens of thousands of civil servants.Reduced Job Security:By moving these positions to Schedule F, affected employees would lose the job security provided by the competitive service, making them more vulnerable to dismissal based on political considerations rather than merit.Impact on Federal Workforce:The creation of Schedule F would allow for more significant changes in the federal workforce when administrations change, as incoming administrations could more easily replace key policy-related positions with individuals aligned with their priorities.

Current Status

Revocation: President Biden revoked the Schedule F executive order shortly after taking office in January 2021. This means that the proposed changes under Schedule F did not take effect, and the protections for civil servants in policy roles remain intact.

Proving the Implications

While the executive order was in place, the implications could be outlined as follows:Policy Text: The executive order itself (Executive Order 13957) explicitly stated the creation of Schedule F and its intention to reclassify certain positions.Analysis by Experts: Numerous analyses by legal and policy experts, as well as government oversight organizations, indicated that Schedule F would significantly reduce job protections for affected federal employees and introduce at-will employment for those positions.Responses from Federal Employee Unions and Advocacy Groups: These groups strongly opposed the order, highlighting the potential for increased political interference in the federal workforce and the erosion of merit-based employment principles.

Conclusion

Yes, it can be proven that Schedule F was intended to convert certain civil servant positions into a category that lacks the usual job protections, making them fireable and hirable at will. However, since President Biden revoked this order, these changes were never implemented, and the standard civil service protections remain in place for federal employees in policy-related roles.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Here is another viewpoint on Schedule F and its intentions.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/puar.13433


In my opinion, based on what I already know and what I've reviewed, Schedule F was intended to give Trump more power to fire at will any employee who is not in 100% agreement of him and his policies and one who is not a loyal sycophant. 

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

This is why it is important to do one's research before making strong statements. ChatGPT is not a good source for analyzing legal documents, but even it does not support your allegations. It says exactly what I did: that the Schedule F employees would lose preferential treatment relative to private sector employees. It does not say anything about this proposal having anything to do with Trump's quest for power.

If you still disagree with my usage of the term "preferential treatment", then let us invoke ChatGPT again:

---

MayCaesar:

Hi ChatGPT, Would it be fair to say that Civil Service Protections of federal employees constitute preferential treatment over private sector employees?

ChatGPT:

The assertion that Civil Service Protections of federal employees constitute preferential treatment over private sector employees is a matter of perspective and context. Here's a balanced view:

Civil Service Protections:

1. Job Security: Federal employees often have stronger job security due to protections against arbitrary dismissal. This protection is designed to ensure that employees are not fired for political reasons or without just cause.
2. Due Process: Federal employees are typically entitled to a due process before any disciplinary action is taken, including the right to appeal dismissals.
3. Whistleblower Protections: There are specific protections for federal employees who report misconduct, fraud, or other issues within the government.
4. Benefits and Compensation: Federal employees generally receive competitive benefits packages, including health insurance, retirement plans, and paid leave.

Private Sector Employment:

1. At-Will Employment: Many private sector jobs operate under at-will employment, meaning employees can be dismissed by their employer for any reason (that is not illegal) and without warning, which offers less job security.
2. Flexibility and Mobility: Private sector jobs may offer more flexibility and opportunities for rapid advancement or career changes, which can be attractive to some workers.
3. Performance-Based Employment: Private sector employment often places a greater emphasis on performance, with compensation and job security closely tied to an individual's performance and the company's success.

Considerations:

• Intent and Function: Civil Service Protections are intended to ensure a stable and unbiased federal workforce, free from undue political influence and arbitrary decision-making.
• Comparative Advantage: The advantages of federal employment can be seen as a way to attract and retain talent in the public sector, which might otherwise be drawn to the potentially higher salaries and rapid advancement opportunities in the private sector.
• Market Dynamics: The private sector operates in a competitive market environment, which can drive innovation and efficiency but also leads to less job security and different employment practices.

Conclusion:

Whether Civil Service Protections are seen as preferential treatment depends on one's viewpoint. From one angle, they provide essential safeguards for a fair and effective federal workforce. From another, they might be viewed as advantages that are not typically available to private sector employees. The context of these protections and the nature of federal vs. private sector work are crucial in understanding the fairness of these policies.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Sigh. The point is May that Trump will most likely be a dictator. Those government positions were meant to protect the employees from exactly what we are talking about - Trump having supreme power over anyone who does not prove 100% loyal to him. I'm done with this.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I asked ChatGPT:

Are Civil Service Protections of federal employees in place to protect the employees from the unchecked and unregulated power of one man, the president?

Yes, Civil Service Protections for federal employees are designed to protect them from the unchecked and unregulated power of any single individual, including the President. These protections aim to ensure that federal employment decisions are based on merit and free from political influence or personal bias. Here are some key points explaining how these protections work:

1. Merit System Principles: The foundation of the federal civil service is the merit system, which requires that hiring and promotion are based on qualifications, competence, and performance rather than political affiliation or other non-merit factors.

2. Civil Service Reform Act of 1978: This legislation established the framework for protecting federal employees from unfair practices, such as wrongful termination or political coercion. It created the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB), and the Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA) to oversee and enforce these protections.

3. Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB): The MSPB serves as an independent quasi-judicial agency that provides federal employees with a means to appeal adverse actions, such as suspensions, demotions, or removals, ensuring that such actions are taken for legitimate reasons and not for political or arbitrary reasons.

4. Whistleblower Protections: Federal employees are protected from retaliation for reporting misconduct, fraud, waste, and abuse within the government. These protections are crucial for maintaining accountability and transparency within federal agencies.

5. Union Representation: Many federal employees are represented by unions, which can provide additional protections and advocacy in cases of alleged unfair treatment or violations of employee rights.

6. Due Process Rights: Federal employees are entitled to due process before they can be terminated or disciplined. This includes notice of the proposed action, the reasons for it, and an opportunity to respond.

These protections collectively ensure that federal employees can perform their duties without undue political pressure and with a focus on serving the public interest. While the President has significant authority over the executive branch, the civil service protections create a system of checks and balances that safeguard employees from arbitrary and capricious actions.

I think we're beating a dead horse here. The point of Jack's post and video was to highlight Trump's and his sycophant's reason for Schedule F. He wants complete power over any government employee.  

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

99.999+% of federal positions are occupied by people the president never even interacts with. I have worked in a federal research organization, and the White House was separated from us by many layers of intermediaries. I had one of the types of appointments that do not offer Civil Service Protections (admit it, you were not aware that such appointments have always existed), and I was absolutely free to say whatever I wanted politics-wise. In fact, on the research campus I saw one of the highest concentrations of government skeptics in my life.

People who the president does interact a lot with, he/she had the ability to fire and appoint at will before Schedule F. In the document, you can find the following passage:

(e) Nothing in this order shall be construed to limit or narrow the positions that are or may be listed in Schedule C.

This very directly contradicts the idea that this has anything to do with Trump's desire to fire those who disagree with him.

The reason we are beating a dead horse here is because I am reading the actual document and facts, and you are not and instead inserting your preferred interpretations of some fuzzy conception of "Schedule F". When one person goes by facts and another by fantasies, then yes, no progress can be made here.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

You think everything you post takes precedence over Trump's evils?

Nice try.

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

I do not understand the question. What do you mean by the content of my posts taking precedence over Trump's evils? The content and Trump's evils are not even in the same linguistic category.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I believe the point of Jack's post is the accentuate the power he STILL has to undermine our government and justice system.
Am I bias? You bet I am. Do I believe Trump can override the majority of protections set in place for government employees? You bet I do? Do I believe Trump and his sycophants are placing these employees in a less protected category so help Americans? Do I believe for a moment that Schedule F will be in place to "drain the swamp"? Not an F'in chance. So we've reached an impasse.

jack

MayCaesar said:

@Delilah6120

I do not understand the question. What do you mean by the content of my posts taking precedence over Trump's evils? The content and Trump's evils are not even in the same linguistic category.

Hello May:

I'm enjoying your debate.  I think the problem here, is you don't like civil service, unions or any type of employment protections.  Philosophically, I don't disagree.  The hope - my hope - is that the free market will protect the workers, and provide us with the best services and products money can buy..  And, it would work that way if nobody had their hands on scale.  But, somebody does. And, Trump isn't hiding any of it. He wants a federal workforce loyal to him and NOT to government.

I don't want that..  And, if the libs ever take over, you don't want it either.

excon

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

Again, the reason for it is that you operate on beliefs and interpretations, while I prefer to look at facts. No evidence has been demonstrated that the document in question would have the effect Jack claimed it would: "In other words, on day one, Trump is gonna drain federal workers from the swamp, who're loyal to the country, and replace them with federal workers who're loyal to Trump." You classified his post as "Great Argument", but I have yet to see anything that suggests this conclusion.

Even if I were to grant you that Trump is a power-hungry maniac who wants to fill the government with those loyal to him, you would have to do some work to connect this document to that overarching goal. That work has not been done. And unless it has, what we are doing here does not constitute a debate. We are just talking about emotions and feelings.

jack

MayCaesar said:

@Delilah6120

Again, the reason for it is that you operate on beliefs and interpretations

Hello again, May:

Lemme see if I can tighten this up..  Were we to loosen the protections federal workers have, your belief and interpretation is, that Trump won't take advantage of it..  And, of course, he says he will and why wouldn't we believe him? 

excon

MayCaesar

@jack

Please show me where I made this assumption. I do not recall that.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I get it May.  I just do not want to waste any more time on this issue. For me and likely millions of others who understand that - Trump works for Trump only - are operating from a place of knowledge of his past history and his 4 years in the presidency. We simply do not need any evidence to prove that whatever he does, he does to protect himself. Because protecting himself is Trump's superpower.

 
I am 100% in alignment with Jack's statement that "Trump is gonna drain federal workers from the swamp, who're loyal to the country, and replace them with federal workers who're loyal to Trump." And since I do not aspire to be a lawyer, I care not to waste time or deep dive into the legal language.

jack

MayCaesar said:

@jack

Please show me where I made this assumption. I do not recall that.

Hello again, May:

See?  That's what makes you so slippery. Your entire argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that Trump won't take advantage of the law, and then PRETEND you made no such argument..  What you forget, is that we can read..

excon