How Likely Is Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life?

just_sayin

What do you mean by 'extraterrestrial'?  Would that include God, angels or demons?  If so, then the odds are pretty good. Physicist and risk analyst Stephen D. Unwin used Bayesian analysis in his book The Probability of God to conclude that there is a 67% chance that God exists.  

Another issue would be can there be other types of life forms that are not carbon based.  Scientists have been unable to create life from non-life assuming carbon life forms.  There are at least 10 chemical processes that are considered miracle level just to get a lifeform that could replicate itself.  If there can only be carbon life forms, then there are probably no other carbon life forms in the universe given the statistical odds, assuming other worlds similar to ours.  The Fermi paradox suggests that if aliens exist, then some life form who had billions of years of a head start on us, would have arrived here by now and the fact that there are no aliens suggest there never were any aliens.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Real Life - Not Religious Fantasy

@just_sayin
Mark Twain:  Faith is believing what you know ain't so.

Your faith is misguided.

Factfinder

Unless a species figures out how to travel faster then the speed of light, significantly faster; we will never know. Either we or they would have to figure that out before we'd be able to reach other solar systems in other galaxies to know. The expansion rate of the universe is faster than the speed of light.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

That's spot on considering The observable universe is approximately 93 billion light-years in diameter, that's only the observable part ....truly staggering.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

What do you mean by 'extraterrestrial'?  Would that include God, angels or demons?

I don't think the OP was talking about entities based on. fantasy .


  If so, then the odds are pretty good.

LOL


 Physicist and risk analyst Stephen D. Unwin used Bayesian analysis in his book The Probability of God to conclude that there is a 67% chance that God exists.  

Actually the result according to Bayes Theorem is 10,000 to 1 , converted to a decimal the posterior probability of a god is thus 0.9999

Maybe you could ask Unwin what wines he prefers or clothing so we can all follow suit , because obviously he's the man that knows.

Another issue would be can there be other types of life forms that are not carbon based.  Scientists have been unable to create life from non-life assuming carbon life forms

Consider it chemistry,   the how for now is unknown appealing to magic doesn't work as there's zero evidence to support a supernatural explanation , everything points to a natural explanation.

.  There are at least 10 chemical processes that are considered miracle level just to get a lifeform that could replicate itself
 
Nonsense , Answers in Genesis is not a valid source , no credible scientist seriously uses the term "miracle" 

.  If there can only be carbon life forms, then there are probably no other carbon life forms in the universe given the statistical odds, assuming other worlds similar to ours.  The Fermi paradox suggests that if aliens exist, then some life form who had billions of years of a head start on us, would have arrived here by now and the fact that there are no aliens suggest there never were any aliens.


Pity you wouldn't use the same logic when talking about your god , how do you know Aliens never came here? How do you know they are not here now ? How do you know what to look for? The list goes on and on , 


You trying to hold forth on science is similar to Stalin advising people on best soft furnishings for a sitting room.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ;  There is no need for "extraterrestrial" life as humanity is a temporary creation for cause and our temporary Universe and Earth as a battleground for eschatological purposes...all three will be consumed by fire. The Realm of Time is temporary and its purpose is near fruition.

The brief encounters with unexplained phenomena is simply a brief interaction between the Physical Realm and the infinitely superior Spiritual Realm that is not governed by the Laws of Physics. Our Creator is Spirit, His Kingdom is NOT of this temporary World as the spirit that indwells us is NOT of this temporary World but will return home to the Spiritual Realm within an atomic-second of our last exhalation (2 Corinthians 5:8; Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Jesus said,

 

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

What do you mean by 'extraterrestrial'?  Would that include God, angels or demons?

I don't think the OP was talking about entities based on. fantasy .


  If so, then the odds are pretty good.

LOL


 Physicist and risk analyst Stephen D. Unwin used Bayesian analysis in his book The Probability of God to conclude that there is a 67% chance that God exists.  

Actually the result according to Bayes Theorem is 10,000 to 1 , converted to a decimal the posterior probability of a god is thus 0.9999

Maybe you could ask Unwin what wines he prefers or clothing so we can all follow suit , because obviously he's the man that knows.

Another issue would be can there be other types of life forms that are not carbon based.  Scientists have been unable to create life from non-life assuming carbon life forms

Consider it chemistry,   the how for now is unknown appealing to magic doesn't work as there's zero evidence to support a supernatural explanation , everything points to a natural explanation.

.  There are at least 10 chemical processes that are considered miracle level just to get a lifeform that could replicate itself
 
Nonsense , Answers in Genesis is not a valid source , no credible scientist seriously uses the term "miracle" 

.  If there can only be carbon life forms, then there are probably no other carbon life forms in the universe given the statistical odds, assuming other worlds similar to ours.  The Fermi paradox suggests that if aliens exist, then some life form who had billions of years of a head start on us, would have arrived here by now and the fact that there are no aliens suggest there never were any aliens.


Pity you wouldn't use the same logic when talking about your god , how do you know Aliens never came here? How do you know they are not here now ? How do you know what to look for? The list goes on and on , 


You trying to hold forth on science is similar to Stalin advising people on best soft furnishings for a sitting room.

I have no idea what your "Bayes Theorem is 10,000 to 1" refers to.  It is not Unwin's calculation.  As I stated, in his book, he calculated the likelihood that God exists at 67%.  Further, mathematician Gödel came up with an ontological proof that God exists.  I only mention them to show that logical people conclude God exists.  

Answers in Genesis, as I understand it, is a young earth site.  While, I believe God does miracles and could have given the appearance of great age to the universe, I have not made those arguments.  I know the nuance of this will be lost on you, but I haven't even made an anti-evolution argument.  God could have used evolution.  What I have observed is that abiogenesis is chemically improbable.  This isn't the conclusion of Ken Ham, but the claim of atheists, Barrow and Tipler, as expressed in their book, the Anthropic Principle.  They lay out ten steps that a non-theistic evolutionary process would need to have gone through in order to bring about modern man. Their calculations suggest that each of these steps were so improbable that even before it could ever possibly occur our sun would have ceased to exist.

1) The development of the DNA-based genetic code.

2) The invention of aerobic respiration.

3) The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid is unique seme which evolved in bacteria and remained unmodified in all eukaryotes.

4) The origin of autotropic photosynthesis (oxygenic photosynthesis).

5) The origin of mitochondria: these are the bodies in the cytoplasm of eukaryotes wherein the energy molecule ATP is synthesized.

6) The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex; such an event was essential to the evolution of the reproductive system of eukaryotes and of nerve cells.

7) The evolution of an eye precursor.

8) The development of an endoskeleton.

9) The development of chordates.

10) The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage.

You said 'how do you know Aliens never came here? How do you know they are not here now ? How do you know what to look for?'  It seems that if aliens had made the trip here, you wouldn't need to ask those questions.  That's the premise of the Fermi paradox.  

You sure are giving off little @Dee energy.    Guy would just deny evidence of miracles right and left.  I'd show evidence of someone having their leg amputated and then 2 years later the leg grows back over night, along with doctor's records, eye witness accounts given under oath, and he would be like 'that ain't a miracle'.  I'd post video of a woman who had been paralyzed for almost 20 years, get up out of her wheel chair and walk after being prayed for and he'd say 'that ain't evidence for a miracle, where are her medical records?'  Then I'd post evidence of a woman who couldn't walk, was blind and had several major organs that were not functioning properly - who was on her death bed, and after being prayed for, got up and walked, could see, and all her organs regained functionality.  I provided eye witness testimony, peer reviewed case studies, medical attestation and records from no less than 4 doctor's from the Mayo Clinic, and you guessed it, he said 'that ain't evidence of a miracle'.  

You remind me a lot of little @Dee.  I would provide documentation, facts, video, news reports, video, and medical records, and he never gave any supporting evidence for his claims.  In fact, your argument reminds me of what little @Dee's boyfriend said about his manhood when he left him - 'there isn't anything there.  It just doesn't measure up.'

Joeseph

@just_sayin


I have no idea what your "Bayes Theorem is 10,000 to 1" refers to. It is not Unwin's calculation.


Obviously not which is no  surprise , why would I or anyone give a flying f-ck what Unwin says.


 As I stated, in his book, he calculated the likelihood that God exists at 67%. Further, mathematician Gödel came up with an ontological proof that God exists. I only mention them to show that logical people conclude God exists.  


Fermis conclusion is not " logical " by any stretch you would know this if your research wasn't based on what Fermi said in a casual  conversation in  1950 .

Godels " god proof " is nonsense its not a proof of any god let alone the Abrahamic one of course most logical humans know this which rules you out.

It must infuriate you that not one person has come up with one thing to prove your god.

Answers in Genesis, as I understand it, is a young earth site. While, I believe God does miracles and could have given the appearance of great age to the universe, I have not made those arguments. I know the nuance of this will be lost on you, but I haven't even made an anti-evolution argument. God could have used evolution. What I have observed is that abiogenesis is chemically improbable. This isn't the conclusion of Ken Ham, but the claim of atheists, Barrow and Tipler, as expressed in their book, the Anthropic Principle. They lay out ten steps that a non-theistic evolutionary process would need to have gone through in order to bring about modern man. Their calculations suggest that each of these steps were so improbable that even before it could ever possibly occur our sun would have ceased to exist.

1) The development of the DNA-based genetic code.

2) The invention of aerobic respiration.

3) The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid is unique seme which evolved in bacteria and remained unmodified in all eukaryotes.

4) The origin of autotropic photosynthesis (oxygenic photosynthesis).

5) The origin of mitochondria: these are the bodies in the cytoplasm of eukaryotes wherein the energy molecule ATP is synthesized.

6) The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex; such an event was essential to the evolution of the reproductive system of eukaryotes and of nerve cells.

7) The evolution of an eye precursor.

8) The development of an endoskeleton.

9) The development of chordates.

10) The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage.


Take your arguments up with Answers in Genesis , what you have concluded is irrelevant,  any peer reviwed papers to back your " theory " up?



I'm not remotely interested in your rambling monologues regarding  Evolution, bore someone else to death.

said 'how do you know Aliens never came here? How do you know they are not here now ? How do you know what to look for?' It seems that if aliens had made the trip here, you wouldn't need to ask those questions. That's the premise of the Fermi paradox.  


Yet I am asking  and you or Fermi cannot answer.

You sure are giving off little @Dee energy.

Now , now you're angry with god so I will let that go me being the bigger man in every way.

 Guy would just deny evidence of miracles right and left. I'd show evidence of someone having their leg amputated and then 2 years later the leg grows back over night, along with doctor's records, eye witness accounts given under oath, and he would be like 'that ain't a miracle'.

Anecdotal evidence is not convincing less so when a jerk wearing god goggles is citing it.


 I'd post video of a woman who had been paralyzed for almost 20 years, get up out of her wheel chair and walk after being prayed for and he'd say 'that ain't evidence for a miracle, where are her medical records?'


Exactly the devious cow cannot post up her medical records whys that?

 Then I'd post evidence of a woman who couldn't walk, was blind and had several major organs that were not functioning properly - who was on her death bed, and after being prayed for, got up and walked, could see, and all her organs regained functionality.

She probably ran the marathon in the Olympics also , no medical records ? X rays before and after and testimonies from scientists proclaiming it was a miracle? None right?

 I provided eye witness testimony, peer reviewed case studies, medical attestation and records from no less than 4 doctor's from the Mayo Clinic, and you guessed it, he said 'that ain't evidence of a miracle'.  

If it was the case where are the credible non christian  Scientists , doctors affirming this? What's that ? Oh there's none?

You said 200 million prayers are answered every year from penticostals alone and that the best you have , why did god answer 200 million prayers last year but not yours?

You remind me a lot of little @Dee. I would provide documentation, facts, video, news reports, video, and medical records, and he never gave any supporting evidence for his claims.

But I've made no claims that's on you and in your in a  fury so you lash out because god answered 20o million prayers from your cult you claimed ( without proof)  lasy year alone but ignored yours , that sucks 1 prayer refused in 200 million..........ah well, probably working in mysterious ways again ........




 In fact, your argument reminds me of what little @Dee's boyfriend said about his manhood when he left him - 'there isn't anything there. It just doesn't measure up.'

Ahh you poor child resorting to size jokes your dad would beaming with pride at you........ not , this   all because you're furious at god for snubbing your prayers but you have my forgiveness and pity  ,  maybe try Allah next time , worth a shot what do ya think?

MayCaesar

As I see it, to make a coherent argument, a somewhat reliable prior is needed - and we just do not have one. I do not think it makes sense to talk about likelihood of something the prerequisites of which we do not understand. There is a wide spectrum of possibilities - from life being so extremely rare that in 99.999999999% of "possible Universes" it never occurs at all, to life existing virtually everywhere, even in empty space (in a form that we do not recognize as life yet) - and our understanding of astrobiology is too primitive to even begin to assess the probabilities of those possibilities.

It is common for people to think that extraterrestrial life is extremely likely, given that the only planet we have thoroughly explored has a large diversity of life forms, and that the Universe is incredibly big. This, however, is an error based on our faulty intuition: it is infamously reliable when it comes to statistics. Think about this: for us to have consciousness at all, we must be alive - so "we are alive" is where we start. The probability of us being alive in an abstract Universe is not at all constrained: it can be 100%, or it can be 0.0000000000000001% - whichever the case, we would necessarily end up in a Universe that has life. In other words, the fact that there is life on Earth has absolutely 0 implications on the likelihood of life on a randomly chosen planet in a randomly chosen Universe.

Let me give you an analogy. Suppose we live in 330 BC. We know that Alexander the Great exists, and we have a very scarce knowledge of human history, of physics, of the Universe. Now I make the following argument: "Since Alexander the Great exists right now, what are the odds that another Alexander the Great has never existed? There has to have been millions of Alexanders the Greats before: the probability of us coexisting with the only Alexander the Great in human history is essentially zero!" You can see the fallacy here, right?

Now, if I were to choose a hypothesis in this incredible vacuum of knowledge, I would say that extraterrestrial intelligent life should be quite common. Life on Earth seems to abide by regular laws of physics and chemistry, and there is no reason that, at least, among trillions of planets quite similar to Earth there should not be another similar evolutionary path happening frequently. The scenario in which intelligent life on Earth is a product of a large number of extremely unlikely events does not seem like a reasonable starting point to me, as hinging any theory on extremely unlikely events is a dangerous slippery slope.

This, however, is an epistemological technicality. I realize that my hypothesis may very well be wrong. Heck, we do not even know whether our Universe is finite or not... Perhaps the Universe has existed forever, expanding and contracting repeatedly (no observations so far have contradicted this possibility), and there has always been sentient species that flew around the Universe, dropping seeds of life here and there and letting it evolve and then die out - there was no "origin of life" as such. Far-fetched, sure, but consider an infinity of other similar possibilities, and it does not sound that crazy any more.

To me personally the most interesting question is possibility of life in incredibly extreme and hostile (from our perspective) environments. I once took on a research project in which I considered possibility of life emerging inside an active volcano: I wanted to see how far one can push it before it is absolutely clear that life there in any meaningful sense appears impossible to emerge. Did not make much progress, unfortunately. But it is interesting to speculate that if life like this was to exist and become intelligent, what it would look like and whether we could interact with it in a meaningful way.

just_sayin

@Joeseph
Ahh you poor child resorting to size jokes all because you're furious at god for snubbing your prayers , maybe try Allah next time?

LOL.  I made fun of the size of your evidence, not your member.  The only one I've made fun of their package was little @Dee.  While you have little @Dee's energy, you aren't him.  Right?  So, don't take it so personally.  

Fermis conclusion is not " logical " by any stretch you would know this if your research wasn't based on what Fermi said in 1950 .

Huh, odd that SETI thought the observation of the Nobel prize winner was significant.  Here's their primer page on it.  From the SETI page:

Fermi grasped that any civilization with a modest amount of rocket technology and an immodest amount of imperial incentive could rapidly colonize the entire Galaxy. Within a few tens of millions of years, every star system could be brought under the wing of empire. Tens of millions of years may sound like a long project, but in fact it’s quite short compared to the age of the Galaxy, which is roughly a thousand times more.
So what Fermi immediately recognized was that the aliens have had more than enough time to pepper the Galaxy with their presence. But looking around, we don’t see any clear indication that they’re out and about. We don’t see any obvious evidence of a galactic empire or a United Federation of Planets.
This prompted Fermi to ask what was (to him) an obvious question: “where is everybody?”  In a galaxy assumed to be filled with clever beings, why don’t we see any? This dissonance is known as the Fermi Paradox.
A lot of folks have given this a lot of thought. The first thing they note is that the Fermi Paradox is a remarkably strong argument. You can quibble about the speed of alien spacecraft, whether it’s 1% the speed of light or 10% the speed of light. It doesn’t matter. You can argue about how long it would take for a new star colony to spawn colonies of its own. It still doesn’t matter. Any halfway reasonable assumptions about how fast colonization could take place still end up with time scales that are enormously shorter than the age of the Galaxy. It’s like discussing whether Spanish ships of the 16th century could heave along at two knots or twenty. Either way they could speedily colonize the Americas.

Notice that I was just able to whip out that evidence, with no problem, while others haven't measured up in this debate.  just sayin

You asked about miracles with medical Evidence, here are a few:

Marylon Ford: 

https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167362/#Comment_167362

Sean George  (50 pages of medical Evidence) : 

 https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/my-story/

And the documented evidence here:
https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/

Barbara Cummisky Snyder is instantly healed of MS and blindness -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAXM2W-OHQE

https://1c15.co.uk/barbara-snyder-barbara-cummiskey-snyder-healed-from-multiple-sclerosis/

Scott Kolbaba, Physician's Untold Stories: Miraculous Experiences  Doctors are Hesitant to Share with their Patients, or Anyone! (North Charleston, SC: CreateSpace, 2016) (image of x-ray on page 121)

https://www.scribd.com/document/534776708/Chicago-Tribune-Mon-Sep-26-1983-clipping

http://nebula.wsimg.com/26f08202c2c1c87f2521b6bf967dcdaf?AccessKeyId=B72A5E64E6835B2F4367&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1983/december-16/one-who-took-up-her-bed-and-walked.html

https://podtail.com/en/podcast/life-money-and-hope-with-chris-brown/episode-46-miracles-still-happen/

https://www.pcabookstore.com/samples/15426.pdf

Her surgeon, Dr Harold P Adolph tells Barbara Cummiskey's story in his book (with medical records): 

Today's Decisions Tomorrow's Destiny

Miracle of Calanda

https://digilander.libero.it/rexur/miracol/inglese/saragozza.htm

https://biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com/2022/03/12/interview-with-vittorio-messori-concerning-the-miraculous-healing-of-miguel-juan-pellicer-severed-leg/

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=ucm.5325008951&view=1up&seq=136

Factfinder

@Joeseph

This Dee person must of really done a number on Just_sayin as he still tags him even though he's banned, wow. 

Joeseph

@just_sayin


PRAYER WORKS , MIRACLES HAPPEN .......only if  you're one of the relatively wealthy American penticostals ( 200 million payers answered lat year) , oh and best not be black and African ......

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

LETS TEST JUST LYINS MIRACLE CLAIMS USING HIS OWN CRITERIA FOR MEASURING SUCH.

Just lyin started 2 weeks ago that yearly god answers 200 million prayers from pentecostals alone yearly yet immediately went into total silence when asked to produce what must be tons of evidence for this extraordinary claim., his best response so far is reliant on his favourite claim The " Miracle" of Calanda from the 1600"s , where are  the millions of miracles he claimed from the 200 million recorded from the compolsory must speak in tounges Penticostals?

The answer zero verifiable claims.

Finally the ultimate test Just Lyin said his  father the poor man  ( a man of god) suffered  for 6 months yet his Miracle/ prayer answering god who set new records (200 million last year alone)  let a servant of God suffer torments  for six months but cures almost every other penticostal who asks.

You cannot have it both ways as in every time something positive happens " it's a miracle" if it doesn't " god works in mysterious ways " , how childish is that?

Regards the Fermi Paradox Fermi made one remark at a lunch regards aliens as in "  where are they " he said no more and never wrote a paper or article on the topic he didn't think it important.

Your obsession to appealing to cherry picked authorities  is constantly amusing.


Your obsession with Dee is hilarious and really telling as you mention him in every post proving he really nailed a job on you.

Being a piss poor debater when hammered you start talking about sizes ...LOL 


OK let's play,  FF , May and myself have debunked these fantasies several times and yet you still wash , rinse,  repeat.

I will just take two and repeat what I said before.......

Miracle of Calanda debunked 

Regrowing a missing leg is impossible (in mammals anyway) and regrowing one overnight violates the laws of physics. So, the fundamental laws of reality were broken, and something impossible happened (a man regrew a leg), and evidence for this is the testimony of some illiterate farmhand from the 1600's. Well, I'm convinced, there is just no other possible explanation

Delia Knoxx con  exposed .....again 

Foxy Knoxxy mentions she suffered a head injury, not a spinal cord injury (as widely publicized). She never mentions she suffered from irreversible paralysis below the waist and was unable to regain the ability to walk. She repeatedly mentions needing psychological treatment but no mention of physical therapy, which is consistent with a head injury but not consistent with irreversible paralysis below the waist. She could not speak or grip things correctly, which is consistent with a head injury but not necessarily consistent with irreversible paralysis below the waist. She twice mentions being healed from a brain tumor. Is is possible that this brain tumor (which apparently went into remission prior to the faith healing) was preventing her brain from communicating with her legs properly? She claims her report said, "This patient is to seek further psychological treatment due to being excessively happy." Having been around the psychology and counseling fields for many years, I don't personally know any professional therapist who would think excessive happiness was a problem, but the idea that she required further psychological treatment is consistent with a head injury (and not consistent with irreversible paralysis below the waist). She explicitly states, "Everything I would do, they would attribute it to my head injury." Does that include her perceived inability to walk?  I  don't personally know any professional psychologist or counselor who would think (and write down) a patient's expression of worship as "abnormal behavior," particularly since professionals know that religious faith is often a useful coping mechanism. Why does the reenactment show people trying to get her to move her legs if it were not possible? Why won't she talk about what her doctors/therapists think happened and why won't she go into detail about her medical condition?

Conclusion Knoxx is a compulsive fantacist and quiet clearly  mentally unwell,. 

Your other claims are equally ridiculous your whole argument being mechanism unknown, therefore it must be God.

It's always the same, and always we eventually find an answer based in the physical, not the supernatural.

"We don't know, so it MUST BE GOD", is a weak and outdated response; It is an excuse to stop looking for real answers.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Remarkable he mentions him at least 4 times a day , Dee really nailed a job on that jerk

Factfinder

@just_sayin

I've noticed you bombed another thread. You are trying to claim science informs you your faith is true but you can't have it both ways. If you know god is true because science points to it, then it's not faith. If you claim the Christian faith then it's not evidential knowledge as nothing in science points to any god that is known. Appealing to ignorance in a body of evidence or knowledge and calling it god or assuming god did it, is just childish and unconvincing which reveals weakness in your faith. Because if god were true and you correct, you would have convinced us by now according to your god...

Luke 21:15:   For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

All three paths you've chosen to argue your position contain flaws in logic which are easily resisted so that means god isn't real or it has rejected you. Something to think about.

elijah44

Extremely likely, but we will never be able to contact them.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

@elijah44

For sure, if post creation evolution adheres to a set of Universal physical Laws, then it is reasonable to suggest that the conditions necessary for the evolution of similarly functioning organic structures to ourselves, probably occur throughout the universe.

Though in terms of contact, we tend to think short term relative to current knowledge.

We have a billion years or so to perfect interstellar travel and escape this collapsing solar system, and similar sets of conditions would apply elsewhere. There would then be a universal lifetime of potential encounters.

Of course this is assuming that we don't up this Planet with our stupidity in the meantime.

And then there is A.I. to consider.

A.I. is currently in it's infancy.

Do not underestimate it's potential.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Would that include God, angels or demons?

Of coarse it doesn’t. Extra terrestrial means any life outside of the earth. So how could that possibly include God Angels and demons since they only exist in the sick minds of deluded nits here on earth 

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;Would that include God, angels or demons?

Of coarse it doesn’t. Extra terrestrial means any life outside of the earth. So how could that possibly include God Angels and demons since they only exist in the sick minds of deluded nits here on earth 

Again, I reference the argument of the the Nobel prize winner, Fermi.  The Fermi paradox suggests that if aliens exist, then some life form who had billions of years of a head start on us, would have arrived here by now and the fact that there are no aliens suggest there never were any aliens.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; There is absolutely ZERO reason for Elohim to have created extra-terrestrial life. We are created for cause with temporal causation and this inferior Realm of Time will be extinguished.

iamzombie

@JulesKorngold ;

The US government released previously classified UFO reports. What do you mean how likely? Lol

jack

JulesKorngold said:

I'd say 82%.

Hello Jules...

To my way of thinking, since there are trillions, and trillions, and even more trillions of habitable planets right here in our galaxy, and when you add in the trillions, and trillions of galaxies in the universe, there's a pretty good chance that there's intelligent life out there..

excon

MayCaesar

@Fredsnephew

It is possible that emergence of life requires surpassing a very high barrier, making it even in ideal conditions on a given planet extremely improbable. Assuming the sequence of chemical processes required for that consists of multiple steps each in itself having a low probability, there could be 10^10 Earth-like planets in the Universe, yet only on several of them life has ever emerged.

There are processes behaving like that that we have studied thoroughly. One of them is the creation of the heaviest elements such as Uranium. As far as we know, they can only be created via so-called R-process ("rapid neutron capture process") wherein a nuclei must capture a few neutrons in a row before experiencing a single beta-decay, turning one of the neutrons into a proton and terminating the process. Now, in most conditions, even inside collapsing cores of supernovae with extremely high density of neutrons, the average time it takes for a nuclei to capture one neutron significantly exceeds the average time it takes for a beta-decay to occur - so even given outlandishly large numbers of neutrons there, virtually no Uranium will be produced. However, in very rare situations such as collision of two incredibly dense neutron stars, the density of neutrons becomes high enough that small amounts of Uranium will statistically be produced, despite each individual nuclei becoming a Uranium nucleus with negligibly small probability. An extremely unlikely event will occur a large number of times when the experiment is run 10^50 times in a row or however many.

Now, consider the possibility of extremely low odds of life emerging on a particular Earth-like planet - say, 1 in 10^20. If there are only 10^10 such planets in the Universe, then the probability of life emerging even on one of them is on the order of 0.00000001%. In that case we would not expect life to emerge anywhere else in the Universe - although it certainly had to emerge somewhere (in our case, on Earth) for us to even be able to talk about it.

It is also possible that emergence of life is extremely likely in a wide range of conditions, but prolonged survival and evolution might be barred by a lot of factors. Once life becomes somewhat macroscopic, it will be vulnerable to external dangers such as lightning storms, radiation, earthquakes, various chemical elements... There are countless substances that even in tiny amounts, if spread around the Earth's atmosphere somewhat evenly, would kill off all macroscopic life within hours. Take away Jupiter's magnetic shield, allowing a large flux of cosmic particles into Earth's atmosphere and subsequent atomic reactions with the air particles - and it is game over for all existing animals. Perhaps it is very rare for a planet to be as "calm" as Earth, yet have such an abundance of elements across the entire table. Then we might have a bizarre Universe in which microscopic bacteria-like life is very widespread and can even be found on some asteroids or comets - but anything larger than a fly is a rarity to find which one would have to sweep through multiple galaxies.

Bogan

I think what Joseph is trying to say with this picture is, "Could all of you white people we hate please feed us so that we can continue to breed like flies, invade your countries, and rob, rape and kill you?"

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: So?

@iamzombie
What do UFOs prove?

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Factfinder The Fermi paradox suggests that if aliens exist, then some life form who had billions of years of a head start on us, would have arrived here by now and the fact that there are no aliens suggest there never were any aliens.

Well I would think that that is a very loose conclusion by Fermi. 

To start with his assumption that an other planet could be billions of years a head of us doesnt ring true because the universe is about 13.5 billion years old and life started here farely early on in the peace at around 11 billion years ago. And we know that the Earth didnt settle and cool down until about 11 billion years ago and life started to form soon after that. So therefore an other alien planet would be subject to the same conditions given that the big bang happened pretty much suddenly a cross the universe.

So then we look at the reverse situation. Aliens on a planet billions of light years a way would be saying the same thing. Like derr if there was life on an other planet they would have visited us by now.

So the thing is that Fermi didnt take in to account that say a super advanced alien race lived on a planet 15 billion light years a way then at the best if they travelled at any where near the speed of light and developed there technology say 3 billion years after the big bang then its going to take at least an other 2.5 billion years to get here.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;I think what Joseph is trying to say with this picture is, "Could all of you white people we hate please feed us so that we can continue to breed like flies, invade your countries, and rob, rape and kill you?"

And I'm sure that if some one with half a brain sees a bar of chocolate candy he would make some sort of sicko racist comment about it.

Barnardot

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;There is no need for "extraterrestrial" life as humanity is a temporary creation for cause and our temporary Universe and Earth as a battleground for eschatological purposes...all three will be consumed by fire. The Realm of Time is temporary and its purpose is near fruition.

Okay sure. But if God is smart then he would know not to put all of his eggs in to one basket and he would have surely knocked up a few more planets with life a round the universe.

Because remember he gave us earth people free will so God would know that Earth would be a bit of a loose cannon and any thing could happen. So may be he created an other planet where the aliens had no free will and did every thing to plan. Then God could see which bunch of life turned out best and select that lot to go to Heaven. 

That is why I reckon that all earthlings havent got a chance at all because the hole race is quickly going towards self destruction. So all God needs to do is say. Like derr that one didnt work so let's have a look at those bastards on Tralfamadore and see if there okay to come up here.

Barnardot

@iamzombie ;The US government released previously classified UFO reports. What do you mean how likely? Lol

Well that proves it all conclusively then that there are aliens with out a doubt. Jesus I forgot about that fact that the government hid all that conclusive evidence about UFOs landing in the dessert and in the middle of corn fields and those tiny green bastards abducted people. Like the government hid all the photos and videos and all the biological specimens of those bulging heads. And then theres all those impounded flying sorcers that they locked up in air plane hangers. And then the surviving aliens were put in under ground tunnels under neath mountains.

Bogan

Isn't it funny how every time Barnadot starts contributing to a topic, everybody gives up and the topic dies?    

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

@iamzombie

A classified UFO report.

Is a report of a sighting of an unidentified object, that was flying.

And therefore classified under the heading of Unidentified Flying Object. 


The word unidentified should lead one to conclude that such reported sightings are not proof of extra-terrestrial lifeforms.

But some people let their imaginations run wild.

Nothing wrong with that.

Barnardot

@Fredsnephew @Bogan ;But some people let their imaginations run wild. Nothing wrong with that.

And theres certainly nothing right about it either. Just think of all the goziilions of dollars the government spent just to satisfy those vaselating conspiracy nit heads and even then a lot of them wont except the findings any way. 

And what about the red necks and there revolting imaginations thinking that every one should bash up blacks and gays and shoot animals willy nilly then call it road kill. How much does it cost for law enforcement to keep an eye on them?

And what about all those religious nits who have the wildest imaginations of all. Thers a famous case where a guy called Saylor killed his hole family and him self simply because he couldn't or wouldnt stop the accelerator from sticking. So the car smacked in to the end of the freeway at 100mph just after he said oh well lets just pray to God. He will save us. It was all recorded by 911 and they just were dum founded at the idiocy of this guy. So how much pain and grief and money and suffering did that religious nit cause just because he let his Goddist imagination run wild. Just look up the case and you'll be gob smacked.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;Isn't it funny how every time Barnadot starts contributing to a topic, everybody gives up and the topic dies?    

Isn’t it funny how some one with half a brain like Bogan all ways gets things wrong.

maxx

considering the size of the universe, very likely. we are so small to the universe, you may assume we do not even exist in comparison. Then there is the speed of life; a race far away, if capable of viewing us, would see earth as it is in the age of the dinosaurs. Even farther away, earth would be in its infancy; and the reverse is also true. Everything we see, is not in actual time, but long ago in the past. @JulesKorngold

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

@Barnardot

Well, I was referring specifically to UFO "nits" who let their imaginations run wild.

I see no harm in that.

I think that you were unnecessarily conflating nits and nuts.

You let your imagination run a bit wild, perhaps.

No harm in that.

Barnardot

@Fredsnephew ;Well, I was referring specifically to UFO "nits" who let their imaginations run wild.I see no harm in that.

And so was I spacifically referring to UFO nits and if I expand a bit on what I said for your edification I was pointing out the point that the US government spent a hole heap of money and I am talking literary billions of dollars here. They spent that money because all those conspiracy nits could not stop there brains spinning a round in there nit ridden heads. And thats where the harm is. It was a total waist of money that just confirmed what any one in there right mind could work out or knew any way.

So you tell me any way why you reckon there is no harm in pandering to conspiracy nits and religious nits? And did you read into that case I quoted? 

Thats perfectly illustrates how a nit killed his hole family just because he couldn't hold his shite together and let his imagination run wild. Now that is one heck of a lot of harm that that nit caused.

MayCaesar

One fascinating possibility is that life does not originate on planets, but originated a very long time ago and was dispersed across the Universe by comets and other rogue objects. Perhaps soon after the Big Bang, when the conditions in the Universe were much more chaotic and extremely large stars would form, briefly exist and collide against each other or blow up on their own - similar to how the heaviest elements in the Universe require extremely high matter density and temperature to form, the first self-replicating structures were formed. Now, the overwhelming majority of those structures would be extremely short-lived given that the conditions almost everywhere in the Universe are hazardous - but some would embed themselves deep in the crust of small solid bodies, freeze and stay there for billions upon billions of years - until the body would smash into a planet or a satellite with favorable conditions, unfreeze and continue self-replicating and evolving.

Even in this interesting case though we would not necessarily expect any alien civilization to have the capability to reach our planet. It is possible that up until the last couple of billions of years the conditions everywhere in the Universe were too harsh for complex life to emerge: perhaps the radiation was higher than required, or stars were closer to each other than they are now and the stellar systems were not as stable and protected from external hazards. People like to say that it would only take a species like us to appear a few centuries before us for their technological capabilities to completely blow us out of the water - but even if such species emerged a billion years ago, but in a different galaxy, then it is possible that the trip here simply is not justified economically from their perspective. Just like us sending someone to Andromeda would make little sense even if we could travel close to the speed of light, since even then it would take us at least 5 million years to hear back from the travelers - few companies would invest into a project like this and expect a payoff millions of years down the road.

Even if highly advanced species existed next door, in the Alpha Centauri system, they may have hit some kind of a technological limit a few centuries past our level of development. We are already pushing the limits of silicon, and while there is hope that far better materials will be developed in the future, the technology naturally becomes more unstable. A thermonuclear reactor, for instance, would present a serious hazard, and should something go wrong there, it could easily level a few cities. Perhaps the most developed civilizations out there are not that much more developed than us. Recall that just a few decades ago we believed that soon everyone would have a flying car and a personal robot more capable in all respects than a human, yet we are as far away from having that as we were then. Perhaps even affordable flying cars are a practical impossibility.

The takeaway for me from these and other musings is that there are too many possibilities and we know too little to speculate about the probability of intelligent life existing close to us. The range of possibilities is from "Life existed everywhere since the Big Bang and we are simply blind to it due to our anthropocentric biases" to "Life has only ever existed on Earth and was on the verge of extinction for 99.9999% of the time", and there is too little data to strongly prefer one possibility over all the other ones.