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consciousness

Debate Information

first I am not talking about panpsychism. so do not bring it up, for it is not part of my debate. Now science really do not know where consciousness resides in the brain. All they say it is based upon perceptions, and neurons firing giving us awareness. This theory i am discussing, is that what we deem consciousness, is just a form of natural energy that; like time; fills the universe everywhere at once. It does not flow, but simply expands as the universe expands; and it permeates all physical matter giving awareness and what we call consciousness to those with a brain that can receive it; much like a radio receiver.  This energy however is in all matter, including rocks and trees, plants, and so on, yet this type of matter in not capable of using this energy for they lack a brain or receiver to do so. For instance, radio signals may be absorbed by a rock, but can not use it. So this energy, is just a natural force of energy that at a fundamental level, fills the universe. any feed back?
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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    If it is some substance that can interact with human brains, then it certainly should interact with some other objects ("brain-like") as well. It seems extremely unlikely to me that it would have been left undetected to this point if this was the case. Unless the interaction is extremely weak - but in that case our consciousness would be highly unstable.

    I am more inclined to think that consciousness is not a real physical phenomenon, but just conceptualization of reality by our brains. At the most fundamental level nothing really happens aside from neurons firing repeatedly, and the living being's brain generates a convenient "visualization" of that process. This still leaves unanswered the question of why exactly the visualization is what it is: why do I see "red" as "red" and "blue" as "blue" and not vice-versa. But, perhaps, that question does not make sense and is like asking, "Why do I think of a circle as a circle?" Because, well, it is a circle.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 9
    i am not sure what you mean by other brain like things.  my elaboration here is : say this energy is like the water in the ocean, and the matter is everything in the ocean. if the matter is capable of having a receiver such as a brain, or even cells, perhaps, then they can use this energy. or take gravity. it fills the universe but is only active within matter. yes, once this energy(consciousness) interacts with life forms; then the process of our neurons and visualization and perceptions begin in a way in where what we call consciousness begins. Or take electricity. all our appliances use it to operate; yet only if it has access to it. no, we can not detect this force, just like we really can not detect time. The thing here is, all the processes of our brains such as our perceptions, our awareness, our neurons firing to produce our reasoning, is "turned" on by this force interacting with matter. True, this is only a theory, however, it does have reasoning behind it. for instance, assuming the brain as a type of organic computer, it still requires external power to actually operate. all of our perceptions is based upon external stimuli.  we rely on our perceptions to "gather" information. everything about our brains is based upon our external views. Tell me, if you were to create a type of biological brain, would it not need an external way to receive power? @MayCaesar
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1299 Pts   -  
    @maxx
    Maxx,  Your topic reminds me of the work of Nobel prize winner Roger Penrose.  He believes consciousness is linked to quantum mechanics.  His view is not the majority opinion though. Here is an article for you about it though:

    Roger Penrose: "Consciousness must be beyond computable physics"

  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    read it; however, my theory is a bit different; in regards to consciousness is more of a fundamental force of the universe, that formed when "the big bang" was created. In a way both  ideas are similar, for if everything is really quantum, then all forces would be based on it. However, i am discussing it a bit differently where an energy form exists in the universe that permeates all matter. this force or energy is not actually consciousness nor is it conscious; it simply produces , or rather, those capable of using this energy, produces consciousness from it, within their brains. @just_sayin
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1299 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    read it; however, my theory is a bit different; in regards to consciousness is more of a fundamental force of the universe, that formed when "the big bang" was created. In a way both  ideas are similar, for if everything is really quantum, then all forces would be based on it. However, i am discussing it a bit differently where an energy form exists in the universe that permeates all matter. this force or energy is not actually consciousness nor is it conscious; it simply produces , or rather, those capable of using this energy, produces consciousness from it, within their brains. @just_sayin
    I apologize, I didn't realize at the time that the article I pointed you to was behind a pay wall.  A youtube interview is here:  

    How does your theory work from a scientific point of view?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    i am not sure what you mean by other brain like things.  my elaboration here is : say this energy is like the water in the ocean, and the matter is everything in the ocean. if the matter is capable of having a receiver such as a brain, or even cells, perhaps, then they can use this energy. or take gravity. it fills the universe but is only active within matter. yes, once this energy(consciousness) interacts with life forms; then the process of our neurons and visualization and perceptions begin in a way in where what we call consciousness begins. Or take electricity. all our appliances use it to operate; yet only if it has access to it. no, we can not detect this force, just like we really can not detect time. The thing here is, all the processes of our brains such as our perceptions, our awareness, our neurons firing to produce our reasoning, is "turned" on by this force interacting with matter. True, this is only a theory, however, it does have reasoning behind it. for instance, assuming the brain as a type of organic computer, it still requires external power to actually operate. all of our perceptions is based upon external stimuli.  we rely on our perceptions to "gather" information. everything about our brains is based upon our external views. Tell me, if you were to create a type of biological brain, would it not need an external way to receive power? @MayCaesar
    As in your analogy with radio, the matter has to be "tuned" to the consciousness in your model in order to receive it. However, with radio all that happens is the EM waves interacting with the circuit within, and the circuit can be built in many different ways, and the frequency the circuit is tuned to does not have to exactly equal the wavelength - there is a range within which it will work well. Same EM waves interact with every electron they come in contact with, not just with the radio.

    Similarly, if the "conscious energy" interacts with the brain, it has to interact with other things that contain the same matter as the brain. That would be measurable same way as interactions between EM waves and electrons are measurable, and the fact that such interactions have not been found so far is strong evidence against your theory (although it does not completely outrule it).

    To your last question, power is needed to magnify or transform the signal, not to have it in the first place. In the radio, power is needed to convert the processes happening in the circuit into the sound waves that we can hear. In the brain power might be needed to produce consciousness as we see it, but the interactions leading to consciousness in the first place would not require any power to occur.
    just_sayin
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    Conscious is generated by the brain because it emerges from brain activity , the brain to operate requires energy.

    Consciousness falls under Shannon’s Information Theory which relates energy to information. In other words, your brain could not work without a source of energy, but your consciousness is not any form of energy.

  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    this is, after all; but a philosophical theory. However, where is consciousness in the brain? It is not our thoughts; that is a by-product of our consciousness. All our neurons do is fire and stimulate areas of our brain. Chimps neurons fire about the same way ours do, and they have consciousness; so consciousness is not our thoughts. Some may argue that self awareness is, but does a duck have consciousness/ ?When do we become self aware? Not until we develop an age that we can remember ourself; which is why we co not have memories before 3 or 4 years of age. So is it that experiences and memories develop our self awareness? When we are born, we do not yet have sufficient memories or experiences stored in our memory banks to draw on to give us proper perception of our self. Once we have enough stored, we draw on these past memories and experiences and that gives us a point of ego. @MayCaesar ; @Joesph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    consciousness is a product of the organization of energetic activity in the brain. 
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    you said that already. it is like saying that the radio is playing songs because of the electricity it receives. All neurons do is fire electrical impulses  to stimulate activity. When you said product of the brain; it means by-product of the brain; or  you basically stated, consciousness is a by-product of the electrical activity of the brain. That part is easily understood, but the question is, how does it create such consciousness based upon electrical impulses? One can send the same current to a brain at birth, yet there is very little but electrical energy; no actual consciousness as we understand it, can you at least explain your definition of consciousness before we go any farther. @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    can you at least explain your definition of consciousness before we go any farther. @Joeseph

    Electrical and biochemical processes in action.
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    And again,  how does this produce consciousness? And that is not a decentdefinitionof consciousness.  I want what actuallyconsciousnessis, not the action of electricprocessesthat causes it.  @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    And again,  how does this produce consciousness?

    Ask a Neuroscienctist  , no one knows for definite

     And that is not a decentdefinitionof consciousness

    Based on whats known It sure is works for me.


    I want what actuallyconsciousnessis, not the action of electricprocessesthat causes it.  

    Do you? It seems not as usual you want people to agree with what your preffered opinion on the matter might be 
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    The definition is like if I asked you what the song on the radio is, and you reply that it is the power plant and lines in action. If that is as far as your definition of consciousness goes, so be it
     . At least you should have a personal theory. @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    That's a ridiculous analogy , and I told you what it was several times here you go again.........Electrical and biochemical processes in action., that's it no big mystery as far as I'm concerned. 

    Is this the part where you keep saying repeat that again  and again and again ........
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 10
    That is the process behind what consciousness is.  I guess you fail to understand that. I guess all the information your laptop has , is nothing more than the electric al power that starts it up.  So are you  going to stand by the statement, that the electrical system in the brain, IS consciousness, rather than it producing it? @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -   edited July 10
    @maxx

    I understand perfectly I've said it several.time .........Electrical and biochemical processes in action.= consciousness......its pretty obvious really .....

    Do you understand " in action" ? Same as a computer just a machine doing its thing using all the necessary components.
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 10
    Sure. Believe it if you want. Just what sort of actin are you talking  about? Is consciousness our thoughts,  and emotions,  ideas, and morals, and so on, or is consciousness  just electronically proudced patterns?@Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Thank you for  allowing me to belive what is factually correct ?
    Factfinder
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -   edited July 11
    maxx said:
    this is, after all; but a philosophical theory. However, where is consciousness in the brain? It is not our thoughts; that is a by-product of our consciousness. All our neurons do is fire and stimulate areas of our brain. Chimps neurons fire about the same way ours do, and they have consciousness; so consciousness is not our thoughts. Some may argue that self awareness is, but does a duck have consciousness/ ?When do we become self aware? Not until we develop an age that we can remember ourself; which is why we co not have memories before 3 or 4 years of age. So is it that experiences and memories develop our self awareness? When we are born, we do not yet have sufficient memories or experiences stored in our memory banks to draw on to give us proper perception of our self. Once we have enough stored, we draw on these past memories and experiences and that gives us a point of ego. @MayCaesar ; @Joesph
    I think you are asking questions that are so far beyond the limitations of our present knowledge that it is pure science fiction at this point.

    Let me ask you a very simple question that no one has an answer to. Suppose I build a sophisticated artificial intelligence that matches humans in the ability to generally reason, but is made of microchips rather than organic matter. Will it have consciousness?
    Two options are possible:
    1. No. In that case an intelligent being does not have to have consciousness. A good question to ask is: what exactly does consciousness contribute? If we were to magically remove my consciousness, but leave the brain and body otherwise intact - would I somehow become less intelligent? If no, then consciousness in itself does not exist and is merely our interpretation of regular information processing. If yes, then the AI is not the same kind of intelligent being as us, and this example is useless.
    2. Yes. In that case consciousness has nothing to do with the structure of human brain and naturally arises in an intelligent system. In that case, again, it is just a part of intelligence, and it does not exist as an independent entity.
    In either case, the concept of "consciousness" seems to add nothing to the picture scientifically. Philosophically it is a nice concept to use, but it is not a real physical thing.
    FactfinderJoesephjust_sayin
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1528 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    but it is not a real physical thing.


    Well stated. Yet consciousness may not be a physical thing, it is a thing.


    JoesephMayCaesarjust_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 11
    being a biological entity, we seem to be a complete closed circuit, based from our nervous system and our electrical system of our brain. we have no actual external power supply other than what nourishment we feed our cells and sleep that seems to restore our system. what we are missing is the master switch. what turns it on and keeps it on. as to the ai machine; as well as us, I would deem consciousness as input of what we take in, our perceptions, our self awareness. The motor simply running is nothing more than current. It simply enables the power to perform the tasks we have and to develop what we do with our brain. we have a missing link so to speak. we have the current, then we have identity; yet identity and our thoughts are products of consciousness. Identity is part of our personality, not consciousness itself. so yes, we do not have the knowledge.   i remember once, my uncle had an old tandy computer; and of course, there was no internet, so you simply had the current that powered it. absolutely nothing on it; until we gave it instructions and input. so would we consider that once we gave it input{ perhaps what we would call our senses to receive input}  as to having consciousness? It appears the same with humans; at birth our brain has its motor running, we begin to receive input, yet we say we have consciousness, but not the tandy computer. The only difference is that we are biological and have life. consciousness may be a self-induced illusion; the brain playing a trick upon itself. @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -   edited July 11

    There is a pretty essential difference here. A computer requires a continuous external power supply to function, and even an unplugged laptop still relies on the battery. Human body, on the other hand, generates power dynamically by processing carbon accumulated inside. Moreover, different parts of human body can function autonomously even if the central neural system is damaged: for example, there are records of soldiers having their heads blown off by a grenade and still running and shooting for a while because the motor system remained intact for a while. Clearly the running and shooting body has no consciousness, yet it still functions well for a short period of time.

    I simply do not see what consciousness contributes to otherwise an already self-sufficient organism. That is why I am inclined to see it as just a representation of the inputs by the brain, which seems to align with your view as well. I do not think that it is a separate phenomenon.

    I can give you one example of consciousness being effectively absent in me while I can still perform complex tasks. This happens to me a lot when running long ultramarathons. Have you heard of the "runner's high", the state runners sometimes get into where the time just flies and they cannot remember much of their run afterwards? When you run for 10+ hours, weirder things happen. Sometimes I can look at my watch and see that I am 40 miles in; then a "second" later I look again, and I am 43 miles in. What happened in the 3 miles (that would take me half an hour to run) in between? Who knows. I clearly was not conventionally conscious in that time, since I have no memories of that - yet running on a rough terrain is a very complex task no modern robot can perform as consistently as humans can.
    Soldiers on night guard duties have reported the same. Sometimes a couple of hours just "disappears".

    My hypothesis is that consciousness is a way for the brain to interpret complex situations where hard calculations are required. And the more focused you are on a particular calculation task, the more conscious you are at the moment. When having a hard conversation with your boss, you are ultra-conscious, since every word you say can have profound impact on your life.
    On the other hand, if you are just running high in the mountains with nothing else happening, then you do not need to calculate anything and can just rely on your instincts. Perhaps at that time consciousness mostly shuts down: your brain does not need to interpret anything and just rests and regenerates. This might explain why after my morning runs my mind is much sharper than 2-3 hours later: it just took a very good rest and is fully ready to work.

    The only scientist I know who did serious experiments with his own consciousness was Richard Feynman: he tried to understand how sleep and falling asleep works and how it is connected to his consciousness. He did not learn much, but figured that during sleep consciousness either shuts down completely, or takes a different form.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 11
    That is pretty much saying consciousness vanished when we are in a different state of consciousness. I have and can turn on the so called overview defect here on earth, and there is a strong shift in perception.i have been so "high up" in the overview  that it almost floored me. It was bam, the entire environment leaped out to me, every thing was connected, emotions hit like a flood, but still I am sure my consciousness still existed.I think what happens in higher meditation highs, is our brain eaves simply fire in a even sequence. One sees reality slightly differently. However, just like runners high, consciousness is not suspended unless you believe we have to have thoughts to have consciousness. As for the computer idea, regardless, it and humans rely on external input. 
     @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  

    Well, maxx, all of this is just a speculation. The hard facts are that clearly our brain is capable of doing a lot of things without us being explicitly conscious about them: in fact, one could argue that the vast majority of daily tasks we perform completely unconsciously. A question arises then: does consciousness really matter, is it just a byproduct of regular functioning of the brain that in itself does not have any function - or does it actually contribute something to the operation of our organism the subconscious alone is even theoretically incapable of performing?

    One could point at something like speech during which we are conscious - yet ChatGPT can speak very well too, and it does not appear to be conscious. Perhaps consciousness is something that we associate with speech, but in reality it works the other way around: we speak subconsciously, and consciousness then interprets that speech in a way convenient for our brain to process.

    My approach to these things is this: if we cannot perform experiments shedding light on it, then it is not something worth even thinking about. In other words, what consciousness is has no bearing on anything in practice. What we can do is talk about how we can think better, consciously or not.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 11
    You are using the word conscious,  as simply being aware. Or a habit, such as an unconscious task. I am not using the word in such a manner.  I am using it as our ego, our actual awareness
    Of self. Not outlr thoughts, or memories, but that little spark in your brain that is you, the life force of self. For lack of a better word, it is the observer part of your brain, the point of reference where you are behind all your thoughts,and actions. It is the part of you that watches your dreams at night, the part of you that is there as you look around sleepily in the moment you first wake up. @MayCaesar
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    What is "self"? 

    We are  just a bundle of perceptions, like links in a chain. To look for a unifying self beyond those perceptions is like looking for a chain apart from the links that constitute it.
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    try the follow ing experiment. dont worry if you are not good at it at first, just keep at it. go relax and stop all thought, all words from entering your head. every single one, every single word that attempts to say something. do not say halt or stop, do not let those words either. after awhile thoughts and words quiet down, yet keep trying to enter but you simply squash them. now tell me what part of you is stopping those thoughts? It is your self, the first impulse you were born with, the part of you that stays with you all of your life, regardless of all thoughts and ideas; for thoughts and ideas are by-products of this self. It is your control center and that is the part of you that can stop all of these thoughts. @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Yes Maxx I know all meditation I used to be Buddhist after leaving Catholicism.


    what part of you is stopping those thoughts? It is your self, the first impulse you were born with, the part of you that stays with you all of your life, regardless of all thoughts and ideas; for thoughts and ideas are by-products of this self. It is your control center and that is the part of you that can stop all of these thoughts. 

    I don't know what my first impulse was nor does anyone , you haven't said exactly what "part" stays with you.

    "Control centre" is self?  But what is " self"? Look at a photo of "yourself " from 20 years ago and tell me ars you the same self as then? If so how?

    What persists? 
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    you tell me. what part of you is stopping these thoughts? @Joeseph
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    You are using the word conscious,  as simply being aware. Or a habit, such as an unconscious task. I am not using the word in such a manner.  I am using it as our ego, our actual awareness
    Of self. Not outlr thoughts, or memories, but that little spark in your brain that is you, the life force of self. For lack of a better word, it is the observer part of your brain, the point of reference where you are behind all your thoughts,and actions. It is the part of you that watches your dreams at night, the part of you that is there as you look around sleepily in the moment you first wake up. @MayCaesar
    I am using it in the same sense scientists do. Your definition sounds like the ego from the Eastern philosophies and is a metaphor, not a real phenomenon. Eastern philosophies and spiritual practices have tried to disassociate the mind from the body for millennia, and it simply is impossible to do so: the mind is inseparable from the body, and there is no such thing as a part of me that is aware and everything else that is unaware. You cut off a part of my body - you change how I think ever so slightly.

    I prefer to talk about real and tangible concepts, not Buddhist metaphors.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    the actual self is not metacystic. do the little experiment oi asked dee to do and then explain to me what part of you is stopping all of these thoughts. It is your self, your ego, it is the part of your identity we are born with and is with you all your life. all thoughts and ideas simply arise in your brain "because' of it. The self is not the sum total of all your thoughts and ideas, that is simply how we think. We have that self when we are born; that spark or impulse that gives us awareness and identity. Just for a moment, erase and keep all thoughts from entering your head, all words. now what part of you is stopping these thoughts?  exactly what part of you has control over these thoughts and words you refuse to let into your head? @MayCaesar
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    **you tell me. what part of you is stopping these thoughts? **

    So stopping thoughts is self ,really?

    I don't know the exact biochemical / electrical process that stops thought you would need to ask a neuroscientist , calling it " self" is strange.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  

    I will just make it very clear that I have little patience for woo-woo stuff. The "ego", the "self"... The thread is about consciousness, which is the phenomenon of us apparently having this first-person perspective of the world. I am interested in what physical processes are responsible for this, whether this is just a way the brain conceptualizes the information it receives, or it is a real phenomenon on top of it. But I check out when I start hearing about these spiritual things.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    You do not have a sense of self? This is part of my topic,  for it is related.  @MayCaesar
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -  
    There is a point, or place within you, that appears to exercise control over all your actions,  ideas, and thoughts.  Apparently,  we have had that point all our lives. I call it a sense of self, or ego for lack of a better word. Let's say you have a bad habit , so that sense of self. That control point, is responsible for breaking it. You wake up in the night and groggily look around the room, no thoughts,  your sense of self is what sees the room and accesses it. We of course are not bornwith thoughts,  but we have something , a sense of self that is with us all our lives. It i is apart from our thoughts,  our memories,  for Apparently we can use it to control our thoughts,  and my suggestions is, it is what our consciousness actually is. @Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    That's way too Deepak Chopra for me Maxx but hey if that suits you no worries.
    MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    You do not have a sense of self? This is part of my topic,  for it is related.  @MayCaesar
    I am not sure what it would even mean to have one. "Self" is something we attach to a word to describe its reflexivity in us: "self-consciousness", for instance. To have a "self" sounds like broken English to me.
    Joesephjust_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    Let me try a different way, for after all, you being scientifically inclined should at least experiment. So let's do a little thought experiment. Assuming you are in a sensory deprived room and you feel, see, smell, or hear anything. Now assume for the duration, you can halt,l all thoughts, memories and emotions from entering yor head. Now do you somewhere feel you still have consciousness? Are you not aware of your self, some sort of feeling that is not a thought, or emotion, some sense of aware ness? And what part of you is still aware of it? Or if you want it in your terms, is the brain still aware of itself? @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    If I were able to do such a thing, I doubt I would be able to make any sense out of it - and there is no evidence that the brain can even theoretically function this way. I also do not understand when you talk about whatever it is you are trying to define as "part of me": are you talking about a phenomenon or a human body part?

    Your last question makes no sense to me. A brain is just an organ. It is not a living being that can be "aware" of anything.

    I know you like to redefine commonly used words (although I do not know why), but in this case even what you are trying to define is unclear to me.
    just_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    Are you not aware right now? You agree we can halt our thoughts and still be aware, and I am sure you can keep emotions from happening if you just say around, so with our emotions and thoughts, in which both you block, you are still aware, even blind and deaf people still have conscioisness and aware ness. All we are doing is taking away the rest of your perceptions. You are in such a room and you are not try to make sense of anything. Just want to know if your brain is still functioning to the point of reason.in other  words,  you could still make decisions if you wanted to, correct? You could suddenly start thinking again and leave the room, but what part of the brain makes that decision to begin thinking again.  @MayCaesar
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    Are you not aware right now? You agree we can halt our thoughts and still be aware, and I am sure you can keep emotions from happening if you just say around, so with our emotions and thoughts, in which both you block, you are still aware, even blind and deaf people still have conscioisness and aware ness. All we are doing is taking away the rest of your perceptions. You are in such a room and you are not try to make sense of anything. Just want to know if your brain is still functioning to the point of reason. Oops scratch this reply and see one above. . @MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    No, I do not know what it means to halt one's thoughts. How can I know that I am aware if I cannot think about whether I am aware?

    In my understanding, consciousness is inseparable from intelligence. You express the viewpoint similar to that of Eastern mystics who see the "self" as some separate entity, some kind of "soul" extraneous to the body, and to me this is pure fantasy.

    The practice I engage in is acceptance of my thoughts and feelings: for example, when I run a hard event and feel a lot of pain and my chatterbox is telling me to quit the race, I do not fight these things and just keep going, letting them flow. Unlike the mystics though, I do not pretend that something supernatural is happening here: this is just a convenient way for my mind to conceptualize this things. In the end, it is all just chemical reactions.
    Factfinderjust_sayin
  • maxxmaxx 1186 Pts   -   edited July 12
    Seriously? You never halted your thoughts,  just forced yourself to stop thinking as long as possible? By this i mean to cease all words from occurringin your brain. Well, if not, many can do it. I am sure before language,  whatever paseed for humans lived without thinking and acted on association.  However, if you never achieved it during runners high, where you plod along with out any inner voices, well...ok.however, you are the scientist, why don't you test it out. You can tell when you're thinking, just stop the thought, after awhile you get good at it, and the thoughts become almost dormant, and you can trace the actual impulse that wants to force the thought in. @MayCaesar
  • JoesephJoeseph 1259 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

     In the end, it is all just chemical reactions.


    Spot on , it's pretty obvious isn't it?
    MayCaesarFactfinder
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6678 Pts   -  

    I thought initially that this was going to be about science. Now I am trapped engaged in a weird conversation about Eastern spiritual practices that I have very little interest in. If you think that thoughts can only involve words, then your mind must be working very differently from mine, for in my case thoughts can involve visual images, sounds, abstract concepts that cannot be easily put into words and so on.

    I still have no idea what you mean by "consciousness". This conversation reminds me of listening to Jordan Peterson's answers to the question, "Does god exists?" You can listen to his 40-minute speech, and at the end you still have no idea what the answer is, or what he even means by "god". I like dealing with concrete, well-defined concepts. When I have to go to great lengths to drag out enough information from someone to just start understanding what they are talking about, then I quickly lose interest.

    Here is my simple definition: "Consciousness is the first-world perspective an intelligent being experiences". Clear, concise, and everyone (I hope) knows what I am talking about.
    What is yours?
    just_sayin
  • 773322773322 46 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: I thought initially that this was going to be about science

    To me eastern or western practices of mediation are an expression and a byproduct of consciousness so being open to this may evolve in to a deeper understanding.  I am looking at it like this,   Where is the one asking the question located? and does this one have form?Ramana Maharshi practiced this method.
    @MayCaesar
  • 773322773322 46 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Let me ask you a very simple question that no one has an answer to. Suppose I build a sophisticated artificial intelligence that matches humans in the ability to generally reason, but is made of microchips rather than organic matter. Will it have consciousness?

    A sophisticated  AI  intelligence doesn't have the fear of death so whatever solution it arrives at is flawed in so many ways. It also doesnt experience joy or sadness.  @MayCaesar
  • BarnardotBarnardot 692 Pts   -  
    @maxx ;This energy however is in all matter, including rocks and trees, plants, and so on, yet this type of matter in not capable of using this energy for they lack a brain or receiver to do so. 

    I think your trying to over simplify things to much. If I can make an analogy think about say garlic. If you over simplify it you can say that there is some thing in it thats good for you. But if you analize the hole thing of course garlic is real bad for you.

    So it is over simplifying things to say that the same energy in rocks is the same energy thats in your brain. 

    But the irony is that the brain is very simple and the scientists are right. It is just a system of neurons transmitting very small electric pulses. And there is nothing to complicated about that. Computer chips do the same thing and the eneergy they use is from plugging the computer in to a wall socket. So with our brain it gets energy from burning food. Some food like garlic though could cause a serious malfunction just like computers, trash in trash out. 

    just_sayin
  • BarnardotBarnardot 692 Pts   -  
    @773322 ; It also doesnt experience joy or sadness. 

    I think that your making an assumption there. How do you know that?

    Beer in mind that joy and sadness in animals is just chemical reactions that react with neurons and receptors. For example you go for a run and your body produces adrenalin and hormones that make your heart beat faster and react with nerves to produce a ffeling that we call being elated. The thing with AI is that they are all ready starting to build brains that have much more capacity and capability than a human brain. So wait for it. They will proberly experience more joy and sadness than humans ever have.

    just_sayin
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